Klopp's Madness- looking to create Liverpool under Jurgen

[TheJanitor]

Introduction

As a liverpool fan, I'm constantly trying to emulate the way the reds play and tactical trends they showcase on every version of the since my first FM (which was FM08). When ever I play with Liverpool, I always start with creating something that fits the current coach philosophy. Okay so we have played some bad football during this time but even through Hodgeson's time with us I tried to create a 4-4-2 that looked to his impressive Fulham side as an inspiration. On last year's game, I've started a 3-6-1 box thread that quickly evolved into a 3-4-3 based on Brendan Rodgers side that improve massively after a horrible start to the season. The results I got were good and the football was pleasing. This year however, much like Rodgers, I didn't have the same luck. Maybe it was due to the mayhem going in Liverpool, with the club replacing BR midway through the season with Jurgen Klopp, but I've struggled to get started every time I tried playing with my beloved Liverpool. Yes, when he was announced there were a lot of people trying to fit Liverpool's current squad into the famous Dortmund 4-2-3-1 formation, but I always felt like Liverpool will never be like Klopp's Dortmund. Like every coach, he is maturing and adapting to different challenges everytime, and considering how every Mourinho side is different and how Bayern under Guardiola was different from his Barcelona side, I felt like it would be pointless to try and replicate a different team (no I have forgot the Fulham 4-4-2 remark, but give me a break, Klopp is not the same as Hodgeson ). I feel like this season we will see what Liverpool's identity will be during Jurgen tenure and with it under way I have decided to start this thread. Ideally, this should have been on FM17, but I got hyped. This will probably be revived some time for FM17, but for now, I want to have a clear idea about how the team simply works, and for this I need the help of, well, you people.

 

TL;DR - I'm looking to emmulate current Liverpool side...rambled quite a bit for something as simple as this.

First I'll try and "analyse" the opening game. I'm puting this in quotations because I'm pretty bad at this (probably why I'm looking for help):

 

Point #1: The Arsenal game

We start with the 4-3 win against Arsenal. As mentioned I am bad at analysing matches, so I look to add inputs from other articles that are credited below, as well as my own:

• WhoScored match report
• Spielverlagerung match anaylsis
• TheCoachingManual match analysis

From this, I've gathered the following points:

- A 4-1-4-1 formation, probably. At times it looked a bit like a flat 4-5-1, but I'll start with the former.

- A lot of things changed as the match went on, but, looking at Liverpool impressive second half, they pressed high up the pitch when out of possession and were patient with the ball. Only 1 though ball made during the match, by Firmino.

- Narrow play from the wide midfielders (Coutinho and Sane) with the fullbacks (Moreno and Clyne) providing width.

- Henderson was encoring while Wijnaldum played deeper than Lallana in the midfield three.

- Firmino was a False 9, dropping fairly deep, evident with his starting the move for the second goal. Also look at his heatmaps. Nearly never inside the box.

- Compact shape while attacking and defending.

So, how do I translate this into FM? This is were I need your help, this is how I've started:

GK: A standard Goalkeeper performance from Migs, per usual.

CD x 2: Much like the goalie, the Center Backs don't need to be more or less than what they were.

WB - Su x 2: Both Clyne and Moreno were advancing, providing width and getting forward as soon as possession was won (evident by Arsenal's first goal). Went for support as I really don't feel like they were more agressive than that.

DM - De: Henderson was the most deep lying midfielder of the bunch. Starts with defensive mentality, but I'm considering changing that to support. He has the ability and wants to play more forward, but for stability sake, for now he is on defending.

CM - Su: Wijnaldum role? Considered RPM, but he never seemed like play was center around him. Was the deepest of midfielders and brought the ball from the defence, but at times provided late runs and got around the box.

BBM: I like this for Lallana. Often the linking player between the midfield and the attacking trio, has a lot of energy to charge the box and track back when needed.

(right) WM - At: Classic Inside forward performance from Sadio Mane. Made 4 takes ons and scored quite an amazing goal. PIs - Dribble More and Cut Inside with ball.

(left) WM - Su: Coutinho is probably the one I am least sure about. Was deep to offer a springboard for counter attacking, but often got in the box (see his second goal and another big chance saved by Cech). PI- Sit Narrower.

F9: As mentioned, classic F9 seems ideal for how Firmino played.

Shape: Very Fluid - I want to be compact with the ball, as well as offer some creative freedom with players like Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana around.

Mentality: Counter - Another one I'm not sure about. As I wish for patience with the ball, a lower-ended mentality seems like a good place to start with.

TIs: I'm trying to keep this to a minimum, Work Ball Into Box, Close Down Much More, that is it for now. Not sure about defensive line, they didn't seem to play a very high one, for now, kept as is.

Looking for some tips on:

Coutinho's role, team's mentality, potential lack of balance you spot in this, and basically any sort of wrongs you feel like I've done here. Of course I'm already puting this tactic to test in pre-season, but after I'll play some league games, I'll try and provide some analysis. Might take me some time as real life is really interrupting my FM time, but I will update soon no doubt.

