Tactic Building Advice

[MattyWillo10]

Hi All,

I am having trouble creating a balanced tactic, in my 2nd season with Leeds in the Championship, 1st season didn't go so well, first half of the season I went with 4-2-3-1 I was scoring goals but conceding more than Kevin Keegans Newcastle side. I was languishing among relegation.

I decided to go back to the drawing board and look at where the goals where coming from, upon inspection there were 3 key areas, through balls via playmaker to fast forward, crosses to the back post from out wide and corners.

I ended up going with a 5-3-1-1 (apologies for the lack of screenshots at the moment as I am at work), Fluid, Standard, Short Passing, Work Ball into Box, Low Tempo

GK

FB CB CB CB FB

(Support) (Defend) (Cover) (Defend) (Support)

BBM BWM BBM

(Support) (Defend) (Support)

AP

(Support)

AF

(Attack)

This seemed to stop the rot for a short time, cutting out 90% of the through balls I was conceding from, but the issue still stood for crosses and corners (the amount of crosses being put in by the opposition had been reduced, but the ones that were still coming in where going to a free attacker at the back post for a tap in). I ended up finishing 11th 10 point of playoffs. In the summer I was taken over and given a warchest of £15 million for the championship which I was delighted with as the mad Italian Massimo Cellino had originally quoted me £3 million budget.

As scoring goals was still a problem I decided I was going to spend a chunk of my budget on "guaranteed goals" and bought Jordan Rhodes for £8.5 million. Preseason went down fine winning majority of the games comfortably and the team playing the was I expected, i'm currently 5 games into the season with 1 win, 3 draws and 2 losses. The games I lost were due to crosses and set plays ago (Jurgen Klopp I know how you feel) and the draws seemed to be an inefficiency to put chances away, Majority of possession and shots.

I am wondering should I look at recreating a new tactic? or can I mold the existing one into a more attacking hybrid whilst keeping what defensive stability I have?

I'm not expecting any answers that will fix all my problems, but if anyone can suggest anything or any specific posts that I can review as the internet is a huge place to search for informative FM articles that I can relate to.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks

[RTHerringbone]

Are the MCs all BBMs? The middle is listed as a BBW - do you mean BWM?

Crosses will continue to be an issue, as ~40% of goals conceded in real life come from this source, and you only have one man on each flank, so unless the outer MCs are getting across the pitch well, the first real confrontation with an AI wide player will be from the full backs, which may be too little, too late.

Regarding set pieces - have you done anything to change the default settings?

In terms of attack, you are sorely limited in my opinion. On Standard you'll have limited attacking width from the full backs, so your movement is very central. You have two BBMs flanking the AP (who won't be a real "in the box" player), so the AF is really isolated as again, the BBMs won't really advance quickly enough to offer him a passing option. I imagine you end up taking quite a few long shots.

[MattyWillo10]

Are the MCs all BBMs? The middle is listed as a BBW - do you mean BWM?

Middle midfielder of the 3 is a Ball Winning Midfielder

Crosses will continue to be an issue, as ~40% of goals conceded in real life come from this source, and you only have one man on each flank, so unless the outer MCs are getting across the pitch well, the first real confrontation with an AI wide player will be from the full backs, which may be too little, too late.

I have seen this stat a few times, its not something I wouldn't expect especially in the Championship (less technically proficient teams in comparison to the Premier League, less intricate Tiki Taka passing more wide and direct football) but its the exact same cross that I cant seem to deal with as a team. You encountered anything like this?

Regarding set pieces - have you done anything to change the default settings?

Yes I have tried bringing everyone back but that lead to the ball being recycled and sent wide to be crossed in then goal, currently I have my 3 tallest & best jumping/heading players on mark tall player, full backs on the posts and 3 players spread across the goal marking zonally and a player on the edge of the box, still no difference. Issue on attacking set pieces has lead me to think about changes to that also to just play short and keep hold of the ball and I never win a head from a corner anyway.

In terms of attack, you are sorely limited in my opinion. On Standard you'll have limited attacking width from the full backs, so your movement is very central. You have two BBMs flanking the AP (who won't be a real "in the box" player), so the AF is really isolated as again, the BBMs won't really advance quickly enough to offer him a passing option. I imagine you end up taking quite a few long shots.

Yes, even though I have work into the box as a TI I do see a lot of wayward pot shots at goal from the edge of the box, and full backs who get up to support will never put the ball across the box even when its calling out for it. I presume this is due to the TI though, but didn't want to take it off in case it introduced even more long shots.

Any suggestions? possible formation tweaks? TI/PI adjustments?

