Do the player roles only affect the player instructions?

[talhak]

Hi guys,

As we know, sliders have gone and it will not come back which actually makes sense since there is no place for them IRL.

But I want to learn the real power of player roles. Do they only affect the player instructions - the screen I posted below - or they have some hidden effect on how players behave with/without ball:

As you know, once a time we had playermaker and target man selection to build the team around them, but now we are able to select multiple playermakers or target mans. So how can I construct the team to pass the ball to my playmaker to organize the attack? Is the advanced playmaker role enough for that?

[HUNT3R]

Your playmaker having a playmaker role will have the effect you're looking for. Players will look to pass to him more.

[talhak]

This means that the player roles include some other things apart from the instructions available in player instructions screen?

[HUNT3R]

That's exactly what it means. Playmakers and Target Men will have unique effects. The Half Back also has the unique ability to drop between the centrebacks in possession.

[talhak]

fair enough, thanks Hunt3r for making it clear. So the only way to instruct the playmaker to take long shots is teaching him to learn "take long shots" PPM since "shot more often" intruction is not available with Advanced Playermaker role.

[Cleon]

If you want a playmaker to be taking long shots then you've selected the wrong role imo. You either want him creating for others which is what a playmaker is or you want him to be selfish and shoot more often. It really doesn't make sense to want your playmaker to shoot more often. The odd time sure, but regular? Nah you need to change your role.

[talhak]

@Cleon,

Let me give you some real life examples of the role we discuss:

Gheorghe Hagi - the Romanian legend: He was the playmaker of Galatasaray who the team is built around & creates the chances for the team. But he is mostly known as scoring long range goals.

James Rodriguez: Especially during the world cup, he is the real life definition of Number 10. Gets deep to take the ball and creates chances for Colombia. But also he takes lots of long shots. (As we all know,

)

So if the playmaker role is not the answer; which role defines their responsibilities?

[Ivan787]

I think there are, in general, some concept that are not clear (sometimes I still do the same mistakes):

- FM is not real life. It's a simulation game, more or less accurated but is not real life. A human player has a feature called "instinct" that is impossible to replicate. You can try to emulate the basic principle but a software think about binary code, 1 or 0, probability, not as a human brain.

- "Relative": there is a beautiful thread of RAshidi about this. In FM terms all is relative, not absolute. Let me explain you with an example: in my Arsenal save I play Ramsey as DLP and is the player with most passes completed of the team. Is expected. If I use him as B2B he is still the players with most passes completed and received, also if I have a DLP behind him. Why? Because due to my system and his attributes he'is able to make himself available to receive a pass. Often more available than DLP.

What this means? This means that the most important thing is what you want from your player, not the role you select. A playmaker role means that other players have more probability to pass him the ball, not they ONLY want to pass the ball to him; if there are another player free available in better position probably they decide to bypass the playmaker.

A behaviour is done of Role, PPM, system, PI and TI so, based on what you want for James, probably in AMC position a AM/S or AM/A with "come deeps to get the ball" as PPM, more risky passes and shoot more often is not so different from a playmaker that take shoots.

But remember that all is relative not absolute here.

[Cleon]

@Cleon,

Let me give you some real life examples of the role we discuss:

Gheorghe Hagi - the Romanian legend: He was the playmaker of Galatasaray who the team is built around & creates the chances for the team. But he is mostly known as scoring long range goals.

James Rodriguez: Especially during the world cup, he is the real life definition of Number 10. Gets deep to take the ball and creates chances for Colombia. But also he takes lots of long shots. (As we all know,

)

So if the playmaker role is not the answer; which role defines their responsibilities?

You're wrong about Rodriguez. He's known for holding up the ball and playing through balls, as well as clocking up key passes, as well as being an exceptional passer during the world cup. Just because he scored a long ranged effort doesn't mean he does them constantly and if you think that he took lots of long ranges shots or did it regular then I don't think you watched much of what he actually did in the world cup. If you look at his stats from the world cup you will see he had 17 shots in the whole of the competition, which equals just over 4 a game and not all of those were long ranged either.

The key thing to remember is that on FM a player will still shoot from range if he thinks it's the right option. But ultimately if you want a player to take long shots regular (that's the vital thing to remember here)then I'd forget all the playmaking roles as it goes against what they offer and look at other roles, to see if they provide what you want.

