Can you help a struggling fellow player with tactic insights?

[ricki.bertolino]

Hi,

I'm having lots of difficulties getting into this game because I struggle to get consistency from my team. I've been playing this game since the old CM days, but I've been struggling a lot since last year version (FM15). Last year was the first time that I could not get my tactics to work; I did few starts and then I abandoned the game all together.

I'd like to give some background on where I am, but I don't want to keep it too long:

• I've being playing FMC15 version last year, and FMT16 this year, both tablet versions (getting old, I don't have much time to play with family and all)
  
• I've read Cleo's Art of Possession, Art of Counterattacking and the latest 'First 15 minutes' threads - all excellent readings
  
• I've read Cleo's 'How to break down organized defenses' blog (don't recall the exact title)
  
• I've read both 'Line and Diamonds' and 'Pairs & Combinations' guide
  
• I'm on my 5th start this year, and still I'm struggling
  

Now, the question on everyone lips is: 'How can you suck so much after all that reading?'. I know, I'm surprised too; after each reading I'm like 'I know what I did wrong...', then I try something different but still I can't get good results. I'm puzzled how bad I am considering I was doing really good on FM14 and before, but this year I'm determined not to give up until I learn this game.

My first question is: is it possible to win at this game without watching full matches?

To be honest I would l love to see full matches, but it is not possible in the tablet version, and in most of the threads that I read, comments and observations are made based on full matches. I know that I could get FMT for PC, but this kind of defy the point of having a tablet version. Beside I just don't have the time to play on PC, I can only play on the go (lunch breaks) or in breaks around the house.

Second: I'd like to show you my current start and tactics and get some insights of experience players.

I'm currently Arezzo in Serie C Italy. I've played 10 matches and this is the situation:

As you can see it is not too good. My biggest win came from 2 set pieces, 1 penalty; beside that I only have one more win and one dull draw. This is the tactic that I've been used so far:

And this are the TI:

I don't have any PI set.

The idea behind the tactic is to keep possession and to get combination between the IF and the DLF or the DLF and the W (supplying crosses). The DLF is a good header and a fair passer, but with poor vision.

The AP should be the focus of passes and the CM should provide support. The Right FB should give with on the right where the IF is operating while the Left FB should support the midfield.

On defense we should display on a flat 4-1-4-1 with the DCM Anchor Man filling holes when a CM or a DC goes pressing.

Defensively hasn't been as bad as the results say; I've conceded mostly on set pieces and on penalties (4 so far). I don't concede many CCC, but I get goals from the wings mainly.

My main issue is that I struggle to create good changes. Initially I set up this tactic with Counter as mentality and no TI; I then evolved on more possession style because I wasn't getting many shots. Now I get more shots, but they are not good ones; most shots get blocked by defenders.

I can't seem to get my team to create good chances on a consistent basis, and this has been my biggest issue since my first play through.

If you care to give your opinion it would be much appreciated.

Thanks,

Ricki

[summatsupeer]

My first question is: is it possible to win at this game without watching full matches?

Yes, its just easier to watch what is happening as they you have a better idea of why it is happening. If you cannot see why its happening then you have to make assumptions based off of stats and resort to trial and error when there are lots of other factors that make it very hard to tell if it was a good change or not.

To be honest I would l love to see full matches, but it is not possible in the tablet version

I don't play the tablet version so not sure what you have available to analyse why things are happening?

The idea behind the tactic is to keep possession and to get combination between the IF and the DLF or the DLF and the W (supplying crosses). The DLF is a good header and a fair passer, but with poor vision.

The AP should be the focus of passes and the CM should provide support. The Right FB should give with on the right where the IF is operating while the Left FB should support the midfield.

On defense we should display on a flat 4-1-4-1 with the DCM Anchor Man filling holes when a CM or a DC goes pressing.

I'm not sure how much your W-S will be providing due to Dribbling Less, Work Ball Into Box and Retain Possession. If you can't watch what he does do you have statistics of what he's doing?

