This game is good

[pocketspace]

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[pocketspace]

I am so frustrated because after all these months spent on watching videos, reading guides on this forum and on people's blogs, testing, trying different approaches and still don't have the result I want. I don't even know where I am doing wrong anymore.

[looping]

You are not alone.

[Lord Rowell]

I think you need to give more detail if you want people to help you.

Perhaps a screenshot of your tactic? Then tell us about specific problems you're having?

[herne79]

If you would like help, please have a read through this sticky and give us the detail we need to help you https://community.sigames.com/topic/264734-asking-for-help-please-read-this/

[pocketspace]

My patience level is reaching an upper end right now, I have tried numerous football styles, possession, high pressing, counter-attacking and nothing worked to an extent where it would satisfy my effort to understand this game. No matter what I do this game just wants to make me mad like that. It's just pointless because I can't seem to find the reason why I struggle with this game and it's always been like this since (FM15 last played) SI decided to make this more than a game and actually make game fans become some Guardiolas or Mourinhos in their free time.

[pocketspace]

35 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

I think you need to give more detail if you want people to help you.

Perhaps a screenshot of your tactic? Then tell us about specific problems you're having?

I did.

I was getting decent results in the pre-season, then the season started at Chelsea and guess what. 50 minutes passed, they led 6-0. How pathetic is that.

[herne79]

Please avoid making duplicate posts.  You may know you've raised this somewhere, but to the most of the rest of us this is a brand new thread.

I found this in the Stupid Questions thread:

So I have this tactic that I am working on atm.

 

 

My main concern is the space between my BBM, AMR and RB and I feel that sooner or later, that space will be exploited by a skillful player and will cause me sort of problems. What I have worked out so far is to move the AMR down to a MR position and give him an attack duty to try and replicate the IF-S.

 

 

I had to play around with the duties as I didn't want either flank to be too attacking so I ended up with that. Now thing is, if I wanted to keep the formation with the AMR, what could I do about that space?

[Lord Rowell]

That's really helpful thank you to all concerned.

1. You might want to look at your midfield. For starters, I'd shift the BBM player to the right in order to have potential cover for that gap. Then, I'd re-think that role - BBM's can get caught high up the pitch - you need someone who can give some cover to the FB (A). Perhaps a RPM? CM (S)? BWM? DLP (S)? In general, I think your midfield is very open.

2. A minor technical point. The CB on the right. I'd check he's right-footed because if he's turned when the FB is out of position, you need him to come across and be able to make the tackle.

3. Do make use of OIs. Its tricky to judge I know but give some thought and experiment with using OIs against attacking wide players on that side of the pitch. Against classic wingers, esp. if one-footed, you might want to get tight, show weaker foot, tackle hard. For those that cut inside, I tend to close down, weaker foot if possible, sometimes easy tackle if e.g. good dribbers but poor crossers. As for the attacking FBs you'll face against you, they might need to be closed down and this is where (1) might help.

If you can tell us your TIs as well that would be really good.

Btw I think FM16 is a really good game. I'm really scared to look at how many hours I've spent on it (and on FM in general...). I know the ME has its little issues but they all do - overall its a cracking representation of football and I really think there's a lot of knowledge under the bonnet of this game. Do stick with it it'll reward you in the end.

[looping]

I'm a hopeless case in tactics but even such an incompetent as me is able to identify that your hb sits between your cb when attacking. Both fb and wb will bomb forward more often than not. Your bbm will be almost inside the box.

This results in having a huge space between your  3 guys at back (cb-hb-cb) and the other players.

These 3 guys are the only ones staying back.

On top of this, you have control mentality which makes your players to be more attacking.

I only see you countered all time.

 

 

[pocketspace]

5 minutes ago, looping said:

I'm a hopeless case in tactics but even such an incompetent as me is able to identify that your hb sits between your cb when attacking. Both fb and wb will bomb forward more often than not. Your bbm will be almost inside the box.

