Boblardo's 4-1-4-1 Adventure

[boblardo]

After uninstalling the game, Again!, I have returned with a renewed determination

I have re-read a number of the sticky posts to help get an understanding

Formation

I really like the 4-1-4-1, I have used it for a number of versions now and believe I understand how it plays

GK - SK(s) - Its likely I will be pushing up so a sweeper keeper is essential

LB - FB(s) - Support the Winger who will be attacking the byline

DC - CB(d)

DC - CB(d)

RB - WB(s) - Overlap the RM who will be cutting inside. i did look at WB(a) here but there were too many PI's some which were not appropriate so chose WB(s) and added, get further forward & Cross from byline

DM - DMC(d)

LM - W(a) - Winger

MCL - CM(a) - Considering Move Into Channels here. This guy needs to be another one of my goal threats. PI's selected Close Down More

MCR - CM(s) - Have consider a DLP(s) and an AP(s) here but going with a CM(s) at the moment. As i have quite an aggressive right hand side I want him to help cover the WM(a) who will taking up a central position and the WB(s) who will be getting forward.

RM - WM(a) - Need this guy to be a goal threat. Also want him to make room on the outside for my overlapping WB, cut inside, sit narrower, Close Down More

ST - DLF(s) - Close Down More

Mentality

I am a little unsure of the mentality at the moment so will need to experiment a little. On the surface the 4-1-4-1 is quite a defensive formation so I could go Control but some of the roles mean I may need to lower this. For now I will start with Standard

Shape

Some advice here would be great; some of the guides indicate that the less "Specialist" Roles you have the more fluid you need to be. My understanding is that the more fluid the shape, the more Creative Freedom given to players. This also brings them closer together. Structured reduces creative freedom and spreads the players out a little. As I don't have any specialist roles I am leaning towards fluid but I don't want too much creative freedom so this makes me consider structured. As I am unsure I will choose Flexible for now.

Team Instructions

Some of these will change depending on the game but my core ones are;

Whipped Crosses - I have players attacking the box who get on the end of a whipped cross (CM(a), WM(a)) but also one or two players who can follow up in a secondary wave (DLF, CM(s))

Push Higher Up - With a DM the Defensive Live is dropped a little so this just pushes it back up again

Dribble Less - I don't want my players running with the ball

There are others I am considering but I think these are mostly situational ie Short Passing/More Direct Passing, Work Ball Into Box, Play out of defence

I am currently working through pre season and will feedback later. In the meantime can anyone spot any obvious flaws with the setup?

[harryleechinyeow]

I had a similar set up in one of my saves, where there are no designated playmaker, and a DLF(s) up front.

What I realised was that, since the DLF(s) has the More Risky Passes PI, he becomes the 'playmaker'. He received the ball a lot, and are often direct hoofed balls. Something like Target Man (S), but slightly less direct.

Needless to say, most of those balls were intercepted, and that team wasn't great possession wise. That is of course no TIs like shorter passing or retain possession are activated.

[boblardo]

First game saw me up against Eastbourne Borough; They started out with a 3-1-3-1-2 Formation.

The front three were likely to be an issue, the AMC was an Advanced Playmaker so I set an OI of Close Down - Always and for the strikers set an OI of Tight Marking - Always. The idea here was to stop the AMC attempting through balls early and if he did manage to do it then my DC's would be close to the Strikers and could intercept.

We got off to a great start scoring early to lead 1-0 and while the Match Stats indicated that we creating a bunch of chances they weren't good chances. At Half Time we were 1-0 up have created 10 with just 4 on target.

During half time I added Play out of defence and work ball into box with the intention of having a little more control in our play. We scored early in the second half to go 2-0 up

Eastbourne pulled one back shortly after and after reviewing I put it down to an error by my RB

Eastbourne Goal Phase 1

We have a decent shape here although there is a HUGE gap in the Left Back area, Eastbourne quickly exploit this space

Eastbourne Goal Phase 2

Even now we still have a good shape although Gorman my LB should maybe getting out quicker to close down the winger!!!

