A High Intensity System Inspired by Schmidt's Leverkusen

[HaroldHammond]

Just wanted to say that this is a fantastic thread. Really engaging / informative.

I'm actually trying something similar with my Villa save right now. Had a similar 442 set up but currently toying with a 451 version that looks like this:

GK (D)

FB (S)

CD (D)

CD (D)

WB (S)

WM (A)

CM (s)

BWM (d)

CM (s)

WP (a)

F9

Playing Attacking, Fluid, Higher pressing, tight marking, stay on feet, higher tempo

It's early days but I hope there's something here. I worry a little about the lack of a cutting edge, but hoping the high mentality will counter this. We'll see.

This looks nice mate, keep me updated on how the f9 works on his own, can possible see a lack of penetration but we'll see!

[alinp]

That looks okay but i'd be worried about Can and coutinho getting in eachothers way

We won that game comfortably 3-1.

I've since made some other changes that seem to be working.

Dropping a player back to the DM line drops the d-line slightly, so to mitigate I've raised the d-line to Higher.

I've changed my MCR to CM(S), as in the OP

My DMCL is still an RGA but with added "hardness"

Bobby is now a Treq at AMCR

OI's (except the GK) to Tight Mark all and show on to their weaker foot.

Last 3 matches won 3-0, 4-2 & 3-0.

1 game left in the season and if results go my way, I could rescue top 10. Hopefully the board will be kind given we'll be in Europe next season thanks to the Capital One Cup win.

[alinp]

That looks okay but i'd be worried about Can and coutinho getting in eachothers way

Happily they don't. Can sits behind the attack and hangs around outside the box when attacking. Perhaps the Tight Marking PI is helping with this (something I seem to recall you surmised earlier).

The closest 2 in fact are Hendo now he's a CM(S) and Bobby as Treq at AMCR. Assuming I'm kept on, I'll see what the gaps look like with Bobby up top in a friendly.

[HaroldHammond]

Happily they don't. Can sits behind the attack and hangs around outside the box when attacking. Perhaps the Tight Marking PI is helping with this (something I seem to recall you surmised earlier).

The closest 2 in fact are Hendo now he's a CM(S) and Bobby as Treq at AMCR. Assuming I'm kept on, I'll see what the gaps look like with Bobby up top in a friendly.

Yeah probably the tight marking keeps him back. Thats what i was worrying about, with using the treq on the same side as the CMs. However I want the BWM on the same side as WPM and the CF on the opposite side to the winger so it's impossible to have CMs and Treq on different sides.

[alinp]

Yeah probably the tight marking keeps him back. Thats what i was worrying about, with using the treq on the same side as the CMs. However I want the BWM on the same side as WPM and the CF on the opposite side to the winger so it's impossible to have CMs and Treq on different sides.

Ha... yes, I've somewhat restricted myself by trying to do something realistic with a current squad, whereas I believe you're some way in the future, hence have that freedom.

Interestingly however, I have a similar system running in FMT on my iPad and have been playing a BWM(S) - with a couple of extra PI's - at MCR (still with the RGA at DMCL) and it seems to be okay.

[HaroldHammond]

Ha... yes, I've somewhat restricted myself by trying to do something realistic with a current squad, whereas I believe you're some way in the future, hence have that freedom.

Interestingly however, I have a similar system running in FMT on my iPad and have been playing a BWM(S) - with a couple of extra PI's - at MCR (still with the RGA at DMCL) and it seems to be okay.

Ah I see, good luck mate!

[nick1408]

I actually have been thinking of. Hanging the CMs in the last few days. With a playmaker on the left play is heavily focused there. I'm tossing between a few different options:

RP - the idea to do a bit of everything but may be caught out of position on the counter

DLPs - to give a. It of defensive cover while also providing the midfield link. May sit too deep though

APs - most likely option. Will need some PI's to make accountable but will sit in midfield with occasional forays forward

DLPd & BWMs - gamble but hope the combo gives me central balance of defence and aggressive closing down. May be the dark horse of midfield combos here.

Ill try try all and see what I am most happy with

[Azza2306]

Hi Mate

Really enjoyed reading this thread. I used to love 4-4-2 formations but along with the majority of people I have moved to a 4-2-3-1 and I have taken up the challenge of creating my own tactic for the first time. I am in my second season at Liverpool and my team currently looks like this

Gk - Defend (Throw to FB)

FB - Attack / CD - Cover / CD - Def / RB Attack

DLP - Def / BBM- Sup

W - Sup / AP - Att / IF - Att

CF - Sup

I tried to implement High Pressing but Ass Manager told me to take most of the instructions off. I did have High Defensive Line, Close Down More, Don't allow GK Distribution, Get Stuck in and also Very Wide but Exploit Middle.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

[alinp]

Hi Mate

Really enjoyed reading this thread. I used to love 4-4-2 formations but along with the majority of people I have moved to a 4-2-3-1 and I have taken up the challenge of creating my own tactic for the first time. I am in my second season at Liverpool and my team currently looks like this

Gk - Defend (Throw to FB)

FB - Attack / CD - Cover / CD - Def / RB Attack

DLP - Def / BBM- Sup

W - Sup / AP - Att / IF - Att

CF - Sup

I tried to implement High Pressing but Ass Manager told me to take most of the instructions off. I did have High Defensive Line, Close Down More, Don't allow GK Distribution, Get Stuck in and also Very Wide but Exploit Middle.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

If you want to play a style, go for it. If your assistant doesn't like it, turn him off and/or get a new one.

