How can you create Slaven Bilic tactics?

[drevil1969]

Simple as that. Using whoscored.com and being a West Ham fan, I always try to replicate what the current manager does (And fail every time!) This season has been a revelation for West Ham so I wanted to see if it was possible, not just from my onw observations but with, as I say whoscored.com

From whoscored.com, what it says about West Ham AND Slaven Bilic. (To me it seems pretty spot on!)

West Ham play, generally 4-2-3-1 (It does not specify if it is 4-2DM-3-1 nor does it specify if it is 4-2-3-1 WIDE)

They also state that the two wide players swap position (Which I have noticed but it does not happen that regular)

Add to that it says that the 2 wider attacking players cut inside and cause an overload, similar to Mourinho. (Not noticed Mourinho doing that so any Chelski fans that have noticed it might e interesting if this is true.)

Another thing that was noted, when Bilic was manager of Besiktas to counter a threat from Liverpool he had his FBs stay more narrow and deeper (I have not noticed this in real life)

Whoscored.com mentioned was that they retain the football and have a slow build up.

West Ham are, according to whoscored.com, are very strong attacking the wings (No surprise with Payet in the team and Antonio being a machine!)

They say that West Ham are very weak with individual errors. (Definitely were earlier in the season but far less now as the players have adapted more to Slaven)

Lastly West Ham are weak at avoiding offside and defending from counter attacks.

From personal observations West Ham do not mind conceding chances but do not like conceding easy goals. We also are pretty much compact and can counter at fantastic pace. We also like to create clear chances and wait for our chance to create something, as whoscored.com, looking for an overload. Finally my final observation is we adapt our style slightly based on personal and who is available.

So based on that I think A) it is accurate and B) can I replicate it as he does in real life with West Ham.

With this in mind I wanted to ask whether my set up was correct and if there are ways to improve it. (I am certain there are ways)

I am not sure if at this point I should put up images of my current team (Starting fresh for this!) AND/OR team comparison.

The shape I will play is 4-2-3-1 WIDE.

GK Adrian or Randolph are both rated as 2 1/2 stars (Either they are under valuing how good Adrian is or saying Randolph is really good, not sure but it is personal opinion here I think!)

DR Jenkinson. After a fantastic first season his second went from bad to worse. He made errors and looked like a rabbit caught in the headlights. Now this might be down to high creative freedom AND mistakes. Something whoscored.com mentioned with regards to Slaven

DCR Reid. the game calls him a strong centre back, so to me that makes him unflinching. Tempted to make him a stopper, but that wont work if I am trying to play offside

DCL Ogbonna. Another strong centre back who is unflinching. the game says he is a ball playing defender but I am concerned about this. Composure of 11, First Touch 12, Vision 10 and Decisions of 13 make me lean away from making him so.

DL Cresswell. Great engine and think he might be seen as a WB, you find him joining in often with attacks on the edge of the area.

CMR (D) Here is when I start to wonder about roles etc. Bilic likes to have one player sitting but he also has to be able to pass. Sometimes he will have a different player dropping to pick the ball up. Would I make this a DLP (D) and have him swap roles with CML?

CML (S) Again I am not sure about the role here. I probably would use Kouyate or Noble. The work rate required he is immense and Bilic had whoever plays here covering a lot of ground. this is either a BBM (s) or BWM (s)

AML Here is Payet. The game says his best position is IF so here I think I will play him. I want him on the ball loads but not to totally rely on him, remember I want to create overloads. Do I play him IF (a) or (S)?

AMC Here again is where I am not sure. West Ham have Lanzini playing here and he is always looking to pick a pass, but does not play too risky. He tries to find little pockets of space and is also known to get back to help out as well a bit. What role here?

AMR Now here is where I think it may conflict. Bilic has played Moses or Antonio here mostly and both players are a little unpredictable, get in the area (And have scored a few, this might be seen as an overlap, not sure) but they also run at teams with pace and power, starting from out wide. Is this an IF (a)? With changes made so they are wider, have more creative freedom and to dribble more?

ST this is where I think it all falls down most for me. Bilic has two main options here. He plays Sakho or Carroll and adapts depending who is available. In the game Sakho is seen as an AF (s? a?) and Bilic has him moving into channels. (Read recently he had adapted his game under Slaven) Under Carroll West Ham dont do it as much but Carroll does not have balls launched at him, but he is expected to be part of the building up of play (TM s?) (DLF s?) (F9?)

[drevil1969]

Now of course with all of this information available I can try to create and replicate Slaven in real life and hopefully have similar success

shape will be 4-2-3-1 WIDE

Mentality will be ? Not sure. LOL

Team Shape I THINK I want is Very Fluid. Now this is because when West Ham are attacking apart from the two CBs and a FB everyone has a touch of the ball when West Ham are attacking. When defending this is when it gets prickly for me and I am very unsure. When defending West Ham sometimes have Payet tucking in at virtually a Left WB position and Antonio/Moses on the other side as RBs, bursting from the back and creating attacks. So is this more Very Structured?

Team instructions I am thinking are

Lower Tempo. reason for this is whoscored.com mentioned "that they retain the football and have a slow build up" so to me this makes sense

Width, not sure. When in possession West Ham use decent amounts of the pitch and look to get everyone involved. As mentioned before, looking to create overlaps

DL Again, not sure here, West Ham can get caught out with offsides here, so thinking slightly higher.

CLosing Down I think West Ham are good at getting their shape and nicking the ball off teams then breaking. I think here the setting could be closing down less. Any suggestions?

Prevent Short GK Distribution is something I think I have seen West Ham do, but surely that conflicts!

Stay On Feet is something ilic does as well, he likes his players to stay compact, nicking the ball away from people then breaking.

Play Out Of Defence is something West Ham have done and in fact have conceded a couple of goals with this method. (Also will add to GK to roll it out in IT)

Passing Directness I am not sure of. Generally the players are really good at little exchanges to find space etc but sometimes can chip the ball long.

