Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2 (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Good luck, @alinp. Unfortunately, I don't know too much about this era of Liverpool apart from that it was a great side, so I won't be too much help.

[alinp]

16 hours ago, alinp said:

So... was thinking of using this as a basis for a tactic based loosely around Paisley's late 70's/early 80's LFC.  My initial thoughts for roles/duties would be...

1. Clemence - SK(S) - the original sweeper keeper
2. Neal - FB(A)
3. Kennedy A - WB(S)
4. Thompson - CD(D)
5. Kennedy R - WM(A)
6. Hansen - CD(D)
7. Dalglish - either CF(S) at Striker or T(A)/SS(A) at AM
8. Case - WM(S)
9. Rush - AF(A)
10. McDermott - CM(A)
11. Souness - DLP(S)

I know it seems to lack Defensive roles, but given it will be playing a very high line, I'd expect the defence to be close to the CM's most of the time, especially with whoever plays the Souness role holding the middle of the pitch.

Anyone who's old (like me) and has memory of this time, please feel free to help.  And any not old, can help too - I like to be inclusive

Will keep you posted.

I've been playing around with this a little bit (mainly in FMT so we don't have to wait for full tactical familiarity).  After a bit of trial and error, I've made the following changes...

• The CM pair is now DLP(D) with Tackle Harder (and Close Down Much Less, as per the OP) - the Souness role - and CM(S) with Move into Channels - the McDermott role.  My initial thoughts were far too open and this looks and feels better.
• The Dalglish role is now an F9.
• Both full backs have Stay Wider PI added.

TI wise, I have Higher d-line, Offside Trap, Close Down Much More, Tighter Marking, Play out of Defence, Work Ball into Box, Low Crosses & Dribble Less.  I've considered Roaming, but tbh the fluidity of the tactic seems to generate good movement anyway.

Will keep testing...

[iamneallyons]

On 24/05/2016 at 20:58, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Squad building is huge. Most of the time I manage bigger clubs but even then I will need to make 5-6 changes to the starting line up. In these circumstances I allow 3 years to reach top performance.

Using Milan as an example, I started with Donarumma, De Sciglio, Romagnoli, Mauri and Locatelli and brought in Jorge, Rugani, Ruben Neves, Guedes, Bernardo Silva and Berardi.

My transfer strategy is always aggressive and early in the game. I brought Rugani in the first transfer window and spent most of my budget. In the second summer, I cleared a lot of dead wood and brought in Jorge, Ruben Neves, Bernardo Silva and Berardi once again spending my entire budget. I then give this team a season to get used to playing together where we won the Scudetto before signing Guedes as the "cherry on the cake" giving us a very complete squad. Guedes was a like for like swap with Sansone so didn't require any tactical changes, he was simply an upgrade.

Mauri and Locatelli were both very young at the start so I get them tutored and give some game time during first season. Lots of game time in the second season. By the 3rd they're ready to kick on.

At Ajax - many of the players I used were at the club, but mainly in the academy so there was lots of this type of development.

In general, I monitor my player development by setting up a filter in the squad screen.

 

 

 

I use the same attributes in player searches, modified slightly for various positional requirements and build the squad from there. My general approach is to be aggressive early in the transfer window - use Bayern as an example, get your business done early/quickly and don't be afraid to splash the cash when you find the right person - and to give plenty of opportunity to youngsters.

If i took a weaker side, I'd start with a different tactic that is appropriate to their players and build towards the style I wish to play.

Again picking this up as per our discussion earlier, great stuff - i feel this is what is setting you apart right here - your squad development, this takes time - and investment and i am appreciating this massively as a backdrop to your tactics/philosophy.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

11 hours ago, iamneallyons said:

Again picking this up as per our discussion earlier, great stuff - i feel this is what is setting you apart right here - your squad development, this takes time - and investment and i am appreciating this massively as a backdrop to your tactics/philosophy.

You're spot on. It's often over-looked but it is easily the longest and most time consuming part of writing any of these threads.

[iamneallyons]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

You're spot on. It's often over-looked but it is easily the longest and most time consuming part of writing any of these threads.

Definitely, if anything it's a pragmatic approach to how you want your team to play.. Who do we see doing this at the moment? Pep guardiola at man city! Bringing in sane and Jesus has been no mistake, he's signed those players to go with sterling for their work rate off the ball and that is where aguero is going to suffer.

