How do I analyze situations?

[Karnack]

Hello community!

I've been struggling very very hard during FM16 to get any sort of consistent results and I'm simply out of ideas. The thing about FM for me has always been to fiddle with my own tactics, find players that suit my philosophy and in general build clubs up with my own DNA. This year I have failed.

My main problem as I see it is to actually understand what I see on the pitch and in the stats and do the right things to improve the things I don't like. I just can't do it. So I need help.

So a typical game for me would end up something like this one (I'm Liverpool):

 

Plenty of shots for me, few against me. Not that many CCCs but I try not to stare myself blind on that statistic as in this game Sturridge took a volley from 5 meters completely clean in the box and shot it straight in the keeper. It was not counted as a CCC.

The game ended 1-1.

My shots to the right and Watfords to the left.

 

I always have the question in my head that is "Sure you got a lot of shots but are they quality shots or are they desperate shots?". But form what I was seeing in the ME there were plenty of REALLY good opportunities but they all fired straight to the keeper or way of target, despite being very clear on goal.

Granted, Watfords keeper got PoM, but this seem to happen to me very often, which indicates that my strikers somehow always tend to get poor chances.

So the question is, when I see something like this (which is against most bottom/middle teams) how do I analyse it? 
What should I look at after a game like this?
Why is it that the opponents GK is often one of the best players on the pitch when I play teams like this?

I just feel lost. I can't translate what I'm seeing into anything remotely close to a fix.

[Keyzer Soze]

Well,

A couple of things:

1) Sometimes we just have those games where the opponent keeper stops everything no matter what. It happens IRL, it happens in FM, despite having a good time, a good tactic.

2) It would help alot, if you could tell us your tactic, how do you play. Tactic, roles, instructions.

[maztheplaya]

When playing against smaller teams they tend to be more defensive. This leads to a crowded final third. Also the information your provided can't show us exactly how the game was. And we dont know how your team is setup.

But going for a more general approach. I would first see what players are taking the shots and then checking what kind of shots are they taking and work from that. The general advice when playing a smaller side is to slow down the tempo and stretch the play. Use the adequate instructions to get these things in how your team plays.

Also if one player has a lot of shots and he has an off day you might have problems. This doesn't have anything to do with your opponents, but with how you set up the tactic, it being 1 dimensional in terms of attacking and scoring goals. Reffer to Lines and Diamonds for a lot more details on the various way of attacking.

[Karnack]

Thanks for the replies!

This is my team setup:

The first one is intended to be a bit less risky. Trying to take less risk but still be urgent about the ball. IF and Winger should both provide and score. Mainly the IF have been scoring a fair amount of goals. F9 is something I just started trying and I don't think it's working very well. 

The second is more risk, more attacking with creativity in the final third from the AP. 

So a more patient approach against deep teams? More patient passing and focus on being creative in the right moments?

[Keyzer Soze]

Well, 

the first tactic is just too defesiven, isn't it?

Defensive mentality, one DM with defensive duty plus one guy in the midfield also with defensive duty.

You just have one player running from the midfield, but with the defensive mentality he will be so deep in the field that he will take forever to reach the box.

But, the, for some reason you said your team to play with higher tempo.

To be honest, the first tactic it's a real mess!

I just can't see much sence from the mentality + team instructions + players roles. 

 

The second tactic, i don't really like the AP(a) + F9 combination. The F9 it's kinda of a playmaker forward, so with the AP with attacking duty i think they could end up doing the same thing. I would probably change the AP(a) to a CM(a) or a Shadow Striker to get more advantage of the F9 pulling the opponents defense.

In the midfield i you probably change the position of the CM(s)+BWM(d), so that the more defesinve player would play in the same side of the attacking wingback. But i would also probably change the BWM(d) for a more static player like a DLP(d) or a CM(d). The BWM(d) leaves too much his position.

But apart from that, i like the tactic.

[hoppo1982]

17 hours ago, maztheplaya said:

When playing against smaller teams they tend to be more defensive. This leads to a crowded final third. Also the information your provided can't show us exactly how the game was. And we dont know how your team is setup.

But going for a more general approach. I would first see what players are taking the shots and then checking what kind of shots are they taking and work from that. The general advice when playing a smaller side is to slow down the tempo and stretch the play. Use the adequate instructions to get these things in how your team plays.