Retain Possession is something I will use. Reason being is 'Instructs players to prioritise keeping hold of the ball" Is the desiccation, and that sounds right

Creative Freedom, think I might tick that but possible that I might instead tick "Be More disciplined" as I have chosen "Very Fluid"

Look For Overlap seems the right thing to do, I think this will make my players hold on to the ball until an extra man is available

Work Ball Into Box and it's description sounds right too. Essentially hold the ball and wait for an opening. (If this increases through balls I think it may be the wrong setting for me)

Dribble Less. The description says that the players will look to pass rather than run with the ball. Also sounds correct to me

Anything I can or should change?

I am going to add a few individual instructions to some players

Payet will have Roam more (AML)

Moses/Antonio will have Stay Wider

[Sussex Hammer]

I'll be watching this with great interest because I have given up on trying to make tactics and now just play the first season over and over again with different downloaded tactics to see how they play but none are really tailor made for the Hammers so this will interest me on how you get on.

I have seen West Ham play an awful lot this year and the way they play is one of the pitfalls of FM because they never play the same way. One minute it's a slow controlling build up and the next they are counter attacking. Certainly earlier in the season, especially away from home, they were very much a counter attack side, but that changed a bit with Sakho's injury and Carroll coming back into the side. Sakho is decent in FM but Carroll is completely useless. In fact several players especially Payet and Kouyate don't play as well in the game as they have done IRL this season.

Payet is an interesting one. I had him playing well at one point as a wide attacking playmaker in the AML slot. He cut in a lot and played quite centrally and had a very high pass rate and also left a lot of space for Cresswell but the team didn't play well with that shape and he got dispossessed a lot. I tried to replicate the movement but just as an Inside Forward so the ball wasn't always going to him but just couldn't get him narrow enough as an IF. In fact I find it very difficult in FM16 to get any joy really out of the AML/AMR/AMC/DM slots. It's something about players in those positions that I can't get to work. Especially the DM strata (any role) is a waste of space literally and for me at least never did anything to help defensively. AMR/AML ok for getting on the end of crosses but bar that tough to get right IMO.

Also I look forward to see how you can get goals from a lone forward as I couldn't get anything out of one up top so currently I use a 442 which is getting goals but can be short in the CM area.

When I tried to create a proper West Ham tactic this is how I saw the roles but I just couldn't get it to work either on counter or on control/attack and I can't get my head around TI's these days. Think the roles were about right as I felt they play more a 433/4231 hybrid as they don't really have two holding midfielders it's just that Noble drops when he can. My idea therefore was.

______________________Sakho (CF A)_______________

Payet (AP S)__________________________________Antonio (W A)

____________Lanzini (AP A)__________Noble (DLP S)________

______________________Kouyate (BWM D)__________

Cresswell (WB A)__Ogbonna (CD D)___Reid (CD S)_Byram (FB S)

______________________Adrian (GK D)________________

As I say that's the way I kind of see it IRL with those players but roles change obviously when you add Carroll, Song and Obiang. I couldn't get it working in FM even when I went to fairly generic roles as I thought I had too many playmakers and also I just wasn't getting enough players in the box...

Good luck I hope you make it work.

[drevil1969]

Using the new 'vision' I just got thumped 4-1 at home to Liverpool, back to the drawing board!

Observations and things I tried:

The midfield 3 of kouyate, Noble and Obiang were very narrow. I tried playing wider and narrow but they just seemed to stay in a line. Kouyate was the left BWM(s), Obiang next to him as DLP (d) and Noble in the CAM position as an AM(s). I had Kouyate and Obiang swapping. I was hoping they would take turns to drop deeper and pick up the ball.

I brought Carroll on and made him a TM(a), also brining on Antonio as a W(a). Changed moses on the right to a W(a) and put Payet as a TQ. got some crosses in but they were poor and Mignolet gobbled them up.

Sakho, who played as a CF(s) (I think) kept giving the ball away and I tried to reduce his passing but he either gave silly passes away OR held the ball for too long and lost possession

Payet, when he was out on the left as an IF(a) or (s) he also got doubled up on and kept losing the ball. I tried giving him more roaming, more creative freedom but nothing changed

96 balls were intercepted. Can only think I was moving the ball around too slow perhaps. Although I did change the tempo at one point and it appears I lost the ball almost exactly the same amount of times

18 crosses were attempted and 1 hit the target. Against Liverpool who like crosses as much as Dracula

kouyate missed 5 interceptions out of the entire 10 for the team

Some decent dribbling from Payet and Moses on the wings, but nothing came of it!

[drevil1969]

Now away to West Brom and created a different shape using some of your suggestions. The shouts remain the same

Gk (d) roll it out, distribute to centre backs

RB - FB(s)

LCB -CD(d)

RCB -CD(d)

LB - WB(a)

CDM - DLP(s)

LCM - BWM(s)

RCM - AP(a)

LW - IF(s)

RW - IF(a) with 'stay wider'

CF - Poacher.

[drevil1969]

Changed to structured as we were trying too many risky passes

Changed to false nine, too many long balls

Changed RW if support but get further forward

changed AP to roam

changed highly structered

changed F( to shorter passing

Team shorter passing. giving ball away too much

I am giving up. I was dominating and on top V West brom away and now 2-0 down! LOL

[Sussex Hammer]

Don't give up. You might inspire me to try again with tactics if you stick with it. Maybe we can come up with something between us and with a bit of luck Cleon may poke his head through the door and tell us where we are going wrong!!

I gave this a go this morning... Just resting a few key players in case you wonder why I'm not exactly playing my best 11 !!

Started off really well and Lanzini got on the end of a cross to score but found I was getting caught out too easily defensively. Changed the IF A (Lanzini) to a W S and swapped FB S to a WB A which strangely worked better defensively although that might have had something to do with changing the back four anyway to a FB S CD D CD C WB A. Having a Stopper in there was leaving me too open to the ball over the top.

