Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid)

[Joey Numbaz]

3 hours ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Used this system for 5 seasons so hopefully I can help you.

Does your DLP (D) have stays back at all times?

Who are your wide players, work rates?

Thanks!

So my choices for DLP(D) are:

Muhamed Besic, Lewis Cook and James McCarthy. I usually use McCarthy as the MCR though. I make him the less aggressive MC, Cleverley is the more aggressive, gets forward one. None of them has stays back at all times. The team seems to play much better defensively when Besic plays, he has a 17 work rate, 15 for positioning, 16 marking and 17 tackling. His main issue is all of the yellow cards.

Cook has runs with the ball through the center, Besic runs with the ball often, McCarthy doesn't have any related PPMs (just short simple passes and refrains from taking long shots).

My wide players are typically Baines and Coleman. Baines has a work rate of 17, and so does Coleman.

When they are being rested, I use Christian Pulisic (13 but he's young and I'm squad building some), Louis Schaub (also 13, also young) and Kevin Mirallas (11).

Looking back at the 'disaster games', against Chelsea, Pulisic and Schaub started on the wings (4-1 loss), and Cook was the DLPD. Cook had a 5.9 rating, Pulisic a 6.8 and Schaub an 8.7 (had an assist).

Against Spurs (the 5-3 loss), Mbemba had a 4.7 rating as the DCC (I use BPD roles for the outside DCs), and Baines and Mirallas started the game, as did Cook (Besic was out for yellow cards). The big issues were on Mirallas' side, that was the side Mbemba kept trying to cover for and pulling himself out of position.

The 4-2-3-1 Wide formations with 3 AMs seem to be giving me the most trouble right now. It's only really an issue when they get the ball down the wing into the final third, in transition we play ok. But once they are down in the final third, it just seems really easy to break me down with the ball coming in from either wing.

Thanks again for the help!

[Joey Numbaz]

Also in the Newcastle game, a 4-2 loss, Baines and Coleman played, with Cook in the middle as the DLPD. They all had decent ratings for the game, the back three of Stones and Funes Mori wide and Galloway in the center were 6.5, 6.6 and 6.4 rated. But we gave up two goal after subbing Funes Mori in the 76th minute with Linus Wahlqvist, a DC with 14 pace and marking, 13 positioning, tackling and work rate. Another kid that I'm trying to build up experience for, and Funes Mori was pretty gassed late, so I was trying to preserve the 2-2 draw. Whoops.

Edited October 24, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[Anaconda Vice]

Ok. Baines and Coleman should do you well for now. Good work rates there. How are they for goals and assists?

You really need to teach stays back at all times to the main player who will be occupying the DLP spot (seems to be Besic). That should make you more solid for sure. Im going to take a look further at this tomorrow as I will be going offline now. 

Remember also pace is key in the defence and also you need a Left Footed CB and LCB and a Right Footed CB at RCB.

If Coleman isn't cutting it for you at RM, buy Jonathan Walters for now. He is ace as he has 20 work rate. He got me 20 goals and 15 assists in one season from RM.

Good luck and I will be back tomorrow.

[Joey Numbaz]

Thanks!

I feel like it has stabilized some. Coleman and Baines have been great! I don't think they are the problem. They are both scoring and assisting a lot and are almost always amongst my top rated players. Lukaku and Barkely are also great as the CF/AM duo, although I think maybe Lukaku isn't being utlilized to his full potential. I've taught him plays with back to goal.

Coleman has 5 goals and 5 assists in 18 starts (4 times he subbed). Baines has 6 goals and 9 assists in 22 (3 subs) games.

Goals per 90 minutes: Niassé .88 (he doesn't play a ton, 5 goals in 511 minutes), Lukaku .57, Barkley .45, Schaub .35 (6 starts, 13 subs), Coleman .27, Baines .27, Cleverley (MCL, the gets forward one) .14, Cook .13

Assists per 90 minutes: Baines .41, Barkley .36, Cleverley .32, Mirallas .30, Coleman .27, Schaub .23, Lukaku .16, Cook .06.

Baines and Coleman are two of my 3 best players by rating too, 7.80 and 7.59. Barkley is at 7.77, Cleverley 7.52. I mean I guess Baines and Coleman could be slacking on defense. It's hard to tell just from watching. Coleman has 34 mistakes in 1642, none have led to goals. Baines has made 31 mistakes in 2075 minutes, none have led to goals either.

Here's something, I am playing City, who is a great team playing a 4-1-4-1 with a DM against me. We tied them 0-0 early in the year, played them tough January 2 but lost 1-0.

Now it's January 28 and we drew them at home in the FA Cup. We scored early and were up 1-0, but I noticed my players just weren't fast enough to get to the passes, a City guy would beat us to the ball, because they are great and fast. so I turned off pass into space, turned on retain possession, and it seemed to work a little better. But I had 12 shots and only 2 on target by early in the second half.

So then I switched to Counter, more direct passing, higher tempo. I think this gave me the space I needed (thanks for drilling in this concept Cleon!). We ended up outshooting them 19-8, 5 on target to 4, we each had 1 clear cut chance, but I had 5 half chances to their 2. We ended up with 59% possession and won 2-1. Lukaku scored the winner with a great shot from top of the box.