Also if one player has a lot of shots and he has an off day you might have problems. This doesn't have anything to do with your opponents, but with how you set up the tactic, it being 1 dimensional in terms of attacking and scoring goals. Reffer to Lines and Diamonds for a lot more details on the various way of attacking.

Slow down the tempo ?

 

I would have thought slowing the tempo would give the opposition time to set themselves ?

I normally widen the play , reduce down the mentality (from control to standard for example) and increase the tempo.

If i trust my players decision making etc i might increase from fluid to very fluid etc

[facman]

On thing I've heard anecdotally is that if you are taking lots of shots early in a game, most of which get blocked or saved, the opposition will get more confident, leading them to play better... this can result in the oft-lamented 'goalkeeper bug', where the opposition goalie gets PoM and saves everything! I try to avoid that by always having 'Work Ball into box' ticked for a patient, Control-style possession tactic. That way my team try to fashion good chances before shooting, resulting in fewer shots on the goal, but better chances.

For example, I was playing against Spurs in my last game and only had 13 shots (5 on target, 7 off target, 1 blocked), but 3 of them were CCC and I scored twice.

[Karnack]

3 hours ago, Keyzer Soze said:

Well, 

the first tactic is just too defesiven, isn't it?

Defensive mentality, one DM with defensive duty plus one guy in the midfield also with defensive duty.

You just have one player running from the midfield, but with the defensive mentality he will be so deep in the field that he will take forever to reach the box.

But, the, for some reason you said your team to play with higher tempo.

To be honest, the first tactic it's a real mess!

I just can't see much sence from the mentality + team instructions + players roles. 

 

The second tactic, i don't really like the AP(a) + F9 combination. The F9 it's kinda of a playmaker forward, so with the AP with attacking duty i think they could end up doing the same thing. I would probably change the AP(a) to a CM(a) or a Shadow Striker to get more advantage of the F9 pulling the opponents defense.

In the midfield i you probably change the position of the CM(s)+BWM(d), so that the more defesinve player would play in the same side of the attacking wingback. But i would also probably change the BWM(d) for a more static player like a DLP(d) or a CM(d). The BWM(d) leaves too much his position.

But apart from that, i like the tactic.

I see what you mean, but from a lot of post I've read regarding mentality it is fully possible to be attacking but still going with a Defensive mentality. The idea with using Defensive is basically to make the players stop taking so many risks. Instead focus on defending and attack when the opposition makes a mistake. The odd thing is that thats the tactic I've had most success with. 

I have probably misunderstood a lot of the threads I've read about mentality etc and to be honest this set of instructions is something that basically have come into existence because of desperation. At first I try to setup a tactic the way I want to play it. Usually Attacking mentality, with high tempo and some 4231 version of a formation. When I pick choices that I feel are logical, like pressing hard and go fast towards the goal in an attacking mentality I always get slaughtered. This variation have actually given me stability in the back and I still create a lot of chances. But as seen in the Watford example, few actually hit the net.

My point is that I agree it makes little sense, even for me, but those tactics I've created where I think it is logical choices I always end up losing against everything. Thats why I wanted to know in more general terms how I should analyze situations and what kind of fixes solves what kind of problems. Because my logic is not giving me any results. The only tactics giving me results are tactics that I would consider mad.

I might have to accept that this game requires more mental capacity than I seem capable of muster

That said, I appreciate your input and I will try them asap!

[herne79]

@Karnack You're correct, mentality is about risk.

You mention the Attacking mentality as an example, which is a high risk mentality.  So by default you play with a high def line, lots of pressing, high tempo, direct passing by the forwards and so on.

I think where your logic may start to leave you is when you then add in additional tactical settings and player roles that increase this risk to the extent where it becomes risk overload and opposition teams pick you apart.  But on the flip side you're now finding that using a more defensive mentality (ie., low risk) as a foundation upon which you then layer on "risk" from tactical settings and player roles is giving you a more stable base.  At first this might seem counter-intuitive but once you understand the risks involved in these settings (which it sounds like you are now), the fog clears and you begin to see the logic in it.

[Keyzer Soze]

46 minutes ago, Karnack said:

I see what you mean, but from a lot of post I've read regarding mentality it is fully possible to be attacking but still going with a Defensive mentality. The idea with using Defensive is basically to make the players stop taking so many risks. Instead focus on defending and attack when the opposition makes a mistake. The odd thing is that thats the tactic I've had most success with. 

