Closing Down

[Amarante]

A quick question on creating the high press. On higher Mentalities( Control, Attacking), Depending on the roles you choose their PI for closing down are set to sometimes or less.

Why is this so?

I would think that seeing as the TI states that everyone should close down, why are their PI's telling them to not closing down. This lead me sometimes to leave it on sometimes and set TI's to close down more. I read some where that PI > TI. The problem with this is that the players seem to not be closing down. I've observed where it seems the shape that you take, and how many persons are near the ball will influence the press of the team.

Example, i created a 3-6-1 on a counter mentality, push higher up and get stuck in. The press was marvelous, was forcing the AI to play long where we would recover the ball 60% of the time. As soon as i switched to Control/Attacking the press was no more.

In my current save I am using a 3-4-3 shape on Attacking, the team closes down as i have their PI's set to close down more but were not really pressing as effectively as i want them to.

So what exactly goes into creating a good press, I know roles are important. I also believe though, i could be wrong, pushing higher up is also apart of this. I also think i am missing something else.

[pedrosantos]

If TI is set to close down much more, you can't tell players to close down even more because it is already at maximum so in PI the maximum should be close down "sometimes", which means to close down equal to the team.

Still, I think there's some issues there some roles do not have the PI option to close down sometimes, only have less or much less.

[Amarante]

If TI is set to close down much more, you can't tell players to close down even more because it is already at maximum so in PI the maximum should be close down "sometimes", which means to close down equal to the team.

Still, I think there's some issues there some roles do not have the PI option to close down sometimes, only have less or much less.

Well that sheds somelight a little, but why is it that this only applies to higher mentalities

[HUNT3R]

Well that sheds some light a little, but why is it that this only applies to higher mentalities

The more attacking mentalities will already have high closing down, so you're starting from a higher base.

[pedrosantos]

Well that sheds somelight a little, but why is it that this only applies to higher mentalities

I replied to that also. I think what should be happening should be something like:

Team Instruction: Close Down Much More;

Player Instruction Options available: Close Down Much Less, Close Down Less, Close Down Sometimes;

Team Instruction: Close Down More;

Player Instruction Options Available: Close Down Much Less, Close Down Less, Close Down Sometimes, Close Down More;

Team Instruction: Close Down Sometimes;

Player Instruction Options Available: all;

Team Instruction: Close Down Less;

Player Instruction Options Available: Close Down Less, Close Down Sometimes, Close Down More, Close Down Much More;

Team Instruction: Close Down Much Less;

Player Instruction Options Available: Close Down Sometimes, Close Down More, Close Down Much More;

Unfortunately, its not happening but it would be useful if Mentality and Player Roles and Duties have an impact on the options available.

[Amarante]

Ok so it's making better sense now. I shall evaluate and see what happens.

[gunnerfan]

If you have a TI of "close down much more", is closing down specific players "always" via OI redundant?

[herne79]

Yes and no .

It may help if you really want to target a specific player in this manner, however on the flip side using OIs can be a step too far for some and start pulling your team too far out of shape and away from your tactical system.

Best bet - try it out. If you like what it adds to your system then great. If you find your players are getting pulled too far out of shape, bin it.

[pedrosantos]

Yes and no .

It may help if you really want to target a specific player in this manner, however on the flip side using OIs can be a step too far for some and start pulling your team too far out of shape and away from your tactical system.

Best bet - try it out. If you like what it adds to your system then great. If you find your players are getting pulled too far out of shape, bin it.

Hi herne, can you confirm what I posted is correct ? I'm assuming that is the logic, but I don't want to lead users (and my self) into a wrong interpretation

[herne79]

Hi herne, can you confirm what I posted is correct ? I'm assuming that is the logic, but I don't want to lead users (and my self) into a wrong interpretation

You are correct when you say there is a limit to the amount of closing down that can be set, yes.

[Rashidi]

Yes and no .

It may help if you really want to target a specific player in this manner, however on the flip side using OIs can be a step too far for some and start pulling your team too far out of shape and away from your tactical system.

Best bet - try it out. If you like what it adds to your system then great. If you find your players are getting pulled too far out of shape, bin it.

Very true, if you want to use this OI, then consider your own shape first.

[gunnerfan]

Very true, if you want to use this OI, then consider your own shape first.

Actually, rashidi, I've borrowed a number of your concepts from the Cruyff thread (refined in the Sacchi thread) and using them with my own 4-4-2. I've accepted the fact that when one closes down or tightly marks (or both!) an opposing player, one is by definition sacrificing some of their team shape. Against some opponents, I think that's a must, since the ME seems to read the lack of doing so as giving a talented opposing player free reign. But it also seems to me that whether one uses an OI to close down a specific player "always" or uses a TI to "close down much more", one must sacrifice some team shape to do so. My question is whether doing both has a cumulative effect or if they both do the same thing.

