FM17 3 Man Defence Turns into a narrow diamond, like really narrow

[cynathor]

Hey so after a bit of tweaking I've gotten the 3-6-1 formation working in FM17 using the template provided on this forum of Cryuff's 3-4-3 diamond. This tactic gave me tremendous success with Man Utd (and Leicester and Villa and several other clubs) in FM16. Starting a beta save I noticed I was conceding a lot of goals with this tactic compared to before, I conceded 4 goals each to Bayern, Spurs, West Ham and Chelsea. 

Formation

Bailly Smalling both have Close Down Less, Jones has close down much less. Pogba being CM-D has close down more by default. The entire team has been asked to close down more, use tighter marking and prevent Gk distribution, higher line 

 

Here you can see my back 3 is retreating after a quick break of play to Hazard. 

Hazard pushes up, cuts the ball back to Mikel as a result the other 3 Pedro Costa and Willian have to retreat back. Chelsea are 1-3 down at the Bridge so they're playing 4-2-4 with Pedro and Costa up top. 

Mikel passes it to Pedro, whos running towards the ball making himself an easy forward pass, this is where the problem starts as Bailly is running with him and obviously outmatched for pace, Ideally it should be Pogba or Schneiderlin (my CM-S on the left) who should go to press him. 

Now Pedro has sucked in both Pogba and Bailly, leaving me a man short at the back against their front 4 if he passes through.

Which he easily does, somehow managing to slip the ball between bailly and pogba both massive players with great ability and anticipation, in a while i feel they pretty much blocked each other, Now all Costa has to do is receive the ball and slip in Willian or Hazard. Ideally you would expect Shaw at ML to cover Willian while Smalling drifts wide to cover Hazard or atleast cut the passing lane. 

 

But instead I get 4 defenders in the space of 1. the death diamond. Jones is stationary and Smalling has pushed into Costa. Over here you should see Pogba facing Costa and making a mad tackle to get the ball but instead hes running back, Bailly should be looking at Willian and cutting that off but hes looking at Hazard. (maybe thats just animation)

 

Sure enough hazard receives the ball and well then its Chelsea to he just hands the ball to Romero. but really guys, how do I solve this problem of players who have total understanding of the tactic and each other doing this. Even against Mainz I had a situation in Europa where my covering CB Fosu Mensah went 15 yards up field to press Muto leaving space to their two wingers to cut in and get goalside . Against West ham this happened with Zaza and Feghouli getting space to cut in. 

What should I do. ?

 

[Maradonna]

Just for the screenshots. ALT+F9 or on Windows the "Snipping Tool" is your friend.

[cynathor]

10 minutes ago, Maradonna said:

Just for the screenshots. ALT+F9 or on Windows the "Snipping Tool" is your friend.

Sorry about that, I used to have a Screengrab tool on my mac for the previous beta but this was a ragepost

[herne79]

You need to include your detailed tactical set up, not just your formation.  Also, that 343 tactic you mention isn't a template to use, it's a tactical discussion thread which demonstrates principles of play.

I have to ask though, why use Pogba as a CM(D)?

[cynathor]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You need to include your detailed tactical set up, not just your formation.  Also, that 343 tactic you mention isn't a template to use, it's a tactical discussion thread which demonstrates principles of play.

I have to ask though, why use Pogba as a CM(D)?

 

Sorry about that, This is the exact details of my Setup, formation and individual player instructions (relevant ones) are in OP. 

Regarding Pogba as CM-D instead of CM-S. Its not my first choice but what tends to happen is once in a while he starts taking shots from way way outside the area and at the same time Schneiderlin prefers left in mid 3 and also isnt able to distribute the ball as effectively. CM-D allows Pogba to focus on dictating the tempo from deep. However, Pogba is an effective defender so I would not expect him to have the sort of poor anticipation, decision making, tackling as demonstrated in the screen shots, especially when we're comfortably winning. 

 

[Fosse]

This does look to be an issue but if you're playing 361 against 424 you will see your defence exposed, they shouldn't be doing that but I'd still expect them to be dangerously overran.

[cynathor]

3 minutes ago, Fosse said:

This does look to be an issue but if you're playing 361 against 424 you will see your defence exposed, they shouldn't be doing that but I'd still expect them to be dangerously overran.

