Trying to re-create the 4-4-2 (rough) Diamond with Liverpool...

[AllRed]

After recently getting back in to FM after a few years away, thought pick it back up again and see how I get on, its changed a touch but fundamentally its the same game with the noticeable tweak of 'Shouts' now being inclusive in your tactics.

So for my first save I kind of rushed into the season a bit and before the last pre-season game settled on a giving a 4-4-2 diamond a go. Now clearly there is no Sterling, Suarez or Sturridge available due to various reasons, plus I decided against making many signings. My first mistake was not implement the tactics from the off in pre-season and then I sent Origi out on alone without realising he would have actually come in very handy! So here's what I'm dealing with..

So far mixed results, pumped by Chelsea away with Costa heading anything in from everywhere, hard-fought away win 1-0 @ Arsenal with a lovely counter-attacking goal, beaten well @ Palace & Villa by a couple to nil, tight home wins without being fantastic and the Europa league victories have been comfortable.

The tactical instructions as follows..

I'd like more penetration through the middle but feel 'Looking for Overlap allows the fullbacks to push on and give the option out wide, although I'm sure how much this stunts my players instruction to exploit the middle, has anyone played this formation successfully with a less than stellar cast of players? I'm aware some better signings could improve the team but I'm hoping to see what its like when I get Sturridge back, which I would have now but he pulled his back in the weights room 3 days after returning to training and is out for another 3-4 weeks

Apologies if the images are huge, not sure how to downsize them. I'll try and add a bit more info when I've time later.

Thanks.

[Cleon]

Using the look for overlap shout is pointless as you have no-one for the fullbacks to overlap because you don't use wide players. It basically becomes redundant.

[mc40]

how many goals are you conceding to crosses? especially to the far post.

[iamneallyons]

Using the look for overlap shout is pointless as you have no-one for the fullbacks to overlap because you don't use wide players. It basically becomes redundant.

surely it doesnt, because look for the overlap means look for the wingbacks who are giving width to the team by getting forward?

[AllRed]

Right well, I've played a few games tonight and took off the overlap and have created quite a few good chances in the last 3 games, albeit beating Bournemouth 4-0 and Red Star 2-0 at home, who aren't the greatest of opposition and it coincided with Sturridge coming back into the side who was involved in creating a couple of the goals due to great movement. The fullbacks are still getting forward but I've restricted Moreno to a FB/support role and Clyne Fullback/attack.

I did however get taken apart spectacularly by Leicester 4-0, although I'd been messing around with a separate beforehand and had stupidly forgot to set the instructions back!! Plus after a Europa game, I'd also left Toure & Gomez in central defence without realising and Vardy caused mayhem till half time when I saw the balls up, though Sakho got ripped apart when he came on anyway. But to answer the question every goal Leicester scored was a cross of some sort, the first 2 were low crosses sidefooted in due to defenders being behind the play and the other 2 were just space in the box for 2 headers. As I say it took me till I was 2-0 down to fix my instructions and re-group, players heads had gone by then and we barely got a sniff anyway.

The game against Chelsea was similar with Willian and Costa terrorrising my defence. Willian, no matter how I tried to deal with him kept skinning Moreno or finding space and putting crosses in which they scored off 3 times (the other a header off a corner) and even when I man marked Costa he scored 2 headers whilst surrounded by 2 CB's.

I'm going to stick with this for the next games and see where I'm at and give an update. I'm sure undecided on my midfield roles though. Whether to go with Henderson (BBM/s) & Emre Can (DLP/s) or BBM and a CM/auto...?

[herne79]

surely it doesnt, because look for the overlap means look for the wingbacks who are giving width to the team by getting forward?

No, it tells your wingers (not the midfielders) to sit a bit narrower and hold the ball up to wait for a fullback to overlap them. So if you don't have wingers there is no need to use it.

[Overmars]

If you like the diamond shape, I would suggest giving a 4-1-3-2 or a 4-3-1-2 a try. The reason is because stringing three midfielders in a line will space them out a bit wider than if they were in a diamond. You can use duties to push the central CM higher or lower on the pitch to make your diamond. This approach gives you better pitch coverage than the traditional FM diamond, which I find to be too narrow.

[Cleon]

surely it doesnt, because look for the overlap means look for the wingbacks who are giving width to the team by getting forward?

Nope it tells the wingers to hold up the ball and sit narrower like Herne explained above.

[iamneallyons]

Nope it tells the wingers to hold up the ball and sit narrower like Herne explained above.

ah right thats fair enough then, i thought it might just make mcr/mcl also look for the overlap.

[iamneallyons]

http://www.fmscout.com/a-fm15-tactic-il-trequartista.html

this was my take on the diamond, it has the middle of the forward three dropping deep and two deep advanced playmakers who surge from deep - you can mess around with the roles but it worked really well! Iv got this going in FM16 to if you want the FMF its here...

http://www.megafileupload.com/60gh/Il_Trequartista_DA02949B-A7D0-436C-9960-1472F6CCC365.fmf

and looks like this...

[AllRed]

Well not sure I'll need it now as I got sacked on the 6th March following being absolutely robbed 2-1 away at Huddersfield in the FA Cup Done by the old cross with their striker whipping it in from near the penalty spot, twice.

Actually started picking up a few more decent wins, especially in the Europa League vs. Fiorentina 4-0 & then moving to a counter-attacking style against Arsenal and beating them 2-1, however ultimately I just wasn't scoring enough goals and conceded far too many to have a go at 4th. Every time I closed the gap to a few points I blew it the next week, eerily similar to real life to go with Danny Ings mirroring this and doing his ACL ruling himself out for 8 months. Sturridge just wasn't scoring enough, probably due to being starved of proper service, but I just couldn't seem to setup it up for him to flourish, Firmino playing in a DLF(s) role equaled his measly tally of 6, in nearly half the games. Had a dabble with the 4-3-3 wide formation and it seemed a little more attacking but I didn't really delve much deeper than in 2 cup games.

Getting beat 1-0 by supposed lesser teams or 0-0 and 1-1 draws far too often, getting the advice off my assistant that I'm getting overrun in midfield even when I had 3 central, playing short passing and retaining possession, really frustrating getting his advice about playing more direct and winning headers in the air, completely going against what I was trying to create.