So maybe I've stabilized it. Perhaps the falling apart in December was just because we were exhausted from the Champions League and fixture congestion around Boxing Day and New Year's - Baines and Coleman were sitting out too much? We've won 5 in a row now, outscoring out opponents 13-3. But the other games were against West Brom, Cardiff, Villa and West Ham, so I wasn't all that convinced. Beating City in the FA Cup 2-1, that was huge.

We'll see how it goes. QPR on the short turnaround in 3 days, and then a huge game with Arsenal in a week. I guess I'll know a lot more about the team then.

I'll add, looking back through, every single loss, except for the 5-3 Tottenham loss has come when we had less than a full week's rest. And Coleman was injured, Besic also missed the game for picking up his 5th yellow. Mirallas and Cook played and we gave up more goals than we have all year.

I wish I could sell Mirallas, he's worth $34.5mm, and makes $5.45mm a year, but no one wants him. He just doesn't really fit here.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

Wow! So I found the stat team goals allowed per 90 minutes and team goals conceded per 90 minutes. By far, not even close, the best player on the team with any reasonable amount of playing time is Besic. We only concede .70 goals per 90 minutes with him on the field, and that's over 14 starts and 10 sub appearances. With Cook on the field it's double, 1.42. With Coleman and Baines on the field we score 2.03 and 1.95, respectively, allowing .99 and 1.09. But with Schaub and Pulisic on the field it's .81 scored and 1.85 allowed, and 1.12 - 1.64, we are getting killed. Interesting.

 

[axehan1]

Are you guys playing 16 or 17?

I used this tactic in 16 and now using it again in 17 with good results with a slight adjustment in that it's now a 31411 with a DM(D) instead of the CM(DLP), I felt like there was too much space between the defence and midfield.I've also adjusted the wingers to wide midfielders as they can be fine tuned better than the wingers.

I have 3 pacey defenders to cover the fact that we play with a high line(workrate,determination and positioning too).

Like you guys i'm seeing an overload of attackers arriving in the box when the opposition has the ball down the flanks do you guys think this is normal or a little "buggy"? I'm wondering if it's worth bringing up in the bug forum?

[Joey Numbaz]

I am playing FM16 axehan1.

[Joey Numbaz]

Well, we are hanging in there. We beat QPR in a bit of a scary game, 2-1. They played a narrow 4-3-3. So we weren't exposed to the wing play that's become a problem. They scored a goal when the defense in the middle broke down. But Chancel Mbemba is out injured, Funes Mori is recovering from injury, so I'm playing Linus Walhqvist, another youngster back there a lot, with Funes Mori subbing late.

Then the big game at home with Arsenal. A great team playing the dreaded 4-1-2-3 Wide with a DM. We scored 3 minutes into the game, but then gave up a goal 3 minutes later. It was not from the wing. Player was tackled at the top left of the box and charging striker picked up the loose ball and punched it with 4 of my guys in the box not in the way of the ball. Barkley had to leave the game a little later with a dead leg, so Pulisic came on, but having him in there as a AM doesn't expose the defense like when I have to put him on the wing.

I went back to the counter, hi-tempo, direct at that point, and it seemed to work. We ended up getting a freak goal mid-way through the second half, kind of similar, Arsenal defended went for the tackle, kicked the ball into his own post and Lukaku was there to fire the rebound home.

We probably deserved a draw, outshot them 14-11, 8 on target to 5, we each had 3 clear cut chances and we had 3 half chances to their 2. We held possession well too, won that 55-45.

I guess the key is making sure that Besic, Baines and Coleman play as much as possible. Pulisic is tutoring with McCarthy now, so hopefully that helps out his work rate. Will that develop? He's only 18 years old, as is Schaub so if that 13 can become a 16 or 17 I'll be happy. If not, I'll have to find another young winger or two. Baines and Coleman still have a few years left.

Another huge thing I've noticed. I signed Gerónimo Rulli to be my goalie, because it was by far Everton's most glaring weakness. He has been nothing short of brilliant. The key being his 19 One-On-Ones rating. I think this is a must in this system, because with the high line, no matter how good the back three, good teams will break free from time to time. He is just brilliant on these.

Edited October 25, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[Joey Numbaz]

Well, I guess we are going to find out how important Baines really is. He's out for 7-8 months with damaged cruciate ligaments in the 2nd leg of a Europa League first knockout round tie with Club Brugge. We won the first on the road 2-1 and dominated the second 2-0 (outshot them 23-3). Ugh. See him next September/October (EDIT - now he's considering retiring, ugh). He became my captain too after we sold off Jagielka. Damnit.

Welcome to the big-time Christian Pulisic.

EDIT: Scratch that. I think I'm going to take the competent Lewis Cook and train him up as the left wing. His work rate, positioning, determination and anticipation are all better. As are his pace and stamina. Pulisic isn't quite ready yet.

Edited October 26, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hey everyone, apologies for the radio silence. Been rather remote in South America and lacking internet connection / spare time.

I've fired up a save with Ajax and I have to say that I'm impressed with the new version.

I've made a couple of tweaks to the system which are working well:

• Mentality is now Control. In a Very Fluid shape, a mentality change is significant. We play faster, slightly more aggressive yet still possession based football.
• Striker is now a False 9 (Support) role - I find the False 9 gets greater involvement in the game than other striker roles, monitoring the number of touches it's roughly +50%.
• My two MC(S) now Move into Channels and Get Forward More. Move into Channels allows them to 'play around' other 3-man midfields. Get forward more is just aimed at getting more runners from deep and a fluid attack.
• TI - Play through the middle. My wingers stretch the field and create more space for the midfield diamond to exploit.