 

Next Point: The Burnley match

Now, I'm not going to be arrogant and asume we are going to win and look great, but, Burnley provides a different style of opposition and It will be interesting to see how we play against them. So expect me to give my two cents about it after Saturday. For now, concentrating on my original approach.

[alinp]

Looking at some numbers from the Arsenal game, it appears Henderson had twice as many passes as any of the other midfielders or forwards, hence that would imply a DLP role would probably work better for him - options could be either DLP(D) at CM or DLP(S) at DM in my opinion.

With regards to Coutinho and Mane, both operated higher up the pitch on average than their midfield colleagues.  I think you could have them both as WM(A) but with differing PI's to try and recreate this, however it's likely to be their real life PPM's that account for their differences in play.  Agree both definitely should have Sit Narrower.

I think Migs desperately tried to be more of an SK, but it's not in his nature.  When Karius is fit, from what I saw in pre-season, I think he'll fit that role better.

Wijnaldum & Lallana - not sure a BBM or RPM is correct for either.  I'd be inclined to go start them both as CM(S) with possibly a Get Further Forward PI for Lallana (or just make him a CM(A) which has it as default).

Shape & Mentality I'd tend to agree with you, but may consider starting at Standard mentality to see what happens.

To add to the press, you could raise the d-line, which IMO LFC definitely did do during that devastating 20 min spell post half time.  I also like to set my attacking players to Mark Tighter in these situations, but that personal preference.

When Origi came on, the balance up top changed, as he's no F9...

Will be keen to see how you develop this.

[wereldbol]

Are you trying to exactly mimic the way Klopp played in previous games or are you open to changes that would, I think, improve your tactic overall? I am playing almost exactly the same formation, coincidentally also at Liverpool. However, I am employing a DM on support, the central midfielder is either a roaming playmaker or an advanced playmaker, depending on who plays there and my left back is a FB on attack. I switch between a WB or FB on support for Clyne on the right but I'm never quite sure which offers more. I like the WB as he's more of a passing option for the WM on attack but on the other hand the FB on support keeps things a little tighter at the back. Don't think it matters that much. 

[ryan045]

Also trying to re-create this, will be keeping an eye on it.

[TheJanitor]

Thanks for the replies! Had dental extraction yesterday so I was off for the last day and a half, and I wasn't able to progress much, but now I'm fine and will continue with it today.

On 16.8.2016 at 21:41, alinp said:

Looking at some numbers from the Arsenal game, it appears Henderson had twice as many passes as any of the other midfielders or forwards, hence that would imply a DLP role would probably work better for him - options could be either DLP(D) at CM or DLP(S) at DM in my opinion.

Yes, but, I don't feel like play was funneled through him that much. It's often that my deepest midfielder gets most passes even if he isn't a playmaker. For now, I'm keeping it as DM, but it's an option if doesn't get involved as much as I would like.

On 16.8.2016 at 21:41, alinp said:

With regards to Coutinho and Mane, both operated higher up the pitch on average than their midfield colleagues.  I think you could have them both as WM(A) but with differing PI's to try and recreate this, however it's likely to be their real life PPM's that account for their differences in play.  Agree both definitely should have Sit Narrower.

Thanks for the tip on Coutinho, perhaps teaching him "Comes Deep to Get Ball" will get what I want from him.

On 16.8.2016 at 21:41, alinp said:

I think Migs desperately tried to be more of an SK, but it's not in his nature.  When Karius is fit, from what I saw in pre-season, I think he'll fit that role better.

Migs is probably too confident with the ball on his feet for his own good, but, I haven't noticed him rushing off the line too often. Agree about Karius, but since I'm playing with the original squad, I don't really have someone who fits. When I get someone, I will change it to SK.

On 16.8.2016 at 21:41, alinp said:

Wijnaldum & Lallana - not sure a BBM or RPM is correct for either.  I'd be inclined to go start them both as CM(S) with possibly a Get Further Forward PI for Lallana (or just make him a CM(A) which has it as default).

Gini is a CM(S), but for Lallana, I feel like CM(A) is almost like a second striker, and that wasn't really how Lallana looked during the game. I like how the BBM links with the rest of the attack, and with a good Off The Ball attribute he will make good forward runs.

On 16.8.2016 at 21:41, alinp said:

To add to the press, you could raise the d-line, which IMO LFC definitely did do during that devastating 20 min spell post half time.  I also like to set my attacking players to Mark Tighter in these situations, but that personal preference.

When Origi came on, the balance up top changed, as he's no F9...

As the match went on, Liverpool changed their play, and for that 20-minutes-blitz where they scored 3 goals, definitly "Much Higher Line". Never tried Mark Tigher but I will consider it.

What role do you see for Origi? CF(s)?

