Learning how to play

[looping]

After one year of constant failing with fm16, I got yesterday the beta of fm17. In this thread, I'll try to continue what I started in The art of conceding, but applied now to fm17.

At first, it seems there is not a big difference between fm16 and fm17 and the principles are the same. That's fine.

I will start again with a dummy save in fm17. Note there are slight changes from my previous thread.

First of all, How I want to play?

Use this11.com for drawing your football tactics

Not rocket science.

442 (or its variations) it's not optional. I also want two fast wingers down the flanks, on sitter one creator in midfield, and a big creative-small scorer partnership upfront. Not attacking fb and two cb who defend.

Roles and duties

Goalie - Goalkeeper. Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. No need for sweeper keepers as I don't plan on playing with a particularly high line.

Centre Backs - Central Defender (defend) x 2. Nothing fancy here. They just need to defend and pass the ball to the keeper, fullbacks or midfield. No need for risk taking ball playing defenders or a stopper/cover combination.

Fullbacks - Primarily defensive, they need to get up the left flank to provide support behind the ball. 

Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). The midfield destroyer. The intention here is for someone to actively get in the face of the opposition midfield to break up attacks.

Left Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (support). My runner and creator. I'm not sure about this role. An AP-su won't provide me enough cover, a dlp-su would be too static and a roaming playmaker has the dribble more PI. I'll start with a more neutral role and we'll see.

Right and left wings - Wide midfielder (attack). I want them to run, dribble and cross. You will say, Looping is stupid, why he is not using a winger role? Well, there are 2 reasons: first, because a wm is more defensively responsible than a winger. And second, because my play will be based on crosses so I need bodies inside the box. Winger role has stay wide PI, so will be difficult for them to be inside the box. I will use wm-at and tell them to act as wingers: run wide with the ball, dribble more and cross more often.

Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support). The "striker" that I want to provide a link to midfield. I want him to hold up the ball, play with his back to the goal, try risky passes and be a goal threat finishing crosses. I could use the Tm-su role, but I think this would affect too much my overall system, because my players will look at him too often. As long as I want an hybrid of a dlf-su and a tm-su, I'll tell him to dribble less and hold position.

Left Sided Striker - Advanced Forward. This is the spearhead of the attack, and I want him to be primarily goal focussed. I'm not sure about this role. I could use a p-at, but he is too static. The problem with the AF is that the opposite: he moves too much and could get in the way of my wingers. I'll start with a Poacher with is more a goal threat (stays more inside the box).

Shape and mentality

Shape -  Team Shape is simply about individual player creativity and space. More structured systems have less creativity and more space, more fluid systems the opposite. I will use Structured shape which has low creativity and more space. 442 has already big space between lines so I'll have to think about it later.

Mentality - I don't want to go to an extreme scale, so I discard Contain, defensive, attacking and overload. You know I like low risk tactics, so I'll use counter mentality, but that doesn't mean I want to play counterattacking. I won't complain if counterattacks are triggered but that is not the main plan. I want 2 solid banks of four when defending and a more patient style when attacking. I only use counter because it's the lowest of the normal mentalities.

Team instructions

  I will only use TI if they are needed. From what I have now, I get 2 conclusions: a) Counter mentality has direct passing at back,which conflicts with my patient style and b) 442+Structured creates big spaces and potential gaps between players. For these reasons, I will use 2 TI, Play out the defense and Push higher up, so I will counteract direct passing at back and space between defense and midfield will be reduced.

Player instructions

 Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch. I tell him to:

Distribute to Centre Backs

Roll It Out

Slow Pace Down

- Right and left wings. As I said before:

Run wide with the ball

Dribble more

Cross more often

- Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). I want my central midfielder (support) to be my creator so I'll remove risky passes from his partner in central midfield.

Fewer risky passes

- Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support).  I want an hybrid of a dlf-su and a tm-su, so

Dribble less

Hold position

Players

Goalie - Goalkeeper. Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. Making saves and easy passing is enough. Donarruma.

