Defensive Stability and Rapid Transitions - A Project

[RocheBag]

Ramble:

I've played a lot of Football Manager, and I've had a lot of success. For years I've basically only played one way. Counter, direct, deep, rigid, 4-1-4-1. Basically copied and pasted the same team instructions into the tactic ever since the tactics creator was implemented. In FM 16 however, I haven't quite been able to get it working. I've had just as much success, but I haven't seen the style of football that I want, and to me that's just as, if not more important. In FM 14, the game I've played most in the series, using my counter tactic, pretty much every time we won the ball the team would charge up the pitch at pace, almost to a fault. In FM 16, the counters are very effective, but for whatever reason I can't get them to happen quite as often.

So I've decided to do something different. I've never made a thread like this before, and I'm trying a different system than usual. So I figured why not make a thread, lay out my thought processes, and maybe we can all work on this system of mine together.

The System:

I want to build my system around a few fundamental principles. This will be the DNA of the club, and will never change.

• Solid defense, I'd rather win 1-0 than 3-2 if I had the choice
  
• Rapid transitions. I want numbers sprinting ahead every time we win the ball, and sprinting back every time we lose it
  
• A strong, powerful Striker who can hold the ball up for midfield support and also finish
  
• A deep playmaker. This is a stylistic one, but I want my main creative outlet to be deep
  

I'll be using Chelsea for this for a number of reasons. They're the club I support, so I know the players well, the players are suited to this brand of football, and I don't use them very often.

The Tactic:

This will be the starting point, as I'm taking this system slowly. Rather than tick all the boxes I always use, I'm going to start from a general base, and introduce changes slowly after analyzing issues.

The idea is that Fabregas dictates the entire game from deep. I'd like the ball to find him when we win it, and for him to pick out a pass between the front four to set us off. In the final third, I'm hoping to see Hazard cutting inside causing issues, Baba overlapping on the left, and Willian providing some width out on the right. Chelsea have no good attacking right back, so he will just stay deep and be ready to go back to defend. Fabregas will hopefully follow the ball up the pitch, and be available for passes from the front four if the first attack breaks down.

The thing I'm not sure about is the partnership between Oscar and Diego Costa. I never (read: never) play with an AMC, and thus I very rarely have an attack duty Striker, so this is one area I'm very curious to see how it plays out. CF-A is the only attack role that holds up the ball, and I want Diego doing this to get Hazard, Oscar, and Willian ahead of him.

Mentality:

Attacking - My criticism of my former Counter strategy was that there wasn't enough urgency in attack. The counters were great when they happened, but there wasn't enough. I didn't want to see my players standing around pinging the ball back and forth, I want the ball going forward 100% of the time. Attacking should help me achieve this.

Shape:

Structured - I want a little more space between the attacking players than usual. I'd rather see three passes over 30 yards, rather than a handful of shorter passes with the team moving up the pitch together. Hoping this will lend itself to getting forward faster in general. Subject to change.

Team Instructions:

Drop Deeper - Chelsea have no pace in defense, and I don't like the idea of playing a high line. I want to defend deeper and then burst forward at pace, not play the naturally high line my Attacking mentality would have me play.

Stay on Feet - This is one I just pretty much always use. I don't want my players diving into tackles every. Stay on your feet, play solid defense, and also when we win the ball there's no one lying around, everyone is ready to go forward.

Higher Tempo - I want the ball moving as fast as humanly possible. If I think this is causing issues I can take it off, but in general I want no time wasted whatsoever.

Player Instructions:

The front four have Close Down More, as the Drop Deeper shout has negated their closing a bit, so I've used this to bump it back up. The idea is that when we lose the ball, the Striker and three Attacking Midfielders will press to win it back, at least slowing the opposition down to give the rest of the team time to drop back into their positions. Once the ball is in my half, I'm hoping to see the team stay behind the ball for the most part. If this makes things unbalanced I will change it.

The ML has Dribble More, Cut Inside, and Sit Narrower. This is Eden Hazard, and I want him causing all kinds of problems in the middle of the pitch. When he doesn't play, these instructions will be removed.

Things To Watch For:

The relationship between the Striker and AMC - Are they getting in each others way? Are they creating space for one another. Is the AMC getting ahead of the Striker in the final third?

Defense - Attacking sees us play a lot wider than I'm used to. Is this causing us to be leaky?

Transitions - Are they fast enough? Are the right people getting involved?

Final Third - If the initial attack breaks down do we have more options? Does the ball carrier have passes to make? Are our shots being rushed due to the high tempo?