On 17.8.2016 at 09:57, wereldbol said:

Are you trying to exactly mimic the way Klopp played in previous games or are you open to changes that would, I think, improve your tactic overall? I am playing almost exactly the same formation, coincidentally also at Liverpool. However, I am employing a DM on support, the central midfielder is either a roaming playmaker or an advanced playmaker, depending on who plays there and my left back is a FB on attack. I switch between a WB or FB on support for Clyne on the right but I'm never quite sure which offers more. I like the WB as he's more of a passing option for the WM on attack but on the other hand the FB on support keeps things a little tighter at the back. Don't think it matters that much. 

I'm open for changes as long as it gives better balance in the game and keeps the current image that I'd like the tactic to have. As for the RB thing, I recommend you keep altering according to situations you see during the game- if your right back can attack let him but against dangerous wingers, keep him as FB.

19 hours ago, ryan045 said:

Also trying to re-create this, will be keeping an eye on it.

Good luck mate, keep us updated!

[alinp]

4 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

What role do you see for Origi? CF(s)?

Yes that could work, or possibly even TM(S).

The Firmino role is probably going to prove the hardest to get right, mainly because (IMO) the F9 role in FM16 simply doesn't drop deep enough for my liking.  It's possible that a DF(S) may actually work better, especially given his propensity for harassing opposing CB's and DM's.

[alinp]

6 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

Yes, but, I don't feel like play was funneled through him that much. It's often that my deepest midfielder gets most passes even if he isn't a playmaker. For now, I'm keeping it as DM, but it's an option if doesn't get involved as much as I would like.

So, I was experimenting with this aspect.  I played Can as a CM(D) in the first half & he made 23 passes, no more than any other player.  For the second half, I changed him to a DLP(D) & he made 43 passes, so clearly this has an effect and to me looked more like the role Henderson played on Sunday (and Can played in the Barca friendly).

[DylanTM]

I'd definitely consider changing Henderson to a DM-S. The DM-S steps into midfield when in possession, forming that Flat 451 you were talking about. He then drops back into the hole when the opposition are on the ball. Helps him to get more involved in play while holding the anchor role when defending and he doesn't become the focal point of the team, ala DLP.

I'm not sure if it's the Advanced Playmaker (which doesn't really suit Couthinho or the tactic) or Attacking Midfielder (more suitable, but doesn't fit the tactic), but if you select one of those with an Attack duty, it makes him attack from deeper. Just a thought.

[SperoM]

I made something similar after having been inspired by the Barcelona and Arsenal matches.

DLF (S)

 

WM (A) - CM (S) - CM (S) - WM (A)

DLP (D)

WB (S) - CD (D) - CD (D) - WB (S)

GK (D)

Standard mentality, very fluid structure with 'Play out of Defence', 'Close down Much More', 'Work ball into Box' and 'Run at Defence' ticked off.

For individual instructions:

Firmino, the DLF - pass shorter, move into channels

I have Coutinho on the left set up like a wide playmaker - shoot less, cut inside, cross less, more risky passes, sit narrower

Mané on the right set up like an inside forward - cut inside, shoot more, cross less, dribble more

The left sided CM is Wijnaldum - dribble less, pass shorter

The right sided CM is Lallana - get further forward, more risky passes, pass shorter

Finally the keeper - slow play down, distribute to playmaker

 

Just the way I saw it. Mané wasn't really sitting as narrow as Coutinho was during the game...he ran more up the side and then cut in (though he roamed toward the end a lot). I toyed with the idea of giving the other CM (S) 'get further forward' because we often had numbers going into the box at the same time he was mostly subdued so that's tough. I've toyed with the idea of playing with a slightly higher line but I'm not sure about it yet. Also considering setting the wingbacks to 'cross less'.

[Overmars]

I don't think 4-1-4-1 is the right way to describe it. 4-1-2-3 is a closer approximation. Mané was an inside forward, while Coutinho was an AP playing very narrow (more of a free role than anything else).

[Ji-Sung Park]

6 hours ago, Overmars said:

I don't think 4-1-4-1 is the right way to describe it. 4-1-2-3 is a closer approximation. Mané was an inside forward, while Coutinho was an AP playing very narrow (more of a free role than anything else).

That really doesn't matter, how it looks on a board, the way it plays is more important.

[alinp]

6 hours ago, Overmars said:

I don't think 4-1-4-1 is the right way to describe it. 4-1-2-3 is a closer approximation. Mané was an inside forward, while Coutinho was an AP playing very narrow (more of a free role than anything else).

Remember the formation in FM16 is about how they defend... for me that was more of a 4-1-4-1 or flat 4-5-1.  When attacking, Coutinho & Mane moved forward and narrow, which produced the 4-1-2-3 shape.

[TheJanitor]

Had my first results with this tactic. The first two league matches were against Leicester and Manchester City. This would be a good starting place for my tactic as it is based on a match against a strong opposition.

The season opener was against real life champions Leicester City away from home.

