Liverpool save ruined in 3rd season, what do I do? (detailed tactics underneath)

[SamL94]

Right so I made a thread like this earlier on tonight but it was pointed out that I did not put enough information about my tactics, and what I was actually asking, so I'll try again.

I have a save with Liverpool. First season went decent, finished 4th. Second season I finished 3rd and got to quarter-finals of Champions League. But my third season has gone to ruins. I'm currently 13th after 10 games, 7 points off 4th, which is obviously where I want to be.

Underneath are the tactics I am using. These have been pretty much the same right from the start of the save, but obviously with different players.

GK: Leno

RB: Clyne (full back, automatic)

CB: Matip (central defender, defend)

CB: De Vrij (ball playing defender, defend)

LB: Gaya (full back, automatic)

CM: Henderson (box to box midfielder, support)

CM: Joao Mario (Deep lying playmaker, defend)

RAM: Shaqiri (inside forward, support)

CAM: Firmino (advanced playmaker, attack)

LAM: Ibe (inside forward, support) (this is usually Coutinho, but he's out injured all season)

ST: Sturridge (Complete forward, attack)

Control

Flexible

Work ball in to box

Play out of defence

Prevent short GK distribution

Like I say, these instructions worked pretty well in the first 2 seasons, but now I am getting found out. Where has it gone wrong?

Based on the players I have, would you recommend passing in to space? Retaining possession? Looking for overlap? Playing direct? Being more expressive? More disciplined? Because I look at all these players and I have no clue what instructions would work, and how to tell.

It's not through a lack of football knowledge. I love football more than pretty much anyone, and went to over 50 live matches last season as well as watching about 200 more on TV. But I just really do not understand how to know which tactics to use.

I know what the tactics MEAN, but I just don't know which ones are best to use.

Obviously as an example I know that retain possession priorities keeping hold of the ball and having most of the possession, with patient build up, a bit like Van Gaal's Man Utd last season. I know pass in to space is a more direct, faster approach. I know look for overlap prioritises getting the ball out to your full backs when they bomb forward. I know work ball in to box is all about getting the ball in to the box through play, rather than just pumping it up in the box. Etc Etc. But even though I know what these tactics mean I still can't look at my team and say confidently that I know which tactics would actually benefit them.

It's really frustrating because this isn't the first FM save I've struggled with. In fact I'd go as far as to say this has been my most successful...

[Jambo98]

For me, there are 2 things which stand out, one at each end of the park.

1) Attacking - You have little width in the team. You have had good success over the first 2 years, meaning more and more AI teams will sit in against you and make it hard for you to find space. One of the first place to look to either find space, or create it, is the flanks. If you have threats wide, the opposition have to deal with that. Either they dont deal with it, and you can have joy there, or they do deal with it, but at the expense of opening up space inside.

You have 2 x IF who cut inside, so no width there. Your fullbacks are on conservative roles / duty (I believe with "automatic", under "Control" it will default to "Support"). Gaya in particular has some great attacking talent and PPMs but probable needs a role which invites him to go forward more. You could also potentially achieve it with the TI "look for the overlap", but that does change other parts of the pattern of play.

Linked to this, when you watch the game what do you see with the attacking 4? 2 players on the same role and duty on the flanks, cutting into the space where Firmino is already going to be, and Hendo might well be heading into (BBM has "roam" selected by default). You will end up conjested and it could be easy for the opponent to snuff that out.

2) Defence - Lack of a shield - So you have opted for the 4231 without a DM, which can work of course, but who is the shield for your back 4? There are a couple of issues here. In the 4231, although you have support duties on the flanks, they are still less effective than say an MR or ML. Again thats the choice you make, but what it can mean is your MC's have to cover some wide ground at times. This leaves you open in the middle, and worse, means your DC's have no shield and might have to come racing out to close down, which then leaves gaps.

I would assume that your DLP(d) is designed to be the shield, and that can work, but Joao Mario, at least at the start, is not a particularly defensive player. He does have some great mental stats but i am not certain i would want to have a 4231 with him as my main shield. BBM is quite aggressive in its movement so Hendo wont shield much.