You don't have to take the assistants advice if you don't want to.

[Joe.]

I like this thread.. I'm a fan of the old school 4-4-2.

I don't currently have a save that I can get my teeth into, but I imagine this sort of tactic can be put to use with a team like Man Utd with everything essentially mirrored - though it'd leave some of their current, slower players a bit isolated. Might have to give it a go and tweak where I see necessary..

[HaroldHammond]

I actually have been thinking of. Hanging the CMs in the last few days. With a playmaker on the left play is heavily focused there. I'm tossing between a few different options:

RP - the idea to do a bit of everything but may be caught out of position on the counter

DLPs - to give a. It of defensive cover while also providing the midfield link. May sit too deep though

APs - most likely option. Will need some PI's to make accountable but will sit in midfield with occasional forays forward

DLPd & BWMs - gamble but hope the combo gives me central balance of defence and aggressive closing down. May be the dark horse of midfield combos here.

Ill try try all and see what I am most happy with

Let me know how the DLPd and BWMs goes, that's something that looks interesting.. Good luck!

Hi Mate

Really enjoyed reading this thread. I used to love 4-4-2 formations but along with the majority of people I have moved to a 4-2-3-1 and I have taken up the challenge of creating my own tactic for the first time. I am in my second season at Liverpool and my team currently looks like this

Gk - Defend (Throw to FB)

FB - Attack / CD - Cover / CD - Def / RB Attack

DLP - Def / BBM- Sup

W - Sup / AP - Att / IF - Att

CF - Sup

I tried to implement High Pressing but Ass Manager told me to take most of the instructions off. I did have High Defensive Line, Close Down More, Don't allow GK Distribution, Get Stuck in and also Very Wide but Exploit Middle.

Any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks

Thanks mate appreciate that:thup:

Looks an interesting system, but how does your DLP get on? The defensive responsibilities of your pivot are mainly going to be on the DLP with the BBM roaming, how do his playmaking responsibilities work?

I like this thread.. I'm a fan of the old school 4-4-2.

I don't currently have a save that I can get my teeth into, but I imagine this sort of tactic can be put to use with a team like Man Utd with everything essentially mirrored - though it'd leave some of their current, slower players a bit isolated. Might have to give it a go and tweak where I see necessary..

Thanks, I wasn't to begin with but my opinion has been changed! let me know how you get on mate:thup:

[alinp]

No but at the moment i'm trialling the DF as a treq, just to add a playmaker on the right hand side as well as the left, early stages though at the moment

How has this gone?

[Azza2306]

To be fair it wasn't very stable as I generally had 2 players holding up the middle but if the BBM was high up the pitch we got caught out. I have started using your system and beat Arsenal 3-0 which was a good start. I did notice a lot of long balls forward bypassing the midfield. Is this normal?

Also do you use OI's?

[Joe.]

Thanks, I wasn't to begin with but my opinion has been changed! let me know how you get on mate:thup:

So far, a bit mixed! I found that I was having a lot of shots on goal but not creating many genuinely good chances, so may have 25 shots in a game but only sneak a 1-0 win. Because of this, I've changed the CM(D) role to a Deep Lying Playmaker in order to make use of Carrick who has the ability to create some better goal scoring chances.

Rooney has been fantastic in the Defensive Forward role, but Martial is hit and miss alongside so I need to have to play about with that position.

Mata is pretty spot on for the WP(At) so I've got him on the right hand side with Depay on the left - who has been surprisingly average so far.

Defensively, I like it. I only ever seem to concede screamers, which is generally fair enough.

Fullbacks - because I've essentially flipped the formation, I feel I'm not making use of Shaw's ability to bomb forward and likewise I seem to be using Darmian in a role he isn't necessarily as comfortable with - but with the midfielders as they are, it doesn't really make sense to adjust them.

Overall, thus far (about 5 or 6 games in) I can see potential but do need to put a little more effort in for consistency. I've gone from beating Roma away in the CL to losing 3-0 against Southampton - though I think that's more my complacency than anything else!

[HaroldHammond]

How has this gone?

It wasn't too great, lacked a bit of penetration. I swapped the Treq to a Shadow striker and that is certainly a lot better. My best young player at the moment (currently at Young Boys trying to improve Swiss football) is a natural SS so looking to use this as the attacking duo going forward. Going well so far!