On Standard Mentality + Retain Possession + Work Ball Into Box I think your might be making your players wait for high percentage plays that might never come due to player quality at lower levels. That's my assumption that your Serie C team won't have the technique to pass the ball around consistently?

Defensively hasn't been as bad as the results say; I've conceded mostly on set pieces and on penalties (4 so far). I don't concede many CCC, but I get goals from the wings mainly.

My main issue is that I struggle to create good changes. Initially I set up this tactic with Counter as mentality and no TI; I then evolved on more possession style because I wasn't getting many shots. Now I get more shots, but they are not good ones; most shots get blocked by defenders.

I can't seem to get my team to create good chances on a consistent basis, and this has been my biggest issue since my first play through.

Maybe you weren't patient enough with the counter tactic? Why did you not get many shots? Were the players just on poor form? Did they not suit the style of play?

[herne79]

is it possible to win at this game without watching full matches?

Yes it is possible, and seeing as you mention Cleon's "The First 15 Minutes" thread you already know why:- just watch the first 15 minutes, not the full match .

In terms of your tactic, I don't think you are a million miles away. Despite loses, you mention your defence is ok, however you are perhaps being a little over cautious in attack.

Who is getting forward in support? Your left winger is primarily staying wide, the AP(s) is sitting in the hole looking to pass, and your CM(s) is sitting in midfield. Which leaves your DLF and IF manfully trying to score but probably getting a little out numbered.

The flanks and striker seem ok to me, I'd look to get a midfield runner further upfield in support. Perhaps something along the lines of changing the AP(s) to a CM(a) or BBM. If you still want a playmaker role, change the CM(s) to a DLP(s). The rest of the system is probably sound enough to be able to cope with one (or both) of those changes.

Try things out. Watch the first 15 mins and see how the different midfield roles look.

[Draakon]

Things I notice:

1) You don't want to play early crosses, but DL is on support duty. What should he do, just pass the ball short? Can't he cross or dribble at all?

2) Why use anchor man as DMC? He doesn't look very suitable for this role, and with standard mentality, possession-oriented tactics it doesn't look like a best role. Try DMC-support for example

Your main problem seems to be inability to score. How many chances have you created in those past games? To be a little bit more attacking:

3) You should have at least two attacking players up front. I'd suggest left winger + AP (attack) from midfield to provide attacks from deep. CM-support next to AP is OK, although I use BBM-support (but BBM demands high work rate and stamina and such player might not be available)

4) Remove 'dribble less' TI.

[RTHerringbone]

To me it seems like you've implemented the Duty allocation from Cleon's counter thread, but without the Mentality, and that's why you lack cutting edge. I would suggest you either look to incorporate one or two more Attack Duties, or you look to bump the overall Team Mentality.

[ricki.bertolino]

Thanks for all your replies, appreciated.

Yes, its just easier to watch what is happening as they you have a better idea of why it is happening. If you cannot see why its happening then you have to make assumptions based off of stats and resort to trial and error when there are lots of other factors that make it very hard to tell if it was a good change or not.

Yes it is possible, and seeing as you mention Cleon's "The First 15 Minutes" thread you already know why:- just watch the first 15 minutes, not the full match .

I think you misunderstood me. Since I'm playing with the tablet version, I don't have the 'Full Match' option; my best option is 'Comprehensive Highlights'. This means that I can't watch any part of a full match, unless I buy the PC version and use Cross Save option. I don't really want to do that as I can mainly play on the go.

I guess I could rephrase my question as: "Is it possible to have success in the tablet version of this game, despite the limitation that you don't have the 'Full Match' view option on the ME?"

I'm not sure how much your W-S will be providing due to Dribbling Less, Work Ball Into Box and Retain Possession. If you can't watch what he does do you have statistics of what he's doing?

From watching the highlights, he still dribbles enough (PI is dribble more by default), however I can see him more in the box than on the flank, with the FB supplying more crosses than him.

On Standard Mentality + Retain Possession + Work Ball Into Box I think your might be making your players wait for high percentage plays that might never come due to player quality at lower levels. That's my assumption that your Serie C team won't have the technique to pass the ball around consistently?