Eastbourne Goal Phase 3

A good cross is misjudged by my RB and Eastbourne score to make it 2-1

We go on to score 2 further goals and win 4-1 which is a great start.

Our changes had the desired effect with our shots ratio going from 10/4 - 16/8

A WIP and plenty still to do in terms of reviewing the match but I am pleased with the result. Our first goal came from our LW hitting the byline and sending in a cross which was finished by the WM(a). Our 4th goal was scored by the CM(a) so both those aspects are positives.

The huge gap on the left hand side is a concern and something to keep an eye on

[Beren]

Hi,

I'm not a tactical guru so I'm afraid I won't come with brilliant suggestions.

I'd like to ask why did you choose the DM-D and not another role in that position. I'm interested because I too am experimenting with a 4-1-4-1 and want to have different opinions in order to make the right decisione here.

Talking about the shape of your tactic, I can say that if you want to have your players closer such as in a Fluid formation, but don't want to give much creative freedom, why don't you try Fluid with a TI of Be More Disciplined? It should cut off the unwanted narcissisms, shouldn't it?

[Rashidi]

Ok your formation and roles chosen are excellent. You may a challenge with duties, though the pushed up dline does help. Your choice to minimise shouts is near brilliant, cos you will be able to tell whats wrong quickly.

I have one suggestion. The lone man forward is playing as support, so those (A) duties are going to attack...why don't you pay attention to how the lone forward is working with the team. I have a similar system and its a dominator. My lone forward was different. I used him to take advantage of those two surging forward.

You are soooooo close..to a damn near perfect 4141.

What you need to think about is passing - Do you use the shout or PIs. Then ask yourself another question - how do you keep the ball getting up to your biggest threats consistently? What can you do to make sure this happens?

You system will be able to handle all kinds of attacks thrown at it. You are close, don't fall under the notion that you need to set a specific mentality.shape combination for all matches. Think about how it can be used in one game with different mentalities. I like this tactic.

[Rashidi]

DLF can still work, just make sure that you choose the right role for the right player

[boblardo]

@Rashidi - thanks for the feedback, certainly some food for thought.

I am considering some PI's for the Left FB assuming he has the attributes. As the W(a) & CM(a) are usually marauding forward my thinking is to give this player PI's of More Direct Passes & More Risky Passes (But as I say will depend on attributes). With the CM(s), maybe More Risky Passes would be good here too, especially as he has 3 good passing options in front of him

In the Eastbourne game I felt we were wasting chances so at Half Time I added Pass out of defence and work ball into box which reduced the number of chances but they were at least better chances

maybe if a team is attacking me, its worth thinking about changing to counter and using Pass into Space and More Direct Passing TI's in an attempt to exploit the space behind.

[boblardo]

I do have a player who has the perfect attributes for a target man, I might give this role a go. If I can get the team to get the ball forward quickly to the TM who can then knock the ball down for the CM(a) & WM(a) it could be a winner, thoughts?

[Beren]

You must be aware that the players who will be entrusted to pass/launch the ball forward to the target man should have high marks in attributes such as decision, vision, passing, technique, because I've seen that with a target man all of your players will try to get the ball to him every time they've got it on their feet. Even goalkeeper and centre backs will try long balls forward and if they're not very accurate, the result will be a lot of turnovers.

[MarchColorDrink]

Won't changing from standard to counter will implicitly lead to more direct play?

Pass in to space sounds like a good idea. Tempted to test in my own, very similar, tactic.

[Rashidi]

Won't changing from standard to counter will implicitly lead to more direct play?

Pass in to space sounds like a good idea. Tempted to test in my own, very similar, tactic.

Then why don't you tell some of the players to play it short so only the key players play direct? Not much of an issue.