To be fair it wasn't very stable as I generally had 2 players holding up the middle but if the BBM was high up the pitch we got caught out. I have started using your system and beat Arsenal 3-0 which was a good start. I did notice a lot of long balls forward bypassing the midfield. Is this normal?

Also do you use OI's?

Probably give it a bit of time, get it to fluid, rarely get long balls when fully fluid (short passing TI). OIs I used to do but just leave it to my assistant now (15+ Tactical knowledge).

So far, a bit mixed! I found that I was having a lot of shots on goal but not creating many genuinely good chances, so may have 25 shots in a game but only sneak a 1-0 win. Because of this, I've changed the CM(D) role to a Deep Lying Playmaker in order to make use of Carrick who has the ability to create some better goal scoring chances.

Rooney has been fantastic in the Defensive Forward role, but Martial is hit and miss alongside so I need to have to play about with that position.

Mata is pretty spot on for the WP(At) so I've got him on the right hand side with Depay on the left - who has been surprisingly average so far.

Defensively, I like it. I only ever seem to concede screamers, which is generally fair enough.

Fullbacks - because I've essentially flipped the formation, I feel I'm not making use of Shaw's ability to bomb forward and likewise I seem to be using Darmian in a role he isn't necessarily as comfortable with - but with the midfielders as they are, it doesn't really make sense to adjust them.

Overall, thus far (about 5 or 6 games in) I can see potential but do need to put a little more effort in for consistency. I've gone from beating Roma away in the CL to losing 3-0 against Southampton - though I think that's more my complacency than anything else!

Sounds good mate. I came to young boys because they had a fantastic wide playmaker, but he was left footed, so I have also flipped the formation with the WPM on the left. Does the DLP slow the tempo down at all? That's what I would be worried about with that role. So far in Switzerland as consistency goes we've had runs of domination and then runs without a win, keep switching between the 2, maybe when I get the recruitment right after a few years the consistency will get a little better:thup:

Also is Memphis a winger for you?

Keep me updated!

[Joe.]

Sounds good mate. I came to young boys because they had a fantastic wide playmaker, but he was left footed, so I have also flipped the formation with the WPM on the left. Does the DLP slow the tempo down at all? That's what I would be worried about with that role. So far in Switzerland as consistency goes we've had runs of domination and then runs without a win, keep switching between the 2, maybe when I get the recruitment right after a few years the consistency will get a little better:thup:

Also is Memphis a winger for you?

Keep me updated!

Yes, using Memphis as a winger. On the left hand side the options are him, Lingard or Januzaj so I'm playing him a bit deeper to where he'd prefer to be. He's starting to get into it, and has scored a couple of beautiful efforts.

..and yes, the DLP does slow the play down a bit - that's still a role I'm trying to figure out and I keep swapping it back. I like that it adds a sense of composure to the game. I've half given up on making use of Carrick there though, instead preferring to partner Schweinsteiger with Schneiderlin/Blind to ensure I have a pretty combative midfield duo. I'm tempted to try out a Roaming Playmaker, but fear that'd leave my midfield far too open.. It'll be a matter of trial and error.

[alinp]

It wasn't too great, lacked a bit of penetration. I swapped the Treq to a Shadow striker and that is certainly a lot better. My best young player at the moment (currently at Young Boys trying to improve Swiss football) is a natural SS so looking to use this as the attacking duo going forward. Going well so far!

The SS role fits very well for Bobby Firmino in my save.

In other news, I've been fiddling about with the Can/Henderson pairing. I've gone back to the CM(S) for the Henderson role and using Can as a DLP(D) with Tackle Harder added. I know it gives me 2 play-makers on the same side, but at one's D and the other A they don't get in each others way, and actually combine pretty well.

I've made one other change - as Henderson drifts forward often, I've changed the CD behind him to a Stopper and removed the Close Down Less instruction. Not an amazing defence, but then I don't think you'll ever get that with this tactic, but does enough.

I'm also finding that dropping the Tempo back to Normal gives me more control - still playing on Attacking/Fluid so intensity is still present, as far as I can see.

[HaroldHammond]

Yes, using Memphis as a winger. On the left hand side the options are him, Lingard or Januzaj so I'm playing him a bit deeper to where he'd prefer to be. He's starting to get into it, and has scored a couple of beautiful efforts.

..and yes, the DLP does slow the play down a bit - that's still a role I'm trying to figure out and I keep swapping it back. I like that it adds a sense of composure to the game. I've half given up on making use of Carrick there though, instead preferring to partner Schweinsteiger with Schneiderlin/Blind to ensure I have a pretty combative midfield duo. I'm tempted to try out a Roaming Playmaker, but fear that'd leave my midfield far too open.. It'll be a matter of trial and error.

Does his footedness harm that role at all? I have also looked at RPM, and certainly may try it out this season as both players I have as CMs can play that role. Let me know if you try it out mate

The SS role fits very well for Bobby Firmino in my save.

In other news, I've been fiddling about with the Can/Henderson pairing. I've gone back to the CM(S) for the Henderson role and using Can as a DLP(D) with Tackle Harder added. I know it gives me 2 play-makers on the same side, but at one's D and the other A they don't get in each others way, and actually combine pretty well.