The problem was as a WS Lanzini went very quiet as a WS doesn't really get you into the box. This is the quandary because I am always reluctant in this formation to use three attacking duties, ie WB A, CM A, IF A and yet you need penetration into the box and Song was getting in there quite well as was Lanzini as an IF A. Tried an IF S but again he doesn't get into the box enough.

Ok it was a fairly easy Europa League game but the positives were Payet and Obaings passing rate. Kouyate's was good too but Payet and Obiang had a good key pass rate. The downside was I conceded possession as a team and only half of all shots were on target although I find that the norm for both teams in 80% of the fixtures TBH.

Payet played really well as an AP A and that's the difficulty with making sure the CM A is on the right of the two man midfield because if I played the CM A on the left he would invade Payet's space. Hence why I chose a DLP S on the left of centre midfield and Obiang linked well with Payet and a lot of the time that allowed Cresswell to get forward because either the right back or right mid of the opposition was following Payet. The CF A seemed to have a decent impact on the game so that role seemed ok. I was quite happy with his shot rate. I know a BWM isn't an ideal choice in the DM strata as they can close down too much but as I say I have found a DM or an Anchor very poor in FM16 and do very little. I like the idea of a Half Back sitting with bombing wing backs but each time I use a half back in this formation I find the gap just grows for an opposition AM to find space. Possibly and option is to place a DLP D in there with say Noble playing the role and maybe a BWM S on the left of the CM two?

I have just thrown a few TI's in as a starting point. One thing I have noticed about download tactics is that a lot of them seem to have the same TI's with an awful lot ticked. The one that always makes me laugh is that if you have "low crosses" ticked you will actually get more headed goals than you do if you have "mixed crosses" ticked. I used Flexible as a starting point as well because I don't want to eradicate the effectiveness of the playmakers and I am not quite sure if anything above flexible means that playmakers are less effective.

[drevil1969]

I did have a tactic that was quite offensive and it created an overlap, will try to show what I had come up with later. I nicked a defensive base from someone else's tactic and tried to evolve it a little.

Sod it I will do it now, supposed to be studying!

This is the shape I have. It is very effective in regards to scoring goals.

And these are the team instructions

These instructions were taken from another tactic that played 4-4-2. The wide players were WM and told to stay narrow. That tactic also had 2 F9 so I used that as a base

The idea was that the right F9 would essentially play the same role as an F9 but in the AM spot with the same TIs.

I wanted the left and right IF to play the same way as the WM in the previous tactic and they also had similar TIs. The WM in which they were playing were as aggressive WM who would push forward and narrow

The 4-4-2 that this was taken from created a few overloads but it felt like it was cheating the game a little bit and tricking it with 2 F9. I want to play football and NOT trick the game, whats the point!

The IT for each player is

GK Fewer Risky Passes, Distribute to Centre Backs and Roll it Out.

WB (R/L) Close down more, Tackle harder and Mark tighter.

DC (L/R) Close down more, Tackle harder and Mark tighter.

DM (d) default

BWM (s) Shoot less often, Dribble less, Mark tighter and More direct passes

IF (L) default

AM (s) Dribble more, More risky and Move into channels

IF ® Sit narrower

F9 Shoot less, Tackle harder and Mark Tighter

Observations:

concedes lots of fouls, to the point where even on TI if I say tackle 'stay on feet' I seem to just back off and allow too much space.

Payet (left IF) is anonymous. Gets OK ratings but nothing like he should or I want.

AM (Normally Lanzini) is a revelation. His stats are ridiculous and scores goals for fun and is unplayable.

F9 without a decent player here (On my other save I have the ridiculously poor Loic Remy) you do not create loads. He tends to get offside easily

The IF on the right hand side, with the right player, can get into really good goal scoring positions.

You see, I have tried a few things. This tactic I just showed my need tweaking to defend better and to bring Payet more into the game.

I have also tried similar roles but as a 4-1-2-2-1 AND 4-2-2-1.

[drevil1969]

This is how I see West Ham playing under Bilic, well sort of.

This image makes me think am I seeing the shape of the team all wrong, I asked for a 4-2-3-1 template and this is the shape it gave, it may help me decide on roles!

Now this tells me that Byram and Cresswell should be advanced for balance. WB or CWB

The two central players must be pretty defensive. Maybe DLP (s) and BBM (s) something like that

The two wider players up top are quite narrow, again this leads me to think that they would be IF.

The biggest problem is Lanzini. In real life he finds pockets of space (as does Payet) with Moses/Antonio also becoming a 'spare' man. All 3 players help at the back but also seem to find little pockets when in possession. Not sure what Lanzini's role should be.

[Conflictinbanno]

I posted this before in another thread of someone trying to replicate our tactic and I'll be honest, I think most people see it differently.

I've always felt West Ham play more of a 4141/4231 hybrid of sorts but I will try to explain it how I've seen it.

GK - Adrian or Randolph are the last man of defence, although you will notice they almost always try to distribute the ball quickly most of the time to the full backs although sometimes he will use the CB's and the deepest midfield, whoever is in an easy throw to. I'll be honest, I think FM has both WH keepers a bit underrated.

LB - Cresswell is much more of a wing back than a full back, he gets up and down regularly and will always be wide, overlapping quite often with Payet ahead of him.

RB - Byram, from the few games I've seen him is very similar to how Cresswell plays and the same could be said when Antonio has played here, much more tempted to get forward when the chances arise, however when Tomkins played here, because he is a natural CB, he was more reluctant to get as far forward.

CB's - this to me has not changed at all whoever we have played, they will try to play it short most of the time, however if under pressure not afraid to clear their lines or go longer if given the time (much more frequent when Carroll is playing as he is such a good target).

