The 4231 and 2 Man Midfield.

[James9]

I have gone back to my 4231 save with Arsenal. I want some help in creating a solid 2 man midfield shield in front of my defenders. I am not interested in playing with two DMC. I want my two central midfielders to be in the CM Strata.

My first idea was to go with a two DLP's so I would have one of the midfielders set to DLP Support and the other would be DLP Defend.

I think the the double pivot of DLPs will just end playing it to each other also because they are both playmakers they will probably reduce the amount of time my other playmaker sees the ball. I am playing Ozil has a Advance Playmaker Attack in the AMC slot so I want him to see a much of the ball as possible and feed my Inside Forward and Striker.

I would like to know if anyone as ever played with 2 DLPs in central midfield and how this affected their other Playmakers in the team.

Option 2

CM Defend and DLP Support

I would then add PI telling both players to close down less. I am hoping by using this PI both players will stay central and not go chasing after the ball on the wings.

I am playing with wing backs on support and I will have one of my Inside Forward set to support and the other attack.

I always play with a Control Mentality and Flexible Team shape when playing with a 4231 wide.

I would very much like some advice from other FMers on how the set up their 2 - Man Midfields.

[SnUrF]

I'd go with CM(D) & DLP(S) without the PIs, see how it goes and then if need be try some PIs.

-SnUrF

[Cleon]

You say you want 2 players who are in the CM strata then immediately look at using a DLP or CM role with a defensive duty which makes him in the DM strata.

In answer to your question though, both work fine. But again it comes back to the same thing you must have been told 50 million times this past year alone , it doesn't matter how it played for us because we don't have the same players, don't play the same way, our systems will differ even if the same shape etc. You really need to try it and watch games and see which works best for you. I'm not sure how others set up their 2 man midfield is helpful to you at all.

I mean, you already have a pre perceived idea of what TI's/PI's you will use without seeing it play out. The same for the mentality and shape you use. You seem to be set in your way and already know you need to use PI's without even seeing if that is the case.

[Overmars]

If Ozil is your key guy and you have him in the AMC spot playing an AP role then I think it would make sense to avoid using DLPs elsewhere. Give them less responsibility for creating and let them funnel the play to Ozil. CM, BWM, or BBM would be my recommendation.

[Cam NBH]

I use Cazorla as a DLP and Ozil as an APM and have them swap positions with each other. Works well for me so far.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I am playing a 2-man midfield with Brazil at the moment and enjoying success with a simple MC-D and MC-S.

[tmpnd]

I know it doesn't really suit arsenal on the first season, but if you do your homework in making the front 4 create/score the majority of your goals, a partnership of a CM(D) and BWM(S) can be used to devastating effect. CM(D) is by far my favorite holding hole and i'd always rather have a BWM(S) over a B2B.

[Gee_Simpson]

I have gone back to my 4231 save with Arsenal. I want some help in creating a solid 2 man midfield shield in front of my defenders. I am not interested in playing with two DMC. I want my two central midfielders to be in the CM Strata.

My first idea was to go with a two DLP's so I would have one of the midfielders set to DLP Support and the other would be DLP Defend.

I think the the double pivot of DLPs will just end playing it to each other also because they are both playmakers they will probably reduce the amount of time my other playmaker sees the ball. I am playing Ozil has a Advance Playmaker Attack in the AMC slot so I want him to see a much of the ball as possible and feed my Inside Forward and Striker.

I would like to know if anyone as ever played with 2 DLPs in central midfield and how this affected their other Playmakers in the team.

Option 2

CM Defend and DLP Support

I would then add PI telling both players to close down less. I am hoping by using this PI both players will stay central and not go chasing after the ball on the wings.

I am playing with wing backs on support and I will have one of my Inside Forward set to support and the other attack.

I always play with a Control Mentality and Flexible Team shape when playing with a 4231 wide.

I would very much like some advice from other FMers on how the set up their 2 - Man Midfields.

Why are you against using 2 DM's?

[James9]

Why are you against using 2 DM's?

Because I do not know how to set it up correctly. When I look on the screen it seems to be a huge gap between the DMC and the AMC position and there is too much space between the DMC and AML/ AMR.

I do not want to pull my AMC or AMR/AML back to the midfield strata.

It seems that the ball will have to travel a big distance to get to these players. Also I was under the impression that using a 4231 deep was more of counter attacking set up or when you want to protect a lead. I have no interest in playing Counter Attscking Football.

[Cleon]

Because I do not know how to set it up correctly. When I look on the screen it seems to be a huge gap between the DMC and the AMC position and there is too much space between the DMC and AML/ AMR.

I do not want to pull my AMC or AMR/AML back to the midfield strata.