That's my feeling on what's happening (from the limited highlights that I can see). I often see my team passing from centre to flanks, then back on centre, then change of side, trying to find space. My wide players (almost always my FBs), seem to to take too much time to cross, endind up in being blocked. Other times I see my players losing possession due to, I believe, eccessive passing.

My AP is the best passer, and the MC has also a good stat for passing + vision (for the level I'm at). My FBs on the other hands are better at crossing than passing.

1) You don't want to play early crosses, but DL is on support duty. What should he do, just pass the ball short? Can't he cross or dribble at all?

Actually my FBs come on the opponent 3/4 on a regular basis, and they tend to cross from the last 3rd (flanks to the penalty area); however they tend to be slow in crossing and they get either blocked or they pass in the penalty area

2) Why use anchor man as DMC? He doesn't look very suitable for this role, and with standard mentality, possession-oriented tactics it doesn't look like a best role. Try DMC-support for example

The idea is that it stregthen the defence if we lose the ball or when we are in the defensive shape. Anchor man tend to keep the position more than a DM. I'm trying to get a solid defence while having good possession, but I think I'm asking to much from my players.

3) You should have at least two attacking players up front. I'd suggest left winger + AP (attack) from midfield to provide attacks from deep. CM-support next to AP is OK, although I use BBM-support (but BBM demands high work rate and stamina and such player might not be available)

4) Remove 'dribble less' TI.

I've tried that, however attacking minded players tend to stay quite forward with my set up, and therefore they have no room for runs; I choose more support because I want to get more runs from deep, but this is not happening

To me it seems like you've implemented the Duty allocation from Cleon's counter thread, but without the Mentality, and that's why you lack cutting edge. I would suggest you either look to incorporate one or two more Attack Duties, or you look to bump the overall Team Mentality.

Actually it looks more like the allocation of Cleon's possession thread, or better a mixture of both . Yeah, I started with a counter attack thread, and I inspired from Cleo's thread, but then I noticed that teams in my division didn't commit too much on attack and therefore I had not many counter attack chances.

I then tried to go more possession oriented but keep many support roles to avoid having players too far ahead and with no room to move when the opponent is parking the bus.

[kpsia518]

i have an idea here:

just a idea.

[ricki.bertolino]

i have an idea here:

just a idea.

Thanks. I've read that thread before and I saw your tactics, however my team doesn't have the quality that your team does. I'd rather to stick with a more defensive approach.

[kpsia518]

Thanks. I've read that thread before and I saw your tactics, however my team doesn't have the quality that your team does. I'd rather to stick with a more defensive approach.

that 4123 is not my tactic,the pic just for example for Martial role.

you team didn't have that quality,but you still can get full par duty for all player.

my key point is full par duty for all player,8~9 par for those who didn;t have full par duty.

1st step,search you best 11,even you play weak team,you still got best 11 in you team.

2nd step,search for full par duty for all player.what full par duty means ? its mean the player can do the best in this job.

3rd step,after you get all full par duty for all player,then now we can thinking about how we should play with this kind of job.

4th step,fix the error if we see any conflict in the setup.For example,you may see 5~6 AP-attack role in some team,then we should fix it.

5th leave the PI empty,set it up in the highlight match.

6th play some month,you tactic will almost done.

7th after you tactic all stable,you may plug & change any player duty at any time,but you must know why you suddenly change the player duty.

[Overmars]

To me it seems like you've implemented the Duty allocation from Cleon's counter thread, but without the Mentality, and that's why you lack cutting edge. I would suggest you either look to incorporate one or two more Attack Duties, or you look to bump the overall Team Mentality.

I agree with this suggestion. More attack duties would enable your players to actually try to score goals instead of keeping the ball for the sake of keeping the ball.

Who are your best offensive players? Who can get you some goals? Who is your passing/vision guru? Those are the guys you need to funnel your attacks through. If your DLF really isn't great at facilitating others then it's going to be tough to succeed in a one-striker tacdtic where he has to facilitate others. Get your players doing what they do best, and make sure some of those things are focused on scoring/creating goals.