Initial observations:

• Decision making has been significantly improved - I'm seeing a significant improvement in the hold-up play from the AM(A) combining with the movement from the False 9, wingers and the on rushing MC(S)s.
• 3-man defence is struggling more against the 3-man attack variants: 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 in particular. I'm using a 4-1-4-1 as an alternative shape. I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.
• Dolberg is fantastic in the False 9 role - difficult to tell if its the role, or the player or both.
• The wingers are possibly not contributing as well defensively but I'm not sure.

Results, so far so good. Qualified for the Champions League group stage, got a tough group but looking like qualifying or the knock outs. Unbeaten after 10 league games with 9 wins and a draw. Dolberg is leading the goalscoring but I'm getting goals from all over. Averaging 60-65% possession and very free-scoring. My youngsters bashed 9 past a lower league side in the cup.

More to follow.

[Ivan787]

10 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hey everyone, apologies for the radio silence. Been rather remote in South America and lacking internet connection / spare time.

I've fired up a save with Ajax and I have to say that I'm impressed with the new version.

I've made a couple of tweaks to the system which are working well:

• Mentality is now Control. In a Very Fluid shape, a mentality change is significant. We play faster, slightly more aggressive yet still possession based football.
• Striker is now a False 9 (Support) role - I find the False 9 gets greater involvement in the game than other striker roles, monitoring the number of touches it's roughly +50%.
• My two MC(S) now Move into Channels and Get Forward More. Move into Channels allows them to 'play around' other 3-man midfields. Get forward more is just aimed at getting more runners from deep and a fluid attack.
• TI - Play through the middle. My wingers stretch the field and create more space for the midfield diamond to exploit.

Initial observations:

• Decision making has been significantly improved - I'm seeing a significant improvement in the hold-up play from the AM(A) combining with the movement from the False 9, wingers and the on rushing MC(S)s.
• 3-man defence is struggling more against the 3-man attack variants: 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 in particular. I'm using a 4-1-4-1 as an alternative shape. I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.
• Dolberg is fantastic in the False 9 role - difficult to tell if its the role, or the player or both.
• The wingers are possibly not contributing as well defensively but I'm not sure.

Results, so far so good. Qualified for the Champions League group stage, got a tough group but looking like qualifying or the knock outs. Unbeaten after 10 league games with 9 wins and a draw. Dolberg is leading the goalscoring but I'm getting goals from all over. Averaging 60-65% possession and very free-scoring. My youngsters bashed 9 past a lower league side in the cup.

More to follow.

Hi,

this is interesting. I started to play your system with the Beta FM17 so I'didnìt have a real comparison between this FM and the previous one.

What I have to say is that I found a lot of difficult in let my MC make forward run. I don't know if the PPM "dictates tempo" can influence the forward runs.

In your opinion, the tweaks you have done, was necessary because the change of ME between FM16 and FM17? 

It could be very interesting to try to use this approach with a 4-3-3, like De Boer's Ajax, paying much attention in the lateral side, the movemente of wingers (or IF?) and the wingback (o fullback?).

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

5 minutes ago, Ivan787 said:

Hi,

this is interesting. I started to play your system with the Beta FM17 so I'didnìt have a real comparison between this FM and the previous one.

What I have to say is that I found a lot of difficult in let my MC make forward run. I don't know if the PPM "dictates tempo" can influence the forward runs.

In your opinion, the tweaks you have done, was necessary because the change of ME between FM16 and FM17? 

It could be very interesting to try to use this approach with a 4-3-3, like De Boer's Ajax, paying much attention in the lateral side, the movemente of wingers (or IF?) and the wingback (o fullback?).

More of a natural evolution than related to the switch FM 2016 to FM 2017. For me, people overrate the change from one game to another.

Yea, I agree. Based on my initial observations you'll need to be flexible with a 3-man or 4-man defence so a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 variant would be useful.

[Ivan787]

1 minute ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

More of a natural evolution than related to the switch FM 2016 to FM 2017. For me, people overrate the change from one game to another.

Yea, I agree. Based on my initial observations you'll need to be flexible with a 3-man or 4-man defence so a 4-3-3 or 4-5-1 variant would be useful.

Just a last question.

I'm italian, and I'm a fan of Internazionale F.C., a team with very few players able to play this system because we are full of midfielders and forwards with low work rate and low teamwork. So it is very important to use 1-2 years to replace the "bad" players and buy the new ones.

In your opinion what are the main attributes you look for if you need to buy wingers and midfielders for your project? I know the importance of intelligent player and hard-worker but what else?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I always train my wingers as Defensive Wingers so use that attribute set as a guideline. They're the only player on the flank and it's extremely important that they both defend well and provide width.

I just signed Augustinson from Copenhagen and am very happy with him.

Attacking fullbacks are good but they need to offer an attacking threat. When I have to play Tete out there, I lack width.

[Joey Numbaz]

Quote

I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.

What is broken about it? Why doesn't it work?

[Joey Numbaz]

Quote

3-man defence is struggling more against the 3-man attack variants: 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 in particular. I'm using a 4-1-4-1 as an alternative shape. I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.

So there really is no salvaging it against the 4-2-3-1? This is the formation that caused me the most trouble too, especially when a good team is running it. So if the opponent lines up that way just switch to something else? Understandable, but I was hoping to be able to figure something out. I really like the way this plays otherwise.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

27 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

What is broken about it? Why doesn't it work?