Few things I noticed:

- Majority of my chances and goals were coming down Clyne's side (best avg rating in the team though) and looking in depth at the analysis maps he seemed to be shooting quite often aswell although I tried to restrict this in his PI.

- Still far too many goals on crosses, whether its down to my setup or its just ME bias I'm not sure.

- Players in my midfield bunching up, whether it be my 2 CM's and the AM, or when I pushed up my DM into a 3.

Now its only the 2 instances I managed to screenshot but I had noticed it at other times, even when asking the AM or one of the CM to move into the channels.

So after I think 26 games in charge and getting the boot:

- 9th place

- 0 GD (27 SCORED & CONCEDED)

- 39 POINTS

In the end not good enough with the players at my disposal. Thoughts?

[DavidPengilley]

Is it possible to work it into the box, and play a shorter game while having a Target Man up front? Your players will be looking to play it up to Benteke as often as possible.

Also, with the Target Man, why have a playmaker in behind him and another one on the middle midfield line? There's 3 players your other players will be looking to get the ball to asap

[iamneallyons]

honestly i think you just set that tactic up all wrong for me...

your playing with a target man but at the same time telling the team to play a short passing game, then retain possession aswell - look for the overlap but at the same time, play narrower.. you never really see a team playing short passing with a big target man up front, the idea is to get the ball up to him, him to hold it up and then bring others into play.

your also asking them to play at a fast tempo, this doesnt go hand in hand with retain possession OR control - i basically never use retain possession unless im looking to nullify the game when iv got a 3-0 or 2-0 lead heading into the last 15/20 minutes.

If your looking to dominate possession, slow the tempo, short passing - use control, work the ball into the box, pass it out from the back - thats the type of team instructions you would set up with, Look for an overall picture - you can use fast tempo aswell to speed things up but i wouldnt be using a target man and retain possession with a fast tempo if that makes sense.

Another point is your shape, your using flexible - you have at least in my opinion FOUR specialist roles in that team (target man, ball winning mid, box 2 box mid, DLP/AP) so you want to be more structured so they carry out the roles your asking them to do anymore than 4/5 and i use highly structured with great success.

Hope this helps.

[RTHerringbone]

Midfield bunching is often an issue caused by too many Playmaker Roles in the same area of the pitch.

[AllRed]

Thanks for the feedback guys, lots of great info in here, much that hadn't occurred to me and lots of things I was just plain ignorant of!

To address some of the points:

I had turned off the 'Look for Overlap' a few 'in-game' months before and had actually changed Benteke to Firmino playing as a DLF(s) with some success, my initial reasoning was that Benteke could be a focal point that could occupy defenders whilst Sturridge played off him and took advantage of the space he'd create by dragging a defender out, obviously in practice it doesn't work like that, as I didn't realise that TM was solely who'd they'd try and hit regardless of passing setting.

My idea behind CONTROL and FLEXIBLE with RETAIN POSSESSION was I'd obviously like to keep the ball but wanted my players to be able to interchange if necessary to drag opposition players around due to it being a narrow formation, plus the fast tempo was to prevent the opposition sitting in and allowing them to get back into position and maintain their shape easily.

I had no idea that specialist roles were affected by the shape, I actually thought that even if they do move from their position on occasion that they'd still just default back to the role they had been assigned.

Would simplifying the BWM to a DM, the AP(a) to an AM and just playing a bog standard CM(s) cause less confusion between players and bring more clarity to the system or are specialist roles necessary in higher quality leagues?

[alinp]

Just going back to your thread title... were you looking to try and re-create the 13/14 Diamond? If so, a few observations...

The Gerrard role was probably more of a HB than anything else

The fullbacks were Johnson, Flanagan, Enrique or Cissoko - hardly worldbeaters

When Sterling played at the tip, he liked to run at the opposition, but Coutinho less so

Rodgers described both Suarez and Sturridge as "9 and a half's"

There were more long balls than we'd like to remember - getting the ball to Suarez quickly

with that in mind, if it were me I'd be inclined to change the following...

Both FB's to WB(S)

DM as HB

AM if Coutinho as AP(S), but if trying to re-create Sterling Role, I'd go Tq or SS (or poss AM(A) + Dribble More PI)

Both Strikers as CF's - one S, one A

Be more direct with the passing and up the closing down (certainly for the front 5 individually, if not as a TI).

[iamneallyons]

Thanks for the feedback guys, lots of great info in here, much that hadn't occurred to me and lots of things I was just plain ignorant of!

To address some of the points:

I had turned off the 'Look for Overlap' a few 'in-game' months before and had actually changed Benteke to Firmino playing as a DLF(s) with some success, my initial reasoning was that Benteke could be a focal point that could occupy defenders whilst Sturridge played off him and took advantage of the space he'd create by dragging a defender out, obviously in practice it doesn't work like that, as I didn't realise that TM was solely who'd they'd try and hit regardless of passing setting.

My idea behind CONTROL and FLEXIBLE with RETAIN POSSESSION was I'd obviously like to keep the ball but wanted my players to be able to interchange if necessary to drag opposition players around due to it being a narrow formation, plus the fast tempo was to prevent the opposition sitting in and allowing them to get back into position and maintain their shape easily.

I had no idea that specialist roles were affected by the shape, I actually thought that even if they do move from their position on occasion that they'd still just default back to the role they had been assigned.

Would simplifying the BWM to a DM, the AP(a) to an AM and just playing a bog standard CM(s) cause less confusion between players and bring more clarity to the system or are specialist roles necessary in higher quality leagues?

but as iv said retain possession will just look to keep the ball with no real purpose other than to keep it, also with shape - its not just about keeping shape, its about how the players react to shape etc - certain shapes will set what players do in terms of getting involved in defending/transition and attacking.. when it comes to roles the more structure the more specialist roles and vice versa, the more specialist roles you should have more structure - its about getting the players to do what you are specifically asking them to do.

[avfcmatthew]

I don't think I agree with the 'Play Narrower' instruction. I remember watching Liverpool playing the diamond that season, and Allen/Henderson seemed closer to wingers rather than central midfielders. That instruction will just make them further away from wingers, and I think your system could benefit from the width the 'Play Wider' would bring.