The custom overlay you have done is superb, straight away you can get a clear picture of who will fit your philosophy in the long term and who you can cash in to make improvements in the squad.

My Liverpool save is just a small test run really it's actually my first save in fm17 as I bought the game before Xmas and haven't had the motivation to start it but this is certainly wetting the appetite again now to get involved. I may even continue with the save I just usually do things a bit more extensively than I have done aka coaching signings and setting the club up how I want it from the get-go where as this time iv just concentrated on trying to train and get the total football philosophy drummed into the players in pre season via match training and friendlys.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

5 minutes ago, iamneallyons said:

Definitely, if anything it's a pragmatic approach to how you want your team to play.. Who do we see doing this at the moment? Pep guardiola at man city! Bringing in sane and Jesus has been no mistake, he's signed those players to go with sterling for their work rate off the ball and that is where aguero is going to suffer.

The custom overlay you have done is superb, straight away you can get a clear picture of who will fit your philosophy in the long term and who you can cash in to make improvements in the squad.

My Liverpool save is just a small test run really it's actually my first save in fm17 as I bought the game before Xmas and haven't had the motivation to start it but this is certainly wetting the appetite again now to get involved. I may even continue with the save I just usually do things a bit more extensively than I have done aka coaching signings and setting the club up how I want it from the get-go where as this time iv just concentrated on trying to train and get the total football philosophy drummed into the players in pre season via match training and friendlys.

Yep, in fact Liverpool's squad is going through this in real life.

You can see A -> B -> C from where the squad was when Klopp took over, where the squad is at the moment and - what we assume - is the direction he's going in.

The difference in Football Manager to real life is the extent of an overhaul we can perform quickly. Often we have pre-identified targets from successes in previous games and our livelihoods don't depend on the results so can be more aggressive and less pragmatic so the 'B' phase is shorter.

As I mentioned, I tend to go very aggressive in the first 2 seasons, then consolidate and I'm generally happy with my system by season 3-4. One of the reasons why I shy away from lower leagues is that it takes me 3-4 seasons with the likes of Arsenal, Ajax, Milan and hours of time, thought failed attempts, so you may never hear from me again if I start in Conference South!

[iamneallyons]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yep, in fact Liverpool's squad is going through this in real life.

You can see A -> B -> C from where the squad was when Klopp took over, where the squad is at the moment and - what we assume - is the direction he's going in.

The difference in Football Manager to real life is the extent of an overhaul we can perform quickly. Often we have pre-identified targets from successes in previous games and our livelihoods don't depend on the results so can be more aggressive and less pragmatic so the 'B' phase is shorter.

As I mentioned, I tend to go very aggressive in the first 2 seasons, then consolidate and I'm generally happy with my system by season 3-4. One of the reasons why I shy away from lower leagues is that it takes me 3-4 seasons with the likes of Arsenal, Ajax, Milan and hours of time, thought failed attempts, so you may never hear from me again if I start in Conference South!

Lower leagues are obviously a massive challenge - I think most of the lower league success comes in wheeling and dealing in the transfer market and falling a bit lucky here and there through signings and player form.

It's hard to get a lower league side be it league 1 or 2 to have so much freedom because at the end of the day they just aren't great footballers, you rarely see teams getting promoted playing flashy football it's always grinding results out and being very disciplined. Obviously it can be done if your budgets far out way most of your competitors!

[Azza2306]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yep, in fact Liverpool's squad is going through this in real life.

You can see A -> B -> C from where the squad was when Klopp took over, where the squad is at the moment and - what we assume - is the direction he's going in.

The difference in Football Manager to real life is the extent of an overhaul we can perform quickly. Often we have pre-identified targets from successes in previous games and our livelihoods don't depend on the results so can be more aggressive and less pragmatic so the 'B' phase is shorter.

As I mentioned, I tend to go very aggressive in the first 2 seasons, then consolidate and I'm generally happy with my system by season 3-4. One of the reasons why I shy away from lower leagues is that it takes me 3-4 seasons with the likes of Arsenal, Ajax, Milan and hours of time, thought failed attempts, so you may never hear from me again if I start in Conference South!