Leicester started with their typical 4-4-2 with their strongest eleven. The only changes I have made to my 4-1-4-1 is Coutinho on attack and Can on support. Some points taken:

• My DM (su) was involved in play, making more passes then most player, but between my midfield trio, he made the least amount of passes which is something that I don't want to happen. Changing him to DLP (su) for the second half made him much more involved (ended with most passes), so, credit to alinp for this one, I'm keeping it.
• Lallana made the most key passes in the first half before he was subbed due to tireness, with 4 key passes. Exactly what I want from him and I liked how he performed the role.
• For Jordon Ibe at the Mane role, I'm looking at dribbles. He made 4 which is a good return. Lacks end product, I need to replace him with someone who is more outright lethal.
• Defending was good. The only goal scored against us was a header from a corner. In general we looked compact and denied space for Leicester.
• In the 2nd half, after we went goal down, I asked my team to Push Much Higher Up, which saw us having much more possession, but not much better attacking play. Our equilizer came when I brought Origi to play upfront as CF (su) with Firmino pushed to CM (at). the goal came after a run from Firmino inside the box.

To sum things up, good defensive play, and I really like how Lallana, Ibe and after the change, Can did for me. However, the offensive play is lacking. We didn't create a lot of quality chances. It feels like this tactic needs more of a punch.

[alinp]

13 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

I brought Origi to play upfront as CF (su) with Firmino pushed to CM (at). the goal came after a run from Firmino inside the box.

I'm trying a flat version of this with a DLP(D) at CM.  I (as intimated earlier) have a CM(A) for the Lallana role, which I have noted still holds position in the midfield 3 ok, but does run past the striker more often (as would be expected).  This is working really well as it's not uncommon for the player here to score having been nicely slipped through by the "F9".... I say F9, but actually I'm playing a DF(S) with Hold Up Ball added.

[Overmars]

1 hour ago, alinp said:

Remember the formation in FM16 is about how they defend... for me that was more of a 4-1-4-1 or flat 4-5-1.  When attacking, Coutinho & Mane moved forward and narrow, which produced the 4-1-2-3 shape.

I don't think they play that deep. Coutinho, especially, does not track back as much as a ML position would imply. As I watch this Burnley match, Coutinho and Sturridge are playing higher up the pitch without the ball than Lallana and Wijnaldum.

[alinp]

1 hour ago, Overmars said:

I don't think they play that deep. Coutinho, especially, does not track back as much as a ML position would imply. As I watch this Burnley match, Coutinho and Sturridge are playing higher up the pitch without the ball than Lallana and Wijnaldum.

Agree they're playing more as a 433 today (badly), but it's more because Burnley are letting them.

The Arsenal game was similar to the Barca friendly, where I thought they played more of a 4141/451 also.

[TheJanitor]

3 hours ago, alinp said:

I'm trying a flat version of this with a DLP(D) at CM.  I (as intimated earlier) have a CM(A) for the Lallana role, which I have noted still holds position in the midfield 3 ok, but does run past the striker more often (as would be expected).  This is working really well as it's not uncommon for the player here to score having been nicely slipped through by the "F9".... I say F9, but actually I'm playing a DF(S) with Hold Up Ball added.

How does your CM(A) does for you in linking up and providing key passes? The reason I'm not using this role is because I always thought it's very goal-orientated. I need some link up between defence and attack. I also want him to score a bit, but be more of a creator for the front 3.

For the Manchester City match, I used Firmino as DF as well and he performed much better.

Not much to take from today's match, sadly. I will try to take some of what Liverpool tried to do and add what I thought they needed for my next match. Against Aston Villa, so again, good conditions to test a "Plan A" tactic against a relegation candidate.

[alinp]

2 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

How does your CM(A) does for you in linking up and providing key passes? The reason I'm not using this role is because I always thought it's very goal-orientated. I need some link up between defence and attack. I also want him to score a bit, but be more of a creator for the front 3.

For the Manchester City match, I used Firmino as DF as well and he performed much better.

Not much to take from today's match, sadly. I will try to take some of what Liverpool tried to do and add what I thought they needed for my next match. Against Aston Villa, so again, good conditions to test a "Plan A" tactic against a relegation candidate.

Looking at some numbers from my last match (a close, 1-0 win v Man City), my right side definitely dominated with the following Key Pass numbers... WBR 9, MR 7 & MCR 8, compared to their left side counterparts who had 3, 5 & 4 respectively.

At the moment (I'm currently in 2024), Grujic has made the spot very much his own, but it is taxing, so tends to get subbed around 65/70.  Checking the Form page, he's played in 19 of the last 20 matches and only played the full 90 twice.  Goals wise, not so good - only 3 in those 19 appearances, but his lowest rating is a 6.9 (once) & normally rates mid to high 7's with the odd 8 & 9 now and then.  Pass wise, he's very much involved, completing 45-50 each match and averaging around 5 key passes per game (in 1 match he had 10).  I don't really know how good that is, but it sounds like it should be

[alinp]

Ran a little experiment this morning...