Thanks

[poma]

GK ​GK-D "distribute to fullbacks"

D® WB-S "Stay wider"

D(CR) CD-D

D(CL) CD-D

D(L) WB-S "Stay wider"

M(CR) DLP-S

M(CL) CM-D

AM® IF-S "close down more, roam from position, sit narrower"

AM© AP-A "roam from position"

AM(L) IF-S "close down more, get further forward, roam from position, sit narrower

ST© CF-S "close down more"

Mentality: "control"

Team shape: "flexible"

Team instructions: "shorter passing, work ball into box, whipped crosses, close down more, higher tempo, dribble less"

Additional instructions: "slightly higher (defensive line), use offside trap"

[MattyWillo10]

GK ​GK-D "distribute to fullbacks"

D® WB-S "Stay wider"

D(CR) CD-D

D(CL) CD-D

D(L) WB-S "Stay wider"

M(CR) DLP-S

M(CL) CM-D

AM® IF-S "close down more, roam from position, sit narrower"

AM© AP-A "roam from position"

AM(L) IF-S "close down more, get further forward, roam from position, sit narrower

ST© CF-S "close down more"

Mentality: "control"

Team shape: "flexible"

Team instructions: "shorter passing, work ball into box, whipped crosses, close down more, higher tempo, dribble less"

Will the close down more TI not pull the back 4 unit out of shape when defending?

[poma]

Will the close down more TI not pull the back 4 unit out of shape when defending?

No, not for me So far very stable at the back.

[summatsupeer]

Bare in mind that tactic might not suit your players, there are no real "plug and play" tactics, players are to important and the balance of tactics is better (possession tactics were too strong in past versions imo).

I'm guessing the 4231 was with 2 central midfielders and not defensive midfielders? If so then going from a very attacking formation to a very defensive 5311 was a huge shift.

I would:

1. Assess your squads defensive strengths / weaknesses; Is it small so weak to crosses/set pieces? Is it slow so weak to higher lines? Is it poor marking/positioning so even if sat deep attackers will find space? Is your team not hard working or low stamina so cant press all game?

2. Assess your squads attacking strengths / weaknesses; What type of goal are your forwards good at scoring? Can your players create that type of chance?

Try to minimize your weaknesses and maximize your strengths through your tactic + replacing players if possible so they suit your chosen style.

If you wanted to go back to a 4231 style then consider a 4411 which with attacking wide players will look more like a 4231 when you have the ball but will provide more protection to your full backs to prevent crosses. You can do pretty much any style of football from a 4141 or 4411.

I have not done a 3 center back tactic this year so can't really help too much there.

[RTHerringbone]

You encountered anything like this?

I concede anything from 20% - 35% of my goals from crosses on FM. It doesn't bother me particularly. I can understand why the whole crossing thing irks players, but it's less a ME flaw than a graphical representation issue. People will scoff at this, but the route to goal is valid. In an ideal world, SI would be able to get the far post defender launching at the ball to try to block / clear it, but the absolute goal count from that source would still stay the same. It's a perception thing, and I'm quite pragmatic about such things.

Any suggestions? possible formation tweaks? TI/PI adjustments?

You need to attack more as I can't see goals in that system. When you've seen you concede from a certain source, it's easy to get sucked into going overboard trying to address the issue. What is the context. In your last complete season, how many did you score and concede in the league?

I looked at the PL table last night and saw that in general terms, the top clubs score two per game and concede one. In the Championship, the most prolific team has scored just 1.6 per game, and the best defence has conceded just 0.5 goals per game. These are low numbers, but they show (in the PL especially) that you will always concede, and you won't necessarily rack up loads of goals. Sometimes we all need to remember that when seeing how our teams fare in FM.

[herne79]

In the 5311 tactic, are the left and right backs defined as Fullbacks or Wingbacks? If "Fullbacks" I'm not sure with a support duty they'd offer enough going forwards.

And why is a 4231 suddenly being discussed?

[summatsupeer]

Because he started with a 4231 then went to 5311.

I am having trouble creating a balanced tactic, in my 2nd season with Leeds in the Championship, 1st season didn't go so well, first half of the season I went with 4-2-3-1 I was scoring goals but conceding more than Kevin Keegans Newcastle side. I was languishing among relegation.

[MattyWillo10]

Bare in mind that tactic might not suit your players, there are no real "plug and play" tactics, players are to important and the balance of tactics is better (possession tactics were too strong in past versions imo)

Plug and Play is not something I want, as I want a self of pride that something I developed albeit with some managerial advice worked rather than taking someones hard work and using it as my own.

I'm guessing the 4231 was with 2 central midfielders and not defensive midfielders? If so then going from a very attacking formation to a very defensive 5311 was a huge shift.

