PPM's, how does training them work?

[sjewitt]

So players sometimes fail training PPM's, does anyone know the factor(s) of completion? plus the coaches say i don't see him being able to train that before starting, so what's it based on is there a way of guessing if they will be able to or not and is it the case if they where gonna fail one PPM training they gonna fail which ever PPM i chose.

And does it matter at al which coach you select?

Thanks

[tmpnd]

IMO its purely luck if it fails.

If there is a hidden formula involved, and for the example i'll put i'm 99% sure there is, it certainly involves the attributes needed for the PPM. For example, you can't possibly expect a player with poor Finishing, Composure and Decisions, the same way you can't ask a player with very poor Acceleration, Balance and Anticipation to Round the Keeper.

[Cleon]

IMO its purely luck if it fails.

If there is a hidden formula involved, and for the example i'll put i'm 99% sure there is, it certainly involves the attributes needed for the PPM. For example, you can't possibly expect a player with poor Finishing, Composure and Decisions, the same way you can't ask a player with very poor Acceleration, Balance and Anticipation to Round the Keeper.

It's nothing to do with the attributes for the PPM why it fails, it's all down to the players hidden attributes and personality type.

[rninejr]

indeed, normal attributes like finishing dribbling agility etc have nothing to do when train someone a PPM. Hidden attributes like ambition, professionalism are the ones responsible

about the coach, let the ones with better knowledge give the correct answer but 1 thing I know for sure, if your coach says he dont see that PPM training to be successful, do not listen to him. If u think that PPM is needed for that player n your playstyle, just ask your coach to do that no matter what he say.

[vasilli07]

Some seen attributes do help in ppm training. For eg, tries killer balls ppm, a player with good vision and passing should be more than capable of learning it. Or curls ball ppm, you will probably want a player with good technique.

[tmpnd]

Ok i take that back, thanks for clarifying.

[Cleon]

Some seen attributes do help in ppm training. For eg, tries killer balls ppm, a player with good vision and passing should be more than capable of learning it. Or curls ball ppm, you will probably want a player with good technique.

Except none of this is taken into account when learning them, so no it doesn't help.

[rninejr]

this thread is about what factors that matters for a player to be successful in PPM training. So once again, normal attributes that can be seen (finishing, movement, pace, etc) are irrelevant.

is it possible for a player with 6 vision, 7 passing, 6 composure, 9 decision, n 8 anticipation to learn Dictates Tempo PPM? it is. depends on his hidden attributes, but as long as these hidden attributes are good enough, he can learn Dictates Tempo regardless how bad his seemingly required mental/physical/technical attributes are. Will that PPM useful for him? that's when mental/physical/technical attributes comes into account.

[sjewitt]

It's nothing to do with the attributes for the PPM why it fails, it's all down to the players hidden attributes and personality type.

is it the case then that they'll either complete or fail them all and whichever one you chose has 0 differance?

[sjewitt]

this thread is about what factors that matters for a player to be successful in PPM training. So once again, normal attributes that can be seen (finishing, movement, pace, etc) are irrelevant.

is it possible for a player with 6 vision, 7 passing, 6 composure, 9 decision, n 8 anticipation to learn Dictates Tempo PPM? it is. depends on his hidden attributes, but as long as these hidden attributes are good enough, he can learn Dictates Tempo regardless how bad his seemingly required mental/physical/technical attributes are. Will that PPM useful for him? that's when mental/physical/technical attributes comes into account.

i guess if this wasn't the case with visible attributes lower league players would never be able to learn them.

[Guest]

Attributes not being a factor doesn't make sense (FM context, not real life), of course a player's ability to learn new skills through their mental traits is key but if hidden attributes are equal I would expect a player with passing & vision of 16 to have greater chance of learning the look for long passes or switch play PPMs than a player with a value of 6 for those attributes.

This is shown with the flat bullet throw PPM, if a player is lacking in the long throw & strength attributes then (info from Riz regarding FM15 code) they will not be capable of successfully learning that PPM.

[sjewitt]

but if attributes where a factor wouldn't that mean lower league player would always fail?

so am i right in think no1 is sure?

[vasilli07]

but if attributes where a factor wouldn't that mean lower league player would always fail?

so am i right in think no1 is sure?

Lower league players have lower attributes(but considered as good for their league standard) as well. Do you think that strikers with 7-8 finishing will never score in lower league?

[Cleon]

Attributes not being a factor doesn't make sense (FM context, not real life), of course a player's ability to learn new skills through their mental traits is key but if hidden attributes are equal I would expect a player with passing & vision of 16 to have greater chance of learning the look for long passes or switch play PPMs than a player with a value of 6 for those attributes.

This is shown with the flat bullet throw PPM, if a player is lacking in the long throw & strength attributes then (info from Riz regarding FM15 code) they will not be capable of successfully learning that PPM.

Lot's of things in FM doesn't make sense.

[Guest]

Lot's of things in FM doesn't make sense.

Can't disagree with that point, I would never have got a job at SI had everything made sense out of the box.

Lower league players have lower attributes(but considered as good for their league standard) as well. Do you think that strikers with 7-8 finishing will never score in lower league?

That might raise an interesting question, is there a possible exploit where loaning a player to a much lower standard league would increase, decrease of have no effect on their ability to acquire a PPM that they are already training on?

[HUNT3R]

Attributes not being a factor doesn't make sense (FM context, not real life), of course a player's ability to learn new skills through their mental traits is key but if hidden attributes are equal I would expect a player with passing & vision of 16 to have greater chance of learning the look for long passes or switch play PPMs than a player with a value of 6 for those attributes.