Fired up FMT on my iPad and loaded up my version of this with FC Barcelona

Flat 4-5-1 (reads R to L)

• SK A + Distribute to FB's
• WB S + Stay Wider
• CD;
• CD + Close Down Much Less (the idea here being that the DCL will be slightly less aggressive than the DCR)
• WB A + Stay Wider
• WM A + Dribble More, Mark Tighter, Sit Narrower & Cut Inside with Ball
• CM A + Mark Tighter
• DLP D + Close Down Much Less
• CM S + Mark Tighter
• WM A + Mark Tighter, More Direct Passes & Sit Narrower
• DF S + Hold Up Ball

Standard/Very Fluid + Higher Defensive Line, Much More Closing Down & Low Crosses.

Did nothing else other than ensure all players were available for selection, then holidayed through to 1st June 2016.

Results

La Liga - 1st P 38 W 29 D 7 L 2 GF 90 GA 28 GD +62 Pts 94.  RM finished 2nd on 92 & Atleti 3rd on 90.

Cups not so good tho (for Barca) - Won Spanish Super Cup & European Super Cup, RU Club World Champs, Semi's Spanish Cup & 1st KO round of Champions League (knocked out by Man City).

 

Does it prove anything other than Barca are a good team? Probably not, but it was a bit of fun for a Sunday morning

 

[alinp]

Hi TheJanitor

Any more thoughts on this following yesterdays match v Leicester?

[TheJanitor]

Yes, I'm planning on rebooting this for FM17 with more detail as I haven't got far with Liverpool on FM16 and I've decided to finish my save wtih Dortmund. Anyway, back to tactics, I'm still leaning towards a 4-1-4-1 instead of 4-1-2-3, but I don't think there is a massive difference between the two. I'm leaning towards it because a) Klopp is a fan of two banks of four and b) When looking at Leicester during build up play, bar the counter-pressing phases (when Liverpool just lose the ball but have man forward and they try to agressively win it back) it seems like the wide-players are forming a line with both central midfielders. I'm content with Control Mentality, probably with a Counter variant, as well as Fluid, if not Very Fluid, philosophy (asuming they are defined the same for FM17 as they were for FM16).

As for roles, a fairly standard GK + 2 CBs is a start. Both Millie and Clyne were advancing and providing width as both Firmino and Mane looked to move centrally. Probably have to re-watch the game to determine roles, any input on this will be welcomed. Henderson, the more time passes, the more I think he is turning into a more conservative DM, so I think a DM-D with More Direct Passing probably. Wijnaldum was anywere. At times he was our deepest midfielder, collecting the ball from deep, and at times he was our most forward player(!). He also didn't attract much of the ball, so BBM seems like a perfect fit. Lallana probably a CM-A. Often around the box. Sturridge was a False 9. In Lallana's goal for example he got the ball in a fairly deep and wide position, dribbled and made an outstanding pass to Gini for the assist.  At times very deep, more capable on the ball than being credited for and likes to dribble.

Kind of a mess, this post, but I would like to hear what you think.

[alinp]

I think it will be interesting to see how Klopp's approach develops over the season.  I'm inclined to think we'll see more of a Sweeper Keeper if/when Karius is introduced, and there were even times in the match when Mignolet could have been described as such (although not to Claudio Bravo levels).

Defensively, I agree 2 simple CD's would be appropriate, leaving to their attributes to determine how they play, and would veer towards WB(S) for both full backs (with possibly Stay Wider, or just train the PPM to hug the touchline).

The midfield 3 is interesting, and your interpretation looks pretty good, but although Wijnaldum was up and down, he didn't Roam all over, hence IMO a CM(S) may be all that's needed for his role.  For Hendo's role, I think one of the key elements would be for it to Hold Position.  DLP or DM (adding the PI if on Support) would probably do this.  Don't recall him dropping in between Lucas & Matip a la Busquets, so I don't think a HB is an option.  Given that he still occasionally arrived late in the box (including his glaring miss), I'd experiment with DM(S) + Hold Position PI.

Up front, Sturridge is again interesting.  I'm wavering between either a CF(S) with Move Into Channels or an F9 with Roam.  The difference between the 2 would be the Hold Up Ball PI and given that he does indeed dwell on the ball now and then, I'd go for the CF(S) option personally.

For me, v Leicester, offensively Firmino played pretty much the Raumdeuter role as it's described in the game, but I also agree with you that defensively (other than in Counter Pressing situations) he slotted in Wide Left, so I'm inclined to make that role WM(A) + Roam & Sit Narrower & Mane on the other side exactly the same but with extra PI's of Dribble More & Cut Inside to replicate IF play from Right Mid.

I've heard Klopp described as a "Son of Sacchi" and hence would be inclined to follow the lead from Ozil's post on the subject with Standard/Very Fluid using the dynamism of the roles to create the swift attacking movement.  TI wise, it was very clear there was an instruction to play out of defence and to try and pen Leicester in, hence maxing the high line and pressing.

[ajsr1982]

Some points to make...

FM isn't sophisticated enough to recreate the situational pressing that Liverpool employ, so don't get too hung up on it.

Very Fluid mentality is the key to the success of this. It brings your players closer together (a key feature of Liverpool's play), and increases team creativity. that allows you to have more generalist roles - you appear to have this box ticked.