The shield is also key to getting your fullbacks more effective. If you want to give them more license (to solve the attacking problem) then you will need to address the cover for the DCs. There are other ways, you might push the line much higher to close the space between the lines, of think of a different team shape to reduce the gap - all are open to you.

At the same time, if you do make dline changes, consider your approach to winning the ball back. You have 4 players high, but no pressing TI or PI. That can be ok, but 4 high players is ripe for a high press (pretty much what Klopp does).

I wouldnt have specific instructions on which TI to add, or which role to change, because I am not seeing your save and games and seeing what behaviours cause the defeats (you need to look more at that if you want real help - telling us how you play and your outcomes is good, but whats the cause? Too many goals against? Loads of possession, no shots? Too many long shots? Conceding to balls over the top?)

Hopefully some of those things can help you look and think and find a solution

[summatsupeer]

Take a step back and try and think of the big picture. Think about what team identity you want to have, not what instructions you should click, use the various instructions to create that identity. You've asked pretty much the same question, with very similar tactic with very slight player differences for every season. Why did you buy those players? What attributes did you highlight as being required to fit your team identity?

How are you going to create goals and defend your goal is the simplest way to break it up but they need to work together and have the correct players. Currently i'd say your trying to fit too many attacking players into the team and don't have the defenders required to defend how you've setup.

1. Your still using that very attacking formation that relies on pressing with no instructions to do so and will the players do it well?

Increase your closing down and/or d-line. Consider stopping short gk distribution or can you create a mistake with your pressing? Consider Tighter Marking to increase the pressure your closing down causes. If not you need to consider a formation change so you get more men behind the ball.

2. Your still using a open midfield with a BBM roaming from his position, leaving a weak defensively DLP (Joao Mario) as the only player covering in front of the central defenders.

You need to consider your roles+duties and the players used. CM-D with a DLP-D or DLP-S is a good partnership that should create space for your AMC and allows one of your fullbacks to be more adventurous...

3. Gaya is a great attacking wingback but he's just playing a FB-S role when your advanced players are coming inside?

FB-A, WB-S or WB-A and get him doing what he does best.

4. Two IF-S, AP-A, CF-A and a BBM coming from deep, sounds a bit congested.

Ibe played great as a W-A on the right for me with Clyne as a FB-S. If you have Gaya more attacking then your AML can come inside more as a IF or AP. With a winger on the right and if you go for the double pivot (CM-D + DLP-D) you should have more space for your AMC and AML to operate. There's lots of ways you can setup your AMC, AML and ST with a solid foundation of depth and width from the rest of the team. The exact roles, duties and instructions depends on the style your going for.

[Earnie is God!]

Sam, I sent you a message yesterday after your old thread was closed.

But if, like me, you never get any notifications when you have new messages despite 'asking' to receive them, then you probably hadn't noticed.

Anyway, my message simply said to check out O-zil's two threads in this topic: Cruyff 3-4-3 and Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2.

Both use a very simple but effective philosophy and I think that the 4-4-2 one would suit the Liverpool side you have very much so.

[SamL94]

Sam, I sent you a message yesterday after your old thread was closed.

But if, like me, you never get any notifications when you have new messages despite 'asking' to receive them, then you probably hadn't noticed.

Anyway, my message simply said to check out O-zil's two threads in this topic: Cruyff 3-4-3 and Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2.

Both use a very simple but effective philosophy and I think that the 4-4-2 one would suit the Liverpool side you have very much so.

Thanks for that, I'll have a good read of them threads

[SamL94]

Hi guys, I've taken your points in to account regarding:

-Being too congested in the middle

-Having Gaya in a more attacking role

-Having more cover in midfield for my defence

Anyway, this is the formation and roles I have come up with:

(4-2-3-1 Defensive)

GK: Leno

RB: Clyne (full back, support)

CB: De Vrij (ball playing defender, defend)

CB: Matip (central defender, defend)

LB: Gaya (full back, attack)

CDM: Can/Henderson (Defensive midfielder, defend)

CDM: Joao Mario (Deep lying playmaker, support)

RAM: Ibe (winger, support)

CAM: Firmino (advanced playmaker/attacking midfielder, attack)

LAM: Shaqiri (inside foward/advanced playmaker, support)

ST: Sturridge (complete forward, attack)

Right, I'll try and explain why I've picked these. I've changed to 2 DM's because of the comments regarding lack of support for defence, especially now that I have Gaya attacking. I've put Gaya attacking to get the full benefits from him. I've changed Henderson/Can from a box to box to a normal midfielder, and also changed Ibe from an inside forward to a winger, to stop the congestion in attack. Changing these should hopefully cut it by 2 players.

