Gauging Interest: Combined Tactical & Squad Development Guide

[tmason122]

Hi all,

Introduction

Throughout the tactics and training forum there are loads of threads about specific tactics (Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond (Very Fluid), Introducing Mr. underrated:Jupp Heynckes, Antonio Conte's tactical masterclass, etc.), which are all very good threads. However they all focus on creating certain tactical blueprints and to a degree disregard squad development.

For me, to have a truly coherent tactical setup over a long-term save you need to take into account your squad development. Over time your squad changes, not only because you buy and sell players, as well as promoting players from the academy teams, but also because your players attributes always change over time, due to ageing, individual training, playing time, etc.

Benefits of such a thread

I was wondering if their would be interest from the forum if I was to write a thread about how to go about creating tactics that not only secure you results in the near-term but also maximise the ability of your squad and help to develop it in the long-term. The benefits that I see from such a thread are:

- It will allow FM managers to get the maximum value and use out of all their players

- It will allow FM managers to become more resourceful, reducing the needs for costly transfers and high player turnovers as you maximize what you already have in your squad

- Gives FM managers better awareness of the strengths and weaknesses of your squad and how they change over time.

- Help FM managers develop tactics that reflect the philosophies of the club that does not tie the manger into one tactic, but rather opens up the possibilities of tactical experimentation that assist with squad development through time

Example

I would use my current Burnley save (now 7 or 8 seasons in) as an example of how to go about this. Using this as an example of following this philosophy, you can develop see how whilst I followed a particular philosophy over time, I have had had of various tactical formations over the seasons that have allowed me to resourcefully use my squad whilst still winning.

I don't know if people are interested in this?

But if so, I would be happy to write how I went about doing this.

[herne79]

Thanks for the offer, constructive and helpful articles are always welcome. If you want to share your experiences of building Burnley's squad, and your tactical evolution, then go for it.

I know that sort of thing has been well received in the past (Jambo's DNA / Swiss Army Knife springs to mind), and it's always interesting to see how people go about developing their club - both tactically and personnel wise. Many people find such articles very useful.

If you need further ideas, there are some stickied guides at the top of this forum about tactical development, and some of Rashidi's stuff in particular looks at squad building.

[tmason122]

Yer, I have also seen Jambo's threads.... Also really good. But what I want to do is slightly different from Jambo's DNA thread. Whilst the DNA thread and this have the same aims (to help people with long-term saves), what I have in mind is based on some slightly different principles, with less of a focus on staff and youth training (though still important), and more of a focus on utilizing your squad to its maximum extent through evolving your tactics to meet your sqaud as that too evolves through time.

I have in mind a pro-active long-term tactical guide for multiple seasons that gets the best out of your all of your players and brings sustained success, rather than a reactive short-term tactical guide for one or two seasons that delivers short-term success at high cost.

[Beren]

HI,

it would be of great interest to me!

I often read the very nice threads you have named in order to draw some inspiration and see what other forumists do, but in the game I am more of an open-minded manager that develops his tactics taking into account strength and weaknesses of his team.

Moreover, I always wanted to progress into my career developing my own youngsters and I often failed to bring them into my first squad, therefore it would be another point of great interest to me.

This kind of thread would give me a lot of inspiring thoughts and many different point of views.

I hope you'll keep writing!

Thank you!

[LEEMOD]

Sounds great mate, I would definitely follow such a thread.

[Jambo98]

I think its absolutely worth doing, infact id encourage you to just go ahead and write it up / post it rather than worrying whether people want it or not

A suppose a few thoughts come to mind.

Firstly, i think your absolutely right that squad development is as important as tactics both in football, and in Football Manager. There are, broadly speaking, 2 schools of thought / management when it comes to this topic:

1 - I have a system / way of playing, and i will develop my squad to best fit with that system.

2 - I have a squad of players at any given time, with differing strengths as time / seasons go by. I will develop my tactics to best fit the players at my disposal.

Neither is right or wrong. The very best, i suspect, combine the 2. When you take on a new job / club, the chances of the squad being perfectly balance to fit your footballing ideals / philosophy are slim. You can try and shoe horn your system onto existing players (how did that work out, Mr Van Gaal....) but really you are best served by a slow migration. Start with something which plays to your strengths as they are, and slowly build your squad to migrate towards your footballing ideal.

For me, when you think of this it is worth distinguishing "Tactics" from "Formation" - we get very hung up on "formation" at times. Everyone is wondering if Conte will now come in and play 3 at the back at Chelsea, because he won several titles at Juve that way and has Italy playing that way. There is no guarantee that he will play 3 at the back (infact, if you read up on some Conte quotes, you will see that playing 3 at the back started specifically when Juve signed Vidal, and Conte needed to fit 3 central midfielders into his lineup - Adopting his formation to suit his players). What Conte absolutely will do, is demand that Chelsea play in his "style". Whether its 3 or 4 at the back, you can bet he wants high energy/ hard workers, defenders who can pass the ball, and strikers who link with wide men and midfielders to form triangles.

Personally, i am much more in camp 1 above - i decide on a system and i will shape my players and squad to fit that. Particularly in places like the Premier League, where the abundance of talent and riches means its not overly hard to go out and get players who fit your system. In more restricted settings, a different approach might be worth considering. When i manage, i want players who are good technically. If i get a physical beast through the ranks, or if one comes on the market and is a "bargain", i wont change my philosophy to accommodate. I will either try to develop the player in a different direction, or i will sell / pass on him.

Rather than the DNA thread, i would say the 451 thread from last year gives better examples of it working. Particularly the Hearts save section where i talked about season by season developing the squad, finding better, but importantly well suited players for my system.