That's it so far. I'm hoping this system will see us defend deep, and then burst forward like mad men. I will make another post when I've played a few matches to show it at work, and analyze some issues and changes etc.

Hoping everyone can get involved with this one, love to just chat about the system and see what kind of ideas you guys have for this type of football!

[RocheBag]

Game One: The Community Shield

Well, it wasn't good.

As you can see, we were battered. Let's take a look at what happened.

First, the positive. Our transitions were great, very fast and moved the ball forward with purpose. Here's an example:

This was originally from a free kick, but we had a good 20 seconds of defending before we won the ball. We gain possession and the ball is played up to Diego Costa as you can see. He does an excellent job holding it up, and from there we rush forward at pace.

Costa plays a diagonal ball for the onrushing Hazard. He takes one touch and then switches it all the way over to Willian on the right side. Willian taps the ball into the path of Oscar, who started his run near his own box.

Oscar hits it straight at Cech, but this is a great example of the fast transitions I expect to see from this system.

Now let's move into the negatives. Firstly, this was a common theme throughout the match:

A pass to Diego Costa doesn't find it's mark. Here's our position when the ball is intercepted by Coquelin. Fabregas is advanced, which I like, Matic is shielding the back four. So far so good. A pass is played into Ozil and:

Fabregas tracks back to cover him, and Matic steps up. I definitely don't want both my DMs chasing the same guy. This particular move came to nothing, but this was a worrying sight. Sometimes they did a good job of swapping between staying back and closing down, but overall they were a little too aggressive. Mentality? Closing down settings? We'll see.

Another negative from the match concerns our movement on the ball. Overall, this was a much too common sight:

Oscar recieves a pass, and looks at... absolutely nothing. Fabregas is marked, Matic has stayed back in defense, and the front three are pushed up against the back line of Arsenal. The midfield is a virtual wasteland, and Oscar has no choice but to ping a hopeful ball toward Costa which easily gets cut out. This continued to happen over and over.

Defensively we weren't too bad. Their first goal came from an error by Willian. Instead of controlling a pass he tried a weird header and turned the ball over in our own half. Their second was from a corner, which I'm not worried about. Corner goals go both ways and don't concern me in the least when analyzing my tactic. At the half, I made a couple of changes, and things worked a lot better. I'll go over those at the end.

So let's see how we did on the "things to watch for" from last post.

Things To Watch For:

The relationship between the Striker and AMC - Are they getting in each others way? Are they creating space for one another. Is the AMC getting ahead of the Striker in the final third?

They did get in each other's way quite a bit. They didn't create much space for each other. Oscar did get ahead of Costa but not as often as I'd like. Change coming.

Defense - Attacking sees us play a lot wider than I'm used to. Is this causing us to be leaky?

We looked shaky at times, but not too worrying just yet. Will keep an eye on this.

Transitions - Are they fast enough? Are the right people getting involved?

Very happy with this, no problems.

Final Third - If the initial attack breaks down do we have more options? Does the ball carrier have passes to make? Are our shots being rushed due to the high tempo?

The ball carrier was often isolated. Change coming.

Changes:

These are the changes we made at halftime, so we will stick with these for the next match.

AMC -> MC - Oscar was moved back to a central midfield role, to try to reduce isolation from the rest of the midfield. This puts him in a better position to defend, instead of just standing next to the opposition DMs.

CF-A -> CF-S - Because of losing the AMC, Diego Costa takes up a support role. Hoping this will reduce hopeless balls up by putting him closer to the midfield to link up

DMs -> Close Down Much Less - Hoping this sees them shield a little bit better instead of running around to chase the ball

So the system now looks like this:

Our next match is home to Liverpool, so not an easy one, but we should be looking to win. As you can see, Hazard and Azpilicueta both got injured in the last match, so we'll have to get by without them.

[EuanDewar]

I remember seeing you posting a lot in threads about Mourinho's Chelsea, which is a style I'm a big fan of myself so I'll be keeping track of this one

[RocheBag]

I remember seeing you posting a lot in threads about Mourinho's Chelsea, which is a style I'm a big fan of myself so I'll be keeping track of this one

Yep! That's the kinda style I love to watch, hoping to see some fact paced football. Thanks!

[Jonny2J]

Be interested to see how this goes, as I've toyed with a similar formation in the past but using counter mentality and duties rather than what you've done.