This is absolutly true.

You can have a attacking tactic with a defensive mentality, because like you said mentality it's all about risk taking.

The problem is that you set a low risk mentality, but then give instructions to play with more risk (like the higher tempo, play offside, etc), and then choose roles and duties that are more related to play defensively.

It seems that you are trying to achive something but going through a much more complex path.

 

[Karnack]

@herne79 @Keyzer Soze: Much food for thought. Very much appreciated. I actually think what you said gave me some valuable information. The fog is not cleared just yet, but I have a bunch of things I want to try once I get back to my computer. 

Thanks!

[Karnack]

After your advice I took a long hard look at my defensive tactic and came up with this.

First I removed most of the instructions I consider risky. I left Be More Expressive as I want them to go creative now when we can't rely on speed.

I put a CF-A and changed the winger to A to be more willing to go into the box. I also put in a RPM to make sure I have someone creating roaming around.

I still can't tell if all my changes are logical, but I do see improvement in this. 2-1 against Chelsea away, they only had 2 shots on goal all game and got a pretty lucky own goal against me.

Also beat Grasshopper who pretty much had 8 defenders and won 3-0 against an average Sunderland side.

@Keyzer Soze: Still a complete mess or an improvement?

[Keyzer Soze]

@Karnack

I like the roles and duties. They all seem pretty balanced. 

In attack you are asking too much from you CF(a), because he will be your only threat to the goal, so you better have a good player there.

 

About your TI's... 

Retain Possession + Work Ball Into Box + Short Passing + Play from Defense and on top Defensive mentality.

So you are telling your players to, play with minimum risk, with very slow tempo and with very short passes. Your players will be very patience.

I guess you probably will have some problems against well organize defensives.

Give it a go for a few more games  

[looping]

50 minutes ago, Karnack said:

After your advice I took a long hard look at my defensive tactic and came up with this.

First I removed most of the instructions I consider risky. I left Be More Expressive as I want them to go creative now when we can't rely on speed.

I put a CF-A and changed the winger to A to be more willing to go into the box. I also put in a RPM to make sure I have someone creating roaming around.

I still can't tell if all my changes are logical, but I do see improvement in this. 2-1 against Chelsea away, they only had 2 shots on goal all game and got a pretty lucky own goal against me.

Also beat Grasshopper who pretty much had 8 defenders and won 3-0 against an average Sunderland side.

@Keyzer Soze: Still a complete mess or an improvement?

I would change  IF instead AP. AP and RPM same flank... An IF would be more a goal threat and will help your lone striker. He will still cut inside and leave space for your wb.

Your TI will only result in lots of useless possession.

Retain possession, short passing, PoD and Work ball I think is too much. Defensive mentality has already short passing upfront. Do you need more short passing in the final third?

Play out the defence makes sense to me because low mentalities have direct passing at back.

I don't know how the be more expressive shout works so if I wanted creativity+short passing I would just go to fluid mentality. 

You will probably have problems in transition with defensive and fluid, so not a bad idea to change mentality to counter, which is not very different to defensive buy may help with that.

 

[maztheplaya]

9 hours ago, hoppo1982 said:

Slow down the tempo ?

 

I would have thought slowing the tempo would give the opposition time to set themselves ?

I normally widen the play , reduce down the mentality (from control to standard for example) and increase the tempo.

If i trust my players decision making etc i might increase from fluid to very fluid etcâ

The kind of setup I described in my post is already trying to be set for much of the game, they wont risk playing a higher line or closing down more.

Sure a high tempo and lowered mentality might help you catch them when they are not set a couple of times. But using a lower tempo with a wider play, will allow you to stretch them and create space in their defense, since such an opponent will most likely not care for possession.

[Karnack]

Definitely some problems with breaking down organized defences. Won 5 in a row now but by no more than a single goal. Only let in 2 in 7 games. So the defensive platform is solid, just need to improve the attack.

Tried pushing up to a counter mentality as @looping suggested and it worked wonders in some games where we just didn't look capable of breaking down defences. Swansea up next, will try let the team push a bit harder and dont waste as much time. Trying Counter and probably removing the retain possession. We shall see.