[tommonufc]

Watched this when it was on a couple of weeks ago and inspired me there and then to try and play a diamond...

Very interesting analysis on the reasons Rodger's played a diamond, building a system around his two best players in Suarez and Sturridge

[video=youtube;51Ki7ke-w9o]

[MrMungo]

Thanks for starting this thread.

Finding this very interesting.

Ironically, your formation is remarkably similar to mine, and I am also Liverpool.

I don't know much about Football at all, and not seen a game in 20 years, but early on, I identified Firmino and Coutinho as the 2 key players that I wanted to try and get the best out of.

I could've gone for a 4-2-3-1 but wanted to remain solid enough at the back, because I feel the defence is a slightly weak area (especially with my injuries, I was down to 3 at the back, with Gomez being one of them!), apart from Skrtel who really performs for me somehow.

But I digress. Because I know barely nothing about football, I am constantly trying different things.

I stick with something for 15 minutes, change one or two things, then see how that goes, then change again, if necessary.

In a recent match against WBA, it was 0-0 at half time. At that time, I was playing Ings as a F9 with the thinking that he would be able to bring Coutinho/Firmino into the mix but it didn't work for me. I changed him to a CF at half time, and the side scored 4 times.

In the most recent match, I was down 1-0 within a moment due to my defenders napping at a corner. I thought it was one of the those matches, and I almost gave up watching the whole match, but didn't.

Went from an average defensive line to a very high defensive line (was seeing far too much football in my own half for my liking) and went from mixed crosses to low crosses.

Those changes made such a huge difference. My possession went from 40% to about 60% over the course of the match, and crucially Clyne's crosses looked more threatening.

His first few crosses after the change got cleared, but Ings got on the end of one, and then 2 or 3 minutes later, Coutinho got on the end of another.

My advice(for what it's worth)? Watch whole matches - it makes you feel like the manager!

Make changes until you're happy.

Treat every game as a new challenge (ie, watch the whole match, or at least until you are feeling confident in your side and tactics)

Keep plugging away at your formation. When you make the right change, it's such a wonderful feeling. Almost better than sex, but don't tell my gf that!

For the record, the match against Newcastle:

And results with Liverpool so far with no major signings - if I can get a few goodresults, anyone can!

[AllRed]

Thanks everyone for the responses, they're appreciated. I've had this parked the past week as I ambled on with the save taking over the mighty Peterborough. Played through till the end of the season, had a little experiment with 352 counter-attack and got a little sidetracked with that, but I'm ready to give it another crack with this Diamond lark.

As has been mentioned, the original tactic here I was trying to create and the one I somehow ended up playing with wasn't being true to the original 4-4-2 Diamond Liverpool were playing under Rodgers. I'd made a few errors initially and had pretty much jumped in feet first without actually breaking down the players, their roles and wondering how the system worked and what made it successful.

Essentially in the 442 diamond (or a 4312), you have the a flat back 4 with fullbacks providing width, Liverpool has that predominantly down the right with Glen Johnson being a more attacking fullback.

A midfield with an anchorman or 'Half Back' as Gerrard was, taking the ball from deep positions to launch counter-attacks or the quick through ball when the ball is aggressively won back in midfield. Slightly more advanced you have 2 "Shuttlers" who look allow Gerrard more protection due to his ageing legs and do his running for him. But have responsibilities to covering the flanks if the fullbacks overlap and get forward. They need to be big on stamina, teamwork and workrate. Although Allen and Henderson are preferred with the required attributes, Phil Coutinho was shown to be equally adept as one of the '2'. But pressing to win the ball back in their own half is essential.

The tip of the diamond in general can have different sorts of no. 10's but for our system we have the template of Raheem Sterling. Bags of pace, always on the half turn and with the dribbling ability and enough vision to provide service for the front 2 and cause havoc occupy the space in between the midfield and defence.

Devastating on the counter, with 2 other quick attackers with movement, the diamond is primarily a counter attack formation which compacts down when defending, by trying to have defensive zonal coverage across the pitch.

The front 2, in that Liverpool side were devastating, 52 goals combined in the league and assisting many more. Happy to drift wide when required, Luis Suarez makes himself available across the full width of the pitch in the final third, with immense work rate and energy in hassling the oppostion defences into submission. Technically superb he'll drive forward into space or drag defenders away, allowing space the Sturridge and Sterling to exploit. The complete striker.

Sturridge also a player that drift out wide on occasion, his pace and movement is key in stretching defences and providing an option on the counter. Composed, clinical and technically superb aswell.

[AllRed]

The Defence

Liverpool scored a crazy 101 goals during the 13/14 campaign but conceded a downright shoddy 50 goals, 2 less than Hull City in 16th! So I'd like to tighten the back up somewhat because as exciting as them games were, recreating a leaky defence are not the lengths I'm willing to go for authenticity.

For the goalkeeper we have the same man available in Simon Mignolet, not as aerially commanding as I'd like and mediocre with his feet but of sufficient quality to save shots and do the basics without compromising me too much. Fantastic Reflexes (18) and great at One on Ones (17) however.

Primarily a CB pairing of Skrtel with one of Agger or Toure playing an almost even amount games each. Skrtel the no nonsense type defender but with average ability on the ball who looks to play it simple when in possession, aerially more dominant than his CB partner and a threat to the opposition at set-pieces (scored 7 league goals in 13/14). Agger a ball-playing CB of pedigree, comfortable on the ballnot as physically commanding Skrtel or even Toure but capable of the odd burst through middle and has a extremely good passing range,also it negates the need for both CB's to defer to Gerrard all the time by having him take the ball off their toes and getting stuck to deep.

Dropping in Sakho as an Agger replacement should be adequate, not as accomplished on the ball but a halfway house between Agger and Toure I feel. Great Strength (18), Determination (17) & Bravery (17) plus good Heading (17) ability. Skrtel will play the role of himself and go straight in. Standout attributes Heading (16), Determination(17) & Strength (16). Lots of heart and desire in that defence if not lacking a little in their ability on the ball.

