Players clueless about their performances.

[Neldot]

Hi everyone.

I'm 5 years into the future coaching Napoli. The team goes very well, we have won 3 Serie A in a row, 2 ELs and my first CL. I was able to raise the financial level of the team and to buy a lot of young talented players to raise, and some seasoned good players to play the backbone of the team and to tutor youngsters. However, what bothers me it's not the overall team performance, that is very good, but the single player's performances.

 

Very often, when a player performs well enough (vote 8 or 9), and I praise him, he says that he didn't do anything special, and his morale decreases.

On the other side, almost everytime that a player performs badly (vote 6 or less), and I scold him for the bad performance, he says that he performed very well and he didn't deserve the telling-off (and his moral decreases too).

The same thing happens when I talk with players on loan about their performance.

Now, I can't believe that players are so clueless about their performance. Am I doing something wrong? Or there is simply a bug in players dialogues about their performance?

[Cougar2010]

Quote

Very often, when a player performs well enough (vote 8 or 9), and I praise him, he says that he didn't do anything special, and his morale decreases.

If this happens it shows the player has high standards, probably has high levels of professionalism, determination etc which is a good thing.

You should be adapting your conversations in light of how players respond so for players like the above you should be aware that he has high standards when you speak to him in the future.

You should also be aware that praising a player too much can also lead to complacency and have a negative affect on his hidden attributes & performances.

 

20 minutes ago, Neldot said:

On the other side, almost everytime that a player performs badly (vote 6 or less), and I scold him for the bad performance, he says that he performed very well and he didn't deserve the telling-off (and his moral decreases too).

A couple of reasons for this.

A) Opposite side of the coin from the above, the player might have much lower standards & respond poorly to criticism indicating poor hidden attributes (Low level of professionalism etc).

or possibly

B) He actually did ok but made a mistake that led to a goal which dropped his rating to <6.  Its a bit of a bug IMO in the relationship between the ratings & other areas of the game.

 

So overall I suspect you have a mix of some bugs & some misunderstanding in terms of a player's mentality.

[Neldot]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

If this happens it shows the player has high standards, probably has high levels of professionalism, determination etc which is a good thing.

You should be adapting your conversations in light of how players respond so for players like the above you should be aware that he has high standards when you speak to him in the future.

You should also be aware that praising a player too much can also lead to complacency and have a negative affect on his hidden attributes & performances.

 

A couple of reasons for this.

A) Opposite side of the coin from the above, the player might have much lower standards & respond poorly to criticism indicating poor hidden attributes (Low level of professionalism etc).

or possibly

B) He actually did ok but made a mistake that led to a goal which dropped his rating to <6.  Its a bit of a bug IMO in the relationship between the ratings & other areas of the game.

 

So overall I suspect you have a mix of some bugs & some misunderstanding in terms of a player's mentality.

Thank you, very useful tips on approaching players. However, it's not so easy to remember how the player reacted previously (I have a 25 players team that rotate regularly), so I better take some notes of their reaction.

Regarding complacency and not appraising too much the players, is there a way to know how many times is too many times?

 

Thanks again!

[Cougar2010]

1 minute ago, Neldot said:

Regarding complacency and not appraising too much the players, is there a way to know how many times is too many times?

Not really & I guess it will depend on the player's personality to some degree.

I usually err on the side of caution & rarely praise a player unless its an outstanding performance.  In terms of poor performances I normally warn for anything less than say 6.3 providing they haven't made a mistake that led to a goal.  If they did I would if it was less than say 5.6

 

[doucong]

4 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

If this happens it shows the player has high standards, probably has high levels of professionalism, determination etc which is a good thing.

You should be adapting your conversations in light of how players respond so for players like the above you should be aware that he has high standards when you speak to him in the future.

You should also be aware that praising a player too much can also lead to complacency and have a negative affect on his hidden attributes & performances.

 

A couple of reasons for this.

A) Opposite side of the coin from the above, the player might have much lower standards & respond poorly to criticism indicating poor hidden attributes (Low level of professionalism etc).

or possibly

B) He actually did ok but made a mistake that led to a goal which dropped his rating to <6.  Its a bit of a bug IMO in the relationship between the ratings & other areas of the game.

 

So overall I suspect you have a mix of some bugs & some misunderstanding in terms of a player's mentality.

I feel this is not us not understanding the game but the game misrepresent itself.

I think unless the player apparently did bad and we praise him(i.e. he made a own goal and I said your shoot is good today), he shouldn't decrease moral(if he have high standard then maybe no change). A couple of time my CB make a assist(which is very rare) and I just want to walk in and say hi boy good pass today, but turn out he think his pass is not good and loss moral(why take so serious?).

Similar thing happen to team talk, I suspect many of us have no clue how to make an effective team talk, as I messed up maybe more then success so in the end we just leave these functions and it become useless.

[Neldot]

2 minutes ago, doucong said:

I feel this is not us not understanding the game but the game misrepresent itself.

 

Well. I agree with you. It's exactly how I feel about player talk and team talk. It doesn't feel as a realistic representation of real football talk, it feels more as you must learn a way to exploit the game mechanics.