[boblardo]

Small Update;

Game v Bishops Stortford

Changed my DLF(s) to DLF(a) - he was ineffective although we did 1-0

Game v Gosport

Changed from Standard to Counter & Flexible to Structured. Only TI change was to change the defensive line to Push Much Higher Up. We won 1-0 with my DLF(a) scoring

[MarchColorDrink]

Then why don't you tell some of the players to play it short so only the key players play direct? Not much of an issue.

Naturally. My angle was rather regarding boblardo changing from standard to counter as well adding pass into space + more direct. Changing to counter alone would lead to more direct, but perhaps a bit redundant?

[boblardo]

My next two games were completely different;

v Bath, won 2-0 and dominated no changes made

v Sutton, No changes made but they totally outplayed us they had 9 shots /3 on target to our 2 shots none on target. they were dominating possession too so my thinking at half time was to change to control, short passing, play out of defence and work ball into box. I removed the push higher up ti

it seemed to have the desired effect, we started to control possession. they scored due to a mistake by my CD who missed an interception so likely player error. overall in the Second half they had 4 shots 2 on target we had 3 shots with 2 on target so much better

[boblardo]

I have evolved my setups so Inow have two tactics;

A 4-1-4-1 Counter/Very Fluid.

GK - SK(s) -

LB - FB(s) -

DC - CB(d)

DC - CB(d)

RB - WB(s) - Get further forward & Cross from byline

DM - DMC(d)

LM - W(a) -

MCL - CM(a) - Close Down More

MCR - CM(s) -

RM - WM(a) - cut inside, sit narrower, Shoot less often, Close Down More

ST - DLF(a) - Close Down More

To balance the Creative Freedom, be more disciplined was selected. Also have the following selected;

Whipped Crosses

Push Higher Up

Dribble Less

Play Wider

My other setup;

A 4-1-4-1 Control/Structured

GK - SK(s)

LB - FB(s)

DC - CB(d)

DC - CB(d)

RB - WB(s) - Get further forward & Cross from byline

DM - DMC(d)

LM - W(a) -

MCL - CM(a) - Close Down More

MCR - CM(s) -

RM - WM(a) - cut inside, sit narrower, Shoot less often, Close Down More

ST - DLF(s) - Close Down More

TI's selected;

Play out of defence

Work Ball Into Box

Whipped Crosses

Push Higher Up

Play Wider

I am mainly using the counter/very fluid setup and will often just add Retain Possession if I am winning. I switch to the control tactic if I am losing the possession battle

Currently sitting 2nd, with 2 defeats. My WM(a), CM(a) and DLF are topping the goal scoring charts. My CM(s) is getting his fair share too from the follow ups.

[MrMourinho]

Hi

I manage Chelsea and I play a tactic that reminds of yours 4-1-4-1. I have one question, how was your thought process when you come up with counter/very fluid and control/structured? I also have two tactics but I have counter/structured and control/fluid.

[trajano080]

If you want to use very fluid or fluid, but you are afraid of the creative freedom, you can use fluid/very fluid and turn on be more disciplined.

[boblardo]

And so the frustration sets in again....

An unexpected promotion in my first season was a pleasant surprise and I managed to retain most of the players that got us up. The board increased our wage budge which allowed for a couple of extra additions to come in and we finished a respectable 12th

The following season saw the board slash our wage budget so much that we were over before we even tried to renew contracts or sign anyone. This led to most of our top performers leaving just so we could get enough players in to have a squad but obviously the quality is a little poorer

Now my tactic seems to have completely stopped working, the perception is that EVERY shot by the opposition ends up in a goal.

Can anyone offer any advice here, I was really enjoying the game now I am just about ready to quit again!!!

[herne79]

Two days ago you were 2nd in the league which I assume led to promotion.

12th the following season and now struggling following a financial crisis and many of your top players leaving.

You have a decent tactic, yet you think it's the tactic that may have stopped working. Perhaps because of the speed you are playing at you are simply ahead of where your team are currently capable of playing, in which case you may need to adapt.