This results in having a huge space between your  3 guys at back (cb-hb-cb) and the other players.

These 3 guys are the only ones staying back.

On top of this, you have control mentality which makes your players to be more attacking.

I only see you countered all time.

 

 

If you are hopeless then I might be beyond that and there's no point continuing to play the game.

 

Anyway, if you read through all the analysis on the internet, you'd see that Pochettino deployed Dembele as a box to box midfielder and Dier usually gets between the CBs, allowing the fullbacks to provide width. I have changed the box to box to a CN-S after I felt that he was getting in the way of my AM-A and it didn't change the outcome. 6-0 down to Chelsea in the opening day of the season. 

[Lord Rowell]

3 minutes ago, pocketspace said:

If you are hopeless then I might be beyond that and there's no point continuing to play the game.

 

Anyway, if you read through all the analysis on the internet, you'd see that Pochettino deployed Dembele as a box to box midfielder and Dier usually gets between the CBs, allowing the fullbacks to provide width. I have changed the box to box to a CN-S after I felt that he was getting in the way of my AM-A and it didn't change the outcome. 6-0 down to Chelsea in the opening day of the season. 

Keep going, you'll get there and all the fun is in the journey of getting there - speaking as someone who's played this game for, oh crumbs, 20 years I think, and have had plenty of my own disasters.

You presumably played "control" against Chelsea? Control means you're trying to attack an inferior team, Chelsea aren't inferior to you. Add to that what's been said about your midfield and defence (I agree with @looping ) and the result is not a surprise to me.

You mentioned the analysis on the internet. If you're trying to emulate Pochettino's tactics, can you post a link here? That way, together we all might be able to help put that together in FM16 terms in a way that will work.

 

[herne79]

Just to add one other observation - it's an unusual formation, any particular reason?  And if you are worried about the gap on the right, why not move the AMC back to MCR as an attacking midfielder to give you a more traditional 4123 formation and some extra defensive cover?

[pocketspace]

9 minutes ago, Lord Rowell said:

Keep going, you'll get there and all the fun is in the journey of getting there - speaking as someone who's played this game for, oh crumbs, 20 years I think, and have had plenty of my own disasters.

You presumably played "control" against Chelsea? Control means you're trying to attack an inferior team, Chelsea aren't inferior to you. Add to that what's been said about your midfield and defence (I agree with @looping ) and the result is not a surprise to me.

You mentioned the analysis on the internet. If you're trying to emulate Pochettino's tactics, can you post a link here? That way, together we all might be able to help put that together in FM16 terms in a way that will work.

 

http://theinsidechannel.com/a-guide-to-mauricio-pochettinos-tactics-at-totteham-hotspur/

 

This is the article I used, also I am a Tottenham fan so I watch them all the time and I know how I want my team to play.

 

@herne79 - Yes because I wanted to emulate Dier's role so I had to move him to DM to use the HB role, then I felt the gap was too big if I was using an IF on the right so I dropped it on the MR and told him to sit narrower.

[looping]

21 minutes ago, pocketspace said:

If you are hopeless then I might be beyond that and there's no point continuing to play the game.

 

Anyway, if you read through all the analysis on the internet, you'd see that Pochettino deployed Dembele as a box to box midfielder and Dier usually gets between the CBs, allowing the fullbacks to provide width. I have changed the box to box to a CN-S after I felt that he was getting in the way of my AM-A and it didn't change the outcome. 6-0 down to Chelsea in the opening day of the season. 

I'm not an expert in Tottenham, but I think Dier usually dropped to play out the defence (salida lavolpiana). When Tottenham is attacking in the opponents field, Dier is not between the cb anymore (he is in front of them). Am I right?

In that case, you could use a dlp-de who will perform exactly like I said.

You could also change the formation to a 4-3-3. You could still use a HB behind 2 midfielders (make sure both are not bombing forward because the huge gape will appear again).