DM - Most of the time this season I have felt this is Kouyate who I don't think is the best holder and does burst forward now and then, but mostly will be our deepest midfielder, he reminds me of maybe a DM/S but if Obiang comes on for Lanzini then I feel Obiang takes this position and is very rarely seen bursting forward (maybe a DM/D or Anchor) and Kouyate moves into a CM position.

CM's - the main combination here is Noble/Lanzini but as noted above, Obiang features quite often from the bench. I feel both players like to come deep to receive the ball, however Lanzini is much more likely to work his way into the box than Noble. Where Noble seems more cautious, maybe if Kouyate ventures further forward. Although I also notice, Lanzini will quite often fill in wider if Payet cuts inside, although that is probably hard to replicate in FM. I'm not sure I'd say they are full on play makers but they do get on the ball and try to dictate play a lot, maybe a DLP/S and AP/S combo could work but I feel it could be overkill in terms of Playmakers.

LM - Payet, everyone knows most about him and I feel he is a LM because he gets back and works quite hard for the team for most of the game, going forward he tends to start wider and cut inside near the edge of the area to have a shot or whip the ball in, I imagine in terms of how he plays is most like an IF/A or maybe but with more defensive work.

RM - Antonio is probably preferred here. I wouldn't call him an out right winger though, if the ball is on the opposite side of the pitch he quite often makes late runs deep into the box (as shows by a few of his goals this season), but with the ball he is happy to go to the byline or cut inside. It's quite a mixed way that he plays, although he definitely loves to run at players and that is noticed in his game a lot.

ST - Sakho again is preferred here, without the ball he presses the defence and tries to make them move the ball, when we have the ball he quite often runs into the channels early to offer an option and also making space for whoever is out wide to cut in and use the space, mostly seen when we try to get the ball forward quickly, when we take our time and work the ball forward, he is much more central and likely to push himself into the area hoping for a cross. Maybe an AF I'm not really sure.

I've felt WH prefer to counter, most like we have against all the bigger sides like Arsenal, Liverpool, Man Utd, Man City etc. however in the games we have been the favoured team and they have sat back against us, it has forced us to try and mix our style up a bit, much more patient in the final third especially, working the ball out wide and crossing is quite a big feature of how we play, while Lanzini and Payet seem to be the two who take our longer shots (although there's been quite a few from Noble too, which would make me feel this year he has been much less likely to sit deep like he did under BFS and would make me think he isn't much of a DLP and more of a CM/S).

I'll be honest, I think replicating this side could be quite hard, mainly because I don't think some of WH's players are rated as highly as they possibly are but more because it is quite a hard system to get right (although I imagine the likes of herne, RTH, Cleon and THoG could make it look easy haha). These are my interpretations though below (I couldn't begin to think of TI's and PI's overall to get it spot on though).

GK/D - Adrian/Randolph

WB/S - Cresswell

CD/D - Ogbonna/Tomkins

CD/D - Reid/Collins

WB/S - Byram/Antonio (Tomkins when here is probably a FB/S or FB/D or maybe even LFB)

DM/S - Kouyate (Obiang DM/D)

WM - Payet (PI's to match that of a IF/Playmaker role to may him cut in, try risky passes, dribble more, have more creative freedom etc)

AP/S - Lanzini

CM/S - Noble/Kouyate (might be quite hard to get Noble to see the ball as much as he does in real life like a DLP/S but I feel he quite often crops up on the edge of the area now, also could be a gamble as there are no defend duties in midfield if you use the favoured choices of Kouyate, Noble and Lanzini. Also if Obiang plays I would see the 3 change, so DM/D, CM/S for Kouyate and DLP/S for Noble)

WM - Antonio (PI's to dribble more definitely. If Emenike plays here then I think he is very similar just without the dribble more option)

AF - Sakho/Emenike (If Carroll comes on this definitely changes to a TM/A)

I'm not sure if I'm right in my thinking but that is how I've interpreted our style, I think people use 4231 as a generalisation based on the team we have. It probably becomes a 4231 with the ball as Lanz/Noble drop deeper to help Kouyate with a simple pass while the other pushes up a bit along with Payet and Antonio out wide. I wouldn't say we play short either, I think it depends. They mix it up a hell of a lot.

[drevil1969]

Other things to take into consideration are from the WHU official website. When Bilic was first employed they mentioned how he is, very briefly, tactic wise. They stated:

"Slaven Bilic favoured an attacking 4-2-3-1 system in 23 of his 34 Super Lig matches in charge"

"The 4-2-3-1 shape is based around two attacking full-backs, two deep-lying midfielders to protect the back four, three fluid, creative and goal-getting attacking midfielders and a versatile, mobile and clinical centre forward."

"finishing in third place in each of his two seasons in charge and dominating the majority of matches they played in terms of possession."

"Bilic’s Besiktas favoured a short passing game and possession football, controlling the game in the opposition half of the pitch.

On average, Besiktas enjoyed 55 per cent of the ball and completed 81 per cent of their passes last season in the league "

"Passing-wise, Besiktas averaged 370 short passes per game, good for 80 per cent of their overall passes made, along with 70 longer passes and 22 crosses"

"Encouragingly, Besiktas were a balanced attacking unit, going forward with purpose and width on both flanks"

"Last season, Besiktas attacked exactly the same percentage of the time – 38 per cent – down the right and left side of the pitch"

"Defensively, Bilic’s side were compact and well organised, conceding less than a goal a game and finishing among the Super Lig leaders in tackles, blocks, interceptions and clearances made."

"If they had any weaknesses, Bilic’s side could be caught out by opposition teams playing on the counter-attack, while their offensive attitude and high defensive line sometimes made them susceptible to attackers breaking their offside trap."

Now this I would say is something he has replicated at West Ham, apart from the red cards that they also mention, West Hams discipline has been excellent this season. But this also tells me quite alot, just the biggest problem is envisioning this in FM!

This was something people noted about Besiktas when Bilic was in charge, from another forum and it rings true now. they too were having difficulty replicating, be it an older version of FM.