[James9]

Ramble:

I've played a lot of Football Manager, and I've had a lot of success. For years I've basically only played one way. Counter, direct, deep, rigid, 4-1-4-1. Basically copied and pasted the same team instructions into the tactic ever since the tactics creator was implemented. In FM 16 however, I haven't quite been able to get it working. I've had just as much success, but I haven't seen the style of football that I want, and to me that's just as, if not more important. In FM 14, the game I've played most in the series, using my counter tactic, pretty much every time we won the ball the team would charge up the pitch at pace, almost to a fault. In FM 16, the counters are very effective, but for whatever reason I can't get them to happen quite as often.

So I've decided to do something different. I've never made a thread like this before, and I'm trying a different system than usual. So I figured why not make a thread, lay out my thought processes, and maybe we can all work on this system of mine together.

The System:

I want to build my system around a few fundamental principles. This will be the DNA of the club, and will never change.

• Solid defense, I'd rather win 1-0 than 3-2 if I had the choice
  
• Rapid transitions. I want numbers sprinting ahead every time we win the ball, and sprinting back every time we lose it
  
• A strong, powerful Striker who can hold the ball up for midfield support and also finish
  
• A deep playmaker. This is a stylistic one, but I want my main creative outlet to be deep
  

I'll be using Chelsea for this for a number of reasons. They're the club I support, so I know the players well, the players are suited to this brand of football, and I don't use them very often.

The Tactic:

This will be the starting point, as I'm taking this system slowly. Rather than tick all the boxes I always use, I'm going to start from a general base, and introduce changes slowly after analyzing issues.

The idea is that Fabregas dictates the entire game from deep. I'd like the ball to find him when we win it, and for him to pick out a pass between the front four to set us off. In the final third, I'm hoping to see Hazard cutting inside causing issues, Baba overlapping on the left, and Willian providing some width out on the right. Chelsea have no good attacking right back, so he will just stay deep and be ready to go back to defend. Fabregas will hopefully follow the ball up the pitch, and be available for passes from the front four if the first attack breaks down.

The thing I'm not sure about is the partnership between Oscar and Diego Costa. I never (read: never) play with an AMC, and thus I very rarely have an attack duty Striker, so this is one area I'm very curious to see how it plays out. CF-A is the only attack role that holds up the ball, and I want Diego doing this to get Hazard, Oscar, and Willian ahead of him.

Mentality:

Attacking - My criticism of my former Counter strategy was that there wasn't enough urgency in attack. The counters were great when they happened, but there wasn't enough. I didn't want to see my players standing around pinging the ball back and forth, I want the ball going forward 100% of the time. Attacking should help me achieve this.

Shape:

Structured - I want a little more space between the attacking players than usual. I'd rather see three passes over 30 yards, rather than a handful of shorter passes with the team moving up the pitch together. Hoping this will lend itself to getting forward faster in general. Subject to change.

Team Instructions:

Drop Deeper - Chelsea have no pace in defense, and I don't like the idea of playing a high line. I want to defend deeper and then burst forward at pace, not play the naturally high line my Attacking mentality would have me play.

Stay on Feet - This is one I just pretty much always use. I don't want my players diving into tackles every. Stay on your feet, play solid defense, and also when we win the ball there's no one lying around, everyone is ready to go forward.

Higher Tempo - I want the ball moving as fast as humanly possible. If I think this is causing issues I can take it off, but in general I want no time wasted whatsoever.

Player Instructions:

The front four have Close Down More, as the Drop Deeper shout has negated their closing a bit, so I've used this to bump it back up. The idea is that when we lose the ball, the Striker and three Attacking Midfielders will press to win it back, at least slowing the opposition down to give the rest of the team time to drop back into their positions. Once the ball is in my half, I'm hoping to see the team stay behind the ball for the most part. If this makes things unbalanced I will change it.

The ML has Dribble More, Cut Inside, and Sit Narrower. This is Eden Hazard, and I want him causing all kinds of problems in the middle of the pitch. When he doesn't play, these instructions will be removed.

Things To Watch For:

The relationship between the Striker and AMC - Are they getting in each others way? Are they creating space for one another. Is the AMC getting ahead of the Striker in the final third?

Defense - Attacking sees us play a lot wider than I'm used to. Is this causing us to be leaky?

Transitions - Are they fast enough? Are the right people getting involved?

Final Third - If the initial attack breaks down do we have more options? Does the ball carrier have passes to make? Are our shots being rushed due to the high tempo?

That's it so far. I'm hoping this system will see us defend deep, and then burst forward like mad men. I will make another post when I've played a few matches to show it at work, and analyze some issues and changes etc.

Hoping everyone can get involved with this one, love to just chat about the system and see what kind of ideas you guys have for this type of football!