I've made one other change - as Henderson drifts forward often, I've changed the CD behind him to a Stopper and removed the Close Down Less instruction. Not an amazing defence, but then I don't think you'll ever get that with this tactic, but does enough.

I'm also finding that dropping the Tempo back to Normal gives me more control - still playing on Attacking/Fluid so intensity is still present, as far as I can see.

Yeah the reason I swapped to SS is because I have this guy coming through:

The playmakers seem interesting, i'm considering putting a RPM with a BWM as my pairing, and will be trying that out this season.

Does that defensive change not just swap the gap left by henderson with a gaping gap behind that centre back? If you do that I'd make sure to do it on the side of the full back, just to counter it slightly. As for the tempo, I'm looking for a system that genuinely does attack and throw forward quickly everytime we get it, does normal tempo give you that?

[jorgvandervloed]

Does his footedness harm that role at all? I have also looked at RPM, and certainly may try it out this season as both players I have as CMs can play that role. Let me know if you try it out mate

Yeah the reason I swapped to SS is because I have this guy coming through:

The playmakers seem interesting, i'm considering putting a RPM with a BWM as my pairing, and will be trying that out this season.

Does that defensive change not just swap the gap left by henderson with a gaping gap behind that centre back? If you do that I'd make sure to do it on the side of the full back, just to counter it slightly. As for the tempo, I'm looking for a system that genuinely does attack and throw forward quickly everytime we get it, does normal tempo give you that?

Very nice thread!! Everything is very well layed out and your decisions all make sense.

Just wondering as I dont use this tactic, would the SS still drop into midfield as the Defensive forward would on a support duty? As i've never used a SS but always been intrigued with the role. My guess would be that the SS would be high up the field and not really a connecting player between attack and midfield, but I could be dead wrong obviously:P What have you seen so far?

Looks like a talented fella btw, he's gonna make an impact when he develops a little further.

[HaroldHammond]

Very nice thread!! Everything is very well layed out and your decisions all make sense.

Just wondering as I dont use this tactic, would the SS still drop into midfield as the Defensive forward would on a support duty? As i've never used a SS but always been intrigued with the role. My guess would be that the SS would be high up the field and not really a connecting player between attack and midfield, but I could be dead wrong obviously:P What have you seen so far?

Looks like a talented fella btw, he's gonna make an impact when he develops a little further.

Thanks a lot mate He does drop slightly deeper yes. His starting position is more in the AM strata which is what you want for the link, it's the runs and positions he takes up when we are further forward with the ball that makes the SS role what it is. Here's an average position screenshot for a random game using the SS with a DF(s):

7 is the SS, 11 the DF(s), so not too much deeper but enough to give you that link I think. Another point on that, another link between the midfield and attack is actually part of the midfield itself. When we are in possession going forward the WPM can regularly be found in the AMCR area, giving us that link too.

For anyone that is wondering, here is the sytem I am now using/testing (not yet tested the RPM):

[jorgvandervloed]

My bad I figured you would still use the Complete Forward and changed the defensive forward. It all makes sense looking forward to see some results of this new tactic

[Azza2306]

It wasn't too great, lacked a bit of penetration. I swapped the Treq to a Shadow striker and that is certainly a lot better. My best young player at the moment (currently at Young Boys trying to improve Swiss football) is a natural SS so looking to use this as the attacking duo going forward. Going well so far!

Probably give it a bit of time, get it to fluid, rarely get long balls when fully fluid (short passing TI). OIs I used to do but just leave it to my assistant now (15+ Tactical knowledge).

Yeah that's what was surprising is that even with the short passing instruction on the still just kept kicking it long. I will keep an eye on it. Thanks

[HaroldHammond]

My bad I figured you would still use the Complete Forward and changed the defensive forward. It all makes sense looking forward to see some results of this new tactic

I think that would leave the CF exposed, and I still wanted the pressing of the DF. Again those don't let 'defensive' fool you, the guy can be a machine if you use him right:brock:

[HaroldHammond]

Yeah that's what was surprising is that even with the short passing instruction on the still just kept kicking it long. I will keep an eye on it. Thanks

Also are your midfield roles the same as mine? Any ppms like tries long balls?

[alinp]

Does that defensive change not just swap the gap left by henderson with a gaping gap behind that centre back? If you do that I'd make sure to do it on the side of the full back, just to counter it slightly. As for the tempo, I'm looking for a system that genuinely does attack and throw forward quickly everytime we get it, does normal tempo give you that?

I have the Stopper on the same side as the full back, plus I've been busy buying defenders with good "Quickness" stats as we're playing a high line by default, so not been a problem so far. What I have noticed is that the Stopper gets a lot of interceptions (which is nice ).

I've honestly not noticed any drop in intensity.

[Joe.]