 

23 minutes ago, Joey Numbaz said:

So there really is no salvaging it against the 4-2-3-1? This is the formation that caused me the most trouble too, especially when a good team is running it. So if the opponent lines up that way just switch to something else? Understandable, but I was hoping to be able to figure something out. I really like the way this plays otherwise.

I need to think about it and experiment a little bit more.

I'd certainly use the same style of play but possibly switch to a 4-man defence. Early days. Not 100% sure.

[Joey Numbaz]

29 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 

I need to think about it and experiment a little bit more.

I'd certainly use the same style of play but possibly switch to a 4-man defence. Early days. Not 100% sure.

Thanks!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Hello, old friend..

We're really starting to click into gear now. Just put 4 past Atletico - the toughest defence in Europe.

I'm really enjoying the way we're playing. The new heat map feature helps show how your team is connecting:

As you can see, we're building up from the back but not wasting any time. Look at that diamond in the centre. Dominant. The striker's well involved and we've got great width.

[James9]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hello, old friend..

We're really starting to click into gear now. Just put 4 past Atletico - the toughest defence in Europe.

I'm really enjoying the way we're playing. The new heat map feature helps show how your team is connecting:

As you can see, we're building up from the back but not wasting any time. Look at that diamond in the centre. Dominant. The striker's well involved and we've got great width.

Ozil are you back playing the 343 diamond. I have just got a chance to look at FM17 properly. What do you think about this current Arsenal side on FM17 and their ability to play the 343 diamond. We have Mustafi now which seems to be a good defender and Xhaka. What do you think about Xhaka in the DLP Defend role. Would Bellerin make a good Winger with the right training. Also would you put the wingers on Defensive Winger training to get them better rounded. 

 

Also is there any formations that you struggle with when playing the 343 diamond. I heard a lot of people on the durum mentioning formations that use players in the AMR/AML being very difficult to cope with. Do you have any advice on how to handle these types of formations. 

[wwxxyyzz]

20 hours ago, James9 said:

Ozil are you back playing the 343 diamond. I have just got a chance to look at FM17 properly. What do you think about this current Arsenal side on FM17 and their ability to play the 343 diamond. We have Mustafi now which seems to be a good defender and Xhaka. What do you think about Xhaka in the DLP Defend role. Would Bellerin make a good Winger with the right training. Also would you put the wingers on Defensive Winger training to get them better rounded. 

 

Also is there any formations that you struggle with when playing the 343 diamond. I heard a lot of people on the durum mentioning formations that use players in the AMR/AML being very difficult to cope with. Do you have any advice on how to handle these types of formations. 

I reckon that Xhaka won't be good enough at the 'defend' part of the DLP(d) role. Don't have FM open but I think his positioning stat is only 11 or 12

 

I suspect Bellerin would be fantastic

[ronaldo1026]

On 10/26/2016 at 12:14, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This is beautiful. Passing Networks is probably my favorite addition to the new version. Can't wait to start my official save Nov 4.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Same here - "picture says a thousand words".

It's very useful when you're underperforming. For example, you're not creating chances there's likely to be a missing link on the build up or if the opposition is killing you look at theirs and stick a spanner in the works.

Just used this to overcome a huge struggle against Leverkusen's aggressive pressing. They were cutting the links between my defence and midfield so I pulled my wingers back to fullbacks and put Ziyech into the ML wide playmaker slot, roaming from position and we started to play around the press, leaving them exposed at the back - ended winning 3-0.

[Fred2woh]

On 10/26/2016 at 21:14, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hello, old friend..

You can have this map when you are playing the game? I can see the one from the report, but I can't see it during the game.

But yeah, that's a really great addition.

[Ronaldo Beckham]

Sorry for sounding stupid but is this tactic available to download or have we got to do it all manually ?

[JNOUnited]

I've found that the same instructions and playing style in a 433 work okay for me against formations with three strikers. I cannot get the 4411 to work how I want it to though.

[Joey Numbaz]

A little background before I get into the big question, as I've turned out a defensive variant of this that seems promising against the 4-2-3-1 Wide.

So it's getting late in the year, and a deep run in the FA Cup (lost in the semi) and the Europa League (just qualified for the Final) along with a bunch of injuries, have us wearing down like we did in December. We had an incredible run from January though, we went 15-0-2 (2 draws) over a 17 game stretch from January 7 through April 20. We did not give up a goal in 6 consecutive Europa League games.

Of course, it's a top heavy EPL, a 5-team race for four spots. And Arsenal and Tottenham, 3-4 were also refusing to lose. Last year, I finished second with 77 points to Tottenham's 78 to win the league. This year, with 2 matches to go, it's 80-80-77-73-70, of course, we have the 70.

Anyway, everyone has decided to play a 4-2-3-1 Wide against me now. Wolfsburg played a 4-4-2 in the first leg 1-0 loss in the Europa league semis, but for the second leg, even they showed up with a 4-2-3-1 Wide. Leicester used the same formation to beat me 1-0 in the FA Cup semi. Manchester United hammered me 4-0 in a league game that might cost me playing the Champions League for 2017-18.

We scored in the second minute of the second leg away match, so I relaxed. But 10 minutes in, Wolfsburg already had 3 clear cut chances, and I said enough.

