How To Win Against Defensive Sides ?

[yatamayanadam]

Everybody knows it is difficult to beat against a Defensive side.

To beat a Defensive side; first, you must understand their playing style.

Space is the most important thing in football. Defenders must defend and hold opposition away and attackers must use to exploit opposition.

It is difficult to beat Defensive sides because they don't give any space to the opponent. So if there is no space, how can Attacking team score?

So let's see what we can do;

-They play Narrower mostly (i can be wrong; i didn't see wider playing defensive teams in the game) because they must be solid and compact. => Guess what? They are weak on "Wide Play". Because if a player comes to press your winger to a wider area, then there will be a space to exploit for one of your players.

-They play Narrower. If you use Short Passing option, they will successfully beat your team's playmaking ability. Because short passing means Narrow Play and they are Narrower then your players.

-"Play out of Defence" doesn't work also. Because they are not pressing too much in your half. And you can not evade any of them.

-So you "can" use Mixed or Direct Passing options. Mixed for Retaining Position and exploiting little space and the other one is exploiting every possible space. I don't use "Go Route One" from the start of the game. If nothing goes well, i can use it to the last 10 minutes.

-Defensive sides play Low Tempo. So you "can" play Higher Tempo or Much Higher Tempo. Because we should tire them to make mistakes.

-You can play with "Higher" or "Much Higher Defensive Line". Because they don't attack you if you don't do this and if they don't attack; they don't give too much space.

-They are too fast when attacking. You "can" Counter their Counter Attacking skills. you can Counter them with "Pass Into Space". Also you must use Offside Trap to cut their passing chances.

Those informations will make your side stronger to beat Defensive sides i hope.

I want to add something... Every opponent you score against and get the lead; makes those 3 changes;

- +1 Tempo

- +1 Defensive Line

- +1 Pressing

If they can't score; they can get those levels higher.

With opposition's in game changes, they will give you what you want. ( SPACE )

Exploit those spaces with "direct passing" and "Pass Into Space".

Good Luck.

[Cleon]

-They play Narrower at all times because they must be solid and compact. => Guess what? They are weak on "Wide Play". Because if a player comes to press your winger to a wider area, then there will be a space to exploit for one of your players.

It depends on the shape they use that determines if they are weak on wide play.

-They play Narrower. If you use Short Passing option, they will successfully beat your team's playmaking ability. Because short passing means Narrow Play and they are Narrower then your players.

Not true at all.

-"Play out of Defence" doesn't work also. Because they are not pressing too much in your half. And you can not evade any of them.

Play out of defence isn't about evading the opposition, it's about not being wasteful and building from the back. Even against defensives sides you still can build from the back and be probing patiently.

-So you must use Mixed or Direct Passing options. Mixed for Retaining Position and exploiting little space and the other one is exploiting every possible space. I don't use "Go Route One" from the start of the game. If nothing goes well, i can use it to the last 10 minutes.

Again this is not true. You do not have to use these at all. Going route one against a defensive side? I have to question you here as I don't think you understand what you're doing at all.

-Defensive sides play Low Tempo. So you must play Higher Tempo or Much Higher Tempo. Because we must tire them to make mistakes.

Nope you don't. You can play any tempo you wish. It's creating space, movement and having support that is key. Tempo doesn't matter.

-You must play with "Higher" or "Much Higher Defensive Line". Because they don't attack you if you don't do this and if they don't attack; they don't give too much space.

Stop saying you must because this is not true. It's all about the system you created and not an individual instruction that determines how well you will do against these sides. You can still play deep. There is no rules or one size fits all approach like you seem to be claiming here.

-They are too fast when attacking. You must Counter their Counter Attacking skills. you can Counter them with "Pass Into Space". Also you must use Offside Trap to cut their passing chances.

Pass into space doesn't counter counter attacking skills. All it does is increase through balls. Also using the offside trap can be risky and you should use it with caution as it can increase the oppositions counter attacking skills if one player gets it wrong.

I want to add something... Every opponent you score against and get the lead; makes those 3 changes;

- +1 Tempo

- +1 Defensive Line

- +1 Pressing

No just no. Why?

My point is, there are many different ways to beat teams and not one set way. Saying things like 'you must' play this way etc is misleading because you've not once took into consideration the different scenarios that can happen or without knowing the users style of play. It's all about the context of things that determine how you can beat teams that are defensive. You've tried to make it a one fits all approach but it doesn't work like that.

[JaYmZeE]

Hit them with your rythem stick!

[yatamayanadam]

I'm not expert in this game like you Cleon but i just wrote about what i saw in the game.

Sorry for my bad english languaging abilities. I should use "CAN" instead of "MUST". You're right.