Does his footedness harm that role at all? I have also looked at RPM, and certainly may try it out this season as both players I have as CMs can play that role. Let me know if you try it out mate

It seems to make him more inclined to cut inside and get it onto his stronger foot - he has scored some absolute blinders doing that. I'm in the process of training him to use both feet, as he isn't getting as many assists as I'd like.

Still yet to go with the RPM. The DLP role seems to working very nicely at the moment, though more so on a counter attacking mentality.. I find he brings the right back into play very nicely, acting as a pivot.. This allows other players to move about and get into the box.

[HaroldHammond]

I have the Stopper on the same side as the full back, plus I've been busy buying defenders with good "Quickness" stats as we're playing a high line by default, so not been a problem so far. What I have noticed is that the Stopper gets a lot of interceptions (which is nice ).

I've honestly not noticed any drop in intensity.

Hmm okay, I think the mentality just gives you that high tempo by default, maybe the high tempo is overkill, it just seemed like a necessity at the beginning..

It seems to make him more inclined to cut inside and get it onto his stronger foot - he has scored some absolute blinders doing that. I'm in the process of training him to use both feet, as he isn't getting as many assists as I'd like.

Still yet to go with the RPM. The DLP role seems to working very nicely at the moment, though more so on a counter attacking mentality.. I find he brings the right back into play very nicely, acting as a pivot.. This allows other players to move about and get into the box.

I've never had success training players' weak foots haha, do tell me if that works haha.. I tried the RPM and results weren't great, gone back to CMs for now. Interesting about the DLP, not a role i've thought of at all in a high tempo system. Glad to see it working well for you mate, are you still in a 4-4-2?

[Joe.]

I've never had success training players' weak foots haha, do tell me if that works haha.. I tried the RPM and results weren't great, gone back to CMs for now. Interesting about the DLP, not a role i've thought of at all in a high tempo system. Glad to see it working well for you mate, are you still in a 4-4-2?

Yea absolutely sticking to the 4-4-2, though the Defensive Forward and Treqartista in attack mvoe around a lot. Essentially my team is split with the right hand side offering a lot of creativity (DLP, T, WPM), and the left hand side being more direct/hard working (BWM, W, DF).

[HaroldHammond]

Yea absolutely sticking to the 4-4-2, though the Defensive Forward and Treqartista in attack mvoe around a lot. Essentially my team is split with the right hand side offering a lot of creativity (DLP, T, WPM), and the left hand side being more direct/hard working (BWM, W, DF).

Sound interesting, would you not wanna split the playmaking duties over the two sides?

[Joe.]

Sound interesting, would you not wanna split the playmaking duties over the two sides?

In theory yes, it wasn't an intentional split really but it seems to be working nicely so I'm not gonna shift it

[HaroldHammond]

In theory yes, it wasn't an intentional split really but it seems to be working nicely so I'm not gonna shift it

Fair enough mate haha:thup:

[bowieinspace]

Hey Harold.

As mentioned earlier in the thread I was keen to have a go at something similar to this when I started my new save on 16.3. I went with Gladbach and wanted to go back to 2 up front, in a high paced, high pressing style similar to what I'd been doing in a 4-2-3-1 in my Athletic save prior to this one. I love high intensity tactics so was really interested to see it in a 4-4-2 as I'd always leaned to having an extra man centrally.

I decided to use your ideas here as a baseline to work from, I gave it a fair bit of time and had some reasonable success with it, but I found the performances a little mixed. Gladbach are a good squad but obviously not the best squad in the league, so I found we sometimes got completely outplayed (often not by the big teams as well) and performances were a little inconsistent.

The area I started tweaking which I'd love to hear your thoughts on is the 'run at defence' shout. I was finding my players would often hold onto the ball and not make passes when I really wanted them to look for the pass. This happened sometimes around the box leading to long shots, or it happened when attacking the box, I found my players opting for the selfish option rather than the square ball across the box too often.

I decided to experiment by taking off the run at defence shout and selecting 'dribble less'. The idea being that I wanted by players to pass quickly rather than retain the ball and dribble in an effort to open up better spaces in the attacking 3rd and create better chances. I found this worked exceptionally well and it changed the pace of our attacks, it actually allowed me to slow the pace down to 'normal' and we were still playing faster than before. I still want the winger (A) and WP(A) to dribble, and their PI's make them do this anyway - but elsewhere, my other players move the ball around the pitch and open space much more effectively.

Is this something you had taken a look at yourself? I appreciate from the goals of your tactic it might not have been what was intended for the interpretation of Leverkusen, but I've found it's really helped us without stopping the key wide players from dribbling.

[nick1408]

Let me know how the DLPd and BWMs goes, that's something that looks interesting.. Good luck!

To be honest I tried it once and didn't like it. I have used the APs and BWMd combo all season and it has worked nicely. I like how it spreads the play more across the field. Also switched to a minimum-sized field. I think with a high pressing game a small field is important.

[HaroldHammond]

Hey Harold.