[Pingdinho]

1 hour ago, Neldot said:

Well. I agree with you. It's exactly how I feel about player talk and team talk. It doesn't feel as a realistic representation of real football talk, it feels more as you must learn a way to exploit the game mechanics.

I can understand why a player would feel this way. For me, I think the logic of the interactions is generally sound, it's just the game doesn't quite give you all the feedback information you need and the options are obviously much more limited than in 'real life' interactions.

I only recently managed to get a better handle on interactions recently after reading thus forum.

[bastoshaq]

I used to take lots of team talks but they usually backfire. Even the one when you are almost to win the title and the game gives you the option to talk to the squad and say something like "we are almost there, lets not let the title run away" or "no matter the outcome, the season was good". And both ways backfired with teams that are always title contenders. To be honest I don't do any press, team talks, or answer to any rumors. The assistance manager is payed for something!

[martplfc1]

Why speak to a player at all if his morale is good? I only speak to them when it's low. Always start by praising his attitude in training, never had a negative response to that.

 

[talhak]

On 9/26/2016 at 12:25, Cougar2010 said:

You should also be aware that praising a player too much can also lead to complacency and have a negative affect on his hidden attributes & performances.

Can you share which hidden attributes are they? If he responses good, isn't praising his performance a good thing? How can it have a negative effect? @Cougar2010

[Cougar2010]

26 minutes ago, talhak said:

Can you share which hidden attributes are they? If he responses good, isn't praising his performance a good thing? How can it have a negative effect? @Cougar2010

If your boss praises you how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a week how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a month how do you feel?

 

As I understand, which might be wrong as I can't find the thread, players have three mental states which alter depending on various factors (Media comments, team talks, results, comments by other managers etc).  One is morale which you can see while the other two are hidden.  One is complacency/focus & I can't remember the third.

Initially praising a player makes them feel happy & improves morale but if you praise them all the time then it becomes a bit boring, they stop listening and complacency is increased because they feel like they don't have to do much to earn the praise therefore don't try as hard on the pitch.  Over sustained longer periods I believe this can lead to attributes such as determination & professionalism reducing but thats more theory and I haven't seen anyone actually show that.

[talhak]

6 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

If your boss praises you how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a week how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a month how do you feel?

 

As I understand, which might be wrong as I can't find the thread, players have three mental states which alter depending on various factors (Media comments, team talks, results, comments by other managers etc).  One is morale which you can see while the other two are hidden.  One is complacency/focus & I can't remember the third.

Initially praising a player makes them feel happy & improves morale but if you praise them all the time then it becomes a bit boring, they stop listening and complacency is increased because they feel like they don't have to do much to earn the praise therefore don't try as hard on the pitch.  Over sustained longer periods I believe this can lead to attributes such as determination & professionalism reducing but thats more theory and I haven't seen anyone actually show that.

So how can we determine the point that praises are going to work anymore when the player always reacts positive as I asked you in the previous post?

 

If your boss praises you how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a week how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a month how do you feel?

- All of them have the same answer: No problem as long as if I play well & feel I deserve the praise. Otherwise, as it happens in the game, I react. I think you got the point. @Cougar2010

[Cougar2010]

32 minutes ago, talhak said:

So how can we determine the point that praises are going to work anymore when the player always reacts positive as I asked you in the previous post?

You are wrong here, you are presuming that green is always good & red is always bad.

That isn't the case and there have been many threads over the last couple of years discussing that.

Have a look at the assistant manager team talk reaction screen after a match and you can see the actual results of your talks.

 

 

32 minutes ago, talhak said:

 

If your boss praises you how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a week how do you feel?

If your boss praises you every day for a month how do you feel?

- All of them have the same answer: No problem as long as if I play well & feel I deserve the praise. Otherwise, as it happens in the game, I react. I think you got the point. @Cougar2010

No, the answer isn't the same for each one.  You feel differently, its human nature and FM reflects that.

[talhak]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

You are wrong here, you are presuming that green is always good & red is always bad.

That isn't the case and there have been many threads over the last couple of years discussing that.

Have a look at the assistant manager team talk reaction screen after a match and you can see the actual results of your talks.

 

 

No, the answer isn't the same for each one.  You feel differently, its human nature and FM reflects that.

If I felt differently, why I commented like that?  I write what I feel - thankfully I do not have any problem with it. Anyway hopefully we will have better understanding with FM17.

[Fer Fuchs Ake]

Never speak to a high-peforming player if his morale is superb, it can either stay the same or go lower. I rarely speak to players unless they've won something.

 

[RBKalle]

The lesson is: reduce private chats to a minimum

In the early days of FM14 (IIRC), I had the silly idea of criticizing a newly signed CB following an abysmal performance. He didn't take it well and things escalated to the point I had to release him as the relationship had been compromised beyond repair.

All of that with a mere FIVE clicks

And team meetings are a very dangerous coin-flip.