"Besiktas plays a wide 4-2-3-1 with a solid defending, two players in the mid are both defensive players and they have a really good ball winning ratio, pressing the opposition endlessly. However, Im not sure if I can put two Ball Winning Midfielders to mid or work it out like slaven bilic did in real life"

Here. could you have BWM X2, one on support and one on defend?

"He puts the Jose Sosa as Advanced Playmaker I guess( AMC ), in front of these two ball winning midfielders I mentioned. (who are Atiba Hutchinson and Veli Kavlak) still not sure how to work that out in FM as there wont be a transition part between these player"

One of the many problems I had, I think LOL!

"Team always defend together and always attack together, they move as a whole but playing Very Fluid in FM with Besiktas would be suicide since the squad is not really qualified to do the job like that"

Despite team reports suggesting it would not be that easy to replicate, Bilic has proven it can be done. So my thinking would be perhaps less extreme and go with Fluid.

Someone on another forum, playing an older version of the game came up with this

Now this looks promising and might be a very strong base. Someone saying that they won a game 10-1 using this! With some PI this could e a great starting point and maybe build from here.

From offthepost, they reviews when Besiktas met Liverpool in the Europa league, when bilic was in charge.

They started 4-2-3-1.

"the plan was to rescue the tie by pressurising Liverpool from the start with a high tempo approach"

"Demba Ba overcame his calf problem so he led the high pressing by occupying Liverpool’s central defenders as the centre forward. Gokhan Tore and Olcay Sahan pressed from the sides of midfield"

"The back-four backed that high pressing approach by keeping a high defensive line while Atiba Hutchinson and Veli Kavlak protected the defenders as the defensive midfielders."

"When in possession, Hutchinson and Kavlak still remained in front of the central defenders as insurance against Liverpool’s attacking midfielders. That allowed Serdar Kurtulus and Daniel Opare to charge down the flanks from full-back positions and add width to Besiktas’ attacks"

"In forward positions, Jose Sosa floated in between the lines looking to link up play and push forward to support Ba. Right attacking midfielder Tore drifted inside to join Sosa in affecting the game centrally, "

Now for me THIS is key. This is what Payet AND lanzini does, how to replicate this in FM is the question though!

"while Sahan kept the width down the left flank looking to exploit the space between Liverpool’s wingback Jordon Ibe and their right centre-back Kolo Toure."

Again, KEY. Bilic does the exact same thing but with Antonio or Moses doing that job. How to replicate it!?

From tomkinstimes.com

"Tore and Sahan, five minutes into the second half, swapped sides and kept cutting infield to cause an overload in the middle, again similar to Mourinho’s approach at Stamford Bridge"

they mention the overload, something I think I would be keen to replicate in FM

"Besiktas’ increased attacking threat, resulting in a goal, highlighted all the flaws with Rodgers’ 3-1-4-2 formation. The danger out wide was being exploited with excellent movement from Bilic’s forward players and full-backs."

http://www.socceracme.com/tactical-analysis-liverpool-besiktas-europa-league/2362

Here they talk of similar things

"Besiktas lined up in a 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot which really was a waste of a man, while Demba Ba was often isolated up front while his support cast (Gokhan Tore and Olcay Sahan, the wide men in a trapezoidal midfield) was kept busy by the Liverpool wide men."

this tells me that the wide men are IF as well, but crucially talks of the double pivots!

taken from http://anfieldindex.com/12882/liverpool-v-besiktas-europa-league-preview.html

this gives an interesting insight as well, firstly the shape

this is interesting as it shows Sahan playing the Payet role

Sosa the Lanzini role

and Tore the Moses/Antonio role

They also mention

"Jose Sosa will plot attacks from the space between the opposition midfield and defence, occasionally making forward runs of his own, whilst former Chelsea youth star Gökhan Töre will drift from his position on the right wing, often becoming a second striker."

"Similarly, the German born Turkish international Olcay Şahan will start from a station wide on the left, but look cut inside onto his stronger right foot."

Again leaning towards IF

"Any width going forward will be provided by the full backs, with Brazilian full back (say no more) Ramon operating on the left, and either Serdar Kutulus or Daniel Opare marauding down the right. If either full back gets forward to join the attack, then Liverpool could exploit the space left behind them after winning back possession."

"The Turkish side’s 4-2-3-1 can easily morph into a 4-1-4-1, with one of the two holding midfielders assuming a more box-to-box role supporting both Sosa in attack, and the other deeper midfielder in defence."

This is where must find the setting that gets the IF to join in the defence but it also suggests some roles for players. IN real life the B2B could very much be Kouyate (Very underrated in FM) and the deeper midfield (DLP?) Noble.

So this tells me quite alot, putting it together is the fun part!

[drevil1969]

Thank you Cleon! Without replying you reply in another thread about 4-2-3-1 may just have helped me see the shape and the way I am trying play in yet another new light!

This thread:

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/455884-The-4231-and-2-Man-Midfield

And this comment from Cleon could be crucial!

"Personally if I wanted to create a proper 4231 that reflected real life I'd use 4 defenders, 2 DMC, 1MC, ML, MR and a Striker." and also this

"The AP is a mobile role. My point is a system isn't any good or consistent if it has to rely on one specific player to link play up. There will be times it won't work and even making subtle role changes or player changes might not be enough. You need more than one way to link play, to attack etc"

Now, I currently have Fm running and have tried using some of Cleons advise and its not bad at all, a great base to start from

SK - D (Distribute to FB and Quick throw)

LB and RB - WB(s)

LCB was a BPD but Ogbonna kept playing silly passes so reverted to a CD(d)

RCB - CD(d)

Now just in front of LCB I have a DCM and he is playing as BWM(s) I had him as (d) but he was taking the same space up on the pitch as Ogbonna

In front of the RCB I have a DLP(s). I switched between BWM(d) and BWM(s). Neither were closing down like I hoped or holding their shape. I tried the DLP role off the back off this statement "My point is a system isn't any good or consistent if it has to rely on one specific player to link play up."