Fullbacks were Jon 'Flani Alves' Flanagan and Glen Johnson, with Aly Cissokho making a dozen or so appearances at left back aswell. Flanagan on the left, tough and uncomprising tackler, but with limited attacking responsibility, but I'd still want someone who can play a support role as support from fullback is important in a diamond system. Johnson as a more attacking wingback but Rodgers liked to push both of them up and wide with Gerrard dropping in between the CB's, which would allow the outball to Johnson more or for Gerrard to go direct/long to the mobile frontmen.

Clyne is a perfect Johnson substitute so I'm sorted there, wonderful Pace (17) & Acceleration (17) and superior Tackling (17) aswell, all round solid defender. Unfortunately Flanno is out for 4 months, so the obvious choice would be Moreno and he's brilliant in the game but I want to stay true to the players that performed in that season, so a versatile Flanagan style defender is needed. I've scouted out both Lucas Orban and Alvaro Dominquez as deputies for him, both are tough tacklers but not flash on the ball, however cost wise, Dominguez looks like my man, with some cracking Mental stats, Aggression & Determination (16), Bravery (17), Positioning (15) and really solid Marking (17) Tackling (17) he's ideal.

The write-up took longer than expected so will deal with the crucial areas of midfield and attack tomorrow, but if anyone would like to add anything feel free.

[alinp]

The Defence

Liverpool scored a crazy 101 goals during the 13/14 campaign but conceded a downright shoddy 50 goals, 2 less than Hull City in 16th! So I'd like to tighten the back up somewhat because as exciting as them games were, recreating a leaky defence are not the lengths I'm willing to go for authenticity.

For the goalkeeper we have the same man available in Simon Mignolet, not as aerially commanding as I'd like and mediocre with his feet but of sufficient quality to save shots and do the basics without compromising me too much. Fantastic Reflexes (18) and great at One on Ones (17) however.

Primarily a CB pairing of Skrtel with one of Agger or Toure playing an almost even amount games each. Skrtel the no nonsense type defender but with average ability on the ball who looks to play it simple when in possession, aerially more dominant than his CB partner and a threat to the opposition at set-pieces (scored 7 league goals in 13/14). Agger a ball-playing CB of pedigree, comfortable on the ballnot as physically commanding Skrtel or even Toure but capable of the odd burst through middle and has a extremely good passing range,also it negates the need for both CB's to defer to Gerrard all the time by having him take the ball off their toes and getting stuck to deep.

Dropping in Sakho as an Agger replacement should be adequate, not as accomplished on the ball but a halfway house between Agger and Toure I feel. Great Strength (18), Determination (17) & Bravery (17) plus good Heading (17) ability. Skrtel will play the role of himself and go straight in. Standout attributes Heading (16), Determination(17) & Strength (16). Lots of heart and desire in that defence if not lacking a little in their ability on the ball.

Fullbacks were Jon 'Flani Alves' Flanagan and Glen Johnson, with Aly Cissokho making a dozen or so appearances at left back aswell. Flanagan on the left, tough and uncomprising tackler, but with limited attacking responsibility, but I'd still want someone who can play a support role as support from fullback is important in a diamond system. Johnson as a more attacking wingback but Rodgers liked to push both of them up and wide with Gerrard dropping in between the CB's, which would allow the outball to Johnson more or for Gerrard to go direct/long to the mobile frontmen.

Clyne is a perfect Johnson substitute so I'm sorted there, wonderful Pace (17) & Acceleration (17) and superior Tackling (17) aswell, all round solid defender. Unfortunately Flanno is out for 4 months, so the obvious choice would be Moreno and he's brilliant in the game but I want to stay true to the players that performed in that season, so a versatile Flanagan style defender is needed. I've scouted out both Lucas Orban and Alvaro Dominquez as deputies for him, both are tough tacklers but not flash on the ball, however cost wise, Dominguez looks like my man, with some cracking Mental stats, Aggression & Determination (16), Bravery (17), Positioning (15) and really solid Marking (17) Tackling (17) he's ideal.

The write-up took longer than expected so will deal with the crucial areas of midfield and attack tomorrow, but if anyone would like to add anything feel free.

I'd check your numbers on the CB's re. appearances, but I'm sure Sakho played a significant number of games that season, especially towards the back half, hence essentially you do still have the same CD's (albeit a couple of years older).

Looking forward to where you end up with this.

[AllRed]

I'd check your numbers on the CB's re. appearances, but I'm sure Sakho played a significant number of games that season, especially towards the back half, hence essentially you do still have the same CD's (albeit a couple of years older).

Looking forward to where you end up with this.

You're right, I had completely dismissed Sakho had played for some reason as I just focussed on him as a replacement for Agger (who he made the same amounts of starts as) and that fact got lost in the midst of me just giving a cursory glance at starting lineups of the games I looked. (The United(a) 0-3, Arsenal 5-1, Everton 4-0, Southampton(a) 0-3 & Swansea(a) 3-6) As none featured Sakho in the starting lineup and those games and setups are templates for my system.

However it still plays nicely into my hands, so not too much of an oversight thankfully.

[ajsr1982]

I've tried doing this before, and it's really quite difficult. Things I would look for.

- Everything went through Gerrard. This is why the system started to fail, when other teams rumbled it and man-marked him. But when it worked, everything went through him. Getting this role right is really tough. He would drop in and split the CBs, much like a HB, but he demanded the ball, and played the ball like a Regista. Probably why we conceded so many goals! I think you need to switch off all other playmaker roles and get the ball going through this player. DLP-D, might be worth a look.

- Someone mentioned it above, but I'd look at setting this up as a 4-1-3-2. The idea of the diamond was to get Henderson and the other midfielder, which was sometimes Coutinho, sometimes Allen (Coutinho, Suarez, Sturridge and Sterling in the same team! Rodgers, you brilliant nutcase!) in the pockets of space to the sides of opposition midfield. Playing three across the centre will push these players slightly wider, and offer more cover for the CBs. I'd be wary of employing Henderson as a BBM. He's made for the BBM role, but he was pretty disciplined in this system. CM-S may be more appropriate.

- The Sterling/Coutinho role could be well replicated by a CM-A. The 'central winger' role that is becoming increasingly fashionable. You'll get some (not lots) additional defensive cover as well.