I switched the mentality to defensive. Turned off pass into space and turned on retain possession. This helped stabilize things. But then early in the second half, they scored on a corner. After subbing Lukaku and Stones out at halftime (fixture congestion sucks) and like 5 minutes in they went from having 2 corners in the game to 9. So I took it one step further.

I dropped the DLP(d) back to DM, same role and duty. Took Barkley from AM(a) back to MC, with Roaming Playmaker Support duty.

From there we hammered them. Niassé scored in the 65th minute and Cleverley tapped one home in the 76th.

My question is this ... does this make sense theoretically? Did I get lucky, or can this work long-term as an alternative to the 4-2-3-1 Wide problem? This is important as ... we are going to be playing Manchester United again - in the Europa League Final, with the prize being Champions League play for 2017-18.

Edited October 30, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[ronaldo1026]

4 hours ago, JNOUnited said:

I've found that the same instructions and playing style in a 433 work okay for me against formations with three strikers. I cannot get the 4411 to work how I want it to though.

There's no download link for this, but if you read Özil's opening posts, it has everything you need...

[Joey Numbaz]

Another sign of the strength of this tactic, my youth teams.

Without any in game adjustments, though I made a lot of youth signings, we had a phenomenal year. I did try to put the best lineups out there, but that was all of my involvement.

U21s

Won the U21 Cup. Outscored opponents 19-2 in 5 games, including an 8-0 quarterfinal win over Leeds

Tied for 2nd with United in the North division, 13-5 with 4 draws, 43 goals, 28 allowed. Most goals, 3rd fewest allowed.

U18s

City was the cream of the crop here with 56 points, but we finished 3rd, in the North, a point behind United. 11-4, 7 draws. 38 goals (2nd most) 23 allowed (3rd best).

Lost to City 2-0 in the U18s Cup, bad draw.

Finished second in the Group A competition (the top 4 in each of the 12 team north and south groups). 4-1 with 2 draws, finished 2 points behind City (5-1, 1 draw). Scored the most goals (15) and allowed the least (5).

Finally, we won the U19 Champions Cup! This was a combination of both teams since the age requirements were different.

4-0, 2 draws in the group stage 10 for, 5 against.

Then we beat Shakhtar 3-1, Leverkusen 5-2 to get to the semi. These are single leg ties, not two leg.

I switched the tactic to an experimental one for the semis - I dropped the two wingers back to Wing Backs with Complete Wing Back attack. We hadn't practiced it all year. I am thinking of using this in the Europa League Final against Manchester United.

We beat Club Brugge 4-0, outshot them 23-3, 10-0 on target and 51% possession. The WBL scored 2 of the goals. Brugge played a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide.

In the Finals we beat Real Madrid 2-0, outshot them 15-4, 7-2 on target, 52% possession. Madrid played a flat 4-4-2.

For the last game of the season, since we are now locked into 5th, I plan to try this with the Wing Backs against Newcastle to see how it goes. I will be playing a super weak lineup, since the Europa League Final is just 3 days later.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[JNOUnited]

13 hours ago, ronaldo1026 said:

There's no download link for this, but if you read Özil's opening posts, it has everything you need...

I'm aware that he hasn't released a download. I've got about five formations with this style. Just saying which has worked and which hasn't. 

[JNOUnited]

17 hours ago, Joey Numbaz said:

A little background before I get into the big question, as I've turned out a defensive variant of this that seems promising against the 4-2-3-1 Wide.

So it's getting late in the year, and a deep run in the FA Cup (lost in the semi) and the Europa League (just qualified for the Final) along with a bunch of injuries, have us wearing down like we did in December. We had an incredible run from January though, we went 15-0-2 (2 draws) over a 17 game stretch from January 7 through April 20. We did not give up a goal in 6 consecutive Europa League games.

Of course, it's a top heavy EPL, a 5-team race for four spots. And Arsenal and Tottenham, 3-4 were also refusing to lose. Last year, I finished second with 77 points to Tottenham's 78 to win the league. This year, with 2 matches to go, it's 80-80-77-73-70, of course, we have the 70.

Anyway, everyone has decided to play a 4-2-3-1 Wide against me now. Wolfsburg played a 4-4-2 in the first leg 1-0 loss in the Europa league semis, but for the second leg, even they showed up with a 4-2-3-1 Wide. Leicester used the same formation to beat me 1-0 in the FA Cup semi. Manchester United hammered me 4-0 in a league game that might cost me playing the Champions League for 2017-18.

We scored in the second minute of the second leg away match, so I relaxed. But 10 minutes in, Wolfsburg already had 3 clear cut chances, and I said enough.

I switched the mentality to defensive. Turned off pass into space and turned on retain possession. This helped stabilize things. But then early in the second half, they scored on a corner. After subbing Lukaku and Stones out at halftime (fixture congestion sucks) and like 5 minutes in they went from having 2 corners in the game to 9. So I took it one step further.

I dropped the DLP(d) back to DM, same role and duty. Took Barkley from AM(a) back to MC, with Roaming Playmaker Support duty.

From there we hammered them. Niassé scored in the 65th minute and Cleverley tapped one home in the 76th.

My question is this ... does this make sense theoretically? Did I get lucky, or can this work long-term as an alternative to the 4-2-3-1 Wide problem? This is important as ... we are going to be playing Manchester United again - in the Europa League Final, with the prize being Champions League play for 2017-18.

