[FM 16] 4-1-4-1 Possession Based Football lacking of scoring chances.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

Hi, i'm playing an high possession football with ajax. As said in different threads achieving high stats in term of % of possession is not difficult. Reading the thread made by Cleon on Possession Football https://community.sigames.com/topic/362872-the-art-of-possession-football/?page=1 some idea came to my mind. I decided to use as 4-1-4-1 with one DMC, to CM, two player in the AM strata and a Striker. 

I have no problems in achieving high % of possession and an high number of passages, in fact as can be seen from the picture I have 65-66% of possession with a high number of completed passes. My main problem is creating valid scoring chance and not winning each game 1-0.

https://s22.postimg.org/x0dkxmkgx/20161024225630_1.jpg

My idea is to start the action with the goalkeeper who distribute the ball to the center backs who split in order to make space for the DMC to drop between the two and give the possibility to the two WB/FB to push up a little bit. Once one of the two CBs or the DMC gets the ball, i want one of my player coming deep in order to give them a passing offer.

I also want my ST to come deep  in order to link up with the CMs and do not remain isolated. My AML/AMR will sit narrower in order to make to the WB/Fb to bomb forward and hopefully overload the defence and strech the pitch.

So, let's start with the tactic.

 

Team Istructions

 

Lower Tempo – Look for support, do not to rush with their play and wait until each player regain is position. This will allow players to have more time to look at the game and do not waste the possession. What bother me is if this option will waste possible counter attack or allow the opponent team to regain the shape, obviously a higher tempo (even normal) will lower the % of possession and probably the % of correct pass as player with rush a little bit the play but it can help to find space in a opponent that has not regain his shape.

Roam From Position – Players have to move, they have to pull off from the defender in order to offer a better passing option. It’s probably one (if not) the most important aspect of ball retention.

Dribble Less – I do not want players dribbling when they can pass the ball to a better positioned player. Dribbling can see passing options reduced.

Retain Possession - I want to retain possession as much as possible.

Play Out of Defence – As explained above I want to start the actions from the back.

Mixed passing - Maybe this can be counter-intuitive but I do not want possession only for the sake of it. If one player is free on the opposite flank I want a long pass to him, or if a player his running and he is free I want a through ball to him.

Close down much more - I want my players to press and quickly regain the possession, also this is useful to urge the opposition to play the ball and make more mistakes. 

Prevent short GK distribution - The opposite GK does not have to pass the ball to his center backs, so it is forced to make long shot and increase the probability of losing the ball.

High defense line - I want my opposite to be caught as much as possible in offside, obv this is a draw back with fast opposite players and through ball. So I must pay attention at the game and drop this option if the opposition rape my defence with through balls

 

Team Mentality   

I choose Control but i'm not 100% sure about it. Maybe I have to switch it to Standard as Control is an high mentality setting and it is also very aggressive and use a high defense line, so it can be a problem since I am already using aggressive settings. 

 

Team Shape

A quote from the Cleon thread about possession football perfectly explain why I've chosen High Structure Mentality

 

Quote

More structured team shapes will encourage players to keep it simple and more precise. You would choose this if you want players to stick to the basics and avoid losing the ball with technically difficult passing/dribbling. The downside is that you might restrict some players’ creativity and your team’s style can end up being rather workmanlike/boring.

As can be seen this helps possession as players will avoid to make difficult passing and so they will reduce the possibility to lose the ball. Maybe I will try to play some games with a more fluid setup and see what happens. Probably a more fluid setup helps against though opponents and teams that defend with a deeper defense line as players will tend to try more key passes.

 

The Defence

The two center backs have no instruction, the GK has the PI "Distributes to center back" which I think is perfect with the Play out Defense TI. The two WB/FB have only the PI "stay wider" as I want them to occupy the space left by the two Inside Forward that will stay narrow.

 

The Midfield

In the DMC strata I decided to put a DLP-D (without any PIs) as he will drop between the two center back in the construction phase and also when we are defending deep , forming a five line defense. Also I like the idea way he stays in the middle of the field offering a shorter passing option and a possibility to switch the ball on the other flank as it has a better vision of the final third. What bother me is if he will tend to occupy the same position of the RPM at the beginning of the attack as they will both come deep to get the ball.  

The MC strata is formed by a RPM who is responsible for playing the ball around and roam with the aim of offering a passing option to his teammates. On the other side I have a AP-A which will have quite the same job of the RPM but in an advanced position, as he will try to find the key passes through the defense and also a shot from outside. My main concern is that playing with a AP and a RPM will reduce the passing option or leave some space that can be exploited as maybe they will tend to play in the same positions and sometimes stepping on each others. The other concern is that none of the two is a defending player, so maybe we will leave to much space to the opposite team.