Really look forward to reading about your approach - I would perhaps caution against calling it a "guide" if i am honest - If you are talking long term, then you will be dealing with scenarios which are likely to be quite specific to your save / team and others are not likely to hit identical situations. The key learning people can take is to look at your decision making process and perhaps apply the principles - Exactly the same as the great tactic threads, people who try to copy it fail and complain. People who look at the process, and apply it, succeed........

I would also perhaps disagree that a tactical guide can be short term at a high cost. You can have sustained success with either of the approaches i mentioned above, and there are plenty examples of people using one system for long periods of time and achieving ongoing success

[tmason122]

Thanks for the positive feedback so far!

I think its absolutely worth doing, infact id encourage you to just go ahead and write it up / post it rather than worrying whether people want it or not

A suppose a few thoughts come to mind.

Firstly, i think your absolutely right that squad development is as important as tactics both in football, and in Football Manager. There are, broadly speaking, 2 schools of thought / management when it comes to this topic:

1 - I have a system / way of playing, and i will develop my squad to best fit with that system.

2 - I have a squad of players at any given time, with differing strengths as time / seasons go by. I will develop my tactics to best fit the players at my disposal.

Neither is right or wrong. The very best, i suspect, combine the 2. When you take on a new job / club, the chances of the squad being perfectly balance to fit your footballing ideals / philosophy are slim. You can try and shoe horn your system onto existing players (how did that work out, Mr Van Gaal....) but really you are best served by a slow migration. Start with something which plays to your strengths as they are, and slowly build your squad to migrate towards your footballing ideal.

For me, when you think of this it is worth distinguishing "Tactics" from "Formation" - we get very hung up on "formation" at times. Everyone is wondering if Conte will now come in and play 3 at the back at Chelsea, because he won several titles at Juve that way and has Italy playing that way. There is no guarantee that he will play 3 at the back (infact, if you read up on some Conte quotes, you will see that playing 3 at the back started specifically when Juve signed Vidal, and Conte needed to fit 3 central midfielders into his lineup - Adopting his formation to suit his players). What Conte absolutely will do, is demand that Chelsea play in his "style". Whether its 3 or 4 at the back, you can bet he wants high energy/ hard workers, defenders who can pass the ball, and strikers who link with wide men and midfielders to form triangles.

Personally, i am much more in camp 1 above - i decide on a system and i will shape my players and squad to fit that. Particularly in places like the Premier League, where the abundance of talent and riches means its not overly hard to go out and get players who fit your system. In more restricted settings, a different approach might be worth considering. When i manage, i want players who are good technically. If i get a physical beast through the ranks, or if one comes on the market and is a "bargain", i wont change my philosophy to accommodate. I will either try to develop the player in a different direction, or i will sell / pass on him.

Rather than the DNA thread, i would say the 451 thread from last year gives better examples of it working. Particularly the Hearts save section where i talked about season by season developing the squad, finding better, but importantly well suited players for my system.

Really look forward to reading about your approach - I would perhaps caution against calling it a "guide" if i am honest - If you are talking long term, then you will be dealing with scenarios which are likely to be quite specific to your save / team and others are not likely to hit identical situations. The key learning people can take is to look at your decision making process and perhaps apply the principles - Exactly the same as the great tactic threads, people who try to copy it fail and complain. People who look at the process, and apply it, succeed........

I would also perhaps disagree that a tactical guide can be short term at a high cost. You can have sustained success with either of the approaches i mentioned above, and there are plenty examples of people using one system for long periods of time and achieving ongoing success

Cheers for the points there Jambo.

Yer I am aware of the 2 schools of thought on squad management. I used to be very much in the first school of thought, however recently I have moved away from that. Whilst it is always important to have an idea of what system you want to play, I now see my "system" as something that evolves through time as your squad changes. For example, I usually base my squad on a 4-3-3, however after losing a key player in that formation (for good money), rather than buy a a direct replacement for him, I decided to alter my tactics slightly to a 4-4-2 (a tactic I have never used in over 10 years of playing FM), to fit in a youthful striker who I felt I had the potential to be a match-winner just like the player who had left. Whilst it was a formation change, I was still playing similar football, I still liked to play out from the back, had pacey men on the wings, with extra width being provided by wingbacks and I had a good mix of creativity and defensive discipline through the middle. The result? It worked great, as I still played attractive football, secured the results, and also developed my squad and players further. Long-term this made more sense to me than just buying a like-for-like replacement.

I guess what I have in mind is somewhat different to your 451 thread, where you went season by season developing the squad, finding better, but importantly well suited players for the system. Instead I go season by season trying to develop my tactics in order to maximise the resourcefulness of my squad, only buying players to replace the old and ones that leave on big money. I like to try and develop average squad players (even players who are at their maximum potential) into something useful, so that they can be part of a sustained success with much the same team over time. A side effect of this is that it leads to the production of quite a few club icons and legends as many players that play for my side have prolonged careers with the club.

Fair point in the guide! I'll call it my memoirs or something, hahaha.

Yer, I perhaps over-generalised with the "short-term high cost" statement. What I meant to say is that often when FM managers settle on playing the 1 system you are perhaps more likely to go out buy the ideal players for the system, rather than be a bit fluid with your approach. At least that is my own experience in the game.

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

@tmason122

I'm still waiting for your case study. 

[tmason122]

 

56 minutes ago, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

@tmason122

I'm still waiting for your case study. 

As am I! Actually I do still want to write this, but have just been extremely busy over this half year. It is a project for the Christmas break! I am now in 2025 with this save, so there is quite a number of seasons to assess! So it is going to be quite a write-up. 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 16/06/2016 at 11:46, Jambo98 said:

Personally, i am much more in camp 1 above - i decide on a system and i will shape my players and squad to fit that.

Out of interest, did you ever kick on with FM16? Last I saw you had issues with it and moved on?