It seems that the ball will have to travel a big distance to get to these players. Also I was under the impression that using a 4231 deep was more of counter attacking set up or when you want to protect a lead. I have no interest in playing Counter Attscking Football.

Not true at all. This is how all 4231's in real life work too, they all use DMC's not MC's.

[James9]

Not true at all. This is how all 4231's in real life work too, they all use DMC's not MC's.

So Cleon are you making a statement to say that the developers at SI are following real life formations to the letter. When I watch football and look at the 4231 I do not see any of the MC's position in the DMC strata. The formation on the TV screen shows them in the MC's position and it looks like the 4231 wide and not the 4231 deep.

Cleon I would love to see how you would set up a successful 4231. I have been looking over the forum at all tactics and guides but I could not find anything showing how you set up a 4231 deep or 4231 wide, I know there is quite a few post on the formation but i coukd not find anything that shows you setting up and using either of the formations.

My apology if you have done one and I have missed it during my search.

[Cleon]

So Cleon are you making a statement to say that the developers at SI are following real life formations to the letter. When I watch football and look at the 4231 I do not see any of the MC's position in the DMC strata. The formation on the TV screen shows them in the MC's position and it looks like the 4231 wide and not the 4231 deep.

No I'm just saying there's a reason why irl teams use DMC's. And you ignore the position the TV pundits shows on the screen as an overview, it's never accurate ever. They just use them for place holders nothing more. If you watch the actual matches you'll see they're more DMC's than MC and act more like MC's when in possession. This is why on FM DMC's is the most accurate representation because they can mimick the actions. Doing it the other way at MC, they lose the defensive aspects and can't replicate them fully.

Cleon I would love to see how you would set up a successful 4231. I have been looking over the forum at all tactics and guides but I could not find anything showing how you set up a 4231 deep or 4231 wide, I know there is quite a few post on the formation but i coukd not find anything that shows you setting up and using either of the formations.

That would be because I don't use that shape, I find it boring and limited compared to lots of other shapes. I did do a posts on a 4231 deep though but no idea where or how long ago that was. I know I posted it on here though.

Because I do not know how to set it up correctly. When I look on the screen it seems to be a huge gap between the DMC and the AMC position and there is too much space between the DMC and AML/ AMR.

I do not want to pull my AMC or AMR/AML back to the midfield strata.

You don't have to pull them back. You just need to balance the roles and duties used so it all connects together. You've identified the issues so what roles can you use to fix them? If you think the gap is too big then do you need an attack minded DMC to link play? Or do you need a deeper supportive AMC role? Or maybe both? This is how you should be thinking. You can make the whole front 4 come deeper if it links play better and makes them a more cohesive unit without losing any attacking intent.

[James9]

No I'm just saying there's a reason why irl teams use DMC's. And you ignore the position the TV pundits shows on the screen as an overview, it's never accurate ever. They just use them for place holders nothing more. If you watch the actual matches you'll see they're more DMC's than MC and act more like MC's when in possession. This is why on FM DMC's is the most accurate representation because they can mimick the actions. Doing it the other way at MC, they lose the defensive aspects and can't replicate them fully.

That would be because I don't use that shape, I find it boring and limited compared to lots of other shapes. I did do a posts on a 4231 deep though but no idea where or how long ago that was. I know I posted it on here though.

Cleon why do you find boring and limited compared to other shapes. Could you give any examples of this and what other shapes are you comparing it to. From researching your post I can see that you seem to favour formations with a player in the DMC position

You have done a few topics using the 433 and 4-1-4-1 as your base formation. Could you explain why you favour these formations over the 4231

[Cleon]

Cleon why do you find boring and limited compared to other shapes. Could you give any examples of this and what other shapes are you comparing it to. From researching your post I can see that you seem to favour formations with a player in the DMC position

You have done a few topics using the 433 and 4-1-4-1 as your base formation. Could you explain why you favour these formations over the 4231

I don't favour those over the 4231 as such, they just suited better the brand of football I was creating and the overall style at the time. The 4231 as you see it on the formation screen is your defensive shape, does it look stable? Can you see gaps? Using other formations I can defend better and cover the important areas in defensive phases. I'd rather use other shapes and turn them into a 4231 in attacking phases. The overall shape you see on the tactic screen is cosmetic really and not a true reflection of how you play when attacking. I can take a 451 and turn that into a better 4231 than a 4231 etc with the roles and duties you use. It's much harder to turn a 4231 into other shapes though because the tactic has 4 players positioned high up the pitch so you become limited to a certain extent. However using something that has players positioned deeper, you can create almost anything.