As mentioned earlier in the thread I was keen to have a go at something similar to this when I started my new save on 16.3. I went with Gladbach and wanted to go back to 2 up front, in a high paced, high pressing style similar to what I'd been doing in a 4-2-3-1 in my Athletic save prior to this one. I love high intensity tactics so was really interested to see it in a 4-4-2 as I'd always leaned to having an extra man centrally.

I decided to use your ideas here as a baseline to work from, I gave it a fair bit of time and had some reasonable success with it, but I found the performances a little mixed. Gladbach are a good squad but obviously not the best squad in the league, so I found we sometimes got completely outplayed (often not by the big teams as well) and performances were a little inconsistent.

The area I started tweaking which I'd love to hear your thoughts on is the 'run at defence' shout. I was finding my players would often hold onto the ball and not make passes when I really wanted them to look for the pass. This happened sometimes around the box leading to long shots, or it happened when attacking the box, I found my players opting for the selfish option rather than the square ball across the box too often.

I decided to experiment by taking off the run at defence shout and selecting 'dribble less'. The idea being that I wanted by players to pass quickly rather than retain the ball and dribble in an effort to open up better spaces in the attacking 3rd and create better chances. I found this worked exceptionally well and it changed the pace of our attacks, it actually allowed me to slow the pace down to 'normal' and we were still playing faster than before. I still want the winger (A) and WP(A) to dribble, and their PI's make them do this anyway - but elsewhere, my other players move the ball around the pitch and open space much more effectively.

Is this something you had taken a look at yourself? I appreciate from the goals of your tactic it might not have been what was intended for the interpretation of Leverkusen, but I've found it's really helped us without stopping the key wide players from dribbling.

Hey Bowie,

This is interesting because you're right, the wide players are the ones I want running at the defence and as you have said, PIs can make them do this. Moving the ball around quickly is something I defenitely want my team doing so it may be a great shout to tell them to dribble less, apart from the wide players and maybe a striker. Thanks for this input and I will certainly give it a thought going forward:thup:

To be honest I tried it once and didn't like it. I have used the APs and BWMd combo all season and it has worked nicely. I like how it spreads the play more across the field. Also switched to a minimum-sized field. I think with a high pressing game a small field is important.

That combo sounds decent, although I'd make sure the AP was on the opposite side to the WPM and DF if you have both of them. As for the pitch idea, this is something I haven't though of, good thinking mate:brock:

[che.]

The main defensive feature of Roger Schmidt's press is closing off the centre imo. Opponents have a tough time constructing plays through the middle. I can't achieve that with these tactics or any wide 4-4-2 really.

Did anybody try a narrow 4-2-2-2, moving the ML/R to AMC?

Instead of a WP/a or W/a I use an AP/s and an AM/s (with Move into Channels & Roam from Position).

This scares off opponents from trying to play through the centre and enables quick central attacking combinations.

FBs will not be marked but (with high Work Rate & max Closing Down) a AMC and an MC will be in position to press them, which is kinda how Leverkusen do it irl.

This also allows managing width via the appropiate TI (which never works for me when using the ML/R or AML/R positions). Winger duties can be performed by CWB/as.

Bellarabi is one heck of a CWB/a.

[alinp]

The main defensive feature of Roger Schmidt's press is closing off the centre imo. Opponents have a tough time constructing plays through the middle. I can't achieve that with these tactics or any wide 4-4-2 really.

Did anybody try a narrow 4-2-2-2, moving the ML/R to AMC?

Instead of a WP/a or W/a I use an AP/s and an AM/s (with Move into Channels & Roam from Position).

This scares off opponents from trying to play through the centre and enables quick central attacking combinations.

FBs will not be marked but (with high Work Rate & max Closing Down) a AMC and an MC will be in position to press them, which is kinda how Leverkusen do it irl.

This also allows managing width via the appropiate TI (which never works for me when using the ML/R or AML/R positions). Winger duties can be performed by CWB/as.

Bellarabi is one heck of a CWB/a.

Interesting... could you take off the Play Narrower TI, as the formation would now has a natural narrowness to it?

[HaroldHammond]

The main defensive feature of Roger Schmidt's press is closing off the centre imo. Opponents have a tough time constructing plays through the middle. I can't achieve that with these tactics or any wide 4-4-2 really.

Did anybody try a narrow 4-2-2-2, moving the ML/R to AMC?

Instead of a WP/a or W/a I use an AP/s and an AM/s (with Move into Channels & Roam from Position).

This scares off opponents from trying to play through the centre and enables quick central attacking combinations.

FBs will not be marked but (with high Work Rate & max Closing Down) a AMC and an MC will be in position to press them, which is kinda how Leverkusen do it irl.

This also allows managing width via the appropiate TI (which never works for me when using the ML/R or AML/R positions). Winger duties can be performed by CWB/as.

Bellarabi is one heck of a CWB/a.

Certainly interesting, currently giving a Cruyffian Diamond a go at the moment but let me know if that works:thup:

[che.]

Interesting... could you take off the Play Narrower TI, as the formation would now has a natural narrowness to it?