Next question I'm struggling with though, what would work best with these. I would hazard a GUESS that flexible would be better, as this would allow my attacking full backs to get forward, and also allow the 2 DM's to get forward a bit and help out, rather than being stuck right in front of the defence. I'd go with control because, as I am one of the better teams in the league, I should be in charge of most games.

What about instructions though? Would you recommend retaining possession with this team/players? Or would you recommend something more fast, maybe 'pass into space' with a high tempo? And why?

Would you keep with 'work ball in the box' for Sturridge?

These are all the kinds of questions I am struggling with and don't know how to answer them either way.

[summatsupeer]

Don't worry about team shape too much, if you aren't sure then go with Flexible. It will give some create freedom and won't expand/compress your players, you can then modify it later (if needed) once your happy with your roles, duties and instructions.

I personally wouldn't go for Retain Possession with those players, retain possession is a more patient style relying on making good movement and consistent intelligent play. I would say your players don't excel in those areas, they do have good technical and physical attributes so personally i'd just try it how it is. Control has a good tempo to it and is quite attacking, you don't have to click instructions. Then if you see space to attack but your players aren't selecting that option, consider Pass Into Space. If your teams moving the ball to quick and running into dead ends then maybe slow the tempo or shorten the passing to move the ball forward slower. If you see missed opportunities to attack because your players are taking to long on the ball and missing out on a good run, then consider increasing tempo. Don't just change things every game because of the score, judge your setup on what you see.

[SamL94]

Yeah so I did what you all said, and guess what. Lost away to Palace who are 19th in the league and then lost at home to Norwich. I was left 13 points off 4th so quit the save.

What a joke this game is. Hours and hours put in to a save for **** like that. Once your teams gets in bad morale, that's it, your ****ed. But then I can use **** tactics and get a couple of lukcy wins and suddenly I go on an 11 game unbeaten run. Morale is so overimportant and stupid in this game.

I really cannot be bothered making another save and going through all the preseason and that ****.

The same thing happened with my QPR save. Spent hours on it, got promoted, only to then get relegated the follow season and the save ruined.

I think that's it with football manager. I watch and read enough about real life football to know I'm an expert at it, without needing some random game.

I'm not the first person to call this game out for what it is either. My workmate bought his football mad brother it the other week; his brother doesn't even bother playing it. And when I ask my mates who I actually go out and play football with and go watch real games with, if they play it, all of them pretty much say no. A few of em play FIFA, but no, not this.

[ashlfcowen]

What a joke this game is. Hours and hours put in to a save for **** like that. Once your teams gets in bad morale, that's it, your ****ed. But then I can use **** tactics and get a couple of lukcy wins and suddenly I go on an 11 game unbeaten run. Morale is so overimportant and stupid in this game.

Chelsea last season? I bet Mourinho was more upset than you are right now.

[summatsupeer]

You lost but what were the performances like? Was it set piece goals? Individual mistakes?

Obviously your annoyed but if you want more help then post what you used and try to be objective on what happened in those games and why.

[SamL94]

Chelsea last season? I bet Mourinho was more upset than you are right now.

Yeah I know it happens but for me it's happened in every single blood save. In fact I think getting to my 3rd season was the furthest I've got on this FM.

[SamL94]

You lost but what were the performances like? Was it set piece goals? Individual mistakes?

Obviously your annoyed but if you want more help then post what you used and try to be objective on what happened in those games and why.

Not set pieces, and didn't look like individual mistakes.

Too late anyway, saves gone. And I won't be making another.

[herne79]

The forum isn't for venting and swearing.

We all get frustrated with the game from time to time, however voicing your frustrations in such a manner goes beyond the forum rules. Please keep comments appropriate.