[talhak]

You're wrong about Rodriguez. He's known for holding up the ball and playing through balls, as well as clocking up key passes, as well as being an exceptional passer during the world cup. Just because he scored a long ranged effort doesn't mean he does them constantly and if you think that he took lots of long ranges shots or did it regular then I don't think you watched much of what he actually did in the world cup. If you look at his stats from the world cup you will see he had 17 shots in the whole of the competition, which equals just over 4 a game and not all of those were long ranged either.

The key thing to remember is that on FM a player will still shoot from range if he thinks it's the right option. But ultimately if you want a player to take long shots regular (that's the vital thing to remember here)then I'd forget all the playmaking roles as it goes against what they offer and look at other roles, to see if they provide what you want.

I have watched all games of him since the World Cup including his performances in Spain; he has an eye to goal & regularly takes long shots as many as possible. Here is the proof of it:

According to OptaJose, there's no player in the Top 5 Leagues with more goals from outside the box than James since arriving Madrid.

Anyway our focus is not James Rodriguez - what I want is really clear. Think a playmaker who is really good at taking long shots apart from being exceptional passer. Why not? Someone who is the brain of the team & also takes long shots since he is good at that.

[herne79]

Just use the Trequartista role (which is still defined as a playmaker type of role) and add in the PI Shoot More Often.

Alternatively, use the Attacking Midfielder role with PIs to Shoot More Often and More Risky Passes.

Personally I think playmaker roles who are told to shoot more often is counter-intuitive in FM terms. Telling them to shoot more often could detract from their primary function of providing that killer pass to unlock a defence.

[Cleon]

I have watched all games of him since the World Cup including his performances in Spain; he has an eye to goal & regularly takes long shots as many as possible. Here is the proof of it:

According to OptaJose, there's no player in the Top 5 Leagues with more goals from outside the box than James since arriving Madrid.

Anyway our focus is not James Rodriguez - what I want is really clear. Think a playmaker who is really good at taking long shots apart from being exceptional passer. Why not? Someone who is the brain of the team & also takes long shots since he is good at that.

Scoring long range shots is not the same as taking long shots regular though. You only have to use the same opta Joe stats to see how many he actually does from range, I'm surprised you didn't provide that bit of info? You are talking as if the amount scored from outside the box equals the same as taking long shots regular. There not mutually exclusive.

How can someone (in FM terms) be the brains of the team when he's shooting from distance more regular and ignoring others in better placed areas? I think you're wanting 2 different things here. If you want someone who is the brains of the team then you want a playmaker. If you want someone who shoots very often, then you want a more attack minded selfish player like an attacking midfielder with some PI's. I honestly can't see the use of a playmaker for what you are wanting would serve, it's counter-intuitive.

Remember you're not asking them to be good at long shots or you'd be focusing on that attribute and the other relevant ones for this action as that determines if someone is good at it or not. But when you use the shoots more often PI then you are instructing him to shoot more from range. This doesn't make the player good at it, you're just instructing him to do this particular action often. He could not have this instruction and still be deadly from outside of the box when he decides that's the right option rather than you forcing the option to shoot more.

[wpmk]

Think we're nitpicking at the guy for wanting a role that commands attention for the ball but also makes use of his player's long shooting ability, which is totally justifiable in my opinion.

Herne79's suggestions seem like a good place to start, particularly the Treq as the main creative outlet. Everything else is superfluous.

[Guest]

Think we're nitpicking at the guy for wanting a role that commands attention for the ball but also makes use of his player's long shooting ability, which is totally justifiable in my opinion.

Herne79's suggestions seem like a good place to start, particularly the Treq as the main creative outlet. Everything else is superfluous.

Because he is suggesting he wants his players to do what Hagi and James does but a AP as it is will already do that. The stats he himself posted shows that James scores a few but with limited attempts at goal. It's pretty much already what a good AP with an ability to be accurate from range can do already.

Edit: My AP hit 7 goals last season , 6 were from range but as and when he decided not because he hit loads and loads from distance.

[Cleon]

Because he is suggesting he wants his players to do what Hagi and James does but a AP as it is will already do that. The stats he himself posted shows that James scores a few but with limited attempts at goal. It's pretty much already what a good AP with an ability to be accurate from range can do already.

This sums it up perfectly. It's not nitpicking, it's trying to get the OP to see that he already offers all these things. But if he wants to increase the frequency of shots then he has to change the role no two ways about it.

[talhak]

Scoring long range shots is not the same as taking long shots regular though. You only have to use the same opta Joe stats to see how many he actually does from range, I'm surprised you didn't provide that bit of info? You are talking as if the amount scored from outside the box equals the same as taking long shots regular. There not mutually exclusive.