Centre Backs - Gomez and Romagnoli. Good cb.  Good heading, marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation, jump... I think they are a good couple.

Fullbacks - De Sciglio(right) and Antonelli (left). are complete fullbacks who can both attack and defend but won't get forward causing unbalanced positioning. Concerned about De Sciglio ppm Hugs line because he could end in the same position than my right sided wm-at.

Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). Poli. He is good at tackling, concentration, anticipation, teamwork and work rate. 

Left Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (support).  My runner-creator is Montolivo. He has a key ppm: tries killer balls Good vision, passing, technique and he is quite decent defending with more than decent attributes in anticipation, tackling, teamwork...

Right and left wings - Wide midfielder (attack). I want them to run, dribble and cross. I don't have pure wingers, but Bonaventura (right) and Suso (left) I think can do the job. On the other hand, I have Abate and Vangioni who are attacking fullbacks who may play also as wide midfielders decently. However, this is a concern and I have to think about transfers.

Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support). The "striker" that I want to provide a link to midfield. I want him to hold up the ball, play with his back to the goal, try risky passes and be a goal threat finishing crosses. Luiz Adriano is more a tm than a dlf, he lacks a bit of vision and passing, but plays with back to goal. I think he can do the job..

Left Sided Striker - Poacher. Bacca. Nothing to say here. 

Final tactic

[TheJanitor]

I like how there are more thread like this around recently, really good OP and I like your straightforward approach to picking roles and TIs (you chose the perfect TIs imo).

I think that with the right player, you can make the AP role or the DLP role work like you wish, if you feel like the CM player isn't working like you hope.

Good luck, I will be reading.

[looping]

1 hour ago, TheJanitor said:

I like how there are more thread like this around recently, really good OP and I like your straightforward approach to picking roles and TIs (you chose the perfect TIs imo).

I think that with the right player, you can make the AP role or the DLP role work like you wish, if you feel like the CM player isn't working like you hope.

Good luck, I will be reading.

Thanks.

My intention is that more talented managers help me, because my experience with fm16 was a total failure and I don't want it to happen again with fm17

Updates coming soon.

[looping]

Preview analysis

 

I see them sitting deep, so it's gonna be tough to unlock them. I'm going to focus on the following potential issues. We now already know I will probably have a problem with wingers, but let's test it.

- Not many hoof balls by my gk and defenders (that's the reason of the play out the defense TI)

- Space between defense and midfield (the reason of the push higher up TI)

- Fullbacks supporting behind the wingers

- DLF dropping deep

- Wingers running, dribbling and crossing.

- Unlocking the sitting deep opponent

- Is Montolivo acting as playmaker?

- Team talks

 

Match analysis

- Team talks

I didn't remember to screenshot the half time team talk, but I said something like calmed unlucky, because we had chances but still 0-0.

 

- Not many hoof balls by my gk and defenders (that's the reason of the play out the defense TI)  Didn't notice.

- Space between defense and midfield (the reason of the push higher up TI). I think it is ok.

 

- DLF dropping deep. I'm happy.

- Is Montolivo acting as playmaker? Absolutely.

 

- Fullbacks supporting behind the wingers. - Wingers running, dribbling and crossing.

Both at the same time and I'll explain why. 

I this screenshot we can see a lot of space down the flanks that is no being exploited because a) my fullbacks are not running forward and/or b) my wide midfielders are too narrow. My initial idea was to have two attacking wide players and my fullbacks be more conservative so this space must be exploited by my wide midfielders.

For that reason, I changed the role of my wm-at to w-at, because w-at has stay wide PI.

The result is this:

The initial idea was to pass the ball to them so they dribble run and cross. We have to get the ball to their positions. I'm not sure my players are doing that, so I ticked TI exploit left and right flank.