- This system was all about lightning fast transitions and an unbelievable amount of movement up front. It also had lots of players with the ability to improvise in tight situations. In my opinion, it's incredibly difficult to do, and it's arguably more reliant upon personnel than the tactical framework. It's not a coincidence that we've only seen its like once in 25 years of Premier League football. It was a brief, but amazing period where everything just clicked, but it fell apart as quickly as it was put together.

[iamneallyons]

transition has to be the key to this formation, i think you need to be so direct and the ball has to move very quickly to the front two while they are in space - remember the front two also split and pulled wide, they stretched the opposition defence and allowed sterli/coutinho the space to drive into from deep.

if only we managed to keep suarez and this team/system together and find a suitable replacement for stevie-g we could have seriously kicked on!

[alinp]

You're right, I had completely dismissed Sakho had played for some reason as I just focussed on him as a replacement for Agger (who he made the same amounts of starts as) and that fact got lost in the midst of me just giving a cursory glance at starting lineups of the games I looked. (The United(a) 0-3, Arsenal 5-1, Everton 4-0, Southampton(a) 0-3 & Swansea(a) 3-6) As none featured Sakho in the starting lineup and those games and setups are templates for my system.

However it still plays nicely into my hands, so not too much of an oversight thankfully.

Remember, they didn't play with a diamond till the 2nd half of the season. There was a period of flat(ish) 442 that year and for both the Everton and Arsenal wins, he played a 433.

[AllRed]

Alinp, I was only talking about the lineups for those games and not the system they played, but thanks for the reminder as its tempting to maybe have the 433 as a backup, as Rodgers was happy to switch between the 2 when it suited, also it allows Coutinho more time on the pitch, especialy as he could be majestic at times that season.

The Midfield

Here I'll start with the captain, Steven Gerrard. Something of a quarterback role, between a Half Back and a Regista even. But I personally think I'm gonna go basic and play him in a DLP (d) role, allowing the play to go through him but not having him bombing around. Personally feel he hasn't the legs for a Regista and a HB is a bit too defensive I feel. Now, finding a replacement for Gerrard with his Mental stats off the charts (Determination (18), Leadership (20), Composure & Decisions (16) and then a player with Vision (16), First Touch (15) and Passing (18) would be incredible tough, without spending big bucks to replace, I had a look at Yohann Cabaye but he didn't have the required defensive abilities and would be expensive. Had a wildcard in Cristian Ledesma from Argentinos Jrs. who looked great but is rather old and I didn't fancy gambling on him and him not adapting to the PL. I then had a look Bruno from Villareal as he ticks alot of boxes but he just doesn't cut the proverbial mustard. So I'm getting Stevie back as even thought the physical side has dropped off a touch he's still got all the tools in his locker.

**EDIT: Small oversight, I haven't actually checked whether Gerrard would be available that easily, so might have to find an alternative.**

The other 2... Allen and Henderson I'll be sticking with, I could improve in that area and might still go into the market for a similar player for rotation, but I'll update in due course. These guys need to be the legs but also adept playing a fast transition side plus be capable of pressing. So stamina, tackling, workrate, determination, passing and decisions are all of a sufficient standard, Henderson is physically better than Allen and better in attack but Allen has a better first touch & technique (both 15) I'm thinking of using both in CM support roles as their roles are the same, maybe tweaking Henderson and Allen's PI's so the former can get forward and contribute in attacks with his 3rd man running and the latter will tend to hold the fort a little more, but with support when needed.

Sterling at the tip, needs to be rapid and direct, so I'm looking for a dribbling with some vision, technique and anticipation for when it breaks and coupled with a good work ethic aswell. I'll go with Phil Coutinho as he has played the position before, even if I don't personally think he's best as a No. 10 due to his erratic shooting and patience but he's practically superior to Sterling in everyway, bar his speed and stamina. I could look for a like for like to replace Sterling (who seems a touch underrated on FM I feel), so will shop around, however No. 10's with bags of pace and his tenacity are tough to find.

As always player/team suggestions are welcome.

[alinp]

Alinp, I was only talking about the lineups for those games and not the system they played, but thanks for the reminder as its tempting to maybe have the 433 as a backup, as Rodgers was happy to switch between the 2 when it suited, also it allows Coutinho more time on the pitch, especialy as he could be majestic at times that season.

The Midfield

Here I'll start with the captain, Steven Gerrard. Something of a quarterback role, between a Half Back and a Regista even. But I personally think I'm gonna go basic and play him in a DLP (d) role, allowing the play to go through him but not having him bombing around. Personally feel he hasn't the legs for a Regista and a HB is a bit too defensive I feel. Now, finding a replacement for Gerrard with his Mental stats off the charts (Determination (18), Leadership (20), Composure & Decisions (16) and then a player with Vision (16), First Touch (15) and Passing (18) would be incredible tough, without spending big bucks to replace, I had a look at Yohann Cabaye but he didn't have the required defensive abilities and would be expensive. Had a wildcard in Cristian Ledesma from Argentinos Jrs. who looked great but is rather old and I didn't fancy gambling on him and him not adapting to the PL. I then had a look Bruno from Villareal as he ticks alot of boxes but he just doesn't cut the proverbial mustard. So I'm getting Stevie back as even thought the physical side has dropped off a touch he's still got all the tools in his locker.

The other 2... Allen and Henderson I'll be sticking with, I could improve in that area and might still go into the market for a similar player for rotation, but I'll update in due course. These guys need to be the legs but also adept playing a fast transition side plus be capable of pressing. So stamina, tackling, workrate, determination, passing and decisions are all of a sufficient standard, Henderson is physically better than Allen and better in attack but Allen has a better first touch & technique (both 15) I'm thinking of using both in CM support roles as their roles are the same, maybe tweaking Henderson and Allen's PI's so the former can get forward and contribute in attacks with his 3rd man running and the latter will tend to hold the fort a little more, but with support when needed.

Sterling at the tip, needs to be rapid and direct, so I'm looking for a dribbling with some vision, technique and anticipation for when it breaks and coupled with a good work ethic aswell. I'll go with Phil Coutinho as he has played the position before, even if I don't personally think he's best as a No. 10 due to his erratic shooting and patience but he's practically superior to Sterling in everyway, bar his speed and stamina. I could look for a like for like to replace Sterling (who seems a touch underrated on FM I feel), so will shop around, however No. 10's with bags of pace and his tenacity are tough to find.