Thanks for this alternate version. I'll try it next time I'm struggling against a big team. Coming up against Arsenal that battered me twice at the beginning of the season so, I need revenge.

Thanks for the effort your putting into this.

[JNOUnited]

On 10/26/2016 at 14:15, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hey everyone, apologies for the radio silence. Been rather remote in South America and lacking internet connection / spare time.

I've fired up a save with Ajax and I have to say that I'm impressed with the new version.

I've made a couple of tweaks to the system which are working well:

• Mentality is now Control. In a Very Fluid shape, a mentality change is significant. We play faster, slightly more aggressive yet still possession based football.
• Striker is now a False 9 (Support) role - I find the False 9 gets greater involvement in the game than other striker roles, monitoring the number of touches it's roughly +50%.
• My two MC(S) now Move into Channels and Get Forward More. Move into Channels allows them to 'play around' other 3-man midfields. Get forward more is just aimed at getting more runners from deep and a fluid attack.
• TI - Play through the middle. My wingers stretch the field and create more space for the midfield diamond to exploit.

Initial observations:

• Decision making has been significantly improved - I'm seeing a significant improvement in the hold-up play from the AM(A) combining with the movement from the False 9, wingers and the on rushing MC(S)s.
• 3-man defence is struggling more against the 3-man attack variants: 4-3-3 / 4-5-1 and 4-2-3-1 in particular. I'm using a 4-1-4-1 as an alternative shape. I'd like to use 4-3-3, if the Half-Back role would work.
• Dolberg is fantastic in the False 9 role - difficult to tell if its the role, or the player or both.
• The wingers are possibly not contributing as well defensively but I'm not sure.

Results, so far so good. Qualified for the Champions League group stage, got a tough group but looking like qualifying or the knock outs. Unbeaten after 10 league games with 9 wins and a draw. Dolberg is leading the goalscoring but I'm getting goals from all over. Averaging 60-65% possession and very free-scoring. My youngsters bashed 9 past a lower league side in the cup.

More to follow.

I've tried your new settings and there are definitely improvements but there is one thing that didn't really work for my team. It could be I picked the wrong opponents to try Control against, I'm Manchester United and I was against West Ham who were in fourth. The Control Style just seemed to open. I was conceding as many chances as I was making. At 2-1 to myself but after about five highlights for West Ham, I changed to Standard and that killed their opportunities and I won 4-1. It could be because they were playing a 4-2-3-1 as well. So I'll try control in some more games but maybe after I've taken the lead in Standard. 

[Joey Numbaz]

When I first started playing fantasy baseball, the book I read talked about draft strategy. It said, no matter which strategy you go with, be prepared to ditch it an hour and a half into the draft when nothing goes like you thought it would.

So for the week and a half of prep for the Europa League Final against Manchester United, I was planning to go with the defensive variant of the 3-5-1-1 I mentioned above.

In the Newcastle finale, nothing really changed my mind. I played an awful variant of the variant in the first half, where I dropped the wingers back to CWBs. That just didn't work at all. Even with the scrub players I was playing, just watching I could tell it was awful. Newcastle outshot us 6-1 and we were lucky to only be down 1-0 at the half.

For the second half I went back to the defensive version with the true 3-5-1-1. We scored once, played much better and lost 2-1 on a late goal. Second half shots were 6-5 them.

So fully prepared to play this against United ... but then ... Martial (who was also a thorn in the side of Ozil to the Arsensal IIRC) was hurt and going to miss the final. Deulofeu, who we sold them before the season was starting on the front line, and he really didn't play that well during the year. All of the sudden, United didn't seem so imposing. Especially since they play a 4-1-2-3 DM Wide, not a 4-2-3-1 Wide. That formation has been a problem, but the issues there are more with breaking those teams down than getting burned by the fast front four.

So after all of that, I played the regular tactic in the biggest game of the season. Started Mbemba over Funes Mori as the DCc, started Cook on the LW in place of injured Baines, and of course Besic in the middle as the DLPd. I also noticed the ref for this match had given 28 yellows and 3 reds in 5 matches this year. Set Besic, who picked up 16(!) yellow cards in 3486 minutes (38.5 games) to ease off tackles.

I watched the entire match too, all 90 minutes. We were solidly in control from the beginning. Resting everyone helped, United's players were exhausted, mine were all in the mid-high 90% range. Occassionally United would make runs, but my back 3 were always one step ahead of them. On attack, we were controlling the play 55-60% possession. And they kept having to foul Coleman down the right, who has become a superstar. He was the Players Player of the Year in 2015-16, and this year he's been nearly as good.

Schweinsteiger, the DM, got a yellow card in the 7th minute. LaPorte, the DCL picked one up at 27'. Then we finally broke through! McCarthy scored off of a throw in of all things! Right near the corner spot, Galloway tossed in to Cook on the edge of the area, who passed in to McCarthy who headed it in! 

We went into half time up 1-0, only having allowed one off target non-chance shot! United picked up a 3rd yellow (Bernat) at 44'. We completely dominated the first half, even if our goal was a little lucky. We did have the only clear cut chance of the half too.

Still cruising in the 59th minute when disaster strikes! Seamus Coleman, all world RW, arguably the best player on a team with Lukaku and Barkley ... sprains his ankle. He's out. We are already weakened on the left wing defensively with the loss of Baines. Now our right wing goes down. Easily the worst injury we could have had, up 1-0 in a game that's worth dozens of millions of dollars considering it means Champions League for 2017-18.