On the left of midfield I have WM(a) with Dribble more, roam and cut inside.

On the right of midfield he also is WM(a) but with Dribble more, get further forward and fewer risky passes

In the centre I have AP(a) with get further forward and pass it shorter.

Up front is a DLF (s)

Team instructions are

Control, fluid and

Lower Tempo

Slightly higher D-Line

More Closing Down

Prevent Gk Distribution

Get Stuck in

Play out of defence

Pass into space

Retain possession

Look for overlap

and

Work ball into the box

The shape is

CF

WM AP WM

DM DM

WB CB CB WB

SK

Overlaps everywhere now and breaking with such pace and power! WOW. Still getting offside more than I would like and need to improve the defending but onto something here!

[Sussex Hammer]

Really intrigued on how this is going. I had a little think and disregarding shape and roles I was thinking purely duties for a West Ham 11.

Adrian - D

Byram - S/A?

Reid - D

Ogbonna - D

Kouyate - S

Noble - S

Lanzini - A/S?

Payet - A/S?

Antonio - A/S?

Sakho - A

So four "not sures" IMO no real defensive roles in the midfield.

Re your line up in post 12 would WP....AP.....WP possibly work? Three playmakers across the CM strata to link play up rather than one?

[drevil1969]

So after adjusting in the last game I was not playing well and losing to Sparta. By the end I was on top and starting to dominate. Conceded a silly goal so will need to improve the defensive side of the tactic. Early days I am quite happy.This is the tactic I will be using for the next match and I will show the analysis afterwards as much as I can.

Here I am hoping to see Payet move forward and into the IF position

Antonio to charge forward

Obiang to join in, almost playing as a Box 2 Box.

And Noble to also offer an outlet.

I decided on making Kouyate a DLP after reading this from Cleon in another thread "The AP is a mobile role. My point is a system isn't any good or consistent if it has to rely on one specific player to link play up. There will be times it won't work and even making subtle role changes or player changes might not be enough. You need more than one way to link play, to attack etc"

So I am hoping that he, or whoever plays there offers me another passing option.

Now also here I would like to add that I know the players are not fresh and also lanzini is missing. Well he is injured and Bilic in real life has asked Noble to play further forward.

the instructions are

PI are

GK Distribute To Full Backs and Distribute Quickly

AP Get Further Forward and Pass It Shorter

WM(L) Dribble More, Roam From Position and Cut Inside With Ball

WM® Dribble More, Get Further Forward and Fewer Risky Passes

I am against Newcastle, this is the team report. I am also not putting in any Opposition Instructions. (Not confident on these but think these could be crucial to being better defensively.

I am home and they are 19th.. Odds are 4/5 (F), 2/1 draw and 3/1 for Newcastle to win. Classed as comfortable favourites.

Perhaps I should do some screen shots of the players to really break things down? Or should I do what Bilic has appeared to do, play a certain way and get the players to fit into that way.

[drevil1969]

1st minute Noble sprays a lovely cross field ball to Payet who feeds in a dangerous ball into the box. Byram has a throw on and throws it to Sakho who has come short, he turns and passes into the box to an unmarked Antonio who gets closed down and shoots straight at Krul. Good start!

2ND minute, Krul passe short to Mbemba but everyone is marked and he clears the ball straight out! Short throw on by cresswell to Sakho who gets tackled but before Newcastle can go anywhere, Noble, Obiang, Cresswell and Kouyate combine to win the ball back. With Payet even joining in! After winning the ball back a nice passing moves between Obiang and co feeds the ball to Cresswell, he feeds it long to Sakho but the 2nd ball falls to Noble who has moved forward and in space.

Antonio is given the ball via a lovely Noble pass and is doubled up on, but still manages to skip past his markers, getting to the byline crossing for Sakho forcing a great save from Krul in the 6 yard box! the ball falls to Payet but he is crowded out and they clear. 2 minutes and 1 second played and 2 shots, 2 on target and one clear cut chance! Great start!

3rd minute.Cresswell on left throws into Payet who turns and feeds Kouyate in space. he moved forward waiting for the run of Antonio, hoping he cuts inside. The run doesn't happen and Kouyate is tackled. Newcastle hit the ball forward to Ayoze, he gets the ball before Ogbonna, passes to Doumbia and the break is on! But Doumbia tries to feed Ayoze in again but Ogbonna covers and intercepts. He passes to Reid who passes to Noble centrally who is loads of space. Noble passes to Antonio and he moves the ball inside, passing to Sakho who is now free. The movement is pretty fast and smooth. Sakho sprays a pass out to the left to Payet who reads it....

Payet feeds the ball back towards kouyate who has made himself free (Although Obiang was free also.) Kouyate passes to Noble who is free outside the area, He passes to Antonio who goes around the outside of the Full Back and whips a cross in to Sakho, inside the 6 yard box! GOAL!

At this point I should add I have Low crosses set as well, i had forgotten!

The goal analysed

Part 1: the throw on came from Cresswell who threw to Payet,

Part 2: he turned and passed into Kouyate who was free

Part 3: Kouyate runs in the direction of the blue line waiting for the run from Antonio

part 4:The run never comes and Kouyate is tackled. The resulting ball is put forward towards Ayoze

With Kouyate not making the pass he gets tackled by Anita. he quickly moves the ball to Ayoze and Ogbonna tries to close him down but misses his tackle. Ayoze then passes too Doumbia, with Ogbonna out of position a break could be on!

With Ogbonna missing his tackle, Doumbia has the ball (circled in red) He hesitates to pass and Ogbonna is able to get in the way with a neat interception

Ogbonna, on his way to getting back into position is composed enough to pass to Reid. He passed outside to Byram who find Noble in space

Noble sweeps the ball, no hesitation who is now running at the Newcastle defense with pace and power. Antonio passes inside to Sakho who has loads of space. Good choice, he is amrked by Newcastle players and passes to a 'spare' man

After receiving the ball from Antonio in loads of space, Sakho is able to sending a sweeping ball to Payet who runs onto it

With an instant pass back to a free man (Kouyate) West Ham are looking like they might overload. The ball could easily have gone to Obiang here!

