Tactic creator needs to show weaknesses and strengths of the tactic

[FootballManager89]

This would be so huge for me and those who know nothing about soccer tactics if there was a bar rating of how well my tactic covers the pitch or how well the roles combine or do together. The weaknesses and strengths of the tactic. Would this make football manager too easy? I dont think so because its hard enough as it is for the average user. If I could get any kind of feedback on my tactic as soon as I make it that would be huge. Whether it comes in form of bar ratings or my assistant saying something like your tactic is weak here etc.

What do you guys think about something like this? Because I have been struggling to make a tactic probably because I know nothing about soccer yet am learning each day but the game is just too hard tactically speaking for casual fans who like the game more than actual soccer.

 

Also if the tactic creator could show which positions are the goal scorers that would be great. it would make it easy for me to get my lone center forward to be the main goal threat. Instead I find that my wingers score more than my center forward:/

[Fatoslaf]

I agree that there needs to be some extra information on tactics. I must admit that I as a long time player still don't know how to make a proper tactic. Every year I try again hoping I will figure it out, but soon I get discouraged and just pick a good tactic from the forums. As someone who has never played football, I get what it means when you give the instruction 'Exploit the middle': your attacking players will go through the middle of the pitch. But a few question pop in my mind that I still don't have answers for after all these years: what does this instruction mean for my wingers? Are they useless now? Does this mean my pitch gets smaller? What is the effect of this?

Also I just have no idea what team shape, player roles and mentality to pick, other then if i'm better I attack, if i'm worse I defend. This comes down to the same problem that I just don't know how these functions influence the game.

An indicator of weaknesses and strengths of tactics would be nice. Another option might be to be able to ask your assistent for a report on how your tactic matches up against your opponents tactic. This might make the game too easy for some but for it will give a better insight in what your tactic does. 

It might also help if there was some kind of tactics manual with descriptions and examples on how different mentalities/instructions/roles influence the game.

 

[Kenco]

I'm not sure this would be a good idea.  For me, the way to judge whether a tactic is good or not is by watching it play out on the pitch.  This is how real managers do it and it makes sense that this is how it works in the game.

Also, a strong tactic against one team might not be strong against another or may still result in losing matches.  But users will flood the forum saying "my tactic is strong, so why am I still losing?"  Having an indicator will not help you learn, it will just make you tweak things until you get a "Good" indicator without you learning why you are tweaking it or what those tweaks do.

Also, how does the tactic know who the goalscorer will be?  There are many more factors which affect this, notably including the opposition you are facing and the players you are picking and their PPMs.  I've played the same tactic for 2 seasons - the first season my right midfielder was top scorer, but this season my striker is top, closely followed by my left midfielder, AMC is third and MR is down in 4th.  No changes to tactics.

The best way of learning how tactics work together is probably to use FM Touch as you don't need to worry about familiarity.  Start with a very basic tactic, don't overload instructions or fancy player roles and then just play through pre-season.

[Egecann]

When you succeed with the current creator it is much more satisfying. But this idea can be a good thing in touch mode. 

[forameuss]

1 hour ago, Egecann said:

When you succeed with the current creator it is much more satisfying. But this idea can be a good thing in touch mode. 

This pretty much.  I can see the logic behind the request, but you're essentially wanting something that makes the game easier.  I can see it being popular in the full version, but it's a trainer effectively, something which takes the stuff that the game expects you to work on and get good at, and just gives you the answer.  That's not something core FM should ever do.

By all means put it as an FMT unlockable though.

[FootballManager89]

Wouldn't the tactic if made in fmt translate to regular version of fm? Then that kind of defeats the point of putting it only in fm touch? Either way there needs to be some feedback i think on my tactic when made because like the average fm user i struggle with making a half decent tactic. I'm not asking the tactic creator to just give me a super tactic but atleast something appropriate for my team.

[Cougar2010]

How are you expecting FM telling you the strengths & weaknesses of a setup?

 

Every formation/tactic has inherent stronger & weaker points but it also needs to be compared against the opposition you are facing.  I could maybe see something basic being introduced but most of the advice would be obvious such as for example:

433 - Strong through the middle, weak against width.

451 - Strong in midfield, weak up front if lone front man becomes isolated.

 

I'm not sure you would be able to get FM telling you much more than that tbh and even the above would maybe be simply a tag added to each default formation.

[FootballManager89]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

How are you expecting FM telling you the strengths & weaknesses of a setup?

 

Every formation/tactic has inherent stronger & weaker points but it also needs to be compared against the opposition you are facing.  I could maybe see something basic being introduced but most of the advice would be obvious such as for example:

433 - Strong through the middle, weak against width.

451 - Strong in midfield, weak up front if lone front man becomes isolated.

 

I'm not sure you would be able to get FM telling you much more than that tbh and even the above would maybe be simply a tag added to each default formation.