As always player/team suggestions are welcome.

I think you're on the right track... what role are you looking at for the tip?

Re. Henderson - I seem to recall that at times he was almost a 1 man pressing division, so possibly either up the closing down for his role, or.... use a BWM(S)? It may not be fashionable, but I think it's nearer to how he played than the BBM role that the game thinks he's perfect for.

[iamneallyons]

I think you're on the right track... what role are you looking at for the tip?

Re. Henderson - I seem to recall that at times he was almost a 1 man pressing division, so possibly either up the closing down for his role, or.... use a BWM(S)? It may not be fashionable, but I think it's nearer to how he played than the BBM role that the game thinks he's perfect for.

i wouldnt use the BWM role at all, he will maraud to close down but leave you out of shape.

as for getting stevie-g back, its a none-starter iv already tried it and he isnt interested!

[alinp]

i wouldnt use the BWM role at all, he will maraud to close down but leave you out of shape.

as for getting stevie-g back, its a none-starter iv already tried it and he isnt interested!

The BWM(S) is a perfectly valid role, but needs to be in a 3 - in this tactic it would be in a 3 so could be considered. I'm not saying it's definitely the right role for Henderson, just something to consider.

But hey, thanks for your positive, helpful comments.

[Cleon]

The BWM(S) is a perfectly valid role, but needs to be in a 3 - in this tactic it would be in a 3 so could be considered. I'm not saying it's definitely the right role for Henderson, just something to consider.

But hey, thanks for your positive, helpful comments.

I think it would suit what he's after as well. He has the protection of a DMC behind so you can be more aggressive then with the roles in front. However his initial idea of a CM support is also a really good choice. He certainly has a few options available

[iamneallyons]

The BWM(S) is a perfectly valid role, but needs to be in a 3 - in this tactic it would be in a 3 so could be considered. I'm not saying it's definitely the right role for Henderson, just something to consider.

But hey, thanks for your positive, helpful comments.

Yeah that's very true, id overlooked the fact he was having 3 in the centre one being a defensive midfielder!

[iamneallyons]

I think it would suit what he's after as well. He has the protection of a DMC behind so you can be more aggressive then with the roles in front. However his initial idea of a CM support is also a really good choice. He certainly has a few options available

I always found it a struggle with the striker roles getting them to pull wide, I used two treqs in fm15 because they dropped deep and roamed and you could give them the run wide with the ball instruction but you can't give them that instruction in 16.

[Cyderman]

I use a narrow diamond, and have 2 F9s with specific instructions to man mark their nearside fullback (unless wing-back strata) with a SS in the AMC slot. Having helpful (e.g. channels) PPMs helps, having AML or AMR / ST hybrid type players also helps (think attribute make-up not position - pace, dribbling, movement), having their transition starting position wide also helps, having a right footer on the right and a left footer on the left helps, having tactics that exploit the flanks (the space is on your flanks always), having pass into space helps.

In my current setup I have 2 right footed strikers. The guy on the right (retrained AMR) naturally plays much wider than the guy on the left in a symmetrical formation. He is 2nd in assists on the team. The concept of 2x F9 and a SS for me is the amount of times they overload 2 x DC (even with DMC support). The SS is often the furthest forward but never static. I basically score 3 types of goals - crosses, triangles on the edge of the box with the open man be slipped in with a short pass, and longer through balls - normally when the opponents are chasing the game.

You can do many things to encourage your strikers to move wide, but in my experience having the right type of striker is crucial to actually consistently seeing it happen in game.

[SUAREZ 7]

Thanks for starting this thread.

Finding this very interesting.

Ironically, your formation is remarkably similar to mine, and I am also Liverpool.

I don't know much about Football at all, and not seen a game in 20 years, but early on, I identified Firmino and Coutinho as the 2 key players that I wanted to try and get the best out of.

I could've gone for a 4-2-3-1 but wanted to remain solid enough at the back, because I feel the defence is a slightly weak area (especially with my injuries, I was down to 3 at the back, with Gomez being one of them!), apart from Skrtel who really performs for me somehow.

But I digress. Because I know barely nothing about football, I am constantly trying different things.

I stick with something for 15 minutes, change one or two things, then see how that goes, then change again, if necessary.

In a recent match against WBA, it was 0-0 at half time. At that time, I was playing Ings as a F9 with the thinking that he would be able to bring Coutinho/Firmino into the mix but it didn't work for me. I changed him to a CF at half time, and the side scored 4 times.

In the most recent match, I was down 1-0 within a moment due to my defenders napping at a corner. I thought it was one of the those matches, and I almost gave up watching the whole match, but didn't.

Went from an average defensive line to a very high defensive line (was seeing far too much football in my own half for my liking) and went from mixed crosses to low crosses.

Those changes made such a huge difference. My possession went from 40% to about 60% over the course of the match, and crucially Clyne's crosses looked more threatening.

His first few crosses after the change got cleared, but Ings got on the end of one, and then 2 or 3 minutes later, Coutinho got on the end of another.

My advice(for what it's worth)? Watch whole matches - it makes you feel like the manager!

Make changes until you're happy.

Treat every game as a new challenge (ie, watch the whole match, or at least until you are feeling confident in your side and tactics)

Keep plugging away at your formation. When you make the right change, it's such a wonderful feeling. Almost better than sex, but don't tell my gf that!

For the record, the match against Newcastle:

And results with Liverpool so far with no major signings - if I can get a few goodresults, anyone can!

this looks great been trying to develop

somethimg like this to get both coutinho and firmino playing together how were your results for rest of season any player instructions?

[iamneallyons]

I use a narrow diamond, and have 2 F9s with specific instructions to man mark their nearside fullback (unless wing-back strata) with a SS in the AMC slot. Having helpful (e.g. channels) PPMs helps, having AML or AMR / ST hybrid type players also helps (think attribute make-up not position - pace, dribbling, movement), having their transition starting position wide also helps, having a right footer on the right and a left footer on the left helps, having tactics that exploit the flanks (the space is on your flanks always), having pass into space helps.