Kouyate does not hesitate to pass to Noble, who swiftly feeds Antonio. Byram is an option on the overlap but Antonio surges forward without him

Antonio surging past his man feeds a ball into Sakho who has a tap in. Pleased with that goal!

[drevil1969]

I know it is only 3 minutes in, we are playing the 19th place side, we are home and big favourites, but some early analysis

The passes in the first 3 minutes, pretty happy. Generally quite short passes and only two intercepted. One from a throw on and one from Cresswell when he hit a ball towards Sakho.

The shape is pretty good, although the central players look a little narrow. Not sure how to adjust this and not sure I even have too! Any suggestions?

I wont update agains until the 30 minute regardless of what happens. I wont change mentality or anything, I am hoping Newcastle attack a bit and see how it holds up to a more attacking team.

[drevil1969]

Newcastle were playing a very deep 4-4-2. I would argue so deep that it is/was!

CF CF

LWB DM DM RWB

LB CB CB RB

16 minutes my personal observations are:

they had a chance just after I scored and split a hole in the middle of our defence. Doumbia winning the ball from Reid, passing to Ayoze who feeds Doumbia back in, in through the centre. By the time he arrives on the edge of the area he is surrounded by Kouyate, Byramand Ogbonna. Reid and Obiang are just closing in on him. He shoots from just inside the area, under pressure, straight at Adrian. A better striker might have scored Must do better.

At times they cannot get out of their half, always us winning second balls

my CM appear too deep, when gk has it they are as deep as centre backs and not sure how to rectify this. Suggestions? Will see if its a common problem.

We look good and composed on the ball, no panicking when in possession

9 minutes Sakho fed, one on one with keeper should have scored

Payet always looking for space

11 minutes another good chance Sakho straight at Krul. Created by Payet game says lovely move

Some stats, firstly match stats

Really happy with this, highlighted the ones I am particularly happy with

Not just the amount of chances, the fact so many are on target

2 clear chances in the first 15 minutes, happy days!

62% possession, quite happy

Passes pretty decent, will look closer at poor passes and see if I can do anything about it. See if its a trend.

Now on closer inspection, it looks as if the main culprits for balls being intercepted are Cresswell with 5, 3 kouyate (playing as a DLP) and Noble with 2 playing as AP. With Lanzini back I expect less intercepted AND Noble, if I drop him deeper to DLP, less there as well. I may have to reduce creative freedom for one or the other. Maybe reduce passing length. Cresswell Maybe both, not sure yet.

Average positions were pretty good. Although the central players were a little narrow and the wide players maybe too far away. Not sure how to rectify this

Heat map is not showing us too much here, other than we are covering a lot of ground all over the pitch.

[drevil1969]

19: Newcastle had a half chance when we did not clear properly. Definite work to be done defensively

26: Cresswell YELLOW CARD

27.58: The back line is virtually 6 players! Will have to show a screenshot I think

From right to left. Byram, Reid, Kouyate, Obiang, Ogbonna and Cresswell. Must do something about this. Change of roles perhaps? Kouyate is DLP(s) and Obiang is BWM(s)

Changed Kouyate to a HB. The idea being the description. With a HB the central defenders push up more and HB deeper. I was hoping he would push team up a bit AND push Obiang further up. It did not work.

I changed to RGA and lets see what this does. I am trying to get my two defensive midfielders to not sit too deep.

After winning the ball and feeding it too Antonio, the 3 central midfielders have surged into the area, taking Newcastle defensive midfielders with them, but not covering the back 2 centre backs. As RGA Kouyate is far more forward, may have to rethink this, possibly make Obiang a BWM (d). Kouyate is now FAR too far forward, so will change again I think.

Kouyate is now a DM(D), lets see what he does. Again he appears to be running around a little like a headless chicken! really want him to just sit but also offer himself as an outlet. No, he is closing down the wrong people, so changed him to a BWM(d) I now have BWM support and defend sitting next to each other

After one two many fouls I have decided to change tackle hard to stand off.

The BWM are holding the centre better as well, creating a shield, but now when I get the ball, I have no one to transition through the middle anymore.

HT1-0 up and Newcastle have come more into it. I wanted to see how the tactic stood up to being attacked and there is some work to do.

At HT I have had a rethink. The LDM (Obiang) will become an anchor man with the RDM (Kouyate) becoming the DLP(s). I am hoping that Kouyate can venture forward a little, offering a pivot and Obiang will just tidy up behind him.

The 3 centre midfielders still seem a bit narrow for me, not sure how to adjust this

The DLP(s) is crucial to retaining possession. We are holding onto the ball much much better and bringing the ball out better. Oh and on 51 minutes Payet scores a screamer!

Kouyate is now bringing the ball forward and they are having problems with him, maybe Anchor with DLP is the answer!

On the break they SHOULD have scored, shooting from point blank range straight at Adrian. With that I am going to go and change to counter. Nothing else, see if we can get at them with some pace, breaking. hoping as well that we just hold the ball for slightly longer if chance does not come up straight away

60 minute the change happens. (ref for me so I can go back and see what happens tomorrow) It appears too many long balls are being played, tempted to go defensive..

defensive it is,although inviting pressure. Might go back to Control and just change the roles/mentalities> Defensive looked more solid defensively but no outball

Role changes

WB become FB

AP(a) becomes AP(s)

Straight away worked ball up the pitch and chance for Sakho.

All in all we came flying out of the box and the tactic certainly needs work defensively. A better team would have scored so need to work on that. Defensive is too deep while Control is not enough movement. With the role changes, I have gone to Counter. Looking better now.

Fresh legs. Antonio off > Moses on.