Side thought - I think (not sure, but it seems logical) that using OIs to close down one or two opposing players is going to be more effective than closing down most or all opposing players. When only a few are closed down, defenders are pretty much left going 1 on 1 with attackers, whereas if only a few players are targeted, they are almost always double-teamed.

[herne79]

OIs can essentially overwrite your tactical settings. This is why it is prudent to use them sparingly (if at all) as too many can quickly pull your team into all sorts of unrecognisable shapes.

However, if you already have Closing Down (to carry on the example) set to the maximum through your mentality, TIs and PIs, using this OI will have little (if any) effect as your team will be closing down all the opposition anyway.

You'll get more effect where you don't have high closing down set by your tactical system, so allowing you to specifically target certain individuals. Exercise caution however, keep a close eye on what OI usage is doing to your team.

I'd also avoid closing down instructions on an opposition striker as that would probably cause your central defenders to go charging around, which is rarely a good idea. Likewise closing down an opposition AMC when you don't play with a DMC could have a similarly bad effect on your CDs.

[gunnerfan]

Thanks, Herne.

Likewise closing down an opposition AMC when you don't play with a DMC could have a similarly bad effect on your CDs.

I hear that. At the same time, when facing a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-2-3-1 in which the AMC is the key guy, one usually has to do something. I'm currently playing a 4-4-1-1, standard mentality, very fluid, and one of my two CMs is a DLP(d), who very often looks for all the world like a DMC. I've been tempted to use him to man mark effective AMCs, but then that would likely pull him out of the "free safety" role I like him to play. My other CM is a CM(s), so I might use him.

[Rashidi]

Actually, rashidi, I've borrowed a number of your concepts from the Cruyff thread (refined in the Sacchi thread) and using them with my own 4-4-2. I've accepted the fact that when one closes down or tightly marks (or both!) an opposing player, one is by definition sacrificing some of their team shape. Against some opponents, I think that's a must, since the ME seems to read the lack of doing so as giving a talented opposing player free reign. But it also seems to me that whether one uses an OI to close down a specific player "always" or uses a TI to "close down much more", one must sacrifice some team shape to do so. My question is whether doing both has a cumulative effect or if they both do the same thing.

Side thought - I think (not sure, but it seems logical) that using OIs to close down one or two opposing players is going to be more effective than closing down most or all opposing players. When only a few are closed down, defenders are pretty much left going 1 on 1 with attackers, whereas if only a few players are targeted, they are almost always double-teamed.

Not looking at the cumulative effect as I am looking at the madness for picking the wrong player. I once had an AMC peel off 5 of my players.

[herne79]

I hear that. At the same time, when facing a 4-4-1-1 or a 4-2-3-1 in which the AMC is the key guy, one usually has to do something. I'm currently playing a 4-4-1-1, standard mentality, very fluid, and one of my two CMs is a DLP(d), who very often looks for all the world like a DMC. I've been tempted to use him to man mark effective AMCs, but then that would likely pull him out of the "free safety" role I like him to play. My other CM is a CM(s), so I might use him.

Just a little food for thought - consider what you can do about the supply to a dangerous AMC, rather than just the AMC himself. Restricting the space he has to operate in can also get you results.

[gunnerfan]

Not looking at the cumulative effect as I am looking at the madness for picking the wrong player. I once had an AMC peel off 5 of my players.

Ouch!

Just curious - who was it?

Edited to add: I just noticed that I erroneously credited the Cruyff and Sacchi threads. They were actually both started by O-zil to the Arsenal. Sorry about that.

[Rashidi]

Ouch!

Just curious - who was it?

Edited to add: I just noticed that I erroneously credited the Cruyff and Sacchi threads. They were actually both started by O-zil to the Arsenal. Sorry about that.

Twas my latest Kingstonian save where I tried desperately to win a team that was favourites to lift the title, OIed the AMC and had my defense fall apart.

[gunnerfan]

Twas my latest Kingstonian save where I tried desperately to win a team that was favourites to lift the title, OIed the AMC and had my defense fall apart.

My sympathies.

[Rashidi]

My sympathies.

Always fun doing stupid things :-)

[Kawee]

I think that the problem can be mitigated a bit in FM17 if they just change the word "sometimes" to "normal" or "per team instruction" as right now some people read "sometimes" and don't look at how far right the bar has gone.

[Coyh]

I like to close down in waves, at the moment I am playing a 4-3-1-2 so I have one striker and all mc closing down more and leave my defenders to try and keep a shape at the back. Working well and does not create to many gaps to have exploited.