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! while you are building your squad I am assuming you are still running the tactic even though you may not have the players to suit in the beginning? I was using your 4-1-4-1 Modern style with my Middlesbrough team in the Championship and cleaned up but obviously once I made it to the Premiership my team struggled against bigger teams. My team have very low work rate which I am trying to improve but obviously financial restrictions mean it will take me a lot longer.

[alozz]

I am doing a similar thing on my current save, however i like to play both sides as wingers, so how can i form the diamond you form with the WM on the left. I tried inverted wing back but it didnt take. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 14 February 2017 at 18:59, Azza2306 said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! while you are building your squad I am assuming you are still running the tactic even though you may not have the players to suit in the beginning? I was using your 4-1-4-1 Modern style with my Middlesbrough team in the Championship and cleaned up but obviously once I made it to the Premiership my team struggled against bigger teams. My team have very low work rate which I am trying to improve but obviously financial restrictions mean it will take me a lot longer.

That's a big depends. In the case where players fit the system, but aren't quite the quality I need then yet then yes. But often - as we see in real life - I have quality players who don't fit the system, which then becomes more difficult.

[vrbrasa]

thanks  

i really enjoy your posts. it´s remember me sfraiser too. 

and i'm back to the game again

it's fantastic hoe you just move in one or two roles and the you play totally different

keep up the good work

you have another fan from portugal (sporting suporter) 

[Duke313]

Brilliant read Ö-zil, really gave me a better understanding of how tactics work on FM, before I just downloaded a tactic until I found one that worked.  

One question I have though is, my forward doesn't seem to lead the press like described in the OP, his PI has close down less as the highest selected.  Is this normal?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 18 February 2017 at 09:04, vrbrasa said:

thanks  

i really enjoy your posts. it´s remember me sfraiser too. 

and i'm back to the game again

it's fantastic hoe you just move in one or two roles and the you play totally different

keep up the good work

you have another fan from portugal (sporting suporter) 

Thank you very much. The comment on SFraser is a massive compliment. As I said in the initial Cruyff 3-4-3 thread - reading his advice on building squads made all of this possible.

Appreciate it.

[enders357]

This is a wonderful thread, and I'm going to be intrigued to implement this (perhaps with a couple of minor tweaks) in a save I have going with Atletico. 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Have you considered a Simeone tactic? I'd be nterested to see your interpretation. I've spent many hours honing my own and, while I think it's pretty accurate to Atleti IRL, it doesn't work fantastically in FM - the space left by the full backs providing the width in attacking situations is easily exploited by the opposition. 

Also, do you use OIs to influence tactics at all? I've found it very useful in the past. For instance, with a Simeone like tactic, having the opposing goalkeeper and defence closed down "always" and tackled "hard" creates the high press, while "never" tight marking the wide midfielders or wingers but "always" closing them down creates the wide press. Turning all wide players on to the opposite foot (ie., right backs on to their left, left backs on to their right) drives them to the centre, where our narrow shape ensures we dominate.

[Jean0987654321]

On 04/09/2017 at 15:29, enders357 said:

This is a wonderful thread, and I'm going to be intrigued to implement this (perhaps with a couple of minor tweaks) in a save I have going with Atletico. 

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Have you considered a Simeone tactic? I'd be nterested to see your interpretation. I've spent many hours honing my own and, while I think it's pretty accurate to Atleti IRL, it doesn't work fantastically in FM - the space left by the full backs providing the width in attacking situations is easily exploited by the opposition. 

Also, do you use OIs to influence tactics at all? I've found it very useful in the past. For instance, with a Simeone like tactic, having the opposing goalkeeper and defence closed down "always" and tackled "hard" creates the high press, while "never" tight marking the wide midfielders or wingers but "always" closing them down creates the wide press. Turning all wide players on to the opposite foot (ie., right backs on to their left, left backs on to their right) drives them to the centre, where our narrow shape ensures we dominate.

I would looove to see Ozil's interpretation of Simeone. Mine is prolly gonna be a bit different a Structured 4411 with Griezzmann as a SS (a) and Gamiero a DF.

Edited April 15, 2017 by Jean0987654321

[kad38]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal! Hello I use the 4-4-2 flat so I try the link you put (arrigo sacchi) a line of defense very high, more pressure all with very fluid and control is not bad but I take a lot of goal in the back of my defense the opponents have boulevard in front of them and I take that goals like that .... what to do after you ?? Thank you for your formidable work

[Cain89]

Thank you for the thread. Do you think that we can use this one in fm 17?

