Not your usual tactical rant

[akash777]

Hi guys, this might be a bit of a long post as I am sort of having a midlife FM crisis and I would really love to know if others face similar problems. So basically, while I have been playing FM since CM4, I don't know how much I have actually learnt about the game. I am sort of confused if I know a bit too much or if I don't know enough. I mean initially with CM4, I was a kid and honestly all I remember is using the "Gung Ho" mentality and signing Mark Viduka and Harry Kewell for Manchester United. I don't know what it was about the game, but I was just 9 then but it took me off playing countless hours of FIFA and basically playing FM with almost every team.I basically learned all my geography from the game (just last night I impressed a girl because I guessed she was from Austria because her university had the word Wein in it). It's sort of a big deal here in Bangladesh where Austria and Australia get used interchangeably. Anyways, back to my problem, which is basically not having any clear idea about what I want from my teams tactically.

When I say I don't know what I want from my team tactically, I do not mean to say I struggle when playing the game. On the contrary, having spent countless hours reading Cleon, Rashidi, Ozil10 and the THOG's posts, I sort of always do well. What I mean is that I can borrow a certain base tactic from one of them and then tweak it game to game. However, my problem is not having any clear idea about how I want to play before starting the match. It's always been either taking someones system and tweaking it or since FM16, using my assistants ideas and then tweaking it. What I really want to create is something of my own, from scratch. But I have never been able to quite put it together. 

So for FM17, I have told myself that I won't play unless I have a clearly developed idea of what I want tactically. Therefore, despite getting the Beta on the day, I'm yet to finish a transfer window or really play more than 3 competitive games. So while I haven't ever started a save with Manchester United since the CM days, I thought they would be ideal as I support them. If you were on my facebook or watch actual games with me, you would think I am Gary Nev with all my punditry. However, everytime I bootup the game, I go lost for a lack of a better word. I mean its not that I don't have an idea, its just that I have too many thoughts and I sort of keep getting distracted and don't get anywhere. So this time, I thought I would try writing about it as I go. I feel as though this will keep a record of my thoughts and ideas and hopefully that could lead to discussion.
 

 

[Prim47]

I like your post @akash777.

I think the first question I would like to start with is, what type of football do you want your team playing (for example, attacking, counter-attacking, possession football, defensive football etc)?

I think we will definitely as the FM community answer your question, as I have been where you are too.

[akash777]

So with that first post out of the way (I started writing it with a completely different purpose), let's take a look at the United team and identify the strengths, weaknesses and PPMS of the players. I want to identify the PPMS because honestly I feel like they have a huge bearing on any tactic you create. I will sort of elaborate on this a little later when I am trying to create the tactic. But for now lets look at the list I compiled on the day I got FM17.

 

I think Valencia, the centre halves and De Gea are missing from this because I had sold Valencia on the first quick start I had created. However, this time I created a new save with no first transfer window budgets to sort of get more into the feel of being Jose and so he is in an option as well. I don't have the game loaded up but off the top of my head I think for Valencia are: 
Pros- Strength, Cons-Crossing, PPMS- Runs with ball down right, knocks ball past opponent.

I didn't list the central defenders because honestly there was not a lot to list. They all have glaring deficiencies in composure and vision. Basically, while they are adept defenders, they aren't going to ever give me the Maldini sort of calm at the back. Before even comparing my team to the teams I am competing against, I think its best to sort of summarise what I learnt about the players (more to revise what I jotted down initially than anything else). Actually I think I will do it in another post so I can have a look at the table, rather than go back and forth among this tab and the excel file.
 

 

 

[ianscousemac]

Cracking post.  Its where I tend to struggle too.  I find unless you have a clear idea of how you want to set your team up, formation, mentality to use you can often spend most games changing between tactics and player roles.  

Now I have started a game on the beta version with Everton with a clear formation and style of play I want to implement. 

[akash777]

1 hour ago, Prim47 said:

I like your post @akash777.

I think the first question I would like to start with is, what type of football do you want your team playing (for example, attacking, counter-attacking, possession football, defensive football etc)?

I think we will definitely as the FM community answer your question, as I have been where you are too.

Hi Prim47, thanks heaps for the super quick reply and the support.
You hit the jackpot with question number one because I sort of have the two answers on my mind right now. I will just give both because I will undoubtedly keep on thinking about the other one if I didn't write both down. (And therein lies my problem)

1)  My ideal playing style would be a hybrid of attacking football while remaining solid defensively. I would honestly not want to prioritise possession over penetration but rather have my team playing football with the aim of creating clear chances while not giving them away. I know this is way too abstract for it to make sense but I'll try to give you an idea of what I mean by using a real life example. From the top of my head, it would be like the United team between 06-09. I have however been really impressed by how Liverpool and Arsenal have been playing but they have both been too leaky for my liking. However, getting this ideal style to work would require the very best of players and would therefore have to be a long term approach. Therefore lets move on to the other answer that came to mind.