Unless there is a very serious situation (like a drastic form dip right at the end of the season, with the title/objective in jeopardy) it's better to avoid the altogether and stick to press conferences and pre-game team-talks to keep morale to a reasonable level.

Same for players. Post-game praises are enough, ditto for criticism, except, again, for truly awful performances in key matches.

[Earnie is God!]

On 26/09/2016 at 10:30, Neldot said:

Regarding complacency and not appraising too much the players, is there a way to know how many times is too many times?

I only praise match performances of 9.0 and above and only if I haven't praised him in the past month.
From my experience, if you praise a player more than once a month, his reaction isn't as welcoming as it perhaps should be. He still might respond well enough to it but will then also add in the line "I'm sure you'll want me for something else soon." which I see as a negative.

[Wells]

I never had that issue myself, though I only do it if the assistant tells me to praise certain player after their performance and turns out to be working, no morale drop.

However the biggest issue I have is, when I get promoted with a team that wasn't expected to, the end of season meeting turns out to be disaster, no matter which option you choose and this is really pathetic.. I mean come on, say I play for Rotherham, then we got promoted to EPL, why should I feel a let down? 

[Earnie is God!]

Team meetings are more often than not awkward at best. Most of the time there isn't a right thing to say to them, with almost all of the options producing negative responses.
I try to avoid them unless I have no choice.
It's been acknowledged that it is an area of the game that needs work so I'm hoping this is vastly improved in FM17.

 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 29/09/2016 at 21:16, talhak said:

If I felt differently, why I commented like that?  I write what I feel - thankfully I do not have any problem with it. Anyway hopefully we will have better understanding with FM17.

Yeah, for you, but the FM players aren't all you.

 

Say, I'd be happy with being praised. But if you praised me every week, I'd think you're taking the **** or you're being patronising. And if you're doing it every day for a month, I'd get annoyed because you're praising me for doing the basics rather than for going above or beyond - in my eyes because if I'm banging out 9/10 performances every day in a month, that's my normal level.

 

If I suffer a form drop to 5/10 for three games and then bounce back with a 9/10 and you praised me, I'd appreciate it more as you've recognised my form dipping and me doing something to claw it back. Though some people will get arsey about that, because they still feel that a 9/10 is a standard performance and your praising them is only reminding them that they were crap in the last few matches. - I played with a player like that, honestly man-managing that guy was impossible but you knew he was going to put his balls on the line cos he refused to accept anything but a 9/10 performance. XD

[talhak]

18 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Yeah, for you, but the FM players aren't all you.

 

Say, I'd be happy with being praised. But if you praised me every week, I'd think you're taking the **** or you're being patronising. And if you're doing it every day for a month, I'd get annoyed because you're praising me for doing the basics rather than for going above or beyond - in my eyes because if I'm banging out 9/10 performances every day in a month, that's my normal level.

 

If I suffer a form drop to 5/10 for three games and then bounce back with a 9/10 and you praised me, I'd appreciate it more as you've recognised my form dipping and me doing something to claw it back. Though some people will get arsey about that, because they still feel that a 9/10 is a standard performance and your praising them is only reminding them that they were crap in the last few matches. - I played with a player like that, honestly man-managing that guy was impossible but you knew he was going to put his balls on the line cos he refused to accept anything but a 9/10 performance. XD

So the question is that how to determine the way we should keep while interacting with different players? Which personalities are more open to praise or criticize? How to determine the right frequency of individual player interaction? More things are needed to be revealed.

[Cougar2010]

8 minutes ago, talhak said:

So the question is that how to determine the way we should keep while interacting with different players? Which personalities are more open to praise or criticize? How to determine the right frequency of individual player interaction? More things are needed to be revealed.

Sorry you want SI to give you a walk through guide on how to interact with the players???

How to determine - Play the game, make choices, make notes (either mentally or physically), adapt your talks to suit your players.

If you take note of player's personalities when your build your squad and build it so all your players have the same mindset it makes it easier as well.  I would never sign a 5* player if he didn't fit in with the squad mindset.

[talhak]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

Sorry you want SI to give you a walk through guide on how to interact with the players???

How to determine - Play the game, make choices, make notes (either mentally or physically), adapt your talks to suit your players.

If you take note of player's personalities when your build your squad and build it so all your players have the same mindset it makes it easier as well.  I would never sign a 5* player if he didn't fit in with the squad mindset.

Did I mention anything related SI?? Here is also a part of SI, that can be also revealed just like other lots of things about the game such as tactics. Please, make a contribution instead of personnel discussion which I am not open. By the way, there are lots of in-game tips provided by SI, that's not strange to see different detailed guides from SI which also they already do for many topics at official manual.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

1 hour ago, talhak said:

So the question is that how to determine the way we should keep while interacting with different players? Which personalities are more open to praise or criticize? How to determine the right frequency of individual player interaction? More things are needed to be revealed.

Yes, the way to reveal that is by trial and error really.

Usually you check personality and media-handling elements, and then go from there. Professional, level headed players seem to accept criticism fine. Ambitious players maybe like to be challenged. But outspoken players can be a pain in the butt to deal with.