[andymankc]

Could you explain 2 things:

1. Why you set tight marking (TI) and what you get with this instruction?

2. Why closing down much more? Do your players get tired in last 15 min? 

Thanks

[ruudv17]

Have read all of your tactics, really amazing work!

I have seen some discussions in the thread and I have used the 4-2-3-1 variant myself. It seems that if I push my two wingers up to AMR and AML the compactness you have been talking about is affected. So I'm wondering what is your interpretation of a 4-2-3-1 variant of this system? Thank you very much!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

17 hours ago, ruudv17 said:

Have read all of your tactics, really amazing work!

I have seen some discussions in the thread and I have used the 4-2-3-1 variant myself. It seems that if I push my two wingers up to AMR and AML the compactness you have been talking about is affected. So I'm wondering what is your interpretation of a 4-2-3-1 variant of this system? Thank you very much!

That is a very good question. Something I have actually been experimenting with for the last few weeks and possibly enough content for an entire thread of it's own..

The first thing is that I would never interpret the 4-2-3-1s we see in real life as a straight 4-2-3-1 (MC-MC-AMR-AMC-AML) in the tactics creator.

For why, read the 4-1-4-1 thread. In a nutshell, I do not think 4 players in the AM/ST strata is balanced. You can bypass 40% of the entire team with a single pass and leave the rest stretched and outnumbered.

My interpretation would more likely be down to player roles. 2 Defensive roles and 3 Support/Attack roles (depending on the team mentality).

Off the top of my head, I would say there are two - rather different - variants of 4-2-3-1 and the key difference is how they defend.

1. Lower block, perhaps more counter-attacking variants often defend as a 4-4-1-1 shape.
2. More intense pressing variants are more likely to defend as a 4-1-4-1.

In the 4-4-1-1 variant, giving the wide players Attack roles would create a 4-2-3-1 shape when you have the ball and give you a very solid 'two banks of four' without. This would combine well with Defensive, Counter or Standard mentalities - anything with a lower or medium defensive block.

In the 4-1-4-1 variant you could field the 4-1-2-2-1 formation with the DM and one of your MCs on Defend, and the other MC on Support (+ Forward Runs) or Attack, again creating a 4-2-3-1 in attack. This would combine well with Control or Attack mentalities where you have a higher line and more pressing.

In fact, this post really illustrates the main reason 4-2-3-1 is so popular in real football - flexibility.

[ruudv17]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

That is a very good question. Something I have actually been experimenting with for the last few weeks and possibly enough content for an entire thread of it's own..

The first thing is that I would never interpret the 4-2-3-1s we see in real life as a straight 4-2-3-1 (MC-MC-AMR-AMC-AML) in the tactics creator.

For why, read the 4-1-4-1 thread. In a nutshell, I do not think 4 players in the AM/ST strata is balanced. You can bypass 40% of the entire team with a single pass and leave the rest stretched and outnumbered.

My interpretation would more likely be down to player roles. 2 Defensive roles and 3 Support/Attack roles (depending on the team mentality).

Off the top of my head, I would say there are two - rather different - variants of 4-2-3-1 and the key difference is how they defend.

1. Lower block, perhaps more counter-attacking variants often defend as a 4-4-1-1 shape.
2. More intense pressing variants are more likely to defend as a 4-1-4-1.

In the 4-4-1-1 variant, giving the wide players Attack roles would create a 4-2-3-1 shape when you have the ball and give you a very solid 'two banks of four' without. This would combine well with Defensive, Counter or Standard mentalities - anything with a lower or medium defensive block.

In the 4-1-4-1 variant you could field the 4-1-2-2-1 formation with the DM and one of your MCs on Defend, and the other MC on Support (+ Forward Runs) or Attack, again creating a 4-2-3-1 in attack. This would combine well with Control or Attack mentalities where you have a higher line and more pressing.

In fact, this post really illustrates the main reason 4-2-3-1 is so popular in real football - flexibility.

Really inspiring explainations!

I guess I should only use a straight 4-2-3-1 when I fully control the game or maybe select a less fluid shape as in the Brazil Jogo Bonito thread?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

12 hours ago, ruudv17 said:

Really inspiring explainations!