Of course. The narrow shape enables being flexible with regards to width. You can adjust to your opponent or according to the horizontal zones you want to play in. I start games with width on Balanced and Attacking Mentality atm. I adjust during games, for example I just went with Narrow vs a 4-3-1-2 Diamond to stop them playing through my midfield.

Certainly interesting, currently giving a Cruyffian Diamond a go at the moment but let me know if that works:thup:

Oh it does work.

With the correct settings (Mentality, Width, Player Roles, PIs) I can force the opponent wide and isolate his wingers or FBs well. They often resort to hopeless long balls from the wing, which are won by my defenders.

The important thing here is to have athletically superior defenders, especially in terms of pace. I have 6 players defending high up the pitch (2x BWM/s or 1xBWM/d + 1x RPM in midfield) and my defenders are forced into a lot of 1v1 duels and sprinting contests. Postioning and Marking are a lot less relevant than usually with this kind of press, which is why Bellarabi is an effective SB for me fo rexample.

I've had issues against a 4-3-1-2 Diamond and individually superior strikers & wingers. When the striker can sprint past my DC/c I have a problem. I lost 0:2 away to Bayern as Robben (ML) ran circles around Bellarabi (RB) and I had to shift an AMC to MR to double up on that flank (had enough chances to tie, though).

Unlike you I aim to mimic Roger Schmidt as closely as I can, though.

[HaroldHammond]

Of course. The narrow shape enables being flexible with regards to width. You can adjust to your opponent or according to the horizontal zones you want to play in. I start games with width on Balanced and Attacking Mentality atm. I adjust during games, for example I just went with Narrow vs a 4-3-1-2 Diamond to stop them playing through my midfield.

Oh it does work.

With the correct settings (Mentality, Width, Player Roles, PIs) I can force the opponent wide and isolate his wingers or FBs well. They often resort to hopeless long balls from the wing, which are won by my defenders.

The important thing here is to have athletically superior defenders, especially in terms of pace. I have 6 players defending high up the pitch (2x BWM/s or 1xBWM/d + 1x RPM in midfield) and my defenders are forced into a lot of 1v1 duels and sprinting contests. Postioning and Marking are a lot less relevant than usually with this kind of press, which is why Bellarabi is an effective SB for me fo rexample.

I've had issues against a 4-3-1-2 Diamond and individually superior strikers & wingers. When the striker can sprint past my DC/c I have a problem. I lost 0:2 away to Bayern as Robben (ML) ran circles around Bellarabi (RB) and I had to shift an AMC to MR to double up on that flank (had enough chances to tie, though).

Unlike you I aim to mimic Roger Schmidt as closely as I can, though.

Ah that's where we differ, my system was merely inspired. Glad to see you're getting something working though that's closer to him though.

[joaohstahl1]

Amazing!

I'm from Brazil and my english is not the best. But, I have to create an account just to congrat you.

I tried it in some clubs that I like... Gremio, Man Utd, Dortmund.

And works perfectly! Some little tweaks to adapt players and roles and all works really fine.

I play with the defenders in block function and works nice. Also allowed Roam from Position, and works good.

Usually played with a False 9 and a Poacher or Advanced Forward.

It's all good. Some games I struggle to score a goal. Dominate all the game, but poorly win, or even doesn't win.

I still trying to adapt some ideas. Tried a 4-2-3-1 and worked well, but I don't liked the way that the team played.

Now i'm looking for a system where the wide players does more infiltrations. As a 4-3-3 with the striker dropping deep and the wide players making diagonal runs without the ball to receive a through ball.

I'm new in the tactic creation thing, but I'm reading some things and testing. If someone have a suggestion to achieve the 4-3-3 tactic, please, let me know.

Again, amazing thread!

[HaroldHammond]

Amazing!

I'm from Brazil and my english is not the best. But, I have to create an account just to congrat you.

I tried it in some clubs that I like... Gremio, Man Utd, Dortmund.

And works perfectly! Some little tweaks to adapt players and roles and all works really fine.

I play with the defenders in block function and works nice. Also allowed Roam from Position, and works good.

Usually played with a False 9 and a Poacher or Advanced Forward.

It's all good. Some games I struggle to score a goal. Dominate all the game, but poorly win, or even doesn't win.

I still trying to adapt some ideas. Tried a 4-2-3-1 and worked well, but I don't liked the way that the team played.

Now i'm looking for a system where the wide players does more infiltrations. As a 4-3-3 with the striker dropping deep and the wide players making diagonal runs without the ball to receive a through ball.

I'm new in the tactic creation thing, but I'm reading some things and testing. If someone have a suggestion to achieve the 4-3-3 tactic, please, let me know.

Again, amazing thread!

Thanks mate it's great to read posts like that:thup: your changes sound interesting and are straying slightly away from the OP but i'm glad you're having success!

Welcome to tactic creation

[joaohstahl1]

Sorry, what means OP?

[begoodpam]

Sorry, what means OP?