So at this point, I have to go to the defensive tactic and cross the fingers. Kevin Mirallas comes on. What he lacks on defense, he can at least make up for by pushing the offense. Hopefully the tactic change covers for him. Mentality to D, Barkley from AMa to MCrpm and Besic from MCdlp to DMdlp, for those who may have forgot. I do take the MCR and MCL and give them push forward and move into channels (thanks Ozil) when playing this tactic. I also decided to drop Lukaku back to a False 9.

So as bad as this looks, we do still have the lead. 8 shots to 2 at this point, 57% possession, 82% pass completion. 1 clear cut chance and another half chance to no real chances. It's still our game to lose.

Then we get the massive break, remember our strict referee? He gives Bernat another yellow in the 62nd minute!! This luck was the residue of great play though. Coleman was dominating and the players getting the yellows were the DM, the DCL and DL. They needed to foul him to stop him. We continue to dominate, United get a few long balls, but if they couldn't break us down or get one past the back line with 11 players, they definitely can't with 10, playing a 4-1-2-1-1.

Mbebma gets a yellow at 76', so I tell him to calm down. Then another huge break. United had used all three subs and in the 83' Andriy Yarmolenko goes down with a sprained ankle of his own. You never want to see anyone get hurt ... but if it had to happen, this was as good a time as any :-)

At 84' I bring on Funes Mori as the DCLbpd with Galloway moving to the DCc. Pulisic comes in for Cook, mainly for fresh legs. Cook is the better defender, but not so much so that he's better tired vs. rested Pulisic. Especially playing 11 vs. 9.

Other than a corner, there weren't any more scares. We closed it out, winning 1-0. I would have liked to have played more aggressive, but I figure why bother. I'd still have extra time up a man if they snuck a goal in. We had about 67% possession after Bernat was ejected.

The first heat map covers the time up until when Coleman was hurt. Playing the normal standard mentality 3-5-1-1. The second heat map is from when Coleman went down to when Yarmolenko got hurt, mostly playing up a man with the defensive tactic. Someone smarter than me might pick up on something there.

Time to win the EPL in 2017-18!

Edited October 31, 2016 by Joey Numbaz

[Fox]

I have found that I am losing so many goals from crosses to the back post using this formation, my Cbs never pick up players arriving late into the box on the far post. Is this common with 3 at the back?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 minutes ago, Fox said:

I have found that I am losing so many goals from crosses to the back post using this formation, my Cbs never pick up players arriving late into the box on the far post. Is this common with 3 at the back?

It does seem to be slightly more of a problem this year. I've adapted by moving to a 4-1-4-1 variant for the bigger games where the opposition is playing a front 3. In the 3-4-3 my wingers aren't dropping back as deep as they were last season.

Overall, it's worked extremely well. We have just won the Champions League against Real Madrid.

[Fox]

So you are using the same ti's but just changed your shape? To adapt to the problem.

do you mind putting up a pic of that formation please.

[edtheguy]

It is working very well in this year's version for me. I had been struggling mid table with my club - in the Norwegian second division - for a couple seasons, and looking at the squad I had decided to go with three at the back.  So I gave this thread a re-read and modified some of the roles and PI's to fit my squad....  and it was like flipping a switch.  Instead of having to play defensive or risk getting cut open we now control play in nearly every game and generate so many more scoring chances than the opposition that even when playing bigger clubs the lack of quality in the squad becomes moot.  

I haven't had problems with crosses yet, I don't know if that is because I've got the wingers set to close down more and mark tightly, but whatever the reason so far so good.

[Fox]

22 minutes ago, edtheguy said:

It is working very well in this year's version for me. I had been struggling mid table with my club - in the Norwegian second division - for a couple seasons, and looking at the squad I had decided to go with three at the back.  So I gave this thread a re-read and modified some of the roles and PI's to fit my squad....  and it was like flipping a switch.  Instead of having to play defensive or risk getting cut open we now control play in nearly every game and generate so many more scoring chances than the opposition that even when playing bigger clubs the lack of quality in the squad becomes moot.  

I haven't had problems with crosses yet, I don't know if that is because I've got the wingers set to close down more and mark tightly, but whatever the reason so far so good.

I tried that with my wingers and have seen better results too, I also put the outside defenders on much higher closing down on hard tackling. 

It has been better overall, my players don't have the quality that ozil's does to truly replicate this system but the football has been great...

[edtheguy]

2 hours ago, Fox said:

 my players don't have the quality that ozil's does to truly replicate this system but the football has been great...

Exactly that, I'm happy if my players have an 8 in the important attributes - but since training this tactic the football looks wonderful.

[Fox]

I just can't get the defence solid! I constantly concede goals from wingers crossing to the far post to tap in.

going to give up on this now and try another set up for the new season. Nice to watch when attacking though...

[nick1408]

4 hours ago, Fox said:

I just can't get the defence solid! I constantly concede goals from wingers crossing to the far post to tap in.

going to give up on this now and try another set up for the new season. Nice to watch when attacking though...

Tried a few three man defenses and consistently have the same issue. No idea how to fix it

[Omaxo]

Hey, im willing to test this philosofy with my homeland team, Las Palmas, our team is mainly formed by canarian players, they are known to play half of cruyff philosophy, i say half because the defensive system they really don't succed in it, mainly because they don't defend as a whole block most of the times. valeron-david silva and many others are well knowned, in the past we actually did quite well with our fragile economy, and more recently, won promotion in 14/15 with mainly 9 players from the same island, 1 argentian striker and the goalkeeper that was spanish from another part.

i've got some question,

1) whats the main attribute that makes you decide who put central in the defence? also you're still using a cover duty for him?