Now I'm telling exactly to my players what I want them to do. Build patiently (play out the defense), pass the ball to Montolivo (who we agreed is acting as my creator) and pass the ball to one flank so they can run dribble and cross (winger role is exactly that). Is this actually happening?

They are crossing but not dribbling. This may happen because my W-at are too high so they don't have time to dribble and run, they just have space to cross, so I'll give them a support role.

Another important point is if this crosses are completed. Well, we had 3/36 crosses completed which is terrible. I'll try with TI whipped crosses which are good against crowded boxes, and I'll give PI to my w (su) to cross from byline, for 2 reasons: a) I give more time to my other winger, my dlf and my cm (su) to get into opposition area and b) deep crosses are, at some extent, like  through balls which are totally uneffective against a deep defense.

- Unlocking the sitting deep opponent.
We scored 3 goals and have 34 shots, 14 on goal, but most of them long shots or after set pieces.

Montolivo many many shots from distance. It's true he scored a goal from a long shot, but this is too much. He has ppm shoots from distance so I have to do something about it. I know ppm overwrite PI and TI but I'll try telling him to shoot less PI.

- Defense. I allowed too many shots.

Atalanta had 10 shots, 1 on target but 2 ccc and 1 hc. There is something we can do better here. I'm going to focus on the shoots coming inside the box.

Most of the shots came from set pieces, so I'll have to take at look at that. In fact, only the goal was not a set piece. What happened on the goal?

Basically, nº19 was closed down by my 2 cm, who missed the tackles. Nº19 passed the ball between my right cb and right fullback, number 10 crossed and the other finished. The only problem I see here is my fullback defending too wide. Can I tell my fb to defend narrower? Could it be fixed by sit narrower PI? Not sure, specially because this is an in possession shout (despite it can slighlty affect defensive positioning in transition) and De Sciglio (right fullback) hugs touchline ppm.

 

Things to watch out for the next match

-Fullbacks to sit narrower

- Set pieces

- Montolivo shoot less

- TI exploit the flanks

- Ti whipped crosses

- W (s) role and cross from byline PI.

 

PKM

 

A.C. Milan v Atalanta.pkm

[yipster1986]

This kind of thread I come here for. Keep it up mate!

[looping]

6 minutes ago, yipster1986 said:

This kind of thread I come here for. Keep it up mate!

Thanks.

[jukilo]

Amazing thread!

You should be seen as an exemple of never giving up on the game and keep trying stuff until you achieve what you want. I've struggled in the more recent FM because I simple couldn't care or take the time to analyze things. And I eventually got bored and knew "oh, why should I try, it will end in the same manner than before". So yeah, thumbs up for you!

The possible questions that I would have for you, you've already made so I'll continue watching this space and follow your thoughts. Keep it up!

[looping]

2 minutes ago, jukilo said:

Amazing thread!

You should be seen as an exemple of never giving up on the game and keep trying stuff until you achieve what you want. I've struggled in the more recent FM because I simple couldn't care or take the time to analyze things. And I eventually got bored and knew "oh, why should I try, it will end in the same manner than before". So yeah, thumbs up for you!

The possible questions that I would have for you, you've already made so I'll continue watching this space and follow your thoughts. Keep it up!

Thanks. 

 

[yipster1986]

btw, thanks for that this11 website!

Just created my own little tactic and it helps me visually, although a notepad does the same thing 

Here's what my grey matter cooked up

[looping]

Preview analysis

In my previous post I said that were things to watch for the following match:

-Fullbacks to sit narrower

- Set pieces

- Montolivo shoot less

- TI exploit the flanks

- Ti whipped crosses

- W (s) role and cross from byline PI.

According to this, now this is the tactic:

The match is against Roma:

I expect them to be quite attacking, 2 IF with a left side more attacking than the right. I'm outnumbered 3-2 in midfield so I may tell one of my striker to man mark a central midfielder, if needed. I'll have some space to attack, apparently.