Reid (Booked) off > Tomkins on

So have I discovered how to make West Ham play the bilic way on counter AND trying to get a goal?

Defensive improvements needed without a doubt,maybe using OI. Overall the tactic may have evolved a bit. Will show the final analysis tomorrow if I can. Its 2.55am, early start and being nagged lol

Just before I finish and give some kind of conclusion for tonight. Wondering about Ogbonna as BPD and how that would effect the players in front of him. Trying to prevent the twom defensive midfielders from dropping so deep at kick off from keeper.

2-0 FT and plenty to ponder

[drevil1969]

So after sort of giving a running commentary (while pretty tired) It ended up being a bit of a mess in all honesty, so I will try now to condense everything.

From watching the game, with the ball we played some lovely football, but this came with some issues. Some players were quite defending as much as I would hope and the shape of the team was not quite what I was looking for. The pace of some of breaks was great though and we had some really slick passes. While watching I am was still unsure of which partnership to play in the centre of with my defensive partnership. Anchor and DLP allowed me to bring the ball out, but the DLP was sometimes so deep to collect the ball that my back line was a back 6 at times! I want him picking the ball up further up field

The PI for the BWM I could use (He became a Anchor) COULD be 'hold position' but will this make him TOO static? I could instead give him 'Get Further Forward' which may stop him from dropping so deep when we have the ball. Description "Encourages players to adopt a more attacking mentality and seek to make an impact on the game in advanced areas" My concern with this is will they get too far forward and not protect the back four? I am trying to get my defensive midfielder too not come so deep when I have won back possession. I am tempted to try this.

The PI for my DLP already had "Hold Position" and my concern with him was that he was not shielding enough. Now to some analysis, remember this is roughly what I am trying to replicate in terms of shape and movement, I am pretty happy with the style of football and think it is pretty accurate:

So, the average positions for West Ham V Newcastle. I am only going to have a look at the first 15 minutes as after that I did some tinkering.

I am relatively happy and is pretty similar to the image above BUT There are problems with it.

My 2 defensive central midfielders, are they a little too narrow? I am not sure.

Is the space between the the striker and two wide attackers two far apart?

I also wonder if the WBs could be further forward?

Looking at the passes there is room for improvement too. Looking again at the first 15 minutes

Cresswell has been singled out here as he had the most balls intercepted. This might be down to just not a great passer, or simply he had poor passing options

Looking at each pass from left of the screen to the right:

1)Ogbonna past the ball to him and he was put under pressure from Sissoko, right behind him> Could this of been rectified if Cresswell had been a CWB?

the first part of this Ogbonna, trying to keep possession passes to Cresswell. With no options and no out ball all Cresswell can do is kick the ball away, although he did clear it safe. BUT Kouyate is so deep here, the DLP is behind Ogbonna, that is wrong and I must find out how to rectify that. I am starting at this point to think a bit asymmetrical team shape here.

2)

Here I think this is a little harsh calling this an intercepted pass. The ball is sent over from Newcastle's left and Cresswell gets in and his pass falls to no one. What I will say is Kouyate, circled, is perhaps a little too narrow and close to the BWM. Had he been further over to his right he might of picked that ball up. I MUST work out how to do that.

3)

Like the last one, this is a little harsh (Or should I be demanding more?) After a nice little interchange between Ogbonna, Obiang and Kouyate, Cresswell lifts the ball forward to Sakho. The ball gets blocked but the rebound falls to Noble moving forward.

4)Is a throw on and I have not set these up

5)As is this one

6)

This was sloppy and might also of been down to lack of options. Although the easy pass to Payet is missed. The first line is the throw in, the second is the pass from Sakho to Cresswell and the third is the ball that was overpassed to Payet.

All these together makes me think Cresswell needs to be controlled in some way regarding his passes. Lets look at Cresswell

From here was can see that Cresswell is fine for his passing ability, but it is his vision (9) and his decisions (11) that let him down. I think he may have to have PI and be told to reduce the chances of him playing poor balls. The option to remove some creative freedom has gone, so the only choice here is Fewer Risky Passes, which sounds like the same thing.

The other passes that were missed I am not so worried about. Kouyate having passing (13) Vision (10) I am OK as he only lost the ball going forward and he is only playing due to injury to another player. Same as Noble, although he appears to be well over rated with (16) for both vision and passing. Maybe I should look at him more closely.

Noble only had two passes that were intercepted.

The first one here he receives the ball in space from Antonio who surges towards the Newcastle goal. Noble tries to pick him out by they are so deep it is intercepted, I am OK with this and happy Noble is trying to pick a pass like that, looking for a runner

Again, fairly happy with this one. Sakho with time passes to Noble who tries to pick out the run of Payet. A very defensive Newcastle manage to intercept the ball this time.

All in all I am fairly happy and tempted to try a few things. I have 13 days until a next tough game Chelski (A). As it is international week I may decide to have a friendly to try a few things out.

Changes I will make are

Cresswell to be told to have fewer risky passes.

TEMPTED to try and put the WB on (A) as opposed to (S), hoping this will push the two wide players in front of them further forward.

TEMPTED to ask those two further forward to play narrower.

The shape I am tempted to try, maybe in my friendly that I just arranged with Blackburn is:

Straight away this needs correcting. Noble should be AP(S)

The thinking behind this is why I have red circles around players

Obiang I want to just sit and try and shield the back four. I may shuffle him over to whoever is dropping deeper depending on opponents shape etc.

Kouyate was far too deep when sat next to Obiang. I hope by pushing him forward he drops only deep enough to show passing options to Cresswell, Obiang and Ogbonna.

Noble I want him to try and control a little bit centrally. Picking up the ball from Kouyate, was happy with how he played in the last game so something similar would be good.

Payet I am hoping he covers some space and thinking I might add "Stay Narrower" to his PI.

Antonio also did what I wanted and I think he played alot like he does under Bilic.

What do you think?