[boblardo]

@herne79 - it was late, I was frustrated, your answer is clearly the correct one thanks for taking the time to respond

I assume its small changes that are required rather than a mass over haul?

[herne79]

lol no worries .

Small changes are often the best changes. You know you have a decent system, you're just suffering a bit now because of the step up in quality of opposition and the loss of several key players.

Perhaps just a change or two to player duties or adjusting the odd TI is all you'll need. Also have a think about how teams are playing against you - are they quite aggressive? Is that leaving space for you to exploit?

[boblardo]

After a run of games which saw 2 wins 5 losses and 1 draw a change was required

I changed my Left FB(s) to WB(s) and my left W(a) to W(s). My right WB(s) changed to FB(s)

Counter / Structured - Play Wider, Retain Possession, Push Higher Up, Work Ball Into Box, Dribble Less & Higher Tempo

Next 4 games 0 goals conceded, 2 wins 2 draws.

so a nice solid base to build from, need a little more potency but small steps and all!!

[burdinho]

I think theres a bit of misunderstanding amongst people who don't read these forums very often, that Structured (or even Highly) leads to dull, predictable, back to front football. It can simplify the game somewhat, particularly at the lower levels, and still lead to some really good football because your attacking/creative players are focused on what they're best at, and same for defenders.

[boblardo]

so my 4-1-4-1 is now quite stable until the AI decides to go Attacking.

2-0 up after 20 minutes 5 shots 5 on 5 target AI 1 shot. AI goes attacking and BOOM they dominate from that point. I somehow win the game 2-1 but AI up to 19 shots 10 on target and I manage 3 long shots for the rest of the game

Nothing I did seemed to stem the flow

I tried going attacking, retain possession, narrower i have tried counter, more direct passing, higher tempo

Any ideas?

[MarchColorDrink]

so my 4-1-4-1 is now quite stable until the AI decides to go Attacking.

2-0 up after 20 minutes 5 shots 5 on 5 target AI 1 shot. AI goes attacking and BOOM they dominate from that point. I somehow win the game 2-1 but AI up to 19 shots 10 on target and I manage 3 long shots for the rest of the game

Nothing I did seemed to stem the flow

I tried going attacking, retain possession, narrower i have tried counter, more direct passing, higher tempo

Any ideas?

How ate they creating chances? I play a similar tactic (perhaps slightly more conservative) and at times this happends to me too. Especially when up against something like 4-2-3-1. I go narrower, man mark their forward (at least if he's good at heading), keep shape. Then they will resort to crosses from the fullbacks and I grind it out hoping for a counter.

[boblardo]

I seemed to hit a plateau where after a decent run I went on a terrible run and couldn't get out it. I left Maidenhead at the end of the season out of frustration and joined Stockport in the division below

Took a few days off, reread the forums and made some changes so I now have the following setup

4-1-4-1

GK - GK(D)

LB - FB(s)

DC - CB(d)

DC - CB(d)

RB - LB(s)

DM - DMC(d)

LM - W(a)

MCL - CM(a) - Close Down More

MCR - CM(s) - Hold Position

RM - WM(a) - cut inside, sit narrower, Shoot less often, Close Down More

ST - DF(s)

Only have 1 default TI which is Whipped Crosses

The only thing that changes is my approach to games. When I am an overwhelming favourite and I expect teams to sit deep against me i start counter\Fluid and push the DLine up. If I am the underdogs then I start Standard\Structured and keep the DLine as default. When its close a standard\flexible approach is taken and i watch the game to see how it plays out and make changes appropriately.

With this approach I am 2nd, P6 W4, D1 L1

No doubt there will be a time where I come up against teams that massively outclass me so I need to consider either a counter\structured approach or a control\structured

[boblardo]

I have been quiet on the forums recently but have since pushed my ML to AML(Ws) and MR to AMR (IFa).  This small change has seen just one defeat in 16.  4-14-1 is great but pushing the wide players up gives the overall tactic extra impotus

[pocketspace]

Why are you using a LFB in the LB slot?