 

The Attack

 

Two IF's with support duties that will play narrower in order to leave space for the FB. In the Stricker position we have a F9. I think he is perfect with a possession based football as he will drop in the AMC strata and leave space that can be exploited by the two IF's, coming deep means he will be a passing option for the two PM and he will not be isolated. 

 

Now it's late, tomorrow I will provide some situations about what works and what do not works. If you're kindly I will really like some initial thoughts about my formations. 

[chrisw]

My initial thoughts from looking at your roles and duties is that you don't really seem to have much of a box presence.

The only player I can see who might conceivably make runs past the F9 and into the box is the AP-A/RPM, but they're definitely more creative roles and are unlikely to be very effective. Your IF-S on either side will cut inside and play narrow, but again won't really move with the aggression of getting past the F9 and into your opponent's penalty area. Say your full-back manages to get into a dangerous position down the flank, who does he aim for with his cross? The F9 who's dropped deep will probably not have much of an aerial presence even if he does manage to be anywhere near a dangerous cross. The IFs probably won't do it and you have 3 playmakers in the centre of midfield who'll prefer to stay outside the box.

My advice off the bat would be to think about getting a couple of players who'll make runs into the box from a couple of angles. I'd go for a CM-A in midfield in place of one of the two playmakers. This will have the added benefit of not congesting the play centrally as much. I'd also change one of your wing-roles to be more attacking, either an IF-A or maybe even a RMD. You'll have more of a box presence this way, with your F9 and remaining two playmakers having running options to get into more dangerous areas for a shot.

I think your Team Instructions are well thought out btw, but i'd be a little concerned about pushing your defensive line higher + using a Control mentality as a Control mentality will push your dline higher by default anyway, and with attacking full-backs you may find yourself countered quite easily, even with the DLP there.

I look forward to seeing the situational analysis that you provide to see if it backs up some of my theories about your weaknesses going forward.

[herne79]

I think you just haven't quite found the right balance yet between possession for the sake of it and useful possession.

At present, you're basically aggressively winning the ball back and then telling your players to pass it around slowly in a risk free manner and hope they eventually get somewhere near the goal.

Taking out one of the midfield playmakers to give you a runner from midfield to help support the attack will be a good start as mentioned above.  See how that works.  If you still feel you are lacking penetration, adjust TIs to reduce some of the slow tippy tappy passing, such as putting the tempo back to normal or taking out Retain Possession.

From the looks of it you don't need any major surgery, just small tweaks.

[yipster1986]

Like the people above me said. You seem to lack the runners from deep.

I would play around a little with the roles in your central midfield area. Keep the DLPd and RP but switch the APa to a B2B midfielder (or CMa) to have a runner from deep. Maybe even switch the IFs on the RP side to a W with an attack duty.

Also the TI's need some work. I feel with those TI's you would have a lot of meaningless possession. I like high possession numbers as well but just passing for the sake of passing . Up the tempo a bit or maybe even lose the Retain Possession TI.

Give it a couple of games, do your analysis and see what works and what doesn't. 

You're playing as Ajax, which is a top side in the Dutch competition. Teams are going to sit very deep. I'm playing as Anderlecht, the top side in the Belgian competition, and I have to draw them out with a slightly deeper line and a lower mentality. Anyway, what I'm saying is: because you're a big club the opposition will most likely drop deeper and you'll have to break down 10 man in the final third. Not easy in FM17

[danfmnoob]

same as most people have said really. Try changing both IF to A and the Lb & RB to WB-S the will offer the width when the IF attack the box. or you could go one side WB-s IF-A WB-A IF-S. I know the flanks look wide open but if you get the middle 3 working as a good screen then it should be fine. a half back will split the 2 cb's better than a dlp too. ( I think )

[A.Pierfrancesco]

Fist of all thanks for the support, I really appreciate your help.

 

Now I will analyze my match against Feyenoord which plays with a 4-2-3-1. I drew this match 2-2 making some changes during the match to adjust some situation that I do not like and that confirmed my doubts

 

First of all let's see how we are disposed without the ball.

 

As you can see we are positioned with a 4-1-4-1. My DPL-D (Cubas) is really close to their AMC, my AP-A (#9 Tielemans) is closing their CB and he is in the middle between the CB and the CM, so he block that passing option. My Wingers are well positioned as they will close down the opposite FB if the CB gives the ball to them. Also my F9 close the passing line between the two CB. 