Match analysis

- Team talks

 

-Fullbacks to sit narrower.

I didn't see a big difference in defensive positioning so I'll remove it.

- Set pieces.

I didn't remember to set them...

- Montolivo shoot less.

Only 1 shot. This is a dramatic difference, probably caused by the match itself and no by this instruction. Let's see more matches.

- TI exploit the flanks W (s) role.

Are my wingers involved? Are they running, dribbling and crossing?

According to this, Bonaventura (right sided winger) is involved and is doing his job quite well. Suso is uninvolved. In the last match, with an attack duty, Suso was crossing. This is a potential cause, with the cm-su by his side, may appear as a safer option pass the ball to him (we are on counter mentality). I may try giving him an attack duty.

- Ti whipped crosses cross from byline PI.

How effective are our crosses? Are we completing crosses?

This is not a major success, but it's slightly better, so I'll stay with this instructions.

- Outnumbered midfield

Nainggolan is alone.

I didn't follow my own advice of man marking one central midfielder with one of my strikers.

-Defense

This is a real concern. This amount of shoots in front of my box may indicate I needed a dm there. Do you agree? They were outnumbering me in midfield and had 2 IF cutting inside. On top of that, Dzeko was deep lying. Do you really think a dm helps in this situations? Does that mean I can't play 442 in every match?

For the next match

-Fullbacks to sit narrower. I didn't see a big difference in defensive positioning so I'll remove it.

- Montolivo shoot less PI activated.

-Give Suso attack duty

- Try again with whipped crosses

- Set pieces

- Against teams that overload the central zone, the conclusion is that I need a dm? Do I need a striker man marking one midfielder? I can't play 442? Can I drop my cm to dm strata?

 

 

 

Roma v A.C. Milan.pkm

[Sir Alex FM]

4 hours ago, looping said:

 

- Against teams that overload the central zone, the conclusion is that I need a dm? Do I need a striker man marking one midfielder? I can't play 442? Can I drop my cm to dm strata?

 

I've had lots of success with 4-1-4-1 so far on FM17

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

Keep it up. Tremendous topic and analysis. I suppose you could cope with 4-4-2, however, your strikers should be hardworking and a defensive one marks opponent's DM.

[looping]

I played some more matches to have a more general vision of how my team is playing.

Results

Just by looking at the results, you don't need to be a rocket scientist to know what is happening. We are not scoring.

 

Match analysis

Milan-Genoa

Basically, Genoa was sitting deep. They didn't create a single chance (only long rage shoots and a couple of headers from set pieces, so the real problem was unlocking them.

I didn't create a lot of chances, but I think we deserved to win. We can see how my wingers were crossing, specially right sided Bonaventura. This is a note I have to use to implement tactical changes.

Another thing I believe is important is that my strikers didn't have ccc or hc. It seems my main goal threats are my wingers which is not my initial plan. Another important note. 

Sassuolo - Milan

They were more attacking than expected. Outnumbering me in midfield, created one ccc, and I, immediately, man marked one of their central midfielders.

After that, they weren't able to unlock my defense, despite they had 2 chances but not a real concern. If these are the kind of chances opponents are going to create, I'm happy (imposible headers and shots with 2 players tight marking).

Finally, they scored from a stupid penalty.

Attacking, things were awful. As usually, my strikers were uninvolved (especially my p-at) and crossing was uneffective.

Juventus - Milan

I expected them to be attacking, and they were. My main concern were central areas, where I was crazily outnumbered and overlapping wingbacks. Surprisingly, my defense was quite good, and they only scored from a fast break and a set piece.

On the other hand, they offered me more space to attack. This is, probably, the cause of the number of crosses I sent and the fact that I scored 4 goals.

Important to say, Khedira received a red card in the second half, so it was even easier.

 

Milan - Napoli

I've been trying with both wingers on support and changing my P-at to Af-at to provide more movement. Later I'll go in depth.