I guess I should only use a straight 4-2-3-1 when I fully control the game or maybe select a less fluid shape as in the Brazil Jogo Bonito thread?

You're welcome. The Jogo Bonito thread is actually a great example, as this was my interpretation of a 4-2-4! 

[Jrddrkly]

Hey had a lot of success recently after reading through this and your Ajax thread and implimenting those ideas into the tactics I've been using and I'm just struggling a little with closing games out since I either seem to win 4 or 5-0 or draw 1-1 conceding a late goal. I'm thinking this is because of the tactics high physical demands so I tried slowing the tempo a little and dropping one of the MC's back to a DMC on DM-def role but still seem to have the same problems.

Other than that thanks for the inspiration and all the effort you must have put into this

[jc577]

14 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Off the top of my head, I would say there are two - rather different - variants of 4-2-3-1 and the key difference is how they defend.

1. Lower block, perhaps more counter-attacking variants often defend as a 4-4-1-1 shape.
2. More intense pressing variants are more likely to defend as a 4-1-4-1.

In the 4-4-1-1 variant, giving the wide players Attack roles would create a 4-2-3-1 shape when you have the ball and give you a very solid 'two banks of four' without. This would combine well with Defensive, Counter or Standard mentalities - anything with a lower or medium defensive block.

In the 4-1-4-1 variant you could field the 4-1-2-2-1 formation with the DM and one of your MCs on Defend, and the other MC on Support (+ Forward Runs) or Attack, again creating a 4-2-3-1 in attack. This would combine well with Control or Attack mentalities where you have a higher line and more pressing.

In fact, this post really illustrates the main reason 4-2-3-1 is so popular in real football - flexibility.

Very interesting insight Özil, quick question: with the 4-1-4-1 (4-1-2-2-1 DM) would the DLP be given a support duty so he steps up into midfield when you have the ball, and likewise the two wide players given support duties so they drop back into midfield when defending giving you that 4 across midfield?

[howard moon]

16 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

 My interpretation would more likely be down to player roles. 2 Defensive roles and 3 Support/Attack roles (depending on the team mentality).

Off the top of my head, I would say there are two - rather different - variants of 4-2-3-1 and the key difference is how they defend.

1. Lower block, perhaps more counter-attacking variants often defend as a 4-4-1-1 shape.
2. More intense pressing variants are more likely to defend as a 4-1-4-1.

In the 4-4-1-1 variant, giving the wide players Attack roles would create a 4-2-3-1 shape when you have the ball and give you a very solid 'two banks of four' without. This would combine well with Defensive, Counter or Standard mentalities - anything with a lower or medium defensive block.

In the 4-1-4-1 variant you could field the 4-1-2-2-1 formation with the DM and one of your MCs on Defend, and the other MC on Support (+ Forward Runs) or Attack, again creating a 4-2-3-1 in attack. This would combine well with Control or Attack mentalities where you have a higher line and more pressing.

In fact, this post really illustrates the main reason 4-2-3-1 is so popular in real football - flexibility.

Hi @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, does this apply for just 'very fluid' shapes, or any?

[ruudv17]

17 hours ago, Jrddrkly said:

Hey had a lot of success recently after reading through this and your Ajax thread and implimenting those ideas into the tactics I've been using and I'm just struggling a little with closing games out since I either seem to win 4 or 5-0 or draw 1-1 conceding a late goal. I'm thinking this is because of the tactics high physical demands so I tried slowing the tempo a little and dropping one of the MC's back to a DMC on DM-def role but still seem to have the same problems.

Other than that thanks for the inspiration and all the effort you must have put into this

I tried to lower the tempo and asked my players to use short passes, retain possession and avoid passing into space in order to get more control of the ball. It works fine for me. You don't have to break the original system, such as dropping your MC to DMC. I found that even though it makes perfect sense to sit low and defend, it is not the case in the game. Being too conservative will encourage your opponent to go heavy on you and eventually score a goal.

[Jrddrkly]

11 hours ago, ruudv17 said:

I tried to lower the tempo and asked my players to use short passes, retain possession and avoid passing into space in order to get more control of the ball. It works fine for me. You don't have to break the original system, such as dropping your MC to DMC. I found that even though it makes perfect sense to sit low and defend, it is not the case in the game. Being too conservative will encourage your opponent to go heavy on you and eventually score a goal.