For the forward role, I wonder if a Treq is the answer. In the AM position for Firmino and in the CF position for Sturridge. It appears to suit the style of play of both.

[TheJanitor]

18 minutes ago, ajsr1982 said:

For the forward role, I wonder if a Treq is the answer. In the AM position for Firmino and in the CF position for Sturridge. It appears to suit the style of play of both.

Firmino is one of the (if not the) best presser of the ball in Liverpool right now. Does tireless work off the ball to hassle opposition, so definitly not Treq. I thought about that role for Sturridge though, still don't want to give him such creative freedom.

 

1 hour ago, alinp said:

I think it will be interesting to see how Klopp's approach develops over the season.

Agree on this, your point about Karius likely to be a Sweeper Keeper is probably true, even the man himself said this about himself. Still not feeling Migs as one. Doesn't seem to venture far and distribute fairly safely most of the time. Another interesting change that will happen is how Can will fit into that midfield. Lallana is untouchable in my opinion so either instead of Hendo or instead of Gini. All three are very different players.

[Ji-Sung Park]

I quit the Bundesliga and was offered the Liverpool job in June 2017. I will not try to replicate Klopp that much, it seems that the gegenpress is difficult if not impossible to achieve on FM, so I have to make something relative to my squad.

(Don't mean to hijack the thread, just looking for input!)

The squad as it was when Jürgen Norbert was sacked:

There's no euro competition, so I have to try and find a top class CD and one top class DM. I will bid for Kranevitter who's unhappy at Atletico. We have 4 potential right wingers in Mané, Markovic, Feghouli and Kampl. The latter will probably be a rotation player with Coutinho in the left. I might try to cash in on Emre Can, poor passing, decisions and positioning. We'll see. Other than that I like the team.

The prelim tactic:

This is straight off the top of my head. Will be tweaked as we go, for sure. 

GK: Defend. I opt for this for now as I really don't have that GK with high passing.
WBR: The Clyne role. I will have this one on support as we have a maniac as right midfielder. More on this later.
CDx2: Normal.
WBL: Moreno or Jetro. Both have attacking abilities and Coutinho will be sitting narrow. Easy choice.

DM: For now this is set to DLP(s), but likely to change. I'm looking to buy Kranevitter and he is a rock, a tackler and a passer.

WR: I chose an out and out winger here, with PI set to roam. Mané's got great pace and finishing, I want him to sprint down the right and towards the center. The roaming will make him more unpredictable and will leave space out wide for Clyne.
CMR: Roaming playmaker to start with for either Hendo or Can. Might be a B2B, we'll see.
CML: Bog standard CM on support. Will use Grujic there when he comes back from loan.
WL: The Coutinho role. I will experiment with this, but for now PI's are 'sit narrower', 'get further forward' and 'cut inside'.

CF: All three forwards are suited as F9's or something along those lines. Open for suggestions!

As far as team instructions, shape, mentality, I am at your mercy. I was thinking this:

I can push higher if I find a pacey CD. Passing, I'm not sure, I'll leave it as is for now. Closing down is pretty much self explanatory, I want some of that fluid pressing stuff. 

Believe it or not, this is my first time managing Liverpool on any FM edition. That's pretty sick. So I am very much hoping for some feedback before we start the new season. Budget is €82M. 

Would love some input on this. Keep in mind that it is not a Klopp replica, but if it plays like that I won't mind

[TheJanitor]

I think it might lack an attacking punch, maybe change the CM-S to CM-A? I like the BBM role as well if you wish for a little more support, but with a WM-S with sit narrower (if you are using Coutinho why not WP-S?), I feel like I'd like someone moving higher up to open up space for him. WM-A could be a nice alternative for this.

[Ji-Sung Park]

26 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

I think it might lack an attacking punch, maybe change the CM-S to CM-A? I like the BBM role as well if you wish for a little more support, but with a WM-S with sit narrower (if you are using Coutinho why not WP-S?), I feel like I'd like someone moving higher up to open up space for him. WM-A could be a nice alternative for this.

Having a WP out there in Coutinho's place makes more sense, when thinking about it. I will give it a try. 

The club had already sorted a transfer for Barca's Rafinha, so having a CM(a) there will work with him playing. I decided against the roaming playmaker as I now have set Coutinho as a wide playmaker. First match is away to Stoke, report incoming.

[Ji-Sung Park]

Finished 0-0 at Stoke. Not a very potent tactic - as we had 17 shots, 7 on target and zero CCCs. Downer that Firmino had to go off injured and his replacement, Sturridge, was completely brain dead. However, I can see that the forward player is too isolated, even as a F9. Maybe I have to look more into a 4-2-3-1 here, we'll see.

[TheJanitor]

Don't be dishearted- could be fluidity, small things about the tactic and/or it could be just a case of "not being your day". I wouldn't recommend completely scratching a single tactic and switching to a different one based on one result - things went bad for me when I had random "revolutions" with my Dortmund side. This season I stuck to my tactics through some less impressive time and I'm rewarded with comfortly being top of the league, 12pts of Bayern. Myself and I'm sure others can vouch for the 4-1-4-1 and you can have some great results with it.