Another point, you've talk about the importance of pressure, the importance of the opponent defence being under pressure for making them do bad deccissions and passes for our team be in good conditions to regain posession quicker, my point is,

2) it could be benefficial to use OI's? or is, just enought with close down much more as a whole TEam Instruction? i think PI have more impact than TI, but does TI have more than OI? maybe putting close down more, mark tighter, hard taclking and show weak foot to the defence, GK and DM if they have could be a good idea ? in my mind make sense but don't know if it actually will have an important impact as we've got TI.

3) in FM16 you didn't really know well if the offside trap had a importan impact for defending, have you got to a conclusion in this FM?

4) for the 4-1-4-1 you keep the same role? DLP-D?

 

Sorry for all question, but actually i love this thread and how you and the people involved in the thread have explained in Fm and real life terms one of the footballers and coches i admire most, his philosophys of football just made football much more interesting, even if you dont like his style is awesome to see 2 differents styles playing in a match, or even this style of football played by 2 teams. What and excellent job you've done, actually you've gave me a reason for doing a really long term save, usually only play 3-4 seasons max.

Thanks in advance, and keep on with the brilliant work!

[MorganGalahad]

On 16/10/2016 at 22:22, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, I'm hoping the la salida lavolpiana mechanism works with a half-back in a back 4 (rather than wingbacks), in which case I'll work on a high-tempo possession 4-3-3.

 

And, of course, a 3-4-3

Would love to see your team instructions in achieving this. Maybe a thread?

[Anaconda Vice]

On 11/1/2016 at 14:04, Fox said:

So you are using the same ti's but just changed your shape? To adapt to the problem.

do you mind putting up a pic of that formation please.

He will get round to it I am sure.

Hope he does Conte next 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I apologise for the radio silence. Fairly disruptive couple of weeks working in Chile.

There is a post planned on the 4-1-4-1 - it's a wonderfully flexible system, where you can make a lot of changes in order to highlight particular opposition weaknesses but as a result it's more difficult to write about than the 3-4-3, where I don't change too much.

If anyone wants to try try themselves - it's a flat 4-1-4-1 in the same style as the 3-4-3, Control and Very Fluid. Still use standard in the bigger games where a medium-block is safer than high.

It's a great pressing shape, so Tis are the same - all the closing down, defensive line and passing through the centre.

The beauty is the flexibility of the fullbacks, wide midfielders and two MCs.

My base system is FB(S)s, W(A)s and an MC(A) and an MC(S) in midfield, both getting forward more. The midfield 4 is aggressive, but balanced by the '4-1' defence. Inspired by Klopp's Liverpool. Seems particularly effective against the 4-1-2-2-1 variant of the 4-3-3.

Against the 4-2-3-1 my DMC becomes a standard DM(D) to nullify the opposition AM. Either of my wingers becomes as Wide Playmaker with a free role, sitting in the gaping hole left by the opposition midfield and I balance this by switching the corresponding fullback to attacking. This is already balanced by the more conservative DM covering. Rest of midfield remains the same. I'll also tweak instructions to make play from defence more direct, the objective being to bypass the opposition AMs and FC, leaving the defence isolated and the midfield easily outnumbered.

Sorry this is rushed. Not sure it's clear. May throw up more questions than it answers!!

 

[Bigpapa42]

Very much looking forward to seeing what your thoughts are on the 4-1-4-1, Ozil. I've been using it since FM16 and definitely enjoy its flexibility. I mentioned this in the Milan thread, but I adapted those ideas of yours into the 4-1-4-1 formation and it worked quite well. Haven't got a real first save going yet on FM17 but the intent to use that along with a more structured counter 4-1-4-1.

[alinp]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

My base system is FB(S)s, W(A)s and an MC(A) and an MC(S) in midfield, both getting forward more. The midfield 4 is aggressive, but balanced by the '4-1' defence. Inspired by Klopp's Liverpool. Seems particularly effective against the 4-1-2-2-1 variant of the 4-3-3.

Like this...?

 

[alinp]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Against the 4-2-3-1 my DMC becomes a standard DM(D) to nullify the opposition AM. Either of my wingers becomes as Wide Playmaker with a free role, sitting in the gaping hole left by the opposition midfield and I balance this by switching the corresponding fullback to attacking. This is already balanced by the more conservative DM covering. Rest of midfield remains the same. I'll also tweak instructions to make play from defence more direct, the objective being to bypass the opposition AMs and FC, leaving the defence isolated and the midfield easily outnumbered.

and this...?

 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

16 hours ago, alinp said:

Like this...?

Spot on. Can't see if you've already done it but the Player Instruction, "Get Forward More" works wonders getting your central midfielders to attack through the centre and you've got reasonable cover from the DM and conservative fullbacks.

Good luck with that and I'll be interested to hear how you go. The second version is not at all far from my interpretation of Klopp's current Liverpool side and you'll probably find yourself using that the most as you'll come up against so many 4-2-3-1s.

P.s. what are you doing without Milner at fullback?? 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 5 November 2016 at 20:06, Anaconda Vice said:

Hope he does Conte next 

Bit of a curveball - sorry to disappoint!