In my current setup I have 2 right footed strikers. The guy on the right (retrained AMR) naturally plays much wider than the guy on the left in a symmetrical formation. He is 2nd in assists on the team. The concept of 2x F9 and a SS for me is the amount of times they overload 2 x DC (even with DMC support). The SS is often the furthest forward but never static. I basically score 3 types of goals - crosses, triangles on the edge of the box with the open man be slipped in with a short pass, and longer through balls - normally when the opponents are chasing the game.

You can do many things to encourage your strikers to move wide, but in my experience having the right type of striker is crucial to actually consistently seeing it happen in game.

I like that advice, it's an obvious thing to do that people probably overlook - the mark full backs so they are transitioning from wide positions and having the right attributes for that hybrid style of winger come striker sort of role.

Sturridge was used out on the wing early on in his career when he was at Bolton on loan I think that spell has really helped him become the player he is today because of his movement and ability to play out wide and then attack the box.

[AllRed]

**UPDATE**

Right been a bit preoccupied recently so haven't had a proper bash at this yet, however, I started up a save and had a little fiddle about and have made a few observations plus maybe a reality check..or two!

- Firstly, signings.. I think I under-estimated how tough attracting players to Liverpool would actually be when drawing up my potential targets list, I've had to write off a couple of players simply because I can't get them, no dice I'm afraid. So my team will have a distinct PL feel to it. Hence my pre-season consisted of me desperately trying to offload players to free up cash and then scrambling back and forth with numerous clubs trying to hammer out deals, the pre-season games just became a hindrance as the team was half complete and a month went by, before I had even got 50% of my targets signed.

- Replacing Luis Suarez. It's impossible. My two immediate thoughts were Bacca and Tevez, no chance of either. Then I had a look at Ayoze Perez at Newcastle but his lack of aggression was put me off. So I settled on pacey, hard-working, tenacious fella with good finishing ability..

- Choosing between a proper 4-1-2-1-2 diamond or a 4-1-3-2... play a CM(a) in the middle of the 3 or a AP(a)... I can't see much difference.

- The passing style. Mixed or Direct. Both seemed to be massively wasteful in the friendlies. Maybe I need to adjust some PI's for certain players to prevent too much hoofball.

- The defensive line, push them up to win it back high up or slightly deeper to encourage them to push on and get caught out?

- Counter or Standard mentality (Attacking??) .... seems a waste against lesser sides as I just get too much of the ball and have no opportunity to break on sides...

Transfers Out:

Pain in the backside trying to shift some of these and couldn't get interest till they played a few friendlies for some reason...(shop window?) but still they generated me around £59m. Took a big hit on a few aswell but not too bothered as it gives me a fairly big kitty to bring in replacements.

Lallana - £23m

Lovren - £11.5m

Benteke - £18m

Enrique - £1.5m

Milner - £4.5m

Transfers In:

- Went back on my original Flanagan stand-in and bought Lucas Orban from Valencia for £7.75m, good tackler and aggressive. Better aerially and a shade faster, but not Flanagan's equal defensively.

- There's no-one comparable to Sturridge, but Saido Berahino is in his mould, his 'Attribute octagon' is identical bar being slightly inferior in most departments. But he has pace, great finishing ability, good composure and has surprisingly decent workrate. Cost me a small fortune but the deal is heavily incentivised, but thats £25m gone.

- Next up is Andre Ayew as my quite expensive Sterling replacement, although a wideman and not naturally a no.10 he's superior to Sterling in every department bar slightly less pace but still a cracking player that could do a job in there, although he'll be behind Coutinho in the pecking order anyway. Another £25m up front with many add-ons.

- Looking for my Allen/Henderson replacement if required, I went to Swansea again and took Ki Sung-Yeung off their hands for a cool £14m. He's technically more refined than both and is better aerially but defensively is not as accomplished. Still will help shift the ball quickly and calmly. But for some stupid reason he couldn't get a work permit so, so I'll have wait for ages to apply again, ridiculous.

- Who's the Suarez then..? Well I've gone for Jamie Vardy, cost me £19.75m with plenty of add-ons again. Look, he has ridiculous pace (18), plenty of aggression (19), superb workrate (20) teamwork (19) and has decent finishing (15). Yes he hasn't the flair of a Suarez and isn't a brilliant dribbler, but he gives me that Suarez-esqe relentlessness up top.

I'm torn between using Emre Can in the Gerrard role or going out and bringing in Bruno from Villareal, really liking his mental stats plus his passing and other technical stats are better than Can's. Still time in the window for this.

Hope to finalise any deals before the first game, have one more friendly so I'm praying that I can make this setup work!

[alinp]

**UPDATE**

Right been a bit preoccupied recently so haven't had a proper bash at this yet, however, I started up a save and had a little fiddle about and have made a few observations plus maybe a reality check..or two!

- Firstly, signings.. I think I under-estimated how tough attracting players to Liverpool would actually be when drawing up my potential targets list, I've had to write off a couple of players simply because I can't get them, no dice I'm afraid. So my team will have a distinct PL feel to it. Hence my pre-season consisted of me desperately trying to offload players to free up cash and then scrambling back and forth with numerous clubs trying to hammer out deals, the pre-season games just became a hindrance as the team was half complete and a month went by, before I had even got 50% of my targets signed.

- Replacing Luis Suarez. It's impossible. My two immediate thoughts were Bacca and Tevez, no chance of either. Then I had a look at Ayoze Perez at Newcastle but his lack of aggression was put me off. So I settled on pacey, hard-working, tenacious fella with good finishing ability.

- Choosing between a proper 4-1-2-1-2 diamond or a 4-1-3-2... play a CM(a) in the middle of the 3 or a AP(a)... I can't see much difference.

- The passing style. Mixed or Direct. Both seemed to be massively wasteful in the friendlies. Maybe I need to adjust some PI's for certain players to prevent too much hoofball.

- The defensive line, push them up to win it back high up or slightly deeper to encourage them to push on and get caught out?

- Counter or Standard mentality... seems a waste against lesser sides as I just get too much of the ball and have no opportunity to break on sides...

For me there has to be a relatively high line. If you think about their best performances, this was definitely a truth, HOWEVER you'll need alternative options for when they did sit deeper. I would suggest you don't try and do it all in one tactic tho. Now, re. the high line, the question is whether to set it high naturally by use of mentality, or use a lower mentality and then push it higher. Personally, I think they took the game to their opponents, so Id be looking at Control or Attacking as a starting point tbh.

