My 5-1-3-1 with Schalke is terrible

[Chris2509]

Can someone help me understand what's wrong with my tactic?

I wanted to try something new. In my vision we should be sitting deep, winning the ball in our own half and then launching long balls from the back and initiating quick transition attacks...but on the pitch it's nothing like I want it to be and it's actually depressing to watch. Medicore teams dominate us, we concede lots of shots and corners. We don't win balls high enough to initiate counter attacks. It feels like it takes a miracle for us to score a goal. 

 

 

stats against Freiburg, one of the weakest teams in the league:

 

[HUNT3R]

Three things stand out, just from quickly looking.

1 - You want to sit deep, but selected 4 players up top. The formation you choose is your defensive shape, so if you want to be deep, move players back a strata.

2 - Later you mention winning the ball high up the pitch? So are you wanting to sit deep or win the ball high up?

3 - You basically have one midfielder, the DM. He's going to get swamped by 2 or 3 midfielders that he needs to cover.

[tyler16]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

Three things stand out, just from quickly looking.

1 - You want to sit deep, but selected 4 players up top. The formation you choose is your defensive shape, so if you want to be deep, move players back a strata.

2 - Later you mention winning the ball high up the pitch? So are you wanting to sit deep or win the ball high up?

3 - You basically have one midfielder, the DM. He's going to get swamped by 2 or 3 midfielders that he needs to cover.

Basically this. I don't understand the shape you're going for at all. You're going to be overrun in the midfield which will lead to lesser teams bossing the run of play quite easily. I'd suggest something much more simple such as a 4-4-2 with two players high up the pitch to hit back quickly if that's what you really want to see. Keep in mind this requires a certain style of player, though.

Additionally, maybe consider changing the mentality you're on. If you want to play high tempo primarily counter may not suit what you're looking for.

[Craigus89]

Do some reading about 5 at the back formations that use Wingbacks. They are there to provide the width and you very rarely (if ever!) see them paired with wide forwards like you have. One of the main advantages of using Wingbacks and 3 central defenders is extra numbers in midfield, which you have less of.

[summatsupeer]

6 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

Three things stand out, just from quickly looking.

1 - You want to sit deep, but selected 4 players up top. The formation you choose is your defensive shape, so if you want to be deep, move players back a strata.

2 - Later you mention winning the ball high up the pitch? So are you wanting to sit deep or win the ball high up?

3 - You basically have one midfielder, the DM. He's going to get swamped by 2 or 3 midfielders that he needs to cover.

Just to add to this.

Your playing Structured, which means your deeper players focus more on defending and your advanced players more on attacking, so they will not drop as much defensively.

Your AMC is attack duty which further reduces how often he will drop to help defend, leaving that DMC a lot of players to cover.

Playing Counter mentality means your deeper players will play a bit more direct to get the ball forward sooner and the forward players play a bit shorter so they can work the ball around.  You've then added More Direct on top plus have two BPD, 44% pass completion is very low for your defence, giving the ball away 56 times out of 100 passes.  I would also check your goalkeepers distribution settings.

[Chris2509]

Thank you all for your help!

I now understand that my formation was irrational and that I can't expect any other outcome with so many attacking players. I allowed way too much free space in the center.

After reading the comments and doing some rethinking, this is what I came up with:

 

I gave up on one center back so I can have an extra man in the defensive midfield. 

The wingers were dropped to the ML and MR positions to offer more defensive cover. 

 

The reason I'm using "close down more" and "get stuck in" is to increase our chances of winning balls in dangerous positions - but I still expect us to be tough to break down, having so many players at the back and playing with "counter" and "structured".

 

I went back to the first matchday and replayed the first weeks, results are more reasonable now:

 

 

I'm still not 100% happy but this is much closer to what I expect to see from my tactic.

We concede very few shots on target and we have at least a couple of dangerous counter attacks in every match.

 

 

My CB's pass completion ratio is just 40-45%, but I went over some of their intercepted passes, and many of them were in fact clearences, not passes - so I'm not sure whether I should be concerned with this number.

 

My GK completes only 33% of his passes. Some of them get headed by an opposition player and we win the ball back immediately - but many balls are still simply given away.

Would it be smart to ask him to pass to the center backs? I still want him to try long balls if there's a good option for a counter attack.

 

My ML and MR are some of the worst passers in the formation as well. Both positions hover around 60%.

They often try to find my TM-S without success. Not sure what to do about it.

 

 

[Chris2509]

bump

[herne79]

You've basically got two teams.  Team A is a team of 9 players all tooling around in your own half with the two wingers making the odd run down the flanks.  Team B are your two strikers who are so far up the pitch away from Team A that they barely recognise each other.

All Team A are trying to do is punt long balls to Team B because of 1) the distance between the two teams; 2) you are using a Target Man which encourages this behaviour; and 3) your team instructions.  In other words, "here you go you two, have the ball and let us know how you get on with it".  This also explains your poor pass completion rates.

I'm putting this in a jokey manner of course, but hopefully you get the point.  Nobody is really getting up in support of your two strikers.

[HUNT3R]

Building off Herne's post, what's the reason for More Direct passing and also the Higher Tempo? Who's upfield to receive these passes when you work the ball forward so quickly? 2 players only. Your entire formation is deep, so why get it forward quickly if there's no counter attack on?