These informations can help players to beat defensive sides. They can beat them with short passing option but it'll be too hard to do. They need some luck.

[yatamayanadam]

Thanks first for the reply Cleon. I needed to explain my thoughts. So i wrote down a bit.

-Did you see any team using a wider shape with defensive mentality in the game?

-If yes, What did you do to beat them? I think some mixed type of short and direct passing can be useful. With "pass into space" TI. I want to hear your thoughts.

-I think "Play out of Defence" can be useful when opponent is not playing defensive. If the opponent uses an attacking mentality with high pressing then i think "play out of defence" can be dangerous. If the opponent uses defensive style i can also use short or mixed passing PI to my Ball Playing Defenders and shorter passing PI to GK instead of "play out of defence". Maybe i'm wrong but these things helped me well.

-I don't use "Go Route One" option. I just mentioned it "if there was no way to beat the opponents defence, i would try my last chance to score" but I haven't needed to use that crazy option ever.

-Tempo matters also every area of the game; not just creativity, movement and support matters, i think. With higher tempo players have more movement and more supportive to each other depending on to selected roles and duties. Also they can be more creative with higher tempo. I saw this in the game. Low tempo can help to beat defensive sides but higher tempo can be helpful. Am i wrong?

-Playing with deep defensive line can help your team against defensive side's through balls but not crosses. Because with deep d-line they can have some space in front of defence. Maybe we should try to be balanced when selecting defensive line.

Why i use high defensive lines; because i want the defensive team to attack my team more. Because if they attack more, they will give more space. It is too risky to play with a high d-line and an offside trap yes; but it is helpful to me to win matches like this.

-I use "pass into space" option to exploit the space which the opposition players leave when they attack. I wanted to tell this with "Counter their Counter Attacking".

" +1 Tempo

+1 Defensive Line

+1 Pressing "

This is what i saw in the game also: If my team scores and gets the lead, the opponent team goes more aggressive to score. I thought they changed their tempo and pressing. d-line change is later maybe i didn't saw too much.

Those are my analysis with my thoughts. Players can try these options.

I tried to explain with my bad english. Sorry for that.

[OrientTillIDie]

My replies are in bold.

Thanks first for the reply Cleon. I needed to explain my thoughts. So i wrote down a bit.

-Did you see any team using a wider shape with defensive mentality in the game? It varies. Different teams set up differently. You have to be adaptable.

-If yes, What did you do to beat them? I think some mixed type of short and direct passing can be useful. With "pass into space" TI. I want to hear your thoughts. Very vague. Contradicted your original post. Again, it depends on who you're playing.

-I think "Play out of Defence" can be useful when opponent is not playing defensive. If the opponent uses an attacking mentality with high pressing then i think "play out of defence" can be dangerous. If the opponent uses defensive style i can also use short or mixed passing PI to my Ball Playing Defenders and shorter passing PI to GK instead of "play out of defence". Maybe i'm wrong but these things helped me well. Yes, if a team if pressing high up the pitch then clearly playing out of defence is risky.

-I don't use "Go Route One" option. I just mentioned it "if there was no way to beat the opponents defence, i would try my last chance to score" but I haven't needed to use that crazy option ever. It's not crazy if you have the right players for it.

-Tempo matters also every area of the game; not just creativity, movement and support matters, i think. With higher tempo players have more movement and more supportive to each other depending on to selected roles and duties. Also they can be more creative with higher tempo. I saw this in the game. Low tempo can help to beat defensive sides but higher tempo can be helpful. Am i wrong? How can you be wrong if you literally cover every option? Yes, low tempo can help to draw defensive sides out of position. Equally, playing with a higher tempo can tire them out.

-Playing with deep defensive line can help your team against defensive side's through balls but not crosses. Because with deep d-line they can have some space in front of defence. Maybe we should try to be balanced when selecting defensive line. Again, contradicting your first post just because Cleon took apart what you said. What do you actually believe?

Why i use high defensive lines; because i want the defensive team to attack my team more. Because if they attack more, they will give more space. It is too risky to play with a high d-line and an offside trap yes; but it is helpful to me to win matches like this.

-I use "pass into space" option to exploit the space which the opposition players leave when they attack. I wanted to tell this with "Counter their Counter Attacking". It depends on the team but I find that passing into space is more useful when playing direct. Except I wouldn't want to play direct against a team sitting deep because there's no space in behind.

" +1 Tempo

+1 Defensive Line

+1 Pressing "

This is what i saw in the game also: If my team scores and gets the lead, the opponent team goes more aggressive to score. I thought they changed their tempo and pressing. d-line change is later maybe i didn't saw too much.

Those are my analysis with my thoughts. Players can try these options.

I tried to explain with my bad english. Sorry for that.