I have myself built a 4-1-4-1 dystem (probably my favorite formation) that looks similar to yours in terms of roles.

[boblardo]

I lost interest in my original game, I suppose that's what happens when you join a club you have no attachment too and besides it turned into an Instant Result game which isn't really reflective of the tactic!

So i have gone back to the beginning and started with Maidenhead United.

I have remained true to my favoured 4-1-4-1 formation;

Formation

The intention is to remain solid and I want my main goal threats to come from the DF(s), WM(a) and the CM(a)

And have used the following TI's

Team Instructions

When playing teams that I feel are weaker than me I stay structured, for tougher games I go Fluid.  If I start losing early on or need to grab a goal I switch to Attacking

TI Logic

Higher Tempo - I don't want players dwelling on the ball for too long
Fairly Wide - We have a DM, CM, CM triangle so can be a little bolder in our width.  Also Counter naturally brings us narrower so this negates that.  This is one TI that I may turn on/off depending on the formation of the other teams!
Slightly Higher - Again Counter drops the DM Line and having a player in the DM Role also drops the DM line a little so this TI again should help here

Player Instructions

RB - FB(s) - Stay Wider - The WM(a) in front of him is asked to sit narrower so this gives us a little more width on the right hand side
LB - FB(s) - Sit narrower - The W(s) will naturally stay wider and with the CM(a) is expected to push forward, this should give us some support on the left hand side
RMC - CM(s) - Hold Position - The CM(a) and WM(a) will be bombing up field so I need this guy to stay in position as much as possible.  Might consider adding tackle harder, attributes allowing
LMC - CM(a) - Move Into Channels - one of my goal threats I want him running beyond the opposition defence
RM - WM(a) - Dribble Less, Sit Narrower, Cut Insider with Ball, Cross Less Often - goal threat 2 sometimes up with the striker sometimes running from deep
CF - DF(s) - Move into channels - Goal threat 3

Some Considerations

In formations that use AML & AMR roles i might consider the PI Tight Marking on my full backs.  Counter gets my attacking players using short passing so I might give one or two the More Direct Passing PI.  Finally, can I be more adventurous with W(s) and make him a W(a)?

After 10 games I am top of the table, 7 Wins 1 Draws 3 Defeats.  My defeats have been by the odd goal, some from set pieces and a few from player mistakes  My top scorers are the CM(a) and WM(a), with the DF(s) coming in 3rd.

So overall my tactic is playing out how I want it too, there is still some improvements to be had but this will need some game by game analysis and probably some dealings in the transfer market.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

I'm confused, Rashidi's come on and said you're not far off an almost perfect 4-1-4-1 and you've kind of uprooted the tactic at times to switch about with mentality and fluidity rather than focusing on what he was hinting at. (And I have no idea what he was hinting at! But it's probably important and staring at you in the face.)

[boblardo]

I haven't changed too much, some ti's and the odd pi

Also I do change the mentality/shape occassionally

I am struggling with the ST position, they have contributed to the goals scored column but have only just got into double figures!

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Fair enough, though I thought generally in a one striker system, the striker is less about goals and more about team ethic. Because in general he would be less inclined to lead the line and be more of a support striker. So as long as he is keeping the team ticking over with his support play, you won't need to worry too much about the GF column?

[boblardo]

An unexpected run of injuries saw both my DM's sidelined and with my Yth player not quite up to scratch a change was needed

Moved the DM to the CM strata with a CM(d) role so at the moment have a 4-5-1 formation also removed the push higher up TI.

This is new territory for me a little so any tips or comments would be appreciated!

[Ceching You Out]

On 9/20/2016 at 04:31, boblardo said:

An unexpected run of injuries saw both my DM's sidelined and with my Yth player not quite up to scratch a change was needed

Moved the DM to the CM strata with a CM(d) role so at the moment have a 4-5-1 formation also removed the push higher up TI.