This is a thread I will be following closely. I had a discussion with Cleon last week about the 4231 formation with DMC's instead of MC's. I was very stubborn at first but now I am coming around to the idea. I think in your set up which is very similar to mine is the relationship between the AMC and Striker. Also as I was discussing with Cleon is how to get it all to link together. I hope this thread picks up some more views.

[rninejr]

u're exactly my opposite. been playing possession football for years but since now im trying to use small clubs I need to learn counter attacking system. Srsly, whenever i made a counter attack-intented tactic, it would ended up a possession tactic

Lookking forward for your analysis

[RocheBag]

Post 2 is updated with analysis of the Community Shield.

[RocheBag]

Liverpool Home

Much better this time, but not perfect:

We had significantly more good chances than they did, and one of their goals was from a corner, which for now I'm still willing to write off for tactical purposes.

Changes:

AMC -> MC - Worked a treat. The midfield was more compact and supported each other much better. Oscar still drove beyond the striker which I love to see.

DMs -> Close Down Less - Worked well, much more stable defensively, as shown here:

Oscar picks up the ball carrier, Fabregas marks the AMC, and Matic stays in a good position. Much better than the first match.

CF-A -> CF-S - Necessary change with no AMC, worked as intended.

What To Watch For:

Width - The team looks a little wide for my tastes. No changes yet, but I think playing narrower may help support in attack, and tighten up defensively.

Defensive Line - A little high maybe. Liverpool got in behind on more than one occasion, their one goal from open play coming when Clyne got by everyone and crossed from the byline. Will monitor this as well.

Things are improving. Shouldn't be long before I have this working as intended.

[sam allaguy]

Looks like an interesting thread. Doesn't playing on structured reduce the number of players in transitions? I would have thought fluid would get more guys involved.. Or does your attacking mentality affect this?

[johnnyyakuza78]

Interesting thread. I know you are looking at transitions but are you concentrating more of transitioning from defence to attack, but about when you lose the ball? How quickly are your players rushing back into position etc?

I am always dubious about those setting up more defensive tactics but going with an attacking mentality, because it's still generally a high risk mentality, even with a deeper line. So I'm just interested in how your side will work out, since your formation is set up for a deep 'shape keeping' style but everything else more about pressing and attacking.

[EuanDewar]

I think if I had one request for next year's iteration of the game it would be to just sort out this issue where you have to use counterintuitive methods to achieve what you want to. I can't imagine how confusing it must be for new players learning that the best way to create a certain style of play is to choose the exact opposite option within the game. (Don't mind me Roche, this isn't aimed at you. Just venting a bit).

[Cleon]

I think if I had one request for next year's iteration of the game it would be to just sort out this issue where you have to use counterintuitive methods to achieve what you want to. I can't imagine how confusing it must be for new players learning that the best way to create a certain style of play is to choose the exact opposite option within the game. (Don't mind me Roche, this isn't aimed at you. Just venting a bit).

Except what you say isn't true.

Interesting thread btw

[s1111]

I think if I had one request for next year's iteration of the game it would be to just sort out this issue where you have to use counterintuitive methods to achieve what you want to. I can't imagine how confusing it must be for new players learning that the best way to create a certain style of play is to choose the exact opposite option within the game. (Don't mind me Roche, this isn't aimed at you. Just venting a bit).

RocheBag's tactic is simply about being very aggressive with the ball and relatively passive without it. In what way does the game make doing this counter intuitive?

In his own words he wants "Solid defense, I'd rather win 1-0 than 3-2 if I had the choice. Rapid transitions. I want numbers sprinting ahead every time we win the ball". How does Attacking + Drop Deeper + Stay on Feet with a deep defensive formation in 4411 DM not sound the right thing to do to achieve this?

[rninejr]

I was about to suggest u to move oscar down to the Midfield strata but seems u've done your homework.

Some questions from me

1. Do u really need to use a higher Tempo setting as the main foundation? From what I've been trying in numerous matches, putting a Role+Duty that attracts more through pass from teammates (RMD, IF-A, P-A, CF-S/A etc) in the right places can also generate a quick transition. Lets say a single striker as CF-A while the rest of his teammates are on support or defense duty. My reason is, as you're using Chelsea, a big side with a very tight schedule, dont u find it difficult to keep your players fit through a whole season? Attacking mentality is fast-paced by default, imagine using a higher tempo+attacking mentality at hot weather. Perhaps a rotation system can help since u can get many players for the first team. But still, if a key player or worse, more than 1 key players get injured because of how physically demanding your system, it can possibly affect the title race isnt it? I myself using an attacking mentality but I prefer any tempo setting beyond normal are considered situational options

2. I dont know what instructions u gave to Eden Hazard but he seems to play wide enough .So, what is your reason, to give the left fullback an attack duty? what kind of support he can offer to Hazard?