[yatamayanadam]

" It depends on the team but I find that passing into space is more useful when playing direct. Except I wouldn't want to play direct against a team sitting deep because there's no space in behind. "

I want to explain why i use "pass into space" with high d-line option against a defensive side. I know that this option doesn't work alone itself for defensive sides. If i use "pass into space" with high defensive line; then the opposition will attack my team and they will give space us to use. This seems to be risky to play a high d-line to them but I used these options together and they worked well for me.

"It's not crazy if you have the right players for it."

For me; it's the craziest option in the game. If I've right players to play like this, i won't choose that option and go another. That doesn't suit to my football mentality.

"Very vague. Contradicted your original post. Again, it depends on who you're playing."

"Again, contradicting your first post just because Cleon took apart what you said. What do you actually believe?"

After Cleon replied I thought "I must write about playing against a defensive side with wide play which i never see in the game. Also I should tell advantage and disadvantage of playing with a low d-line."

Thanks for reply.

[JaYmZeE]

" It depends on the team but I find that passing into space is more useful when playing direct. Except I wouldn't want to play direct against a team sitting deep because there's no space in behind. "

I want to explain why i use "pass into space" with high d-line option against a defensive side. I know that this option doesn't work alone itself for defensive sides. If i use "pass into space" with high defensive line; then the opposition will attack my team and they will give space us to use. This seems to be risky to play a high d-line to them but I used these options together and they worked well for me.

"It's not crazy if you have the right players for it."

For me; it's the craziest option in the game. If I've right players to play like this, i won't choose that option and go another. That doesn't suit to my football mentality.

"Very vague. Contradicted your original post. Again, it depends on who you're playing."

"Again, contradicting your first post just because Cleon took apart what you said. What do you actually believe?"

After Cleon replied I thought "I must write about playing against a defensive side with wide play which i never see in the game. Also I should tell advantage and disadvantage of playing with a low d-line."

Thanks for reply.

Hum de hum, pass into space really only becomes a factor within the engine when the simulated player thinks he see's some simulated space. I don't care what system you play, be it direct, indirect, round the houses and up the spout - there is only one time passing into space in football is ever a bad idea and that's passing into the space between your own goalposts - or if your player has no chance whatsoever of getting to the ball first.

Also, whether a team sits on its own six yard line, the whole idea that there will never be space to pass into is an admission of defeat and you may as well pick up the ball and go home.

The engine is sophisticated enuff and then some to take into account that no system is infallible given the human or simulated human fallability incorporated into being human they will eventually switch off for a second and they inevitable space needs to be exploited or your failing in your god sworn duty.

[JaYmZeE]

Also, depending on your foes defensive nature - if they sit too deep then what you need is a good target man and someone to fire the ball onto them. Width, stretch = I'm thinking the Irish against Croatia a few years back when trappatoni was still in charge - cant remember the tourney, but they sat deep and got nailed by mandzucic and the boy that used to play for rangers & everton - croatian to be sure though.

[Keyzer Soze]

When i play against teams that sit deep, play narrow, and usually have 2 man in DM line, for example in a 4213 formation, i tend to play more wider and sometimes also drop my D-Line a bit so have more space in the midfield.

Apart from that i have, by default, my fullbacks with PI's to stay wider.

And thats it... and usually it works.

I never play more attacking (i always play with control mentality), and very rarely change players roles.

[josev]

Hum de hum, pass into space really only becomes a factor within the engine when the simulated player thinks he see's some simulated space. I don't care what system you play, be it direct, indirect, round the houses and up the spout - there is only one time passing into space in football is ever a bad idea and that's passing into the space between your own goalposts - or if your player has no chance whatsoever of getting to the ball first.

Also, whether a team sits on its own six yard line, the whole idea that there will never be space to pass into is an admission of defeat and you may as well pick up the ball and go home.

The engine is sophisticated enuff and then some to take into account that no system is infallible given the human or simulated human fallability incorporated into being human they will eventually switch off for a second and they inevitable space needs to be exploited or your failing in your god sworn duty.

for me, selecting pass into space in fm is usually a bad idea cause it equals risky passing because of which you can easily lose posession, it makes players play the killer pass every time they see a slightest opportunity to do so. and if you play against a team sitting deep it'll likely just end up being intercepted, more cautious passing approach would be better as it will make players take their time and only play a killer ball when there's a clear opportunity to do so (like when there's a lot of space to pass into). i think it's just the title "pass into space" that is misleading, and anyway hasn't it been renamed to "more risky passes" in fm 16?

a bit offtopic, but i actually often find myself really annoyed with this risky passing because when i play 4-1-2-2-1 my IF(s) always tries to play a lofted through ball to my striker (cf(s)) which ends up being intercepted 8 times out of 10 and you can't ask him to make fewer passes like that, the option is locked for the role. and it's not like he hasn't got any other options to pass or space/skill to hold the ball for a few moments

[Pav_Makarov]

Had a very tough game against a heavy defending and eagerly counter attacking opposition yesterday, so I thought I might share my steps which helped me to get through and have me a very important 2-0 victory.

