Do clubs in decline ever downgrade their stadium?

[mikenevo]

I have created a scenario where nearly every club in England is under a transfer embargo until 2050 and all players except players under 18 who're promising have been removed from their clubs.

It is now 2023 and Leicester City have been relegated to League 1 and are often only filling half of their stadium. Their decline looks like it's going to continue as they're not producing decent youth products.

As the title says, will a team downgrade (sell) their stadium at any point or will they just keep the stadium no matter what, even if they drop into none league football?

[santy001]

General decline isn't so much of an issue or factor, however, clubs that are in financial difficulty are more likely to have parts of the ground closed off and effectively lose that capacity I believe. 

There is a point at which if a club drops down the leagues far enough, the ground maintenance alone would become too costly and cause it to happen anyway. 

It tends to require pretty extreme circumstances, and that's rightly the case. It's worth spending a few thousand more even in League 1, to have that headroom should things be turned around. Especially since a good managerial appointment can be the trigger for turning it around.

[mikenevo]

So it is actually possible then?

In this case Leicester City have over £200,000,000 in the bank. Do you think despite their amazing bank balance, if they were to drop down to let says the conferene north (or whatever it's called), they would move into a smaller stadium?

[Guest]

1 hour ago, mikenevo said:

In this case Leicester City have over £200,000,000 in the bank. Do you think despite their amazing bank balance, if they were to drop down to let says the conferene north (or whatever it's called), they would move into a smaller stadium?

No, if a club can afford to pay the running costs of a large stadium they will do so.

[mikenevo]

Ok cheers, seems a bit of a strange one as you would think if a club was only filling 10% of it's stadium, they would want to move out as the atmosphere would be awful.  Although I suppose FM hasn't reached that level of realism yet.

[Guest]

Yes it has, no club would ever end up plummeting to the lower divisions while that had tat sort of cash in their account, when big clubs fall through the pyramid it tends to go hand in hand with financial chaos & the downgrade/sale of their fixed assets/

[phnompenhandy]

12 hours ago, mikenevo said:

Ok cheers, seems a bit of a strange one as you would think if a club was only filling 10% of it's stadium, they would want to move out as the atmosphere would be awful.  Although I suppose FM hasn't reached that level of realism yet.

As a lower league manager it's a perfectly normal situation for me to be playing weekly in stadia at 5-10% capacity.

[mikenevo]

4 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

As a lower league manager it's a perfectly normal situation for me to be playing weekly in stadia at 5-10% capacity.

I'm not clued up much on lower leagues if I'm honest, but is this also the case in real life? Forgetting the finances side of things and the unrealistic decline, surely they would move to a smaller stadium that fit their profile?

[withnail316]

17 hours ago, mikenevo said:

I'm not clued up much on lower leagues if I'm honest, but is this also the case in real life? Forgetting the finances side of things and the unrealistic decline, surely they would move to a smaller stadium that fit their profile?

My local non-league club have a capacity of around 1,500, yet they play in front of crowds of about 150 most weeks. Slightly higher up, the club I support are lucky if they fill 25% of a 20,000 ground on a match-day, yet there is no appetite to move from a stadium we've played in for over 100 years either from us fans or the club. 

[mikenevo]

6 hours ago, withnail316 said:

My local non-league club have a capacity of around 1,500, yet they play in front of crowds of about 150 most weeks. Slightly higher up, the club I support are lucky if they fill 25% of a 20,000 ground on a match-day, yet there is no appetite to move from a stadium we've played in for over 100 years either from us fans or the club. 

That's interesting, thanks for you reply. 

[gavo01]

Im my current FM16 save, Tranmere Rovers have left their original 25,000 capacity stadium to move in to a 6,500 capacity stadium. I imagine this was done for financial reasons due to them struggling to regain promotion to the Football League. 

[withnail316]

1 hour ago, mikenevo said:

That's interesting, thanks for you reply. 

No worries. Also worth pointing out that if a club is on the slide financially, finding the money to build a new stadium should be pretty low down their list of priorities. Also, while a small ground may match their current status, no former club of stature will admit to their fans they don't have the ambition to recapture their former glories. If they did, some of their fans may wonder why they keep digging in to their pocket to follow a club that are happy drifting down the leagues. 