Hey thanks for the advise, gave it a go and seemed to do the trick, I think it might also have something to do with the fact my first team has around 6/7 regens under the age of 21 and it may be in part to their naivety.

[BrianMunich]

Trying this set up of 442 with high pressing and high line and its futile. Yes I can have 60% possession, but lose 5-1 because all teams do is run channels, cross, goal. 

Lowering defensive line i guess can help, but how did anyone go about stopping this cross goal problem whilst maintaining a high line?

[jc577]

3 hours ago, BrianMunich said:

Trying this set up of 442 with high pressing and high line and its futile. Yes I can have 60% possession, but lose 5-1 because all teams do is run channels, cross, goal. 

Lowering defensive line i guess can help, but how did anyone go about stopping this cross goal problem whilst maintaining a high line?

Getting this system to work is all about having complete footballers as Özil points out. So you need to have players with good composure, first touch, passing etc in order to keep the ball. In regard to defenders they need to have good acceleration, positioning and anticipation (amongst other attributes) so that they can deal with balls over the top. If you're CB's aren't up to scratch you should lower the d-line; it won't affect the style of the system it will just mean your team will retreat a bit more before pressing the opposition.  

[tajj7]

So I have now evolved from the Ajax 3-5-1-1 to this version with my Southampton save in FM18.

The 3-5-1-1 did manage to get me 6th position but we just shipped so many goals, conceding 6 on at least 2 occasions and shipping 5 in a few more.  There are too many teams playing variations of 4-2-3-1 with quality AMLs and AMRs that exploit all that space beside your back 3.

The 4-4-1-1 provides more stability but uses the same principles and I've seen some excellent football from it. 

Dolberg is my main striker, last year in the 3-5-1-1 I had him as a False 9 and he was banging in the goals, now I have him a a CF-S, he is not banging in the goals as much, but his average rating and assists have gone up. When I watch the team move he creates so much space for my other players, dragging players out of position that my AM-A and CM-S can exploit, especially as my CMs now have the right PPMs like plays one-twos and gets forward whenever possible. 

Having the right players for this system is crucial, it's completely changed the way I do player searches and look at players generally. Previously I look at a player, see his headline stats and think he was really good, now I am rejecting players because of their poor work rate, or decisions etc. 

Players I have found and then developed who are perfect for the system are the 3 Ajax youngsters Dolberg, De Ligt and van De Beek -

I am hoping to get De Ligts pace up a bit more so he is better with the high line, but his all round ability is excellent. 

Dolberg is a revelation as complete forward and integral to how we play, then De Beek represents the complete midfielder, with virtually no weaknesses to his game.

In time hopefully all their mentals will improve as well. 

[sue_donym]

On 15/11/2017 at 10:20, tajj7 said:

Having the right players for this system is crucial, it's completely changed the way I do player searches and look at players generally

This. I’ve even gone so far as designing an Excel spreadsheet into which I enter each players values for the necessary technical mental and physical attributes and then having a fins column with averages of those attributes to create a ‘Universality score’ - aiming to get my entire team to >14. The CBs’ off the ball and vision let me down slightly at the moment...

[Duke313]

On 11/15/2017 at 10:20, tajj7 said:

So I have now evolved from the Ajax 3-5-1-1 to this version with my Southampton save in FM18.

The 3-5-1-1 did manage to get me 6th position but we just shipped so many goals, conceding 6 on at least 2 occasions and shipping 5 in a few more.  There are too many teams playing variations of 4-2-3-1 with quality AMLs and AMRs that exploit all that space beside your back 3.

The 4-4-1-1 provides more stability but uses the same principles and I've seen some excellent football from it. 

Dolberg is my main striker, last year in the 3-5-1-1 I had him as a False 9 and he was banging in the goals, now I have him a a CF-S, he is not banging in the goals as much, but his average rating and assists have gone up. When I watch the team move he creates so much space for my other players, dragging players out of position that my AM-A and CM-S can exploit, especially as my CMs now have the right PPMs like plays one-twos and gets forward whenever possible. 