Personally if I wanted to create a proper 4231 that reflected real life I'd use 4 defenders, 2 DMC, 1MC, ML, MR and a Striker.

I think half of the issue you have is you're set in your ways and already have a set way of playing. When you said;

I always play with a Control Mentality and Flexible Team shape when playing with a 4231 wide.

This on it's own makes little sense. Why would you always play that way? I mean, you've struggled with this formation for a very long time yet still keep falling back to playing the ways that have failed you for so long. Why limit your options without seeing how it plays other ways? I'm not saying you can't use control or flexible but to say you always play that way, maybe it's time to stop limiting and think about doing stuff you don't normally do? That way you might actually realise you can play counter/standard etc and still be more deadly and attacking than using a control mentality. You should use a mentality structure that suits the roles and duties you use and compliments the style of football you are creating.

I guess my point is, don't follow rules and have set ways to play. This only limits what you can achieve and get to work. Especially when these set rules have failed you in the past, makes no sense to carry on using the same approach.

[James9]

I don't favour those over the 4231 as such, they just suited better the brand of football I was creating and the overall style at the time. The 4231 as you see it on the formation screen is your defensive shape, does it look stable? Can you see gaps? Using other formations I can defend better and cover the important areas in defensive phases. I'd rather use other shapes and turn them into a 4231 in attacking phases. The overall shape you see on the tactic screen is cosmetic really and not a true reflection of how you play when attacking. I can take a 451 and turn that into a better 4231 than a 4231 etc with the roles and duties you use. It's much harder to turn a 4231 into other shapes though because the tactic has 4 players positioned high up the pitch so you become limited to a certain extent. However using something that has players positioned deeper, you can create almost anything.

Personally if I wanted to create a proper 4231 that reflected real life I'd use 4 defenders, 2 DMC, 1MC, ML, MR and a Striker.

That is the reason why I am now looking at using 4-1-4-1 or 433 formations. Your post on Bayern Munich made me look at the 4-1-4-1 in more detail. I had the problem of having a great number 10 in Ozil and I was determine to try and a play a 4231 wide because I wanted him to play in the AMC position. I came across which you mentioned that you retrained Ozil to play as a F9 and that got me thinking about using him in a different role. Could I just ask if you have a link that tactic with Ozil as F9 or did you use him in a 4-1-4-1 or 433 set up. Could I also have the link to the Bayetn Munich tactic again please I have removed it from my favourites by accident

[James9]

I don't favour those over the 4231 as such, they just suited better the brand of football I was creating and the overall style at the time. The 4231 as you see it on the formation screen is your defensive shape, does it look stable? Can you see gaps? Using other formations I can defend better and cover the important areas in defensive phases. I'd rather use other shapes and turn them into a 4231 in attacking phases. The overall shape you see on the tactic screen is cosmetic really and not a true reflection of how you play when attacking. I can take a 451 and turn that into a better 4231 than a 4231 etc with the roles and duties you use. It's much harder to turn a 4231 into other shapes though because the tactic has 4 players positioned high up the pitch so you become limited to a certain extent. However using something that has players positioned deeper, you can create almost anything.

Personally if I wanted to create a proper 4231 that reflected real life I'd use 4 defenders, 2 DMC, 1MC, ML, MR and a Striker.

I think half of the issue you have is you're set in your ways and already have a set way of playing. When you said;

This on it's own makes little sense. Why would you always play that way? I mean, you've struggled with this formation for a very long time yet still keep falling back to playing the ways that have failed you for so long. Why limit your options without seeing how it plays other ways? I'm not saying you can't use control or flexible but to say you always play that way, maybe it's time to stop limiting and think about doing stuff you don't normally do? That way you might actually realise you can play counter/standard etc and still be more deadly and attacking than using a control mentality. You should use a mentality structure that suits the roles and duties you use and compliments the style of football you are creating.

I guess my point is, don't follow rules and have set ways to play. This only limits what you can achieve and get to work. Especially when these set rules have failed you in the past, makes no sense to carry on using the same approach.

I play Control because I want to control the game against other teams. I choose Flexible because I am

not confident with Team Shape as yet. I believe it was Rashidi that said if you are unsure just stick with Flexible. I will only use Standard if I am up against a team that is parking bus so that my team will drop a bit deeper and create more space with the hope of encouraging them to come forward.

[James9]

No I'm just saying there's a reason why irl teams use DMC's. And you ignore the position the TV pundits shows on the screen as an overview, it's never accurate ever. They just use them for place holders nothing more. If you watch the actual matches you'll see they're more DMC's than MC and act more like MC's when in possession. This is why on FM DMC's is the most accurate representation because they can mimick the actions. Doing it the other way at MC, they lose the defensive aspects and can't replicate them fully.