[BoxToBox]

On 8/18/2016 at 18:15, mikenevo said:

Ok cheers, seems a bit of a strange one as you would think if a club was only filling 10% of it's stadium, they would want to move out as the atmosphere would be awful.  Although I suppose FM hasn't reached that level of realism yet.

It's not FM's issue, you've put the teams, and the country to an extent into a bafflingly unrealistic situation(a fun one, definitely). You can't expect to set up such a mad situation and expect realistic results.

[BoxToBox]

On 8/18/2016 at 18:15, mikenevo said:

Ok cheers, seems a bit of a strange one as you would think if a club was only filling 10% of it's stadium, they would want to move out as the atmosphere would be awful.  Although I suppose FM hasn't reached that level of realism yet.

It's not FM's issue, you've put the teams, and the country to an extent into a bafflingly unrealistic situation(a fun one, definitely). You can't expect to set up such a mad situation and expect realistic results.

[Maaka]

Can anyone come up with a real life example of a club who has fallen from the top (and thus had a fairly large stadium) to such a level that the stadium should be much, MUCH smaller? I can't seem to find any such examples.
Ie, in England, it would mean a team that used to compete in the top division (maybe top two), and now would be around level 6 or 7 (or lower), and the fall should be quite recent, otherwise I can't imagine they'd have a "great" stadium to begin with. Thus, the late Pompey or United (Leeds, that is, not Sheffield)  examples are no good.

[withnail316]

3 minutes ago, Maaka said:

Can anyone come up with a real life example of a club who has fallen from the top (and thus had a fairly large stadium) to such a level that the stadium should be much, MUCH smaller? I can't seem to find any such examples.
Ie, in England, it would mean a team that used to compete in the top division (maybe top two), and now would be around level 6 or 7 (or lower), and the fall should be quite recent, otherwise I can't imagine they'd have a "great" stadium to begin with.

Stockport County were in the First Division (now the Championship) in the 90s, and also made the League Cup semi final. They're now a 6th tier club, although their ground has never been enormous. 

[Maaka]

1 minute ago, withnail316 said:

Stockport County were in the First Division (now the Championship) in the 90s, and also made the League Cup semi final. They're now a 6th tier club, although their ground has never been enormous. 

Yeah, I see they play in a 10k stadium, which although not exactly small, isn't exactly extreme either for a tier 6 club. Yes, it's the largest in National League North (according to Wikipedia), but still doesn't really come near the topic for this thread. Had it been a 30-40-50k stadium, maybe..

[withnail316]

6 minutes ago, Maaka said:

Yeah, I see they play in a 10k stadium, which although not exactly small, isn't exactly extreme either for a tier 6 club. Yes, it's the largest in National League North (according to Wikipedia), but still doesn't really come near the topic for this thread. Had it been a 30-40-50k stadium, maybe..

True, it doesn't answer the original question. It did fit your follow up question, though. 

[BoxToBox]

13 minutes ago, Maaka said:

Can anyone come up with a real life example of a club who has fallen from the top (and thus had a fairly large stadium) to such a level that the stadium should be much, MUCH smaller? I can't seem to find any such examples.
Ie, in England, it would mean a team that used to compete in the top division (maybe top two), and now would be around level 6 or 7 (or lower), and the fall should be quite recent, otherwise I can't imagine they'd have a "great" stadium to begin with. Thus, the late Pompey or United (Leeds, that is, not Sheffield)  examples are no good.

Bradford FC(now Bradford Park Avenue) had to sell their stadium in 1973, and ground share with Bradford City, but I guess it's not a great example as they liquidated the year after and later on started from the ground up(currently in the 6th division).

[BoxToBox]

13 minutes ago, Maaka said:

Can anyone come up with a real life example of a club who has fallen from the top (and thus had a fairly large stadium) to such a level that the stadium should be much, MUCH smaller? I can't seem to find any such examples.
Ie, in England, it would mean a team that used to compete in the top division (maybe top two), and now would be around level 6 or 7 (or lower), and the fall should be quite recent, otherwise I can't imagine they'd have a "great" stadium to begin with. Thus, the late Pompey or United (Leeds, that is, not Sheffield)  examples are no good.