Having the right players for this system is crucial, it's completely changed the way I do player searches and look at players generally. Previously I look at a player, see his headline stats and think he was really good, now I am rejecting players because of their poor work rate, or decisions etc. 

Players I have found and then developed who are perfect for the system are the 3 Ajax youngsters Dolberg, De Ligt and van De Beek -

I am hoping to get De Ligts pace up a bit more so he is better with the high line, but his all round ability is excellent. 

Dolberg is a revelation as complete forward and integral to how we play, then De Beek represents the complete midfielder, with virtually no weaknesses to his game.

In time hopefully all their mentals will improve as well. 

How do you assess if someone is right for the tactic?  Do you use Ozil's attributes?

[tajj7]

On 2/3/2018 at 22:10, Duke313 said:

How do you assess if someone is right for the tactic?  Do you use Ozil's attributes?

Basically yes. 

Key areas for me are work rate, decisions, concentration as these you can't train. Things like passing, first touch, technique, stamina you can work on as long as they are not too low.  I also like to have lots of determined players as I think that helps with the other mental attributes, but of course you can tutor that. 

You need all round players that can do pretty much everything well, so in young players I'll take players that have 10-13s (depending on age) in lots of areas over a player that might have stand out attributes in a few areas. 

With this style of playing, you need complete players, very few of these are ready to buy, so a lot of this is about moulding young players into the players you want. Dolberg, De Ligt and Van Der Beek are good examples of young well rounded players at the start of the game that work well in the system, but that is because they are from Ajax and Ajax develop their players this way IRL. Should remember though that I think they have variable PA, so on some saves they will become top level, other saves they might only hit good. I had Van De Beek on another save and he barely improved past his starting attributes. 

Focused training, tutoring, and choosing the right players to mould are key IMO. It's not just about choosing a tactic and style of play, your scouting, youth development etc. all have to be focused around the same goal. 

[LeonardSnart]

Wouldn't Shadow Striker be a better option than Advanced Midfielder?

[saihtam]

On 2/4/2018 at 00:10, Duke313 said:

Do you use Ozil's attributes?

Have not read the all thread, but what you mean by Ozil's attributes?

[zlatanera]

2 hours ago, saihtam said:

Have not read the all thread, but what you mean by Ozil's attributes?

From another one of Ozil's threads, but basically those are the attributes he talks of as necessary for a "complete player". If you look at the screenshots of Dolberg, de Ligt and Van de Beek above you'll see they've got at least 15 in almost all of the listed attributes (its expected to have lower Positioning for an attacker, for example, and lower Off The Ball for centre backs

[saihtam]

On 2/9/2018 at 19:10, zlatanera said:

From another one of Ozil's threads, but basically those are the attributes he talks of as necessary for a "complete player". If you look at the screenshots of Dolberg, de Ligt and Van de Beek above you'll see they've got at least 15 in almost all of the listed attributes (its expected to have lower Positioning for an attacker, for example, and lower Off The Ball for centre backs

Any one can share this view?

[zlatanera]

3 hours ago, saihtam said:

Any one can share this view?

Well I've replicated it for myself so I could have just done a screenshot of my own game but I was on a different computer. 

[luka_zg]

Ok, I'm not playing this variant of 442, but I am playing a 442 formation looking like this:

gk  -GK/D

dr- FB/S

cd - CD/d

cd - CD/D

dl - FB/S

ml - w/a

dmcl - DM/s

mcr - AP/s

mr - WM/s

STL - dlf/s

STR - cf/a

TI: standard-structured, play out of defence,prevent gk distribution, work ball into box

I am playing with Atletico Madrid and finished my 1st season in 5th place which is quite bad. My problem with this, and I can't figure out why, is taht I am conceding way too many goals. I have conceded 48 goals in the league in 38 matches, this is really bad. I don't see this tactic to be overly offensive and I have no idea why am I conceding so many goals?? I also tried to play with DM on defend or put one fullback on defend, or just play counter but nothing changes. Can anybody see what is the issue here, I am going totally insane with this...

Edited March 5, 2018 by luka_zg

[vasilli07]

You only show the formation but what's the roles and duties?

[luka_zg]

4 minutes ago, vasilli07 said:

You only show the formation but what's the roles and duties?

it was the wrong formation, now i have written roles and duties.

formation is 4-4-2 with one cm in dm position.