The 2 central midfielders were jack of all trades so could perform in both roles defensive and attacking. I will upload some squad screenshots and play screenshots later on when i'm home

I would:

1. Assess your squads defensive strengths / weaknesses; Is it small so weak to crosses/set pieces? Is it slow so weak to higher lines? Is it poor marking/positioning so even if sat deep attackers will find space? Is your team not hard working or low stamina so cant press all game?

2. Assess your squads attacking strengths / weaknesses; What type of goal are your forwards good at scoring? Can your players create that type of chance?

This is something I felt I did over the some, addresses couple issues, height and pace at the back, signed Joe Gomes & Papy Djilobodji (Marking and Positioning were still good level for championship). I love to play a fast paced pressing game similar to that of Klopp's Dortmund or Simeone's Athletico, but everytime I try I seem to give up too much defensive structure, need to do some more research.

Try to minimize your weaknesses and maximize your strengths through your tactic + replacing players if possible so they suit your chosen style.

If you wanted to go back to a 4231 style then consider a 4411 which with attacking wide players will look more like a 4231 when you have the ball but will provide more protection to your full backs to prevent crosses. You can do pretty much any style of football from a 4141 or 4411.

I have not done a 3 center back tactic this year so can't really help too much there.

I hate the idea of playing 3 at the back as I feel like I am going against every attacking bone in my body, it was just something that worked in a time when I was shipping goals. If I could move away from it but keep same defensive strength I would happily.

[MattyWillo10]

In the 5311 tactic, are the left and right backs defined as Fullbacks or Wingbacks? If "Fullbacks" I'm not sure with a support duty they'd offer enough going forwards.

And why is a 4231 suddenly being discussed?

They are defined as Fullbacks on Support duty, in the games I have watched they have no problem getting up and down and providing the width for the team, but creation of chances from them arent near they numbers I would expect as for championship level I have probably got the two best fullbacks in the league.

I think the 4-2-3-1 idea has been put forward to address the attacking flaws in my formation maybe?

[MattyWillo10]

I concede anything from 20% - 35% of my goals from crosses on FM. It doesn't bother me particularly. I can understand why the whole crossing thing irks players, but it's less a ME flaw than a graphical representation issue. People will scoff at this, but the route to goal is valid. In an ideal world, SI would be able to get the far post defender launching at the ball to try to block / clear it, but the absolute goal count from that source would still stay the same. It's a perception thing, and I'm quite pragmatic about such things.

You need to attack more as I can't see goals in that system. When you've seen you concede from a certain source, it's easy to get sucked into going overboard trying to address the issue. What is the context. In your last complete season, how many did you score and concede in the league?

Okay I see your point here, I will check to see the stats against crosses when I get home and post them for review, if its within that 20%-30% margin then I will accept it as it is.

I looked at the PL table last night and saw that in general terms, the top clubs score two per game and concede one. In the Championship, the most prolific team has scored just 1.6 per game, and the best defence has conceded just 0.5 goals per game. These are low numbers, but they show (in the PL especially) that you will always concede, and you won't necessarily rack up loads of goals. Sometimes we all need to remember that when seeing how our teams fare in FM.

Thinking on it after all the reviewing of stats I did last night I don't think I looked at the most obvious ones (for & against) I think I've probably become too obsessed with the type of goal I am conceding rather than the amount, I will post these also when I get home.

[summatsupeer]

This is something I felt I did over the some, addresses couple issues, height and pace at the back, signed Joe Gomes & Papy Djilobodji (Marking and Positioning were still good level for championship). I love to play a fast paced pressing game similar to that of Klopp's Dortmund or Simeone's Athletico, but everytime I try I seem to give up too much defensive structure, need to do some more research.

I read a good blog on that style: https://derfm.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/schwaben-power-1-tactic-part-3/

I don't agree with some absolute statements he makes but I think its a good guide to what you need for that pressing style to work.

[MattyWillo10]

I read a good blog on that style: https://derfm.wordpress.com/2016/01/25/schwaben-power-1-tactic-part-3/

I don't agree with some absolute statements he makes but I think its a good guide to what you need for that pressing style to work.

Thanks, read through that blog on my lunch, really good read. Definitely echo's the #1 way of playing I would like to recreate

[Rashidi]

Hi All,

I am wondering should I look at recreating a new tactic? or can I mold the existing one into a more attacking hybrid whilst keeping what defensive stability I have?

You can definitely modify an existing systen into a hyrbid of another. And if the majority of roles/shape stay the same, the team doesn't take long to master the tactic. I've been chopping and changing my tactics with Torino this whole season on the "Torino Diaries" and I've shown that its easy to do this.