As result the CB passes the ball to his RB which was closed down by my IF, without any option he tried a long ball to his left wingers but my LB anticipated him and so we gain the ball.

This is exactly what I want in these situation, closing down the opponent and force them to bad choice.

 

This what I do not like, my RPM (#6) and my AP-A are too near. I would have preferred to have one of my two playmakers near the black zone, possibly the my RPM, this is the action where we score our first goal, but anyway I do not like how they are positioned. During the action my LB passed the ball to my RPM which then run with the ball to the middle of the pitch and switch the ball to the other flank to my  RB who waits for my IF to pull off his defender and then he gives the ball to him. 

 

As you can see from the this screen my playmakers are still to near and marked by the opposition AMC, which means that my IF hasn't many option, in fact he waits for the RB to make a run down the flanks and pass the ball to him, who has the opportunity to run and try a cross.

The problem is that as you can see from the image below there aren't players already in the box, so my RB waits some seconds in order to give the opportunity to my F9 and one my CM to get into the opposition box. But in the meantime my RB has been closed down by his defender and so he lose the opportunity.

 

 

He then decided to give the ball to my AP-A (#10) which gave him again the ball in an more advanced position ready to put a cross to my attacking players. The cross has been intercepted and in the next corner we managed to score.

The second goals happened again from a corner caused from a defender put in corner a free kick, so I won't comment it.

 

 

[A.Pierfrancesco]

First conceded goal

 

 

https://s22.postimg.org/7y7z3ule9/20161025145205_1.jpg

No one was marking the opposite AMC which had time to put a through ball to his ST which run to my keeper and score. From what i can see my CBs are to far from each other leaving space for the opposite ST, my DLP-D was "in the middle of nowhere" as in the beginning he was marking the number #18 but then he saw also the AP close down the number #18, which probably thought "Hey, my DLP-D is responsible for that player, let me mark the #27" and so no one marked that player, which is really bad, also my RPM is very far from the AMC, if it was nearer probably the AMC would not attempt the through ball.

 

Second conceded goal     

 

https://s16.postimg.org/rv7i4vmt1/20161025145604_1.jpg

My DPL-D intercepted the ball and passed to my CB, then he decided to try a through ball to my IF at the right which was running to the opposite box. Unfortunately the #18 intercepted the ball, passed it to the #19 and bomb forward to the goal, #19 launched a through ball to him but he didn't stop it well so we managed to regain our shape.

Going forward with the action we had this situation

 

https://s17.postimg.org/t4z7lgawv/20161025150011_1.jpg

#18 is completely free and my CBs are too far from each other, DPL-D which is supposed to stay between them is out of position (#18), again we managed to intercept the cross made by #8.

 

https://s21.postimg.org/gnoqoc79j/20161025154932_1.jpg

Then the ball went to number #27 who pass the ball to #2 and put a cross converted into a goal from #18.

 

These are the stats of my players

https://s13.postimg.org/9ihrbpvdj/20161025151830_1.jpg

 

 

What bother me is the high number of passes of my Keeper, 41(!!), in fact watching the game i saw a lot of time my two CBs, my DPL-D and my DK passing the ball between each other even if there were better option such as my RPM and my FB.

Also I think we are passing to much the ball to my RB, most of the time there are useless passes as my CM will pass him the ball in high position in order to try good crosses but as explained above he waits to much time stopping the action and passing again the ball to my CM as the defender were closing him down and allowing the opposite team to defend really deep and so wasting potentially good chances.

My F9 works well, he come deep offering a good passing option and sometimes switching the position with one of the two IF.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

What I think i will change.

 

I will use the combination IF-A/WB-S IF-S/WB-A in order to have major attacking presence.

I will drop the TI "dibble less" as I think allowing some dribble in key situation is good.

I will change the DPL-D role to a HB or a DM-S. HB give me much defense presence while he will stay in the middle of the field for recycling possession and offer a risk free passing option. DM-S probably will give me more attacking presence than HB but I fear that he will not give me the same presence of the HB in defense.

I will change my AP-A to a BBM with "going further forward" PI as I think he will not only offer a good passing option and do not be in the same position of the RPM, but he will also gives me more presence in the final third.

I also thought about change the RPM role to a more standard DPL-S as he will not roam, in this case i am curios to see how he will behave with a AP-A with "going further forward" PI.

 

And now a question, what do you think it will happens if a switch the team shape to structured or flexible? Will it helps to create more movement and more killer balls?