But of course you sometimes have to go with you heart...

[alinp]

Like @Ji-Sung Park, I now have a roaming W(A) on the right and I'm using a roaming WM(A) with Sit Narrower on the left, and although they do get closer to the striker (CF(S) + Move into Channels for me) making a 4-1-2-3 in attack, I agree that they just don't seem as potent as I'd hoped.

I'm wondering whether it's worth increasing the risk level by trying Attacking mentality.

 

[Ji-Sung Park]

12 hours ago, TheJanitor said:

But of course you sometimes have to go with you heart...

I can tell that something is off with that tactic, but tweaks will get it there. 

Man Utd away:

Finished 1-1 after they get a goal from a corner just before the end.

Changes:

The RPM is replaced by a BBM (Hendo). The CM(s) is now on attack. Coutinho is a wide playmaker on support. However, Coutinho is just joke central on this game. His 'shoots from distance' ppm is ridiculous, all he does is destroy the build up play.

[alinp]

Attacking didn't work

However, I'm now playing around with using More Direct Passing, tempered by PooD & WbiB.  Liking what I'm seeing so far.

1 hour ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Coutinho is a wide playmaker on support. However, Coutinho is just joke central on this game. His 'shoots from distance' ppm is ridiculous, all he does is destroy the build up play.

I really think you should be trying to get him further up the pitch by using an Attack duty.  As for the shooting, frustratingly this seem very real!!

[alinp]

15 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Downer that Firmino had to go off injured and his replacement, Sturridge, was completely brain dead. However, I can see that the forward player is too isolated, even as a F9.

A question on the F9 role... is it considered a "Playmaker" and hence attracts the ball?

If it is, then I think it's totally wrong for Sturridge as he definitely doesn't fill that role for real Liverpool.  Yes he can be good with the ball at his feet, but his game (certainly last Saturday) was about finding space for himself and creating space for others (see Firmino's first goal).

[Ji-Sung Park]

3 minutes ago, alinp said:

I really think you should be trying to get him further up the pitch by using an Attack duty.  As for the shooting, frustratingly this seem very real!!

Yes, I jammed him up to attacking duty and it is a little better. When on support he drops very deep to get the ball. Looks better now.

How about the striker? Do you feel like F9 is getting him deep enough to be involved? 

[alinp]

1 minute ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

How about the striker? Do you feel like F9 is getting him deep enough to be involved?

I use a CF(S) with Move into Channels PI - personally I think this works.

[Ji-Sung Park]

1 minute ago, alinp said:

A question on the F9 role... is it considered a "Playmaker" and hence attracts the ball?

 

The F9 will drop out of position, deeper and to the sides (move into channels hard coded) and try to create space for others. 

[alinp]

Just now, Ji-Sung Park said:

The F9 will drop out of position, deeper and to the sides (move into channels hard coded) and try to create space for others. 

Yes - but does it have the "Playmaker" coding too?

The F9 doesn't have Roam by defualt, so needs to be added if wanted.  Personally, I think the CF(S) is a far more rounded role.

[Ji-Sung Park]

4 minutes ago, alinp said:

Yes - but does it have the "Playmaker" coding too?

 

No, it doesn't look like it. I'm not sure tho.

So, after changing things a bit here and there I am fairly content as to how it plays. Back to back games against Chelsea and Arsenal finished 2-0 in both.

Stats from the latest game against Arsenal:

6 CCCs, but the off target ratio is too high. This is down to our center forward blasting away shots when surrounded by the opposition. The BBM looks good, but not immense and I will experiment with both F9 and BBM positions as we go. The sample size is small, we are only 5 league games in and it is too soon for a final verdict (I normally play at least 20 matches before settling). But I think the foundation is set now.

Player ratings:

As you can see, the F9 (Mané first half, Perez second) is not playing well overall. This is the tune for all matches, more or less. Sometimes they'll tap in a cross or two, but overall the role must be scrutinized further. Roberto Firmino has ppm 'plays one-twos', which I think can make him a better F9 than Perez and Sturridge. We'll see, he's just back from injury.

 

[BillHoudini24]

I would like to ask you guys something very specific. How would you describe Lallana's role in Klopp's system in FM terms?

I think he plays as an Attacking Midfielder with P.I "Closing down much more", "Roam from Position". But irl he often drops deep to get the ball from Henderson and Gini, so maybe he's AM(S) with the 2 P.Is that I said?

Any feedback on that?

[alinp]

1 minute ago, BillHoudini24 said:

I would like to ask you guys something very specific. How would you describe Lallana's role in Klopp's system in FM terms?

I think he plays as an Attacking Midfielder with P.I "Closing down much more", "Roam from Position". But irl he often drops deep to get the ball from Henderson and Gini, so maybe he's AM(S) with the 2 P.Is that I said?

Any feedback on that?

Hi Bill - personally I think the role is more a CM(A) + Roam or a B2B + GFF. 

I tend to use TI's and/or OI's to make the press work.