Open post

[OLLMEISTER1]

Harold, im intrigued as to how you initiate your play from Leno? Do you play out through the FB/CB's or do you look to hit the WPA in Hakan Chalanoglu?

Im assuming its a short on the floor approach out from the back?

Regards

[HaroldHammond]

Harold, im intrigued as to how you initiate your play from Leno? Do you play out through the FB/CB's or do you look to hit the WPA in Hakan Chalanoglu?

Im assuming its a short on the floor approach out from the back?

Regards

Yeah we played on the floor to the defenders but then we looked for WPA asap. This just kept the ball a little more instead of giving it away trying to hit WPA from the keeper a few times.

[SpillBlood]

Great thread. I've not had success with 4 - 4 - 2 out of the lower leagues so I tried this with a couple of tweaks in the Europa League and it worked like a treat . Will see how it goes but nicely done!

[ozilthegunner]

Great thread!

I have also recently started playing a high intensity, high-pressing system, but with a different formation.

I am playing in the US with Sporting KC, who IRL play a 4-3-3 high intensity system.

I have been working to somewhat mimic this (but I am not concerned with perfectly mimicking, just getting most of the key ideas) and came up with a 4-5-1 that I am happy with right now (but still tweaking).

Since I only have one striker and no one in the AM strata, I place a CM on attack to get someone more advanced. So far the striker does not seem too isolated, but that is a bit of a worry. Here is the basic idea:

-----------------DF(s)-------------------

W(a)--CM(a)--BWM(d)--CM(s)--WP(a)

----WB(s)--CB(d)--CB(d)--FB(s)----

-----------------SK(a)-------------------

I actually flip the W and WP sides sometimes. Both starting wide players are capable of being either wingers or WPM on their respective sides, and the right winger is capable of playing on the left as well as the right (the left winger is currently only able to play on the left).

Attack mentality, fluid shape with many of the same TIs as the original system discussed here.

We certainly have lower passing completion percentage than with other tactics I have used, but create interesting chances and the play looks enjoyable.

I am also going to work on a 4-4-2 variant because my backup striker is a quality targetman and the current DF is quick so can play as an AF or P alongside the TM (or DLF).

[HaroldHammond]

Great thread. I've not had success with 4 - 4 - 2 out of the lower leagues so I tried this with a couple of tweaks in the Europa League and it worked like a treat . Will see how it goes but nicely done!

Glad to hear mate!

Great thread!

I have also recently started playing a high intensity, high-pressing system, but with a different formation.

I am playing in the US with Sporting KC, who IRL play a 4-3-3 high intensity system.

I have been working to somewhat mimic this (but I am not concerned with perfectly mimicking, just getting most of the key ideas) and came up with a 4-5-1 that I am happy with right now (but still tweaking).

Since I only have one striker and no one in the AM strata, I place a CM on attack to get someone more advanced. So far the striker does not seem too isolated, but that is a bit of a worry. Here is the basic idea:

-----------------DF(s)-------------------

W(a)--CM(a)--BWM(d)--CM(s)--WP(a)

----WB(s)--CB(d)--CB(d)--FB(s)----

-----------------SK(a)-------------------

I actually flip the W and WP sides sometimes. Both starting wide players are capable of being either wingers or WPM on their respective sides, and the right winger is capable of playing on the left as well as the right (the left winger is currently only able to play on the left).

Attack mentality, fluid shape with many of the same TIs as the original system discussed here.

We certainly have lower passing completion percentage than with other tactics I have used, but create interesting chances and the play looks enjoyable.

I am also going to work on a 4-4-2 variant because my backup striker is a quality targetman and the current DF is quick so can play as an AF or P alongside the TM (or DLF).

Yeah that's something you have to sacrifice, pass completion/possession for more exciting football and chances.

Love your work on Cruyff's diamond btw, I tried to do one myself following his death (reason for this thread being inactive), and it worked wonders in Switzerland but I've brought it over to Liverpool and although we've been okay, it's not been as successful as I'd thought, gonna switch back to this 4-4-2 I think.

Keep it up!

[summatsupeer]

...

Love your work on Cruyff's diamond btw, I tried to do one myself following his death (reason for this thread being inactive), and it worked wonders in Switzerland but I've brought it over to Liverpool and although we've been okay, it's not been as successful as I'd thought, gonna switch back to this 4-4-2 I think.

...

Check out my post in that thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/457703-Johan-Cruyff-s-3-4-3-Diamond-(Very-Fluid)?p=10827626&viewfull=1#post10827626

Flip it and that's what i'm using for season 1 Liverpool with no extra purchases. Currently 2nd in January and producing some lovely goals.

[HaroldHammond]

Check out my post in that thread: http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/457703-Johan-Cruyff-s-3-4-3-Diamond-(Very-Fluid)?p=10827626&viewfull=1#post10827626

Flip it and that's what i'm using for season 1 Liverpool with no extra purchases. Currently 2nd in January and producing some lovely goals.

Good to hear mate! Ever considered the WPM?