We created many chances and I think we deserved to win. We even missed a penalty.

Napoli only produced shots from outside the box and Gabbiadini scored a wonderful goal. The only shoot from inside the box was before I told one of my strikers to man mark Hamsik.

I'm quite happy, despite the result

 

Palermo - Milan

They were more attacking than expected. I told one of my striker to man mark Hiljemark.

They had a lot of shoots but from long rage. Not a relevant concern.

I clearly deserved to score. Luiz Adriano missed many chances.

I've been trying with other players on the wings (Abate and Vangioni), which is something I already expected and wrote down in my first post.

Not getting good results but I think progressing.

 

Tactical changes to implement

- Whipped crosses out, because they are not effective, so back to mixed

- Exploit flanks TI out, because is not producing a significant result and maybe causes some uninvolvement in my strikers

-  Wingers will be given a support duty, so they start deeper and have more space to run, dribble and cross

- Poacher is now an Advanced Forward, which is less static

- Abate and Vangioni are now my wingers. They are less talented but have ppm that suit better with what I expect from them.

- My defense is ok. Even when the opponent outnumbers my in midfield (the main weak of a 442) I can manage it telling one of my strikers to man mark a central midfielder.

- When the opponent offers space, we can score/create chances. Otherwise, we struggle. I'll have a read to this

So now we have (Montolivo and Bacca injured)

 

 

PKM

 

 

 

 

 

A.C. Milan v Genoa.pkm

A.C. Milan v Napoli.pkm

Juventus v A.C. Milan.pkm

Palermo v A.C. Milan.pkm

Sassuolo v A.C. Milan.pkm

[looping]

17 hours ago, yipster1986 said:

btw, thanks for that this11 website!

Just created my own little tactic and it helps me visually, although a notepad does the same thing 

Here's what my grey matter cooked up

 

1 hour ago, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

Keep it up. Tremendous topic and analysis. I suppose you could cope with 4-4-2, however, your strikers should be hardworking and a defensive one marks opponent's DM.

Thanks for your answers. I hope this thread can help me and/or others.

Sadly, I'm not receiving the feedback expected...

[looping]

9 hours ago, Sir Alex FM said:

I've had lots of success with 4-1-4-1 so far on FM17

Yes, I'm sure. But I want to stick to my initial plan which is a 442, not optional, so I have to find solutions within this formation.

[HUNT3R]

13 minutes ago, looping said:

Sadly, I'm not receiving the feedback expected...

Might be worth saying what feedback you're after? Being clear will help focus replies you get.

[looping]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

Might be worth saying what feedback you're after? Being clear will help focus replies you get.

Is my overall system balanced?

Are my conclusions and tactical changes correct?

For instance, I have problem creating chances. I think this is a problem with my wingers. I'm trying many many things to fix it. Are my ideas right or wrong? Do you have any additional idea?

I think my defense is ok. Am I right? 

I'm struggling to score, but I scored 4 against Juventus. Is this caused by luck or because they offered me space (my opinion)?

This kind of things. I post a lot of issue->solution patterns. I'd like to know if I spot issues correctly and if the solutions make sense.

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

1 hour ago, looping said:

Is my overall system balanced?

Are my conclusions and tactical changes correct?

For instance, I have problem creating chances. I think this is a problem with my wingers. I'm trying many many things to fix it. Are my ideas right or wrong? Do you have any additional idea?

I think my defense is ok. Am I right? 

I'm struggling to score, but I scored 4 against Juventus. Is this caused by luck or because they offered me space (my opinion)?

This kind of things. I post a lot of issue->solution patterns. I'd like to know if I spot issues correctly and if the solutions make sense.

I'm not even near professional understanding of the game, but I'm going to try to help.

Your system is well balanced, but it seems to me your Poacher/AF is placed far from other team and barely involves himself into a game. I would prefer DFs/DFd combination.