You could also use a 4-2-3-1 but then you will probably need two holding midfielders (dlp-su+a static defensive role, for instance). If you place you dlp in the dm strata, I think he will drop between the cb.

With that said, it doesn't mean you will get good results. You need to watch the games in full and spot issues. In my opinion, nobody can help you with that.

If you can spot issues, then everything is fine and you will be given help to fix them.

[Lord Rowell]

@pocketspace I think you have 5 x TIs can you tell us them please?

[pocketspace]

10 minutes ago, looping said:

I'm not an expert in Tottenham, but I think Dier usually dropped to play out the defence (salida lavolpiana). When Tottenham is attacking in the opponents field, Dier is not between the cb anymore (he is in front of them). Am I right?

In that case, you could use a dlp-de who will perform exactly like I said.

You could also change the formation to a 4-3-3. You could still use a HB behind 2 midfielders (make sure both are not bombing forward because the huge gape will appear again).

You could also use a 4-2-3-1 but then you will probably need two holding midfielders (dlp-su+a static defensive role, for instance). If you place you dlp in the dm strata, I think he will drop between the cb.

Yes, Dier often drops between the CB to offer another passing option in case the opponent presses high which should free Alderweireld of man marking and make him available for the pass. When Spurs are attacking he is acting more like a Anchorman + Defensive Midfielder hybrid.

 

My initial though was to use the 4-2-3-1 formation obviously but because of Dier's role I though a Halfback would do exactly that so therefore my formation edit.

DLP-D might work as you say, although I never knew that he drops between the CBs, but he would see the ball more often than usual and Dier is not exactly a very technical player.

 

@Lord Rowell - Yes they are right there, Close Down More, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Lower Tempo, Play Out of Defence (not quite necessary as Control already do that) and Use Offside Trap.

[looping]

You can tell Dier to pass it shorter PI, so he will make simple passes to more creative players.

[Lord Rowell]

OK I'm going to try and hold a load of stuff in my tiny brain while I write this, bear with me.

1. Your basic shape. I think you need Dier in the 2nd band i.e. just in front of the back 4. FM doesn't quite do 2nd band players bombing forward as yet so in this game your formation needs to have Dembele in the 3rd band as a BBM. From that article, the roles tend to vary but the consistent theme is the deep lying midfielder. I don't see this as a HB. After that, you could put an AM in band 3 or band 4 - personally I'd go band 3 given you are likely to use a BBM. So 4-1-2-3 wide in the first instance.

2. Re. pressing. Control already gives you high closing down and a high line. That's enough. You don't need a TI of closing down. I'm also not sure why you've got prevent short GK there - I would only use that in specific situations or unless you want an extreme high block and that isn't what's described here.

3. A lot is said in the article about lateral movement. I'd use the TI Roam from positions to implement that.

4. Pochettino uses aggressive passing. So think about your passing settings. Tbh I think when on "control" the effect is TOO direct so shorter pass / lower tempo in that context is still fine, but I'd probably remove "play out of defence" - its one I'd only use in specific situations as if the AI presses you it can be a disaster.

5. You have Eriksen as a wide, AP. Now for me this is slightly a role issue / ME issue but what this means is as your only playmaker, your team will focus their passing on him. If for any reason they can't get the ball to him you're in trouble. I'd either have 2, 3, or 4 playmakers that give you multiple outlets, or give Eriksen a different role e.g. IF with tweaked PIs.

For all that, if you play attacking / control against a top side, whoever you are you run risks and might need to be more cautious in your approach, be prepared to change mid-match - otherwise you risk more 6-0 mullerings.

Hope that is of some help to you.

[pocketspace]

1. What exactly is band 1/2/3?

2. To prevent the opposition building from the back. I've seen it happen at least a few times and I think it's a Pochettino perk.

3. I don't know much about the movement in game so I decided to avoid doing anything that could further do damage.

4. I have used lower tempo and I was going to remove Play out of Defence as the Control mentality already sets the defenders passing to be short.