That would be because I don't use that shape, I find it boring and limited compared to lots of other shapes. I did do a posts on a 4231 deep though but no idea where or how long ago that was. I know I posted it on here though.

You don't have to pull them back. You just need to balance the roles and duties used so it all connects together. You've identified the issues so what roles can you use to fix them? If you think the gap is too big then do you need an attack minded DMC to link play? Or do you need a deeper supportive AMC role? Or maybe both? This is how you should be thinking. You can make the whole front 4 come deeper if it links play better and makes them a more cohesive unit without losing any attacking intent.

Well looking at Ozil he already has the come deeper to get ball PPM so if I played him as a Advance Playmaker Support in the AMC position would this mean that he would come deeper link the player and reduce the gap between the AMC and DMC's so I might not need to have a more attacking DMC.

Would giving a player PI be another way of getting for example a DMC to link play. I was looking at the Get Further Forward PI for one of the DMC but this is just a thought at the moment

Should I also be looking for AMR/AML with the come deeper PPM so they can also link the play or should I just give them more of a supportive role/duty for example Inside Forward Support on both wings.

[Cleon]

Well looking at Ozil he already has the come deeper to get ball PPM so if I played him as a Advance Playmaker Support in the AMC position would this mean that he would come deeper link the player and reduce the gap between the AMC and DMC's so I might not need to have a more attacking DMC.

If he is the only link to the DMC's what happens if ge gets marked out of the game or has a bad day? How will your set up compensate for this?

Would giving a player PI be another way of getting for example a DMC to link play. I was looking at the Get Further Forward PI for one of the DMC but this is just a thought at the moment

PI's aren't really going to close the gap. I'd choose a more forward thinking role and use maybe a Regista instead. After all you are talking about using more aggressive PI's to make him do what you want so why not simplify things and use a more suitable role instead?

Should I also be looking for AMR/AML with the come deeper PPM so they can also link the play or should I just give them more of a supportive role/duty for example Inside Forward Support on both wings.

A PPM won't make them come down enough consistently. After all a PPM is only as good as the players decision making, so if that's poor then he might not use it that often. I'd honestly play a few games and see if the role suits what you expect and want. And also concentrate on if they're coming deep enough frequently. If the answer is yes then you're fine but if it's no then you know you can use a different role maybe. If the other players are linking well then you might not need the AML/AMR to come deep. It all depends on what you're creating and what you see happening.

[James9]

If he is the only link to the DMC's what happens if ge gets marked out of the game or has a bad day? How will your set up compensate for this?

PI's aren't really going to close the gap. I'd choose a more forward thinking role and use maybe a Regista instead. After all you are talking about using more aggressive PI's to make him do what you want so why not simplify things and use a more suitable role instead?

A PPM won't make them come down enough consistently. After all a PPM is only as good as the players decision making, so if that's poor then he might not use it that often. I'd honestly play a few games and see if the role suits what you expect and want. And also concentrate on if they're coming deep enough frequently. If the answer is yes then you're fine but if it's no then you know you can use a different role maybe. If the other players are linking well then you might not need the AML/AMR to come deep. It all depends on what you're creating and what you see happening.

My only suggestion for if he his having a bad game is changing the player or changing the role. It depends on how he is having a bad game also if he is getting marked by world class DMC then I might give him a more mobile role like a Trequartisa instead of advance playmaker or drop him into the MC strata but I think this might split my team too much because I will the AMR/AML and striker at the top and the the playmaker in midfield this might cause me more problems than I want. I think RT did a post on the 4231 deep I might go have a look over at his blog to get some ideas.

[Cleon]

The AP is a mobile role. My point is a system isn't any good or consistent if it has to rely on one specific player to link play up. There will be times it won't work and even making subtle role changes or player changes might not be enough. You need more than one way to link play, to attack etc. This is why we see people who can't get stuff to work correctly and are inconsistent because they rely on the same bit of play over and over again. Create something that gives you options and doesn't make too much difference if a player is marked out of the game or having a bad day.

[Kuchiki]

I've been playing with a 4231 with liverpool and done well finishing 3rd in my 1st season. I was playing attacking mentality, flexible. SwGKd, fbsl, fbsr, cdd, cdd, cms, dlps, winga, ams, winga, afa. Team instructions, more direct, higher defensive line, close down more, get stuck in, higher tempo, play offside and prevent gk destribution. This year I've tinkered it a bit I've gone for swgka, wbsr, fbsl, bpdd, cdd, cmd, cms, ifar, ams, wing a left, af a. Im hoping the extra creativity from the back bpd and sweeper gk will give me more support and a more attacking threat from the right as i lacked more goals from that side last season.