I would think they would be able to do it by having some kind of rating of the tactic which could be optional. And it could have a margin of error depending on your scouts tactical knowledge. I really think it could be coded in and if they dont do it this way they need to have some tactical feedback i would think for a tactic. I would definitely pay like 5 bucks for an addon that critiqued my tactic for the match engine. Or helped teach me more about creating tactics. I tried reading cleons stuff but i still don't know fully understand the tactical creator. I have made a decent tactic but I don't know how to create a tactic from scratch depending on my clubs dna. Thats what would make this game more fun if each year i knew how to make a new tactic tailored specifically for my team.

[theopert]

It depends what market Football Manager wants to cater for.

I fit into the general type market than a specialised type market.

No mentality, fluidity, roles, duties. Team instruction board with how well the team can play the instructions stated on the instruction buttons, player instruction board with how well the player can play the instructions stated on the instruction buttons. The team and player instructions should be separate from each other but complement each other in a way that doesn't overdose or underdose the instructions.

Jigsaw puzzles have separate pieces that go together that don't overdose or underdose the puzzle.

Sport and especially professional sport is about maximising your own strengths and minimising your own weaknesses, and maximising your opposition's weaknesses and minimising your opposition's strengths.

What's also needed is a description of the action to be performed with it's usefulness...

Example,

Instruction: Pass Into Space

Effect: Passes the ball into space for the intended receiver to run onto.

Useful: When playing against a team with less pace than your own.

Risk: High

Instruction: Pass To Player

Effect: Passes the ball to the intended receiver.

Useful: When playing against a team with more pace than your own.

Risk: Low

The basic math table and basic colour combinations are my performance envelope so I look for those elements in games, products, and life.

I'm a simple man from a simple world in a complex world and complex people.

[Stretcheddie]

How about more specific advice such as "Teams are finding too much space between our wing backs and centre halves, consider pulling the wing backs to the full back positions or changing their mentality." Or "The opposition are known for sitting very deep against teams of a stature similar to ours and we may struggle to break them down. Consider dropping your attackers deeper to try and draw players out of position."

I dont believe for for a second that most professional club managers make every tactical decision alone without counsel and input from their assistants and there is scope for the level of advice could go deeper. It could also really help people learn they why and how of tactical decisions.

[pheelf]

On 7/28/2016 at 15:55, FootballManager89 said:

This would be so huge for me and those who know nothing about soccer tactics if there was a bar rating of how well my tactic covers the pitch or how well the roles combine or do together. The weaknesses and strengths of the tactic. Would this make football manager too easy? I dont think so because its hard enough as it is for the average user. If I could get any kind of feedback on my tactic as soon as I make it that would be huge. Whether it comes in form of bar ratings or my assistant saying something like your tactic is weak here etc.

What do you guys think about something like this? Because I have been struggling to make a tactic probably because I know nothing about soccer yet am learning each day but the game is just too hard tactically speaking for casual fans who like the game more than actual soccer.

 

Also if the tactic creator could show which positions are the goal scorers that would be great. it would make it easy for me to get my lone center forward to be the main goal threat. Instead I find that my wingers score more than my center forward:/

Even though I don't agree with your solution of a 'rate my tactic' sort of metric in the game I understand your frustration. I've always thought that a picture is worth a 1000 words and I feel the tactic creator needs to move towards a more visual representation than is currently available. As it stands you have a flat 2D view (+boxes) with a formation and roles which show the defensive shape of your team (well not really but that's what we're told). Then all you have is text explaining (often vaguely) what the players generic role is going to do although it can prove next to useless as if you use PIs or TIs which override certain aspects which the player needs to perform the role well the player can behave very differently than written in the description. Add in the bucketload of different PPMs and you have a real mess on your hands.

Instead what I'd like to see is something akin to what used to be in Championship Manager where you could click a segment of the pitch and it would show you how your team would look with and without the ball (I wouldn't want the ability to alter their position though). That way you could see your attacking and defensive shape more clearly which would lead to better decision making when constructing tactics. You would also have a clear idea of how your team is setup BEFORE you send them out on the pitch which is something a coach WOULD know from training and training matches contrary to what Kenco said. Hoping to learn how 'good' or 'bad' your tactic is from the match engine isn't the smartest of approaches and what makes it even more nonsensical is that it's NOT how real managers operate at all. Besides if you haven't got the foggiest idea how something works to start with how exactly do you know what changes to make anyway and whether poor performances are being caused by the tactic in the first place when there are so many other factors to consider in a match environment? 

All of this could be done with a live 3D or isometric view of the tactic which would really help people to construct coherent tactics as they could see directly what affect turning this or that TI on or changing a certain role would make to how they attack and defend. At the moment it feels like you have to spend hours in the match engine to have a clear understanding of how your tactic works which is silly as setting up a tactic should be one of the easiest aspects of the game. This isn't about 'casual' vs 'hardcore' gamers and instead should be looked at the same way as any other game (chess for e.g.), easy to pick up but hard to master. The challenge shouldn't arise from having a poor understanding of what on earth is happening on the pitch but the AI out maneuvering you at the highest levels of competition (much like real life which it seeks to simulate).

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.