True I was 3-1 up away from home against a top side so they threw the kitchen sink, but the movements of the individual players (smalling, bailly, Pogba) are all wrong wrong wrong

[Anaconda Vice]

The 3-4-3 you are basing this on would have Pogba as a DLP (D) with close down much less. Go read that thread again, there is a reason for that role. Also PPM's are a vital part of the tactic. Pogba has Gets Into Opposition Area whereas you would need him to stay back at all times to help the 3 centerbacks.

[cynathor]

4 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

The 3-4-3 you are basing this on would have Pogba as a DLP (D) with close down much less. Go read that thread again, there is a reason for that role. Also PPM's are a vital part of the tactic. Pogba has Gets Into Opposition Area whereas you would need him to stay back at all times to help the 3 centerbacks.

Correct, I had Pogba as DLP D in FM16 but I noticed it was leading to the game bypassing Mata, that all being said, this is a situation where a person in CM-D not DLP-D is closing down a player, gets blocked by another CD who shouldnt be there. Then when face to face with a player, he runs away from him instead of making a key tackle. The role and choice of my player doesnt explain why my back 3 are all standing within the space that should be occupied by 1 guy and why the screen is running away. 

 

[keithw44]

Does the TI of close down more overide the PI's of close down less?

[cynathor]

17 hours ago, keithw44 said:

Does the TI of close down more overide the PI's of close down less?

I added PI's of close down less and much less about two weeks after start of season, noticed defence was a lot more stable. As per my experience in previous games the PI of close down less for defence paired with TI for close down more for whole team means the defence will close down in a balanced manner unless they have a trait otherwise. This is just my observation might be difference that I've not noticed. 

[enigmatic]

A few thoughts:

I actually probably have more questions about the Smalling and Jones' positioning in the second pitch shot than the "death diamond"  at the end. With all the onrushing players I'd expect Jones to want to move across to his left to cover the middle of the pitch, which means Smalling needs to tuck in a bit more, which also encourages Hazard to run wide and away from where his onrushing support outnumbers the defence.

If Hazard is able to slip a lateral pass to one of two onrushing players or an angled pass behind Bailly at about the time that second shot was taken, Chelsea get at least as clear a scoring chance much earlier in the move with Bailly and Pogba blameless

As for the part you're talking about: of course Bailly closes Pedro down: he's by far the closest player and otherwise it results in a dangerous player with space to turn. Bailly's attributes of aggression, anticipation and work rate all being higher than his positioning, concentration, teamwork and decisions might contribute to him paying more attention to limiting the options of the man on the ball and less on holding his line. Regardless, Bailly's decision to close down is not responsible for the goal.

If you don't want Bailly to close down in that situation even though he's the closest player, isn't that what the "cover" role is for?

Pogba might have got to Pedro quicker - it's hard to tell without video - but appears to basically doing the right thing. I'd expect a midfielder to prioritise closing the man on the ball rather than filling in the gap left by you not selecting any fullbacks. His defensive awareness is OK to good rather than excellent, and he's a central midfielder rather than a half-back.

Pogba and Bailly failing to cut out the pass is unfortunate but perfectly possible. Pedro certainly has enough flair and skill to try to slot it past them, he's got other options (backheel into space on his right wing is a good one too) and they're not goalkeepers. Extra props to the match engine if they credited it as "mistake - missed interception" (though counting these has always been erratic)

It's Smalling's positioning that creates the space that Pedro passes into. But I don't think that's a problem with his decision making either: him coming in as it makes it harder to play a weighted straight through ball for Costa to try to run onto which would otherwise be a very good option for Pedro. If Mkhtariyan continues to track Hazard's run properly, which it appears he is doing when Smalling moves inside then coming inside is clearly the better option.

Mkhtariyan doesn't track the run properly, which I don't think is a massive match engine issue considering he's a winger on attack duty, has no marking ability and average positioning and concentration. A bit disappointing he doesn't seem to move at all, but he's been told defending isn't really his responsibility. It's his lack of tracking back that causes the chance though.

I don't think the defence in aggregate handles it well, but I don't think they handle it unrealistically badly, and there'd be something seriously wrong with the match engine if Chelsea couldn't carve out chances playing a gung-ho 4-2-4 against a side playing about the worst conceivable formation for defending against wing play.