2) With the current Manchester United team, I want to play a style of football that gets the best out of the team that I have. What I mean to say is I want to create a style that can utilise the attributes of my players most efficiently. However, I would like to create 3 distinct set ups: 

1) That is set up to create chances and play attacking football

2) A counter-attacking/defensive set up for tough away games or games against the big teams where I try to exploit their weaknesses

3) A system where I can control the game and basically use to take advantage of teams once I am leading without over committing (possibly possession style?)

3) A hybrid system that lets me control and dominate away games. (I have no idea what this set up is)

See what I mean by having too many ideas and getting lost in between them? Started off with 2 ideas that sort of transpired into 5 or 6. Sorry for the really lame reply. I might just have confused you more than clear your query.

[akash777]

39 minutes ago, ianscousemac said:

Cracking post.  Its where I tend to struggle too.  I find unless you have a clear idea of how you want to set your team up, formation, mentality to use you can often spend most games changing between tactics and player roles.  

Now I have started a game on the beta version with Everton with a clear formation and style of play I want to implement. 

Hi Ian, 
Firstly, it's actually really comforting knowing that there are others in the same boat as me. If you don't mind me asking, how did you go about settling on the formation and style of play that you wanted to implement? Did you come to it after analysing your players? Or did you sort of decide on it before that? Or was it something else?

[ianscousemac]

Akash,

What I did was,  think how would I like Everton to play in real life.  I recalled my favourite teams to watch and what it was about them that got me off my seat.  I really like good old fashioned wingers putting balls in the box .  So thats what I'm trying to create.   Not necessarily easy to do as I'm not expert on Fm. I have ready many articles and threads which have helped me.  I think I can analyse football pretty well so I have just started to try and create that way off playing. 

I'm looking to create a 442 that exploits the flanks and gets crosses into the box for Lukaku. I'm using Barkley slightly out of position as a center forward.  I'm training him in that position and see him in the Sheringham role of coming deep to get the ball playing it out wide or for Lukaku to run on too.  I'm actually using an attacking mentality with drop much deeper and close down less shouts to encourage teams to come on to me and once I win the ball back look to get it forward quickly and get early crosses in.

I'm not changing many instructions except to go to overload if losing and clear all shouts and contain if leading in the last 10 mins. 

I also think and this something I have been guilty of that you don't necessarily need to alter your tactics every time you go behind or are under pressure.  I have perviously been guilty of constant altering team mentality, player roles and shouts like many times during a game.  Sometime you can just be unlucky or beaten by the better team.  

[Oenone87]

I have exactly this problem. I might try again with City, who I support (booo united :P) but I started with newcastle here and I look at my team now and I go "oh.. there are... 3 Newcastle players in my first team. I've changed the ENTIRE TEAM in 5 transfer windows haha.

 

Anyway, I have the same issue - start the game, then end up with a blurred idea of what I want to happen. It is infuriating. Plus the team instructions don't exactly do what they say on the tin.

[ianscousemac]

I also like to start with FM touch. It just helps me get through games faster and I can make changes with affecting familiarity. 

[yipster1986]

I'm in the same boat as you guys. I've read multiple guides on here and got stuff working most of the time. Here in FM17 I'm struggling quite a bit for some reason.

I'm managing RSC Anderlecht in Beta, a top Belgian side. I have top creative players in the AML/AMC/AMR slots, 2 strong and tall ST's who are not too good on the ball, Decent holders in midfield and my defensive line isn't too shabby either with the ball at their feet. I disabled the first transfer window to work with what I've got and I give myself time to get to know the players, what positions need strengthening and maybe give some youngsters a couple of minutes in the first team should our schedule be packed.

All in all, the squad just screams an offensive minded 4231 with lots of movement or a 4411 for more defensive stability. The trouble I'm having is that every opponent just camps in their third and I really struggle to break them down. I'm not creating the clear cut chances I want and end up with a ton of long shots and getting countered to death. If this continues for much longer I'm going to create my own topic and ask the guru's here to help me out

[Prim47]

@akash777 - that is no problem at all. 

I think that is good enough for me. I think it might help if I show you my approach when playing FM. Regardless what team I go and manage I normally have 2 ideals in mind of how I want my team to play but I always go for possession football over my 2nd favourite which is defensive football (a bit like Atletico Madrid). Irrespective of what players I have available be it if I am managing a team in league 2 or a team in the championship or even the Premier League, I will always go with my 2 ideals.

So I guess what I am saying is that you have to almost be fixated with the type of play you really like. I am the best by any margin but I can help everyone who struggles with this aspect of the game, because I think it was last year, I had a meltdown. My issue was I loved playing FM but I was absolutely hopeless at it, even when I played friends online I would end somewhere like 6th or 7th with Man Utd. The best managers have an idea of the type of football they want to play and stick with it, the most they ever do is enhance their tactics, so for example a manager who has managed Bayern and was playing possession football like Pep can do the same with Wrexham in Vanarama National League. Of course there will be slight variations but fundamentally the same. 