Bradford FC(now Bradford Park Avenue) had to sell their stadium in 1973, and ground share with Bradford City, but I guess it's not a great example as they liquidated the year after and later on started from the ground up(currently in the 6th division).

[Maaka]

8 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

Bradford FC(now Bradford Park Avenue) had to sell their stadium in 1973, and ground share with Bradford City, but I guess it's not a great example as they liquidated the year after and later on started from the ground up(currently in the 6th division).

So, technincally, they ceased to exist, which, again, is not what the OP looks for... 

[Maaka]

12 minutes ago, withnail316 said:

True, it doesn't answer the original question. It did fit your follow up question, though. 

Yeah, but that was meant to be integrated with the original one 

[withnail316]

1 minute ago, Maaka said:

Yeah, but that was meant to be integrated with the original one 

I suppose my own club may apply. We were a top flight club the year before the PL was launched, and redeveloped our stadium to a 20,000 all-seater on that basis. We've spent much of the following 24 years stuck in the 3rd and 4th tier, playing in front of around 5,000 fans, although this last couple of years we've had several games with under 4,000 in attendance. 

[Maaka]

I'd say Meadow Lane is a bit large for League Two, but not gigantic compared to the other stadia in any way. Still not quite there, I'm afraid. And the oldest professional club shouldn't fall that far from grace anyway 

[mikenevo]

Some interesting posts on here, loving the discussions. I have to concede that it won't happen under the current rules I have in place which is unfortunate and that it is also extremely unlikely in real life. I'm going to set up another test just to see how far we can push FM with the extreme and see what happens to United dropping down the leagues year on year and going into debt.

[mikenevo]

Transfer Embargo: 2015 - 2040

Increased Debt

Loss of sponsors

Removal of players

I'll sim through to around 2020 and see where we're at, I expect them to drop down the leagues year on year.

[mikenevo]

Currently nothing has happened stadium wise and only very minimal drop facilities wise and they're now in the 7th tier of English football. The only thing to note is that they're only pulling in audiences of around 13,000

[Maaka]

13 minutes ago, mikenevo said:

Currently nothing has happened stadium wise and only very minimal drop facilities wise and they're now in the 7th tier of English football. The only thing to note is that they're only pulling in audiences of around 13,000

Attendance of 13.000 in the 7th tier? Huh.

[mikenevo]

18 minutes ago, Maaka said:

Attendance of 13.000 in the 7th tier? Huh.

I'm confused, whats the problem?

[Maaka]

51 minutes ago, mikenevo said:

I'm confused, whats the problem?

No problem. Just not something you see every day.. Maybe the club's rep should fall faster aswell? I'd imagine that even though some hard core fans would always stay, 13k on average seems a bit much.

[chestermike]

yes it happened on my long term career game. Bolton got relegated to the Conf north and built the 12,000 capacity nat lofthouse arena.

[mikenevo]

Year 2033, Manchester United have been in and out of administration and yet they still seem to keep fighting. They're like a yoyo club coming up to the conference north and then dropping back down constantly. Their rep is now at 1,114 and yet despite their extreme circumstances and debt, they're still at Old Trafford... This season is the first time they haven't come back up to the conference north though, so could it be "rip"???

[phnompenhandy]

12 hours ago, Maaka said:

Attendance of 13.000 in the 7th tier? Huh.

I would expect that. It's analogous to the recent example of Glasgow Rangers. Forced to restart in the lowest tier they still packed their stadium.

[Maaka]

12 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

I would expect that. It's analogous to the recent example of Glasgow Rangers. Forced to restart in the lowest tier they still packed their stadium.

Naa.. Not exactly. Rangers were forced to start from tier 4 in Scotland, and their fans joined directly from tier 1 to tier 4. The aforementioned example is a club who's declined steady (and abruptly) tier by tier, down the ladder. I'd expect more fans to stay with Rangers than the ManU example. They're going down because they're (really) bad, and not expected (at least not after six relegations in a few years) to challenge again soon, which was the case with Rangers.