What should you do? Not play 3-6-1 when holding onto a lead away against a very good side, and preferably not play 3-6-1 with attacking wingers at all.

[cynathor]

On 22/10/2016 at 17:28, enigmatic said:

A few thoughts:

I actually probably have more questions about the Smalling and Jones' positioning in the second pitch shot than the "death diamond"  at the end. With all the onrushing players I'd expect Jones to want to move across to his left to cover the middle of the pitch, which means Smalling needs to tuck in a bit more, which also encourages Hazard to run wide and away from where his onrushing support outnumbers the defence.

If Hazard is able to slip a lateral pass to one of two onrushing players or an angled pass behind Bailly at about the time that second shot was taken, Chelsea get at least as clear a scoring chance much earlier in the move with Bailly and Pogba blameless

As for the part you're talking about: of course Bailly closes Pedro down: he's by far the closest player and otherwise it results in a dangerous player with space to turn. Bailly's attributes of aggression, anticipation and work rate all being higher than his positioning, concentration, teamwork and decisions might contribute to him paying more attention to limiting the options of the man on the ball and less on holding his line. Regardless, Bailly's decision to close down is not responsible for the goal.

If you don't want Bailly to close down in that situation even though he's the closest player, isn't that what the "cover" role is for?

Pogba might have got to Pedro quicker - it's hard to tell without video - but appears to basically doing the right thing. I'd expect a midfielder to prioritise closing the man on the ball rather than filling in the gap left by you not selecting any fullbacks. His defensive awareness is OK to good rather than excellent, and he's a central midfielder rather than a half-back.

Pogba and Bailly failing to cut out the pass is unfortunate but perfectly possible. Pedro certainly has enough flair and skill to try to slot it past them, he's got other options (backheel into space on his right wing is a good one too) and they're not goalkeepers. Extra props to the match engine if they credited it as "mistake - missed interception" (though counting these has always been erratic)

It's Smalling's positioning that creates the space that Pedro passes into. But I don't think that's a problem with his decision making either: him coming in as it makes it harder to play a weighted straight through ball for Costa to try to run onto which would otherwise be a very good option for Pedro. If Mkhtariyan continues to track Hazard's run properly, which it appears he is doing when Smalling moves inside then coming inside is clearly the better option.

Mkhtariyan doesn't track the run properly, which I don't think is a massive match engine issue considering he's a winger on attack duty, has no marking ability and average positioning and concentration. A bit disappointing he doesn't seem to move at all, but he's been told defending isn't really his responsibility. It's his lack of tracking back that causes the chance though.

I don't think the defence in aggregate handles it well, but I don't think they handle it unrealistically badly, and there'd be something seriously wrong with the match engine if Chelsea couldn't carve out chances playing a gung-ho 4-2-4 against a side playing about the worst conceivable formation for defending against wing play.

What should you do? Not play 3-6-1 when holding onto a lead away against a very good side, and preferably not play 3-6-1 with attacking wingers at all.

Thats good insight, something I discovered the hard way in my last match of the season. When a team is motivated to attack and end up playing 4 or more players in proper attacking roles, the 3-6-1 can leak goals if even one of the defenders gets dragged out of position. (the DLP-D or the CM-D acts as a 4th defender) 

Was 4-2 up against Arsenal in the FA cup but Giroud/Buitink (they played him first season) dropping deep and turning wreaked havoc, also Smalling with acceleration 12 isnt a right fit for this system. 

As the season went on my team became really fluid at this tactic and in fact my covering defender Bailly ends up becoming the highest rated player based on tremendous interception numbers. The problem is if he misses his interception and the forward gets the ball then it inevitably creates a scoring chance. 

I'm going to experiment with switching to wide mid role or possibly even retrain Mkhi as wingback (AM says its possible) and deploy a 5-3-2 once i'm ahead. But all in all despite being super stubborn in tactics and having tremendous luck in the form of Martial and Shaw having golden patches, I won the league with only 1 loss, lost FA cup on penalties due to an inspired Arsenal, and won the Europa against Southampton. 

PS - Thanks SI for fixing my wide players from shooting from the byline.