No, the right answer is that this is all I have; so I am not able to show stats how many shoots he takes from range (I have found this image from my liked tweets - did not do a specific research). No any other reason. As I said our focus is not James Rodriguez or Hagi. There are many other real examples of the case I say.

Because he is suggesting he wants his players to do what Hagi and James does but a AP as it is will already do that. The stats he himself posted shows that James scores a few but with limited attempts at goal. It's pretty much already what a good AP with an ability to be accurate from range can do already.

Edit: My AP hit 7 goals last season , 6 were from range but as and when he decided not because he hit loads and loads from distance.

Exactly this is what I want to say.

[ozilthegunner]

No, the right answer is that this is all I have; so I am not able to show stats how many shoots he takes from range (I have found this image from my liked tweets - did not do a specific research). No any other reason. As I said our focus is not James Rodriguez or Hagi. There are many other real examples of the case I say.

Exactly this is what I want to say.

Okay, so it looks like through all this things became clear, but let's just recount what we learned:

1) Cleon was noting that the very stat picture you posted showed that James does not take a lot of long shots; he is just efficient when he does.

2) That then, combined with the anecdotal evidence from Crazy_Ivan is showing you that an AP is exactly what you are after - a creative force who, when it makes sense, will take shots. He will not, however, be looking for the shot as his primary option (as a player would if 'shoot more often' were ticked) but as just an option along with others.

Its odd it took so many posts to just tell the guy a simple thing (although plenty of people clearly hinted at it)

[swansongs]

Think we're nitpicking at the guy for wanting a role that commands attention for the ball but also makes use of his player's long shooting ability, which is totally justifiable in my opinion.

The culture on this forum is to tell someone they're wrong for wanting what they want rather than helping them achieve it, or explaining that the option is unfortunately not available.

[Guest]

The culture on this forum is to tell someone they're wrong for wanting what they want rather than helping them achieve it, or explaining that the option is unfortunately not available.

How is that? He explained what he wanted, he used an example and we have pointed out he potentially has that already based on that very example.

Cleon mentioned using another role instead if shooting a lot was what he wanted but as has been pointed out an advanced playmaker with good decision making and an ability to hit them from range can achieve exactly what the op wants to achieve.

[swansongs]

Anyway our focus is not James Rodriguez.

The example that was so aggressively disproved was not the original point of discussion. The OP was asked to justify his request and then shouted down rather than answered in good faith.

A better example might have been Gareth Bale when playing for Wales. The team acts with him as a focal point for passing (the playmaker effect) but his game isn't to set up chances for other players, but run with the ball and shoot himself (not the playmaker roles).

Trequartista is an option for this, but before that suggestion was made we get "If you want a playmaker to be taking long shots then you've selected the wrong role imo. You either want him creating for others which is what a playmaker is or you want him to be selfish and shoot more often."

[SperoM]

There's always the option of playing him as an AM and then giving him PIs to act like an AP, but ask him to shoot from range more. Then you could also use the TI 'exploit the middle' to focus the play through that channel so he sees more of the ball.

[talhak]

Thanks guys for your constructive replies, appreciated a lot The easiest thing to be done looks like making "Shoot more often" PI available for playermakers in the future versions.

An attacking midfielder with "Shoot more often" PI does not/must not replace the advanced playermaker role in my opinion since they are completely different roles with different responsibilities.

[swansongs]

There's always the option of playing him as an AM and then giving him PIs to act like an AP, but ask him to shoot from range more. Then you could also use the TI 'exploit the middle' to focus the play through that channel so he sees more of the ball.

Exploit the middle could be a good way to replicate the directed approach the playmaker roles provide, yeah.

[HUNT3R]

Thanks guys for your constructive replies, appreciated a lot The easiest thing to be done looks like making "Shoot more often" PI available for playermakers in the future.

At the risk of repeating Cleon here, then he's not a playmaker anymore. A playmaker is a specific role who primarily creates chances for others. Teammates will seek him out so that he can do this. If his role is able to be tweaked to make him shoot half the time, he's not making plays anymore.

Playmaker by default are instructed to shoot rarely and I don't see this changing in future. They are given a lot of Creative Freedom though, so if they do decide that a shot is on, they can take it. Someone like Rodriguez also has the tendency to shoot from range, so that'll help. Then there's also the option of fielding a selfish player in that role who will do his own thing more than others.