On the formation Q - I distinctly recall Rodgers saying he played a diamond against City as it allowed Sterling to get into the space behind their Centre Mids - so for me that means playing an AMC.

[alinp]

Oh, and I'd leave the passing alone until you see how it looks. It's worth remembering that in more attacking mentalities, defenders will look to re-cycle the ball and attackers look to be more direct. Also, if you have a DLPd at DM as suggested earlier, he'll naturally attract passes from your CD's.

[alinp]

By the way - what roles are you using for the S&S roles?

[AllRed]

I'm thinking of using Firmino in the Suarez role as well, as a False 9, then using Vardy as a defensive forward in other games. Its not quite Suarez but until I have a player more capable I'll have to compromise. Berahino/Sturridge will be AF, but both will be encouraged to move into channels. I'm playing Emre Can in the DLP(d) instead. I'll post the details up and will update my progress later as I'm W2, D1, L1 in the league so far, but apart from the first game which was perfect counter attack, beating Chelsea 3-1 away, since then its been a bit disappointing (the worst Villa 3-0!) as I'm not really getting the style expected.. I was playing on 'Counter' with a normal line and experimented with high and deep but I'm sure how I go about creating counter attacks playing on an Attacking or Control mentality, which I've switched too, still need to tweak it a bit but.. anyway I'll leave these here and I'll give an update soon.

[alinp]

As I recall, BR described both Suarez & Sturridge as 9 & a half's and in practice I'd say that they actually did both play very similar roles but both had the intelligence not to try and play in the same space the other was. They weren't really a "partnership", but as we know we're very effective. In FM terms I'd suggest that they therefore both should have the same role, but probably best split the duties. For me that makes them both CF's, one Attack, one Support. I agree Firmino is probably the best fit to take up one of those positions, even tho' he's definitely no Suarez!

Otherwise, how's your Coutinho role operating? Is he finding the kind of space he/Sterling did in reality? Personally I'd have him at AMC supporting the front 2.

[alinp]

With regard to the counter attacking question, I think they're better described as a high pressing, fast transition side at their best rather than a side that played on the counter. I'd suggest looking at the Art of Attacking thread for ideas on making this work.

[AllRed]

Thanks for the reply Alinp.

Coutinho is not getting as forward as I'd like him to, often when I'm watching the highlights he seems to drop in too deep or is never able to 'spring' forward when attacking. I'm considering pushing him into the AMC role in a support duty, so his starting position isn't behind the play constantly.

I feel a control / attacking will be required, I read the 'Art of Attacking' and its dispelled a few myths I believed, especially the conflicts between mentality and shape which can be detrimental if you aren't balancing the right ones. I'd always considered this a "Fluid" type formation but I was worried about the usual problem I get, which is bunching. When you noticed 3/4 players closing down one man yet none actually go in and make a tackle, which is frustrating as instead of closing off his options or winning the ball back, they just stand there around him and allow him space to pick another pass, leaving me exposed elsewhere.

But there is the conflict, as the more fluid we are the less lateral movement from my players there is, which I want

Lastly, the space down the sides. I know it's a side effect of playing the diamond, but even with the 3 in midfield, I don't feel they spread wide enough to close down either the fullbak or wideman. Even with my setup of playing wide.

[alinp]

In games you feel comfortable without a DM, you could push the DLP up to the CM strata, & hence the other 2 slightly wider. Heat maps from the time ( have a look at whoscored.com ) show average positions which look more like a 4-3-1-2.

Full backs - I've been experimenting with having a WBs on right and WBd on left - seems to be okay. Both support attacks as you'd expect wingbacks too, but don't over commit, hence providing a little more defensive cover.

Otherwise my set up is much as yours, although I'm playing Attack/Fluid + Closing Down Much More, Pass Into Space & Hit Early Crosses (I also have Low Crosses, but's that more a personal preference than whether it was their style), the 2 CF's as described earlier and an AM(S) at AMC.

[AllRed]

It's been a good September. Since adopting the 'attacking' mentality I'm starting to dominate the opposition a little more and pushing Coutinho up into the AMC position means he has been alot more dangerous. Henderson though is my highest rated player (7.74) and Berahino has been a goal machine (7 in 7 - all comps), mainly getting on the end of crosses providing by Clyne (5 assists - all comps). I've lowered the tempo, gone direct and adjusting to 'Control' when I've been leading and have been getting more quick counter-attacking moves, however its annoying that alot of Striker roles are restricted by 'Hold up Ball' PI with no choice to remove, which has caused them to break down annoyingly. Is there anyway to have a support duty without holding the ball up or do I have to just stick both ST's on attack?

Couldn't seem create enough chances against Leicester, I noticed their average positions were quite narrow and they play a defensive 442, probably should have gone 'work into box' to try to break them down.

But overall the tactic is working in one sense that its winning games and not conceding stupid goals that often to crosses, I'd just like a few more 'pretty' goals, maybe the odd through ball or 1-2 in a tight spot. Vardy has missed quite a few 1-on-1's though, which I don't seem to score many of but its no big deal.

[alinp]

Neither the F9 or DF have Hold up Ball - you could try one of those and see what happens.

[alinp]

There are a couple of options I try if up against a team that play deep and narrow...

1 switch to a 433 (gives me more natural width)

2 turn on Run at Defence (sometimes gets me a pen)

[AllRed]

Well it's been another decent month, knocked out the League Cup but not too bothered in that regards. Berahino is still banging them in and Clyne is an assist machine. The thing that's bothering me is that so many goals are coming from crosses, it feels like I'm sort of cheating a bit in that regard, but maybe its just an effective tactic I've put in place? On the other hand, I'm rarely conceding from those mad deep ones anymore (or it feels like it anyway)..

GOALS ANALYSIS

ASSIST ANALYSIS

All going swimmingly..

Here's the table, Everton are flying and Spurs are having a shocker!

Any tips on getting more assists from centre and attacking midfield? I could "Exploit Middle" but I play Wide so don't won't to compromise this, or is my idea of a variety of assist/goals mutually exclusive?