5. Yeah but honestly I can't see anyone else being a playmaker in the team other than Eriksen. Maybe Lamela. Not sure how the team would do with two playmakers in wider areas.

 

And yeah it was helpful, especially the mentality against top sides, something I've already known but I was too stubborn to change. I still think it's a bit too much even if Spurs would play an attacking football on Stamford Bridge against Chelsea, I doubt they'd get hammered 6-0 by the 50th minute.

[Lord Rowell]

@pocketspace

Re. Q1.

Analysts often talk about formations having different bands, or horizontal lines.

So, defence is 1st band, DM line is 2nd band, CM / WM line is 3rd band, and so on, in this instance.

Re. the thrashing, I'll revive a painful memory for you, and this was at home!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/25287554

[pocketspace]

I just happened to have written a long post and this internet just crashed when I clicked submit, oh my god.

 

I'll just write a summary. I have created this tactic, based on herne's suggestion, 4-1-2-3. Filtered the TIs based on your guys suggestions. I wasn't decided at first about a few things so I just started the fullbacks as WB (S) before switching Rose to a FB (A) as I felt Eriksen was often too centrally and there needed someone to be wide to get the ball.

Alli theoretically should have been a CM (A) but I thought he and Lamela might get in each other's way so I switched him to a AP (A). I might test with a CM (A) and Play Wider TI, but not sure how close is that to Pochettino's system. I need advice here.

Kane started as CF (S) but he was often too high up on the pitch so I changed his role to DF (S) and added a few PIs to emulate his role in real life better.

 

http://imgur.com/a/zyf3i

 

Thing is I struggle against defensive teams. Always did. I don't know what I should do. I know there needs to be movement, support, width, creativity and penetration but I am not quite sure in terms of FM how to do that.

Secondly, in the first two pics of Eriksen passing to Kane and Kane taking a shot, players are not rushing forward quick enough to provide support for him. That's an old problem I've had in FM15, not so much in FM16, so it's still a bit of an unknown universe for me.

I still have to keep an eye on the fullbacks and have cover for them. I intend to do a 2-2 at the back when the team goes forward, aka the double pivot, but I still want Dembele to support the play.

I am looking to alternate between Flexible and Structured, as I learnt that Structured make my CMs slightly more defensive oriented while the advanced players are more attacking and I actually want Alli to be more attacking.

[looping]

When you want to attack a camped defence, you need a highly mobile offence 

Against a defence thats got a dm he will run into a roadblock. The moment they go defensive he will see walls. 

When you set up a tactic think about how the players are going to move. When you have a lone forward, it becomes even more challenging. 

The best course of action would be to look at the system and ask one fundamental question? Why is everyone running to the middle for, against a stacked defence?

remember you need to look at your 3c entral midfielders closely as well, are their roles/duties enough for them to be effective support players. 

maybe change  the IF(S) to W(S) to offer a bit more width. 

 

The dismisser.
 

Pocketspace, could you please let me know if this answer helped you? Be honest. No matter the answer.

 

[pocketspace]

17 minutes ago, looping said:

When you want to attack a camped defence, you need a highly mobile offence 

Against a defence thats got a dm he will run into a roadblock. The moment they go defensive he will see walls. 

When you set up a tactic think about how the players are going to move. When you have a lone forward, it becomes even more challenging. 

The best course of action would be to look at the system and ask one fundamental question? Why is everyone running to the middle for, against a stacked defence?

remember you need to look at your 3c entral midfielders closely as well, are their roles/duties enough for them to be effective support players. 

maybe change  the IF(S) to W(S) to offer a bit more width. 

 

The dismisser.
 

Pocketspace, could you please let me know if this answer helped you? Be honest. No matter the answer.

 

Yeah I know what you mean, thing is I do not really want to make a significant change of my football style just because a team defends deep against me. I mean, I know, especially with wide players cutting inside it's going to be a big stack of players in the central area of the pitch which is always hard to break down.