This is shown with the flat bullet throw PPM, if a player is lacking in the long throw & strength attributes then (info from Riz regarding FM15 code) they will not be capable of successfully learning that PPM.

Although I agree with the bullet throw example, I want to play devil's advocate on the rest. Should attributes affect a player's ability to learn a PPM? I'd argue not. It'll affect the ability to actually execute the PPM, but it doesn't change him preferring to do it. Think long range shots, shooting with power, placing shots or long range passes. He might want/prefer to do it, but that doesn't mean he'll execute it well. The attributes will determine that.

This is why we have coaches who recommend a player learn a PPM. If we disagree and make a different (and worse) choice, that's our bad management.

Or are we saying that a player should realise that he doesn't have quite the skillset to regularly pull off a certain move, so will be discouraged from learning it? If that's the case, I can see the point.

[Cleon]

Bullet throw and develop weaker foot aside and none of the PPM's need any type of ability (or cost CA) to be learnt. This can be tested by anyone who has the time. It's been like this for quite some time.

It's also one of the reasons that ANY PPM can be transferred via tutoring, this wouldn't be possible otherwise. PPM's are not complex, far from it. I wish the game was as complex as Barside is making out here for PPM's. The game doesn't differentiate between PPM's of a player in the lower leagues or the top league. If the game is supposed to differentiate between them then it's been bugged for the past 6 years but based on all other training, attributes and how they work, then I'd say it's working as intended whether we like it or not.

You can also check out some of the PPM's of players in the top leagues on the game and see that the attributes needed are low yet they've still learnt it.

[Guest]

The link & possible lack therefore between how PPMs are acquired in game & how they're assigned by researchers might be a problem, if a keeper has the looks to throw long PPM is that because it's a tendencies that they've always had or is it because they've worked on the necessary technical ability & awareness to have the ability to throw the ball long & the confidence to do that?

The issue I perceive with PPMs is that there are currently two kinds, some are behavioural traits (gets forward, plays with back to goal, looks to beat offside trap) while others are technical skills (places shots, marks tightly, bullet throw) but that the criteria for attaining a PPM could be the same regardless of whether it's a trait or a skill.

[vasilli07]

That might raise an interesting question, is there a possible exploit where loaning a player to a much lower standard league would increase, decrease of have no effect on their ability to acquire a PPM that they are already training on?

Not too sure it's called an exploit. Afterall, a player maybe able to learn the ppm in the lower leagues but will not be able to execute it as well in the top level as his attributes are low/poor.

[Guest]

Not too sure it's called an exploit. Afterall, a player maybe able to learn the ppm in the lower leagues but will not be able to execute it as well in the top level as his attributes are low/poor.

It would be if the player is a talented youngster as the PPM would stay with them as they improved their general attributes, learn a PPM in a low requirement environment & then develop the attributes that increase the effectiveness of the PPM. Could be why the current system would appear to not factor attributes or restrict it to precise requirements for certain PPMs.

I imagine the training & player development systems will be an interesting one to watch over the next couple of FMs as I would be surprised & probably disappointed if Riz has retained his lead position on FM now that EHM has returned.

[sjewitt]

so is it different behind the scene attributes for each PPM?

i must be right it's not they either learn them all or pass them all?

nd does anyone know which attributes it is?

[herne79]

You are over thinking it.

If you believe a PPM will help achieve the style of play you want for one of your players, teach it to him. Be logical and sensible in your coach and player selection for who is going to teach and learn the PPM. That's all there is to it. Keep it simple.

However, no matter what you do there will always be a chance the teaching will fail. Even if you try to tutor a PPM into a player, the tutoring may fail.

There really isn't any need to worry about things like hidden attributes.

[sjewitt]

if a player fails learning a PPM meaning his hidden attributes aren't good enough, does that mean he'll fail them all or do some need better attributes than others?

[Cleon]

if a player fails learning a PPM meaning his hidden attributes aren't good enough, does that mean he'll fail them all or do some need better attributes than others?

Some players it might take 2 or 3 times before they pick it up. Just because it fails once doesn't mean it will the next time. And other times they might never pick it up.

[sjewitt]

Some players it might take 2 or 3 times before they pick it up. Just because it fails once doesn't mean it will the next time. And other times they might never pick it up.

but does it take the same hidden attributes for each PPM?

basically are some easier to learn than others?

Thanks for answering so many questions, i'm gonna give them a break for a bit. (or atleast try to)/

[herne79]

but does it take the same hidden attributes for each PPM?

basically are some easier to learn than others?

Who cares? You're still over thinking it .

If you think a PPM is suitable for a player and it will help your tactical system, teach it to him. I couldn't give a monkeys' about his hidden attributes.

If the teaching fails, it fails. Try again or don't. If it succeeds, then great.

Remember - none of this is game breaking. A DLP without the PPM "Dictates Tempo" can be just as effective as a DLP who does have it (for example).

[sjewitt]

last point on this, but i guess you if the player was young you could tutor him to improve hidden attributes which could result him then learning.

[TjP]

And all this time I was refraining from teaching PPM's because my (excellent) coaching staff advised against it!

Also, does anyone know what effect teaching a ppm, or committing a player to focus on a specific area of training does to their attribute gain? For example, if I'm teaching my false 9 to play the role, will he make more progress with that training if he has no PPM training and/or extra strength training?

In the past I have worried that forcing a player into learning a PPM the coach advises against will slow his overall stat development. /unsure