So the idea on FM is to pick maybe 2 or 3 of your favourite types of play. Could everyone say what type of football they like best? For example you can give examples such as possession play, counter-attacking etc.

 

[akash777]

@Prim47-- Top advice.

So listening to you I have thought about which style of football I like best. I will sort them out by my preference.

Style 1)

Fast, attacking football. Transitional Football as its called. The idea is to win the ball back and hit teams before they are able to go into their defensive shape. I think this is the heavy metal football that Jurgen Klopp likes his team to play. 

Is this sort of  hybrid between counter attacking  and attacking football though?

Style 2)

Traditional Counter Attacking football. Let the opposition come onto us and exploit the spaces they leave when they commit numbers forward. Similar to the way @ianscousemac wants to play with crosses and wingplay.

Style 3)

Possession heavy football. Build up from the back and sort of rip the opposition apart with fast and quick movement and quick passing.

[akash777]

So I was thinking of making a list of questions to answer for someone like me who is stuck at what kind of football they want to play. Maybe that would help with getting an idea working? I'll start of with how I want to defend, then how I want to transition from defence to attack (buildup), how I want to attack and then how I want to transition back from attack to defence. 
Defence

1) Where do I want to win the ball back?

Halfway circle. My attackers aren't the most aggressive or the best tacklers

2) How do I want to win the ball back?

Pressure on the opposition backline, making them play direct and winning the ball back through interceptions by midfield or defence. 

3) What happens if the opposition backline can get the ball to midfield?

Make sure the ball is channeled towards the wings where my hardworking wingers or fullbacks can win back the ball.

4) What weakness do I see to this system?

If the opposition widemen can get the better of my widemen, my defence would probably be high and can be ripped open with a direct ball. Also, if the opposition can get the ball to their striker, my defenders would be left with a 1v1 battle due to the intensity of the pressure up top.

5) How do you want to counteract this flaw?

Playing a sweeper keeper and fast centrebacks to cover. Making sure my defenders are always tight on the strikers. Maybe even man mark the opposition strikers?

6) How do you want to transition from defence to attack?

If the defence win the ball back, I would like them to play it direct into the channels or upto my striker to hold it up. If we win the ball back in midfield, I want the midfielders to run with the ball and supply for the strikers to finish the ball.

I think I see too many flaws with what I am creating and hence should rethink my ideas. But I think if we all pitch in with good questions for the 4 stages of a match, we could actually help people like me who are stuck with getting nowhere with their ideas.

[Prim47]

@akash777 - thank you for your post.

What you have outlined is very good and detailed, and I found a website from my bookmarks which had a extraordinary effect on my FM play. This opened the door for me and I have never looked back. Follow this link for details on attacking football - http://sisportscentre.com/category/the-art-of-attacking-football/.

Once you are on the website scroll right to the bottom and look for the blog called "THE ART OF ATTACKING FOOTBALL – THE INTRO". The web page above is the front page if you like on each stage of attacking football. On the left of the page you will see blogs for all the other type of football you can implement on FM. 

Since you have outlined the type of football you want to play, you should stick to it in order to see the desired effect. Of course, what you then do afterwards is develop the tactics.

[Prim47]

1) In order to pull this off successfully, you will need CB's that are good in positioning, concentration and decisions as well as have relatively good pace and of course be good tacklers. You would need to set your defensive line to fairly high or higher and set to offside trap. Would be good to concentrate on the areas in the below screenshot when purchasing a defender.

2) Quite similar to number 1 but the only addition, is set closing down to much more, bear in mind though you will need players to have good fitness (in player stats this would be natural fitness) and I would suggest doing fitness training often. Also look at the stats of your fitness coach, providing the team I manage is of a good status I would hire a fitness coach with 20 as fitness and no lower.

3) Most often than not teams that you play against will get the ball to midfield, but the above will certainly reduce the amount of time it happens. Something I would like to add here and is very crucial is player roles. I have created a sample with the attached screenshots (had to use FM touch on my tablet as I do not have access to my computer at the moment). 

4) This would hardly happen if you have good players with the above skill set (including those stats in the screenshot). I am currently managing Ebbsfleet in League 2 and it hardly happens to my team. I was actually going to suggest using a sweeper keeper but you have mentioned this in point 5. 

6) I think the screenshots I've uploaded are a few ways you could set-up your formation. I think there are better ways to set-up your formation but wanted to keep it simple.

 

[herne79]

3 hours ago, Prim47 said:

I found a website from my bookmarks which had a extraordinary effect on my FM play. This opened the door for me and I have never looked back. Follow this link for details on attacking football - http://sisportscentre.com/category/the-art-of-attacking-football/.

Once you are on the website scroll right to the bottom and look for the blog called "THE ART OF ATTACKING FOOTBALL – THE INTRO". The web page above is the front page if you like on each stage of attacking football. On the left of the page you will see blogs for all the other type of football you can implement on FM. 

Or you could just look at the stickied Guides thread at the top of this forum and find it (and others) there .