[Tyrinko]

On 5. 3. 2018 at 15:29, luka_ said:

it was the wrong formation, now i have written roles and duties.

formation is 4-4-2 with one cm in dm position.

In my opinion your problem is structured lineup -your players are far away each to other which gives  opposition more space to exploit. Try change it to very fluid, it can help a lot 

[luka_zg]

On 3/27/2018 at 00:09, Tyrinko said:

In my opinion your problem is structured lineup -your players are far away each to other which gives  opposition more space to exploit. Try change it to very fluid, it can help a lot 

I've changed to flexible.

In my 2nd season, again we conceded 44 goals which was again too much. I then sold my entire defence and spent 150mil on new defenders an in 3rd season won the title with 87 points and conceded only 21 goals.

Also changed a bit roles..like this:

https://www.buildlineup.com/shared/5abcd68c138c092e24ab0ac3

[Whelan102]

Hi Man, @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

Great thread, I don't know if your still seeing this but I was wondering if with the new roles on fm 18 you might change anything ?

 

Nice one. 

[Dawsey]

Apologies for bumping this thread but I was wondering if anyone had attempted this in FM19?

Would be great to see how this can be interpreted with the tactical changes. 

Mainly where to put the line of engagement, in transition & out of possession instructions plus the defensive width.

 

[Francesco1983]

but how nice this thread.I am a lover of 442, also for FM19 you will propose new ones? And also other modules? Super nice work and also an illustrious that makes the concepts very well

[Deego619]

Here is my first tactic from my first season on the Beta (QPR is always my first save). Trying to keep the philosophies created by Sacchi and Ozil, bringing them into the new tactics system.

 

This has felt almost like an exploit tactic at times, QPR's media prediction is 21st with a bare squad, January transfer embargo and relying on key loanee players and youngsters. My defence is slower than something like this tactic requires and my Goalkeeper is League 1 level at best, so to still have the 4th best defence whilst blitzing the league with goals makes me feel like this tactic performs a lot better than it should. However, we have hard working players all over the pitch, even my squad players were determined, hard working beavers. 

I've altered some of my PIs in order to give players some specific instructions whilst not altering the mentality. My right sided central midfielder holds position, and my right winger is allowed to get Forward more often.

Nahki Wells with 38 league goals.

Other player stats:

 

I'll be very curious to see if I can continue this tactic in the Premier League, as I was a relegation candidate for the Championship as well. Almost all of the squad is out of contract, and the core of loanees will return to their parent clubs. I have 35m to spend to form a squad in this tactic's image and achieve survival, so we'll see what happens.

[CybrSlydr]

On 31/10/2018 at 11:43, JDeeguain said:

However, we have hard working players all over the pitch, even my squad players were determined, hard working beavers. 

Chris Kamara fan, are we? 

[shonaxxx]

On 31/10/2018 at 17:43, JDeeguain said:

Here is my first tactic from my first season on the Beta (QPR is always my first save). Trying to keep the philosophies created by Sacchi and Ozil, bringing them into the new tactics system.

 

 

any PI ? or OI?

[AceAvenger]

On 31/10/2018 at 18:43, JDeeguain said:

Here is my first tactic from my first season on the Beta (QPR is always my first save). Trying to keep the philosophies created by Sacchi and Ozil, bringing them into the new tactics system.

 

This has felt almost like an exploit tactic at times, QPR's media prediction is 21st with a bare squad, January transfer embargo and relying on key loanee players and youngsters. My defence is slower than something like this tactic requires and my Goalkeeper is League 1 level at best, so to still have the 4th best defence whilst blitzing the league with goals makes me feel like this tactic performs a lot better than it should. However, we have hard working players all over the pitch, even my squad players were determined, hard working beavers. 

I've altered some of my PIs in order to give players some specific instructions whilst not altering the mentality. My right sided central midfielder holds position, and my right winger is allowed to get Forward more often.

Nahki Wells with 38 league goals.

Other player stats:

 

I'll be very curious to see if I can continue this tactic in the Premier League, as I was a relegation candidate for the Championship as well. Almost all of the squad is out of contract, and the core of loanees will return to their parent clubs. I have 35m to spend to form a squad in this tactic's image and achieve survival, so we'll see what happens.

Very well done John, whatever happened when you got to the Premier League?