You've scored easily against Juventus because they played openly and left pockets of space behind, that was used by your offensive players. Other teams are sitting deep and don't allow you to trigger counterattacks often. So your team is stronger than nearly every opposite side. In terms of this you should work out plan B how to unlock rival's defense: maybe playing in higher tempo and taking greater risk, maybe implicate fullbacks into attacking phase by giving suitable instructions out to them.

[looping]

This is starting to be ridiculous

 

Unbelievable

 

You will say that my problem is that I'm not scoring and I will agree, but the fact that I'm conceding in every game, despite they hardly ever shoot on goal is infuriating. I'm starting to have the feeling whatever I do I will lose.

On 28/10/2016 at 17:37, jukilo said:

I eventually got bored and knew "oh, why should I try, it will end in the same manner than before"

 

I've read (again) this now:

Despite this thread is about attacking football, and I know this is not my style, I need to attack better because I'm not scoring. This thread may give some ideas, I hope.

The same Cleon says: Regardless of you set up to play or what type of opposition you play against, you need to be able to break them down.

And I'm not able, especially defensive sides.

Basic principles

- Penetration.  

I can penetrate the opposition in different ways. I have my two wide men that should run, dribble and cross. I also have my dlf-su, coming deep and dragging defenders. My cm-su making forward runs and my AF moving upfront. I think these are enough ways to unlock the opposition.

- Support This requires good dispersal when in possession to spread the field. Angles, distance and timing of passes becomes important.

Passing options, as far as I can understand.

As far as my brain can go, I see my players with passing options. Two examples given.

- Mobility. Interchange positions and provide good movement to support the play.

Probably I'm a bit static, especially down the flanks where my wingers are hardly mobile. That's why I will change their roles to wm-at, and I will give them PI run wide with the ball, dribble more, cross more often. Their starting positions will be as deep as a w-su, and will act like wingers, but they won't stay wide. They will come narrow, without possession, and then:

a) they will be able to finish crosses.

b) They will open space for my fullbacks

In possession they will act like wingers to provide width.

What happens? My fullbacks are too conservative and aren't making enough forward runs. My initial plan was not having attacking fullbacks (afraid of leaving space behind), so it's difficult to do both things at once. I'll try with wb-su. I expect the movement to be: my right sided wm-at gets the ball runs wide and wb-su stays back. On the other side, the wm-at left sided comes narrow and wb-su runs forward to provide width,

I don't know if it's going to work and I'm afraid of leaving too much space behind.

- Creativity. With Structured shape, I'm probably killing creativity so I'll change to flexible.

- Width. Already covered.

Common issues

- Shooting accuracy suffers. This is actually happening, so I'll use TI work ball into box. I know this reduces crosses, but I have no other idea.

- Play feels rushed. No, In fact, not a bad idea to play with higher tempo.

4 hours ago, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

I'm not even near professional understanding of the game, but I'm going to try to help.

Your system is well balanced, but it seems to me your Poacher/AF is placed far from other team and barely involves himself into a game. I would prefer DFs/DFd combination.

You've scored easily against Juventus because they played openly and left pockets of space behind, that was used by your offensive players. Other teams are sitting deep and don't allow you to trigger counterattacks often. So your team is stronger than nearly every opposite side. In terms of this you should work out plan B how to unlock rival's defense: maybe playing in higher tempo and taking greater risk, maybe implicate fullbacks into attacking phase by giving suitable instructions out to them.

I agree.

- Waste good chances. Yes, if you want to miss chances, Luiz Adriano is your man.

- You get hit on the counter attack. Already covered.

- Passing suffers. it can be linked to a lack of movement, lack of support or the play being too rushed.

I hope it doesn't happen anymore.

- Struggle to break defensive sides down. This is the exact problem.

 

Tweaked tactic

(Poli, De Sciglio and Bacca out)

Things to watch out

- wb and wm movement.

- tempo

- Shooting accuracy