[ricki.bertolino]

Thanks again for all your contributions.

I sadly have to announce that I was sacked by Arezzo's Board in November. I didn't manage to improve my results and I understand that I had to leave for the benefit of the team; I was under-performing after all.

Never mind, I took few (in-game) week off and then when the opportunity arose, I applied (successfully) to Robur Siena job; the team militates in the same division as Arezzo. Armed only with the limited experience in Arezzo and with your suggestions, I took a different approach.

Firstly I assessed the squad and this time I payed attention more to physical and mental attributes rather than technical attributes; my choice being that in Serie C technical players are limited, and it looks to me that being hard worker and determined, along with strength and pace, counts more than a lazy technical player. I then choose a boring-but-never-out-of-fashion 4-4-2 formation as it suited my players, and finally I decided to cure the defensive aspect first and point to fastest attacks instead of useless tiki-taka.

This is the result:

The only TI: closed down more.

All my defensive line have 15+ work rate (FB only exception with 13) and so my wingers (which are both natural WB); on top of that they have good teamwork and determination, coupled with decent to good physical attributes. My midfield has in Massimo the best passer while Burrai is very strong and determined, and by best forwards complete the starting 11.

The idea is to have a solid defense, with both wingers tracking down and protect on crosses, with also both CMs helping on defense. On offense we rely on counter attacks and we tend not to keep the ball too much but try medium / long passes to move the ball. Closing down more help increase the rhythm slightly while allows us to challenge for the all higher in the pitch.

The results didn't wait to show; while we are seeing less on the ball than my Arezzo team, we create better chances and the defense line is very strong and disciplined. These are my results to date:

I took over from Carrarese game (05/12/2015); so far 7 wins, 2 draws and only one loss! Lot's of clean sheets and we are scoring goals regularly. The cherry on top is that I also beat my former team; that's always give you a special feeling

I guess that I could have done better at Ferrara against Spal if I changed my approach slighly (like remove close down more and put my LM on Support) instead of keeping as it is, as Spal is the best team in the league.

Thanks again to all, your comments really made me think. A special thanks to rashidi1 for his Shape mentality and the theory of relativity as it really made me understand relation between mentality and shape and understand how to set roles better.

I'm now in my best game so far and I'm enjoying this game much more; I'm feeling that I start to understand and I'm more confident in trying my own things. I know that I have much more work to do to get to the top, but I'm determined in going from strength to strength and use negative moment as moment of reflection on how to improve.

Happy FM to all

[davidnio_422]

Great to hear youre enjoying it more, especially beating Arezzo! Your new system is not too dissimilar to mine except I use a BWM and a DMs covering with only 1 forward.

[iamneallyons]

Just come across this thread, firstly i would say your initial setup was FAR to restrictive - you only had one player on attack and even then he would have had to make up a lot of space to be effective coming from such a deep position.

Being standard/Flexible - your not being one or the other and at the same time are never going to really be decisive - if you read the standard mentality its description does say "it enables a manager to assess the match situation before switching to to a more specialised plan" or something along those lines, its a good starting mentality but i dont think its ever going to be a great mentality to use for a full match - because the AI will adapt and either frustrate you because your not risky enough or nail you because your blAse in your approach.

Try to understand how the team shape works to, if your going for a more fluid approach - your defence will stay closer to your midfielder and midfield closer to your attack and they will all try to get involved in the build up, in defence the team will be closer together and retreat as a unit... Where as a more structured team, defence will just defend and they tend to sit back as your midfield/attack moves up the pitch together, when they lose the ball the midfield will then attempt to get back and defend but the attack wont... All this can be manipulated by roles and player instructions obviously.

Another thing to consider with shape is how many specialist roles you have in your side, the more specialist roles you have the more structure you want to your team IE the more structure the more the players will focus on the specific roles you have given them to do.

Hope this somewhat helps you.