This is new territory for me a little so any tips or comments would be appreciated!

One small tip -- moving the DM up a strata will give you a slightly higher defensive line than before. Depending on the athleticism of your DCs, that could change your approach.

[boblardo]

On 7/6/2016 at 17:31, Rashidi said:

Ok your formation and roles chosen are excellent. You may a challenge with duties, though the pushed up dline does help. Your choice to minimise shouts is near brilliant, cos you will be able to tell whats wrong quickly.

I have one suggestion. The lone man forward is playing as support, so those (A) duties are going to attack...why don't you pay attention to how the lone forward is working with the team. I have a similar system and its a dominator. My lone forward was different. I used him to take advantage of those two surging forward.

You are soooooo close..to a damn near perfect 4141.

What you need to think about is passing - Do you use the shout or PIs. Then ask yourself another question - how do you keep the ball getting up to your biggest threats consistently? What can you do to make sure this happens?

You system will be able to handle all kinds of attacks thrown at it. You are close, don't fall under the notion that you need to set a specific mentality.shape combination for all matches. Think about how it can be used in one game with different mentalities. I like this tactic.

I have pretty much kept the lone striker as a DLF(s) which has been quite successful

I use either control/fluid or counter/fluid depending on the opposition.  When using control I have short passing selected and then put more direct passing onto the CM(s) and also select More risky passes.  My W(a) becomes a W(s) and we drop the DL

For counter/fluid I use more direct passing and my CM(s) has a PI of more risky passes

Both FB's have fewer risky passes as they were needlessly punting it up field.

Against a 4-4-2 i have noticed that moving both fb to FB(a) and the w & wm to W(s) & WM(s) respectively makes us a little more of a threat

[alanschu14]

On 7/12/2016 at 05:28, herne79 said:

lol no worries .

Small changes are often the best changes. You know you have a decent system, you're just suffering a bit now because of the step up in quality of opposition and the loss of several key players.

Perhaps just a change or two to player duties or adjusting the odd TI is all you'll need. Also have a think about how teams are playing against you - are they quite aggressive? Is that leaving space for you to exploit?

To echo this in my road to EPL, I had a solid 4-1-2-3 DM formation that worked very well in CH League that let me win the league quite handily.

WIth the promotion to EPL I brought in new players and didn't expect to do very well but hoped I could stay up.  I didn't have a lot of team instructions and just had "Counter" with Retain Possession so we played a patient game on offense.  But after losing 4 of my first 5 games I was panicking. I had a game against Everton and I said to myself "I just want to draw" and just pulled back my attacking players so they were now support/defend and set my mentality to Defensive.  No other changes as I figured I'd "park the bus."

Ended up getting a 1-0 win with a goal on a counterattack.  Ended up winning 4 of my next 5, and 6 of my next 9 while not losing any in that game. (!!!!)  Suddenly things were looking up.  I think part of this might also have been "teams see I'm playing terrible and they are pushing the play and this helps my weaker team endure that."  I actually kept this tactic for most of the season and with some player growth (my team average age was like 24), I plugged a few holes in my line up that were under performing in the January transfer window and managed an 11th place finish and an assurance of "LOADS OF MONEEEEY" hahaha.

But I don't feel my tactic changed all that much. I mostly just changed 3 or 4 duties to be more conservative and wanted the team to keep it's defensive shape and it seemed to work pretty well for me.  I did have a small issue where I noticed my F9 was often punting the ball from long range (because my wingers were on support and he'd get isolated) but a lot of the time I was either "I'm not too bothered by this" at first, but then eventually felt more confident having a MC or the W start to play attacking roles to give him a bit more support.

And apologies too all that have seen me write this a lot but that whole season is basically what caused me to be addicted to this damn game because it *FINALLY* felt like I was making appropriate decisions and understanding what the roles/mentalities were doing on the pitch!