[BillHoudini24]

That would do too, in fact it seems better than my thought on the subject. So, Henderson as a DM(S), Gini as a CM(S) and Lallana as a CM(A)? It's very difficult to emulate that system in FM. Liverpool's lines are very compact, so probably Fluid-Very Fluid should be used, since Coutinho-Mane-Lallana-Henderson-Gini are good enough on the creative end and those shapes keep the team compact.

Also, Liverpool attack and defend as a unit, so Fluid or even Very Fluid is a must. Standard mentality also, with Wing Backs(S). I think Liverpool's problem in FM and irl is that this system needs Ball Playing Defenders. Klopp had Hummels and Subotic in Dortmund, 2 CBs who are good with the ball. Now he has faster CBs, but more limited in terms of creativity.

I'm gonna give this a try on FM17, because in my save all those players have retired (I'm playing in 2031 now).

[alinp]

I saw an interesting screenshot from the Chelsea game which showed the 2 CM's (Wij & Lallana) defending slightly ahead (vertically) of Mane & Coutinho in very much a 4-1-4-1.  I did briefly experiment with having them both as AM(S), but still with MR/ML for the wide men, but it didn't work, so I now have them as per your comment (both with roaming), but with Henderson as a DLP(S) behind them, which encourages him to Hold Position without the need to add the PI.

[TheJanitor]

Henderson is definitly a DLP. Had 111(!) passes today, a good chunk of them forward. Right now my midfield base will be DLP-D/S (depends on opposition), BBM and CM-A.

And I know two matches are not enough, but Karius does look like a Sweeper Keeper from first sight. Loves to get forward and involved with play.

As for the remarks on BPD, I beg to differ. Yes, none of our CBs have the ball-playing skills of Hummles (very few defenders are, to be honest) but Matip is quite impressive, at times switching play and passing directly, even dribbling forward. Composed as well which is the first thing I look for in a BPD in the game. Klavan today also should his ability with that pass to Millie, and Lucas aswell, starting the play for the opening two goals for us (and assisting Leicester first ).

[yonko]

My take on the roles in Klopp's tactic so far from what I've seen in matches so far is this:

Formation - 4-1-4-1

SK-D

2x FB-A

2x CD-D

DLP-S

W-A

CM-A

CM-S

WP-A

F9-S (Firmino)/ CF-S with moves into channels (Sturridge)

Haven't tried it yet on FM but this is what I would go with to start. I have my doubts about the Duty for the DLP. Hendo is balancing very well between Support and Defense so far. Support for home games, Defend for away games perhaps?

[MrMourinho]

22 hours ago, yonko said:

My take on the roles in Klopp's tactic so far from what I've seen in matches so far is this:

Formation - 4-1-4-1

SK-D

2x FB-A

2x CD-D

DLP-S

W-A

CM-A

CM-S

WP-A

F9-S (Firmino)/ CF-S with moves into channels (Sturridge)

Haven't tried it yet on FM but this is what I would go with to start. I have my doubts about the Duty for the DLP. Hendo is balancing very well between Support and Defense so far. Support for home games, Defend for away games perhaps?

Do you really think Liverpool at the moment play with a winger? To me, it seems like they play both their wide players inside. Also, I might go with a 4-5-1, but a 4-1-4-1 seems equally right. I am not a Liverpool supporter but I love the way they play right now. The fluid movement in attack, the intense pressing. Klopp certainly seems to be on the right track for something special. It would be interesting to see more people's views about what mentality, shape and team instructions to choose that reflects how Liverpool play now. I have tried to replicate their play with a recent save. Then I used a 4-3-3 formation with very fluid mentality and it worked quite nicely with the inside forwards almost defending in line with the central midfielders. I have tried with a false 9, but results have been poor with that role, so changed to a Complete forward. 

[Johnleegriffin]

this is my interpretation on Klopp's Liverpool 4-3-3 with the help of this thread 

Universality - In Football Manager 2015 (Very Fluid)

this post has totally changed my outlook on tactics for fm16, this thread is perfect for how Liverpool play.

Lallana does train into the midfield role and both him and Can push forward when Liverpool have the ball creating a high 4-1-4-1 formation they both are also pressing machines, if it is a difficult game i changed Lallana into a advanced playmaker on support. 

Sturridge plays out right as an inside forward, yea in real life he hates it there but in this game he's a goal machine in that position.

[alinp]

1 hour ago, Johnleegriffin said:

this is my interpretation on Klopp's Liverpool 4-3-3 with the help of this thread 

Universality - In Football Manager 2015 (Very Fluid)

this post has totally changed my outlook on tactics for fm16, this thread is perfect for how Liverpool play.

Lallana does train into the midfield role and both him and Can push forward when Liverpool have the ball creating a high 4-1-4-1 formation they both are also pressing machines, if it is a difficult game i changed Lallana into a advanced playmaker on support. 

Sturridge plays out right as an inside forward, yea in real life he hates it there but in this game he's a goal machine in that position.

Do the wide men drop back and defend as a 4-1-4-1/4-5-1?