Last season I used common approach on countering defensive opposition – closing down less, stepping back, inviting them closer, then hitting with a direct build-up play (TM(s) was used extensively for that) but as my squad changed a bit and my TM left for a bigger club I had to change the approach.

So I was opposed by a team that used 4-2-3-1 with two deep DMs, taking in consideration my 4-2-3-1 high CM possession-based formation, you can see, how difficult it was to break them down. Usually I play short and patient, but yesterday that made no sense, as I could as well just sit around, staring at their defensive line. As my CF is a small guy, I didn’t want to use “stand back and wait for them to come at you, then hit it forward” as I did before, so instead I kept “work ball into box” TI but added playing wider and passing into space, combined with occasional higher tempo bursts (wouldn’t survive whole game on HT) and closing down more. I’ve set my CDs to stopper and cover to prevent opposition launching the long ball behind their backs and started waiting for the opportunity. My attacking setup of IF(s), RMD, EG and P was patiently keeping the ball, stretching their width, occasionally I was upping the tempo to stress them more. Eventually two af these bursts led to good openings and my Poacher got his space to score two goals.

So in conclusion I don’t have to wander far from my possession way of playing, I only added width, passing into space and using fast and agile poacher instead of my regular CF(s) option.

[JaYmZeE]

for me, selecting pass into space in fm is usually a bad idea cause it equals risky passing because of which you can easily lose posession, it makes players play the killer pass every time they see a slightest opportunity to do so. and if you play against a team sitting deep it'll likely just end up being intercepted, more cautious passing approach would be better as it will make players take their time and only play a killer ball when there's a clear opportunity to do so (like when there's a lot of space to pass into). i think it's just the title "pass into space" that is misleading, and anyway hasn't it been renamed to "more risky passes" in fm 16?

a bit offtopic, but i actually often find myself really annoyed with this risky passing because when i play 4-1-2-2-1 my IF(s) always tries to play a lofted through ball to my striker (cf(s)) which ends up being intercepted 8 times out of 10 and you can't ask him to make fewer passes like that, the option is locked for the role. and it's not like he hasn't got any other options to pass or space/skill to hold the ball for a few moments

We're reading the wording here totally differently. "PASS INTO SPACE" - I do not take that to mean that my players will "PASS INTO NON-EXISTENT SPACE SO THE PASS GETS INTERCEPTED". All the evidence I have shows that, assuming your team is decent, that the "PASS INTO SPACE" kicks in when there is SPACE TO PASS INTO - whether my team is first to the ball then depends, but given I play PASS INTO SPACE on all my formations both Control & Counter just now and when trying to control games, My average possession is 60-75% - I make about 450-500 passes per match with accuracy of absolute low being 77-78% up to the early 90%. The pass into space see my players knocking balls into all areas but the best are some of the reverse passes into and around the penalty box my AP makes.

At the end of the day, Football is all about finding space and exploiting it - whether it be with runs or balls or passes or erecting a DIY or Gardening Centre. Otherwise you end up with what Man Utd were doing a few weeks back with the most passes made between shots at goal. Fear ultimately, is unlikely to win you much - risks need to be taken to one degree or other - and I'll take that over passing it around my back 4 for 30 mins and claim I'm the master of possession - Alex Ferguson summed it up best - which should be no surprise - POSSESSION WITHOUT PENETRATION IS POINTLESS. The whole point of possession based football is holding the ball but with a purpose - that purpose beng probing and prodding looking for the opportunity.

Your experience with the engine may well be different than mine, but with "PASS INTO SPACE" selected the entire time, my team rarely gives the ball away in these situ's all though I do say this with the express understanding that my team is a work of art, and I know what I'm doing. If my team wasn't as good as it is maybe I'd be seeing the same as you. The only other occasion I could think that my team would be trying risky passes at poor moments in game would be if the teams not set up well or the tempo was too high. I'm set up with short passing, low tempo, play out of defence, be more expressive, roam from position, look for overlap & work into box - using 4-4-1-1 with the 2 CM's actually being DM's the wide mids being exactly that or wingers in a support role, WB's in a support role, an AP in a support role and my F9 who I love.

I'm Kingstonian by the way.

In Counter - it's a no brainer - pace a must - high tempo, yet not necessarily direct passing - short will work just fine if you've got the talent.