Take a look at how streched your defense. The gap between your DCL n DL is quite big

Imagine if oscar lose the ball at this point (U didnt post more screenshots from the match against Liverpool so i dont know for sure how is putting oscar at the MC slot affect your transition)

3. Any plans against teams who stubbornly keeping possession n retaining the ball while sitting deep n compact, waiting for chance?

[shaunwwfc]

Obviously very interested in this thread and its development Rochebag. Great to see this thread.

[RocheBag]

Super busy with school and work so haven't had time to play today will look into another post tomorrow.

Looks like an interesting thread. Doesn't playing on structured reduce the number of players in transitions? I would have thought fluid would get more guys involved.. Or does your attacking mentality affect this?

The way I've always heard it was just that Structured would keep them a little further apart vertically, and give them a little less freedom, which is what I want. Like everything else though, it's subject to change.

Interesting thread. I know you are looking at transitions but are you concentrating more of transitioning from defence to attack, but about when you lose the ball? How quickly are your players rushing back into position etc?

I am always dubious about those setting up more defensive tactics but going with an attacking mentality, because it's still generally a high risk mentality, even with a deeper line. So I'm just interested in how your side will work out, since your formation is set up for a deep 'shape keeping' style but everything else more about pressing and attacking.

Yeah, the plan was to get the counters working the way I want first, then focus on shoring up the defense after. With the deep line, by default the defenders and defensive midfielders do have very low closing down settings, even on Attacking mentality.

Interesting thread btw

Thanks.

rninejr:

I was about to suggest u to move oscar down to the Midfield strata but seems u've done your homework.

Some questions from me

Yeah, he was too far up the pitch, and when in doubt I prefer to set them deep and let them go forward, rather than the other way around.

1. Do u really need to use a higher Tempo setting as the main foundation? From what I've been trying in numerous matches, putting a Role+Duty that attracts more through pass from teammates (RMD, IF-A, P-A, CF-S/A etc) in the right places can also generate a quick transition. Lets say a single striker as CF-A while the rest of his teammates are on support or defense duty. My reason is, as you're using Chelsea, a big side with a very tight schedule, dont u find it difficult to keep your players fit through a whole season? Attacking mentality is fast-paced by default, imagine using a higher tempo+attacking mentality at hot weather. Perhaps a rotation system can help since u can get many players for the first team. But still, if a key player or worse, more than 1 key players get injured because of how physically demanding your system, it can possibly affect the title race isnt it? I myself using an attacking mentality but I prefer any tempo setting beyond normal are considered situational options

Keeping players fit could be an issue, but I usually find myself maxing tempo anyway, as it's just the type of football I like to watch. I'm often screaming at the computer "PASS IT! WHY ARE YOU JUST STANDING THERE?" I can't stand to watch boring football. Rotation is always a must for me, and will be with this tactic as well.

2. I dont know what instructions u gave to Eden Hazard but he seems to play wide enough .So, what is your reason, to give the left fullback an attack duty? what kind of support he can offer to Hazard?

Hazard is set to sit narrower, cut inside, and dribble more, and his strongest foot is his right. He also has PPMs that lead him inside often. He's basically an inside forward.

Take a look at how streched your defense. The gap between your DCL n DL is quite big

Imagine if oscar lose the ball at this point (U didnt post more screenshots from the match against Liverpool so i dont know for sure how is putting oscar at the MC slot affect your transition)

Both Oscar being isolated and the width of the defense were things I covered in my posts, I'll continue to monitor those issues.

3. Any plans against teams who stubbornly keeping possession n retaining the ball while sitting deep n compact, waiting for chance?

For now the plan is to just pelt them with fast paced football. I haven't played a small club yet, so we'll have to take it as it comes.

Obviously very interested in this thread and its development Rochebag. Great to see this thread.

Thanks.

[rninejr]

for my 2nd question, the main question wasnt Hazard's instructions but why u gave the DL with an attack duty even though in practice it seems not quite compatible with Hazard in front of him perhaps

but yea waiting for more updates first

[rninejr]

for my 2nd question, the main question wasnt Hazard's instructions but why u gave the DL with an attack duty even though in practice it seems not quite compatible with Hazard in front of him perhaps

but yea waiting for more updates first

[shaunwwfc]

Any further updates RocheBag?

[Jonny2J]

Any further updates RocheBag?

Definitely this, I'd be interested to see what the progress is.

[shaunwwfc]

Real pity this thread never took off. Was looking forward to hearing more from OP given his previous input.