[swansongs]

At the risk of repeating Cleon here, then he's not a playmaker anymore. A playmaker is a specific role who primarily creates chances for others. Teammates will seek him out so that he can do this. If his role is able to be tweaked to make him shoot half the time, he's not making plays anymore.

You can still want some of the hardcoded mechanical effects of playmaker roles in the match engine without wanting the traditional concept of a "Playmaker" in your side, though. That's the issue at hand.

He's not a playmaker any more? So what? It could still be an effective way to play football.

[Guest]

I actually now think this forum has become something beyond me, more read than interact. Apologies for xxxxing anyone off.

[HUNT3R]

He's not a playmaker any more? So what? It could still be an effective way to play football.

If he's not a playmaker anymore, then he's not doing what his role, role description and the key attributes in FM suggest that he should do. What's the point of having roles then? As was suggested, you can always select a less specialist role and adjust to what you need. A playmaker should always retain that identity as a playmaker; A Poacher must always be a Poacher etc. otherwise roles in the game will have no meaning.

[swansongs]

If he's not a playmaker anymore, then he's not doing what his role, role description and the key attributes in FM suggest that he should do. What's the point of having roles then? As was suggested, you can always select a less specialist role and adjust to what you need. A playmaker should always retain that identity as a playmaker; A Poacher must always be a Poacher etc. otherwise roles in the game will have no meaning.

You can't select a less specialist role and adjust the "pass to me" element of the playmaker if that's the only part you want, though.

Unlike Player Instructions it is a hidden element only available with specific instruction sets.

[HUNT3R]

You can't select a less specialist role and adjust the "pass to me" element of the playmaker if that's the only part you want, though.

You can still channel play to the area of the pitch he's in, ie left, right or middle so provided he's in space, he'll get the ball often. Playmakers also tend to come toward the ball, a tendency often forgotten about.

I also like how the Trequartista and Enganche has been somehow overlooked. They're also playmakers but more all-round and both have the ability to shoot less (like playmakers), sometimes or more often.

[swansongs]

I also like how the Trequartista and Enganche has been somehow overlooked. They're also playmakers but more all-round and both have the ability to shoot less (like playmakers), sometimes or more often.

I don't like that they were overlooked in favour of telling someone they were wrong for even wanting such options.

[HUNT3R]

I don't like that they were overlooked in favour of telling someone they were wrong for even wanting such options.

The question was about the advanced playmaker role. It's more of a 'traditional' playmaker type and very much focused on creating chances for others. I'd actually argue that the default (sometimes) is fine on the Enganche and Treq, but I don't think shooting more often should be available for a playmaker.

[noikeee]

I agree this forum is getting a bit too aggressive lately towards people who dare suggest the tactics creator and/or the match engine is not perfect, or suggest improvements. This is natural to some extent, because so many people come into here and blame the game endlessly before stopping to think what might be wrong with their tactics or logic.

But I think what he's asking is an entirely legitimate interpretation of what he wants from a player, regardless of whether that's playing like James or Hagi or whoever. Choose the advanced playmaker role and he's hardcoded to shoot less often. Choose the advanced midfielder role and he won't attract the ball like a playmaker. Choose the trequartista role and that comes with an entirely different level of creative freedom and the penalty of working less hard defensively. The only way I can think of to replicate that, is to make him the AP and teach him the "shoots from distance" PPM.

I think we have a limitation in the tactics creator UI. Remember we have 3 levels for each PI: rarely, mixed or often (as in the slider days). Currently, there are a few options when the roles interact with the PIs:

- a PI is indifferent to the role, by default it's on mixed, but you can select it to "more often" or "less often"

- a PI is on mixed by default, but you can turn on one of the options and not the other - ex: you can give "dribble less" to a DLP but not "dribble more"

- a PI is hardcoded to one of the extremes and you can't turn it off - ex: the playmaker roles are hardcoded on default to "shoot less often" but you can't move it even to mixed.

We don't have the alternative of it being by default on one of the extremes, but the user being able to tweak it into mixed. Which is what I think makes most sense in this case - most playmakers indeed don't shoot very often, so having "shoot less often" by default is right, but why not let the user boost it to mixed?

Unfortunately I've no idea how could this look like in the UI without looking confusing. Whether it's worth redesigning the UI or the tactics creator for very specific cases like this... it's debatable. I think it's not the only case though. Another common complaint is that you can't do much tweaking to a complete forward - what if you want to your forward to do everything a CF does except "play more risky passes". Etc. It's fine that we have roles, but why not a tiny bit more freedom in going a little further away from roles.

[Dr. Hook]

There is a simple solution to this and that is to make generic, customizable roles for each position. Leave the existing ones in as templates or for those who want them, but have a user-designed role where targetman, playmaker can be ticked as before, and all instructions available save those that are in contradiction to one another. Until that time, though, we are limited to what we have and have to accept that it isn't perfect.

[idioteque3]

That's exactly what it means. Playmakers and Target Men will have unique effects. The Half Back also has the unique ability to drop between the centrebacks in possession.

So are non-playmakers (excluding TM an HB) essentially behaving like the "standard-setting" for the position, only with added player instructions? e.g. Is a WM identical to a winger if you use the same PIs a winger has activated by default?

[MaestroIsco]

Just have him learn the PPM "Shoots from distance"

[MaestroIsco]

Also the idea that a playmaker isn't a playmaker if he shoots more often, is absolutely laughable.

[Dr. Hook]

Also the idea that a playmaker isn't a playmaker if he shoots more often, is absolutely laughable.

A player can still be a playmaker and shoot more often. That is what happens with a generic CM role, for example if the player has the attributes etc. What we are talking about here are the roles in the game. The playmaker role is a defined role which has players pass more and shoot far less. If you want a playmaker to make plays and take more shots, don't use the playmaker role. What is helpful is not to think about the roles as something you *have* to use to get a certain behavior out of a player, because you don't. If you have a creative playmaking midfielder in your team, it does not automatically follow that you must use a playmaker role in order for him to do what you want.

[swansongs]

A player can still be a playmaker and shoot more often. That is what happens with a generic CM role, for example if the player has the attributes etc. What we are talking about here are the roles in the game. The playmaker role is a defined role which has players pass more and shoot far less. If you want a playmaker to make plays and take more shots, don't use the playmaker role. What is helpful is not to think about the roles as something you *have* to use to get a certain behavior out of a player, because you don't. If you have a creative playmaking midfielder in your team, it does not automatically follow that you must use a playmaker role in order for him to do what you want.

Obviously we don't need playmakers to "make plays".

They're used to attract the ball. That's the distinct and extremely useful mechanical effect of the playmaker roles in this game.

[Dr. Hook]

Obviously we don't need playmakers to "make plays".

They're used to attract the ball. That's the distinct and extremely useful mechanical effect of the playmaker roles in this game.

I know how it works, and I am not sure what your point here is. If the role shot more often, then what would become of it? It would be a ball attractant that shot more than it should because it would see more of the ball. Then people would be moaning that it shoots too much and doesn't make plays. It is far from laughable from a design standpoint.

[Os]

Also the idea that a playmaker isn't a playmaker if he shoots more often, is absolutely laughable.

I concur, Platini, Hoddle for the elders.

Eriksen shoots loads and is certainly my team Spurs playmaker.

[Cleon]

Shame the game doesn't work like real life though, so comparing playmakers and how they act in real life, to how the game is programmed is pretty silly. Both are totally different things and the game has hardcoded behaviours for the playmaking roles which makes the playmaker role diluted and totally changes its purpose if you make him shoot more. He is no longer a playmaker if he does this in FM terms (which is the important thing here).

[Justified]

If I were to throw my 2 cents into the ring here.

In the example of James Rodriguez, in FM terms, is set up as an Advanced Playmaker and with his PPM's and high creative freedom (as per the role) will shoot from distance. PPM's are a tendency and both Hagi and Rodriguez in this respect had a tendency to try and decide games with long range shots.

Right so say for instance in my team, Bath City in this moment, I have an Estonian AMC who at Vanarama level is quite similar to Rodriguez. Obviously he doesn't have high 16's in attributes but for this level would be a very similar player. Now if I was to, in FM terms, want him to play like Rodriguez without the PPM's I'd have to select the Attacking Midfielder role with more Risky Passing. He won't play exactly like Rodriguez but that's the closest I'll get unless I train his PPM to try long shots to which I can then change him back to a Adavnaced Playmaker.

The point I'm trying to make is you need to view roles like Wide Midfielder, Attacking Midfielder, Central Midfielder, Full Back etc etc as sort of generic roles that you can tweak to get a certain behavior similar to other roles/real life examples. They won't be spot on but then if I ask my AMR to play like Messi will he play exactly like Messi does? At this level he'll look the fool if he tried...