The High Press is too strong

[Kawee]

After literally hundreds of hours on FM16, I'm starting to strongly suspect that the high press defensive system is the strongest one in FM16, by far.

First of all, what is the high press? It's that Total Football method of defending by applying high closing down, high defensive line, and a small margins between each defensive line (very fluid system.) It's the combination of the deep press and the high block.

If you want to learn more about it, I highly recommend O-zil to the Arsenal's threads on Cruyff's Ajax and Sachhi's Milan, both using this defensive system.

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/458273-Arrigo-Sacchi-s-4-4-2-(Very-Fluid)

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/457703-Johan-Cruyff-s-3-4-3-Diamond-(Very-Fluid)/page2

Keep them in mind, as they're quite influential to how I came to this conclusion.

At first, I was not aware of these two threads. I was just playing my own game, using the high press, but with a slow possession based buildup style, using Arsenal. It gave me some ridiculous defensive results.

SEVEN goals conceded. That is quite ridiculous. All the while, scoring 100+ goals. I had a couple more seasons like this, conceding just 12 and 11 goals in the league.

Now at first, I thought I simply stumbled on a winning defensive combo. It makes sense that a high pressing system, combined with a possession-based build up that limits the opponents to 40% or less of the ball, can yield very good defensive results. Barcelona did alright with it. I can imagine a deep defensive system that relied on counter-attacking football pull off similar results, if maybe not the same attacking prowess.

What really changed my mind was O-zil to the Arsenal threads, and my own team's tactical evolution. Being an Arsenal fan just like him, I read up on his Arsenal Invincibles thread. That thread brought me to the two threads I mentioned above. Both of those tactics use the high press.

His Milan side went unbeaten as well, and in one season, conceded just EIGHT goals. His Ajax team was replicated by others, and enjoyed strong defensive performances along with powerful attack as well. You can go read the thread. They're highly successful. If nothing else, they're very educational threads, highly recommended.

So that got me thinking. The high press yields incredible defensive results, while still allowing for just as good attacking performances, both for a slow buildup style, and the mid-tempo mix-range-passing style employed by both the Milan and Ajax team. It has also worked with three different formations, my Arsenal 4-1-4-1, the Milan 4-4-1-1, and the Ajax 3-5-1-1 (plays like a 3-4-3 though.)

So, when I was considering how I'd evolve my current Arsenal save, I decided to go for a more "entertaining" style of football. I keep the high press and the 4-1-4-1 formation (because my squad is already built for it,) but I went with max tempo, direct passing, full width attacking style. So basically, a very adventurous style, which should, in theory, leave me vulnerable at the back. My possession % fell from 59% in the league, down to 50%-ish. However, my attack improved massively to this:

Averaging more than 4 goals per game, but still, only 20 goals conceded. This has fully bought me over to this belief that the high press is ridiculously strong. Disproportionately strong.

To me, it is overpowered for two reasons:

1. It can yield the best defensive results while costing very little in terms of attacking prowess, unlike a deep defensive tactic, where you "buy" defense and "pay" with a more limited attack.

2. It is very versatile. It can work with many different formations, and can obviously work with many different buildup styles.

Obviously, it is not a one size fit all. I don't think it'll work for every team. Getting the right players are still key (high stamina, workrate, etc) However, I do think that once your team have the right personel, it is by far the most productive system to employ.

[Giraffin]

Heya mate, I have been looking for a entertaining yet defensive stable tactic for a while now, and it seems like you struck gold! I am an huge Arsenal fan myself and I wonder if you mind sharing your tactic?

[herne79]

Congrats, very impressive results.

There's not much here in the way of tactical discussion yet, which I'm sure others might be quite interested in. So how about some tactical analysis rather than just sharing results? .

[bdixon]

I'm interested to see how you implemented the high press, I tend to find 'Close Down Much More' as more of a hindrance with players all closing down without much success, I tend to see a quick pass and 3/4 of my players with out of the game.

[axehan1]

Did you change your strategy in the 160 goals season?I know you went max tempo, passing and width in a very fluid system, was that with Standard strategy or did you go attacking too.

[Kawee]

Heya mate, I have been looking for a entertaining yet defensive stable tactic for a while now, and it seems like you struck gold! I am an huge Arsenal fan myself and I wonder if you mind sharing your tactic?

I might start a thread, but I want to keep this thread on the topic of the high press, and how it is probably too efficient. That's my main concern.

Congrats, very impressive results.

There's not much here in the way of tactical discussion yet, which I'm sure others might be quite interested in. So how about some tactical analysis rather than just sharing results? .

I'm not good at analytics. I'm not a good thread maker like some. That's why I suggested the threads above since my high press is very similar. My PIs and TIs are a bit different, but the result is very similar

I'm interested to see how you implemented the high press, I tend to find 'Close Down Much More' as more of a hindrance with players all closing down without much success, I tend to see a quick pass and 3/4 of my players with out of the game.

Take a look at the threads I mentioned above. Mine is similar, although not completely the same. Getting cut open by a long though ball is just something you have to live with, fortunately, when employing this system. The idea is to press the passer so they can rarely ever make such a pass. Fast defenders help too.

Did you change your strategy in the 160 goals season?I know you went max tempo, passing and width in a very fluid system, was that with Standard strategy or did you go attacking too.

I play standard mentality. Just changed my tempo to max, changed my width to max, and my passing more direct to mix. Also, a few PIs depending on the players I use.

[Giraffin]

I might start a thread, but I want to keep this thread on the topic of the high press, and how it is probably too efficient. That's my main concern.

I see, but I do hope you decide to share your tactic !

[James9]

Kawee very well written. I am intrested to know what players you are using for your 4141 with Arsenal and what roles and duty you give them. It would be good to know what you did with Ozil and what role and duty you gave him I tried to create a 4141 with Arsenal but did not know what to do with Ozil.

Could you post some more about your tactic and the roles on duty you are using, Personal Instructions and Team Instructions.

[shaunwwfc]

I can imagine a deep defensive system that relied on counter-attacking football pull off similar results, if maybe not the same attacking prowess.

Is there an example you have of this? Ie. What TIs, team shape and mentality???

[loklokno123]

I tried very high pressing system with my Bury side.

They were originally sat at the bottom in Championship .

They got no money, players were not good enough at League 1, not even in Championship.

I used 4-3-3 very fluid, max D-line, max closing down, using offside trap and tight marking . Used the simplest role, no playmaker.

The result surprised me.

I took them from 24th place to 7th place, just a few points behind the play-off spot .

High-pressing in fm16 is really effective and parking the bus isnt effective in 16.

Anyway ,conceding 20 goals is very very impressive.

[Anaconda Vice]

I tried very high pressing system with my Bury side.

They were originally sat at the bottom in Championship .

They got no money, players were not good enough at League 1, not even in Championship.

I used 4-3-3 very fluid, max D-line, max closing down, using offside trap and tight marking . Used the simplest role, no playmaker.

The result surprised me.

I took them from 24th place to 7th place, just a few points behind the play-off spot .

High-pressing in fm16 is really effective and parking the bus isnt effective in 16.

Anyway ,conceding 20 goals is very very impressive.

Check the Conte thread and see rashidi1's tactic. That works very well at absorbing pressure. Also his defensive formation in the community experiment is very good.

[Aizo4576]

I've always struggled with a high press this year. Not necessarily defensively, but attacking.

Playing a high press in Italy has often led to them overloading their own area and it becomes impossible to score

[loklokno123]

Check the Conte thread and see rashidi1's tactic. That works very well at absorbing pressure. Also his defensive formation in the community experiment is very good.

Yes. I checked that thread. Never been a fan of 3-5-2 but Conte really changed my mind. rashidi1's 3-5-2 is good but i would like to go fluid Very Fluid rather than structured.

[Sky]

I might start a thread, but I want to keep this thread on the topic of the high press, and how it is probably too efficient. That's my main concern.

I would like to see your team and tactics tbh. The game becomes really easy after about 3 seasons whether you sign players or not. I am in 2021 right now and at least 8 of my starting XI are regens, we are leading the league by about 11 points at the end of Feb, not as impressive as your record, but I'm just using my own 442 with high defensive line and hard tackling, lots of closing down, etc. That's the best strategy if you have a strong team and are at home. If you are doign the right things, ie snapping up the good young players and always building for the future, the game becomes easy.

[Giraffin]

Is this kinda the same tactic that you used on the "Wengerball" storyline? with improvments of course

[Kawee]

I would like to see your team and tactics tbh. The game becomes really easy after about 3 seasons whether you sign players or not. I am in 2021 right now and at least 8 of my starting XI are regens, we are leading the league by about 11 points at the end of Feb, not as impressive as your record, but I'm just using my own 442 with high defensive line and hard tackling, lots of closing down, etc. That's the best strategy if you have a strong team and are at home. If you are doign the right things, ie snapping up the good young players and always building for the future, the game becomes easy.

I agree, and that's part of the problem. Once you reach a certain level, high press just become the best system to employ due to it's effectiveness and versatility.

Is this kinda the same tactic that you used on the "Wengerball" storyline? with improvments of course

Actually yeah, I evolved from that tactic, once Wenger retired and I lost the motivation to roleplay.

[Mojam]

I to agree that the high press is the best system to employ on fm16. i created a tactic inspired by sampaoli and pochettino and it was brilliant. i demolished teams like man city and other top teams and won the Europa League in my fist season scoring 5 goals in the final. I was the manager of Spurs. I was interested in what formation you played to achieve your success. I created a 2-1-4-1-2.

[Overmars]

Okay, I'll be the doubter...I don't believe those results are legitimate. If you post your tactic, I guarantee most people who use it on their own saves will not achieve similar results. They may still win leagues, sure, but to go undefeated twice reeks of game manipulation. There are too many random crappy things that can happen over two seasons to spoil the perfection.

But I agree with the premise. It was true on FM15 too.

[Kawee]

I to agree that the high press is the best system to employ on fm16. i created a tactic inspired by sampaoli and pochettino and it was brilliant. i demolished teams like man city and other top teams and won the Europa League in my fist season scoring 5 goals in the final. I was the manager of Spurs. I was interested in what formation you played to achieve your success. I created a 2-1-4-1-2.

I think that's one of it's main strengths. It seems to be able to work with many tactics. You can use it with slow build up, mixed buildup, or direct buildup. It's just too versatile I think.

Okay, I'll be the doubter...I don't believe those results are legitimate. If you post your tactic, I guarantee most people who use it on their own saves will not achieve similar results. They may still win leagues, sure, but to go undefeated twice reeks of game manipulation. There are too many random crappy things that can happen over two seasons to spoil the perfection.

But I agree with the premise. It was true on FM15 too.

Plenty of people have gone two seasons unbeatean in a roll, on FM16 and previous FMs, me included. But not in this save though. If you look at the year, they're not consecutive.

Also, ten years into the game, it is so much easier. Too easy in fact. AI is horrible at building squads, and you can basically win with almost any half decent tactic due to far superior players.

You, or anyone else, shouldn't try to copy me anyway. That's not the point. Go start a new save, and create your own tactic using the high press. See for yourself.

[badmankg]

i swear theres never satisfaction with football manager for some people. you cant keep looking into everything being too efficient. your then have no tactics or instructions that never ever work.

[TCSSkin]

i swear theres never satisfaction with football manager for some people. you cant keep looking into everything being too efficient. your then have no tactics or instructions that never ever work.

Exactly. Last year people were complaining the High Press wasn't efficient enough, now it's too efficient.

[TheBigBoss]

I'd love to see this tactic to be honest

[lucatonix]

I wonder whether this is a problem of the high press being too efficient or of poor AI squad management/building so your Arsenal team is miles ahead of the opposition?

[Warrenwwr]

can confirm that even with smaller teams, high press is effective. used the same tactic from the national league to the premiership.

[Johnleegriffin]

playing as Liverpool, on an unbeaten run in my first season, i don't believe it.

and yes the results are legit with no major changes using the editor.

[Urbiscuit18]

playing as Liverpool, on an unbeaten run in my first season, i don't believe it.

and yes the results are legit with no major changes using the editor.

How does one does this with Liverpool's starting squad without save scumming?

[Johnleegriffin]

i made sure I had a good preseason with a game nearly every 4 days, I also train each player for the correct position they play in the tactic i use. trust me i had no 'save scumming'

I also know this team inside out and made some good quality signings.

I have uploaded my tactic

http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php/457241-Liverpool-4-4-1-1-home-and-away-tactic

[T1mberz]

Hello Kawee, Is there a chance you could post your tactic? I read through the two links you referenced, and have not been able to come close to replicating the results you're showing. It really looks amazing.

Thank you in advance!

[Powello]

This type of tactic works for pretty much any team that are better than the opponents. I have run some tests in multiple leagues and levels, once with the team thats predicted to finish bottom and once with the team predicted to win the league. The team thats predicted to finish bottom get smashed whereas the team expected to win the league romps it. You don't need to edit players for it to work. The main thing is you need high team work, stamina, pace, acceleration and anticipation.

I created this utterly ridiculous tactic with my amazing united side just to see how it would get on. It was a bit of fun, and I didn't expect it to do any good because of the lack of defence.

image upload no resize

But in the first game it got this result

pic host

As you can see below, my team basically camped in their half. Now I know I have a very good team, but you would expect long balls over the top or through balls in general to completly anihilate me, but because I have 2 defenders in the DM slot with good attributes I mentioned above, they tend to be good enough to cut most of them out.

upload image online

As I said, I have tried this with much weaker sides of different levels and the results are the same, just a few more goals concede the lower down the leagues you go, which is fair enough as the players aren't mentally gifted like the higher level players.

[Dean_Winchester]

Do does T.Is work on FM15 too or just on FM16 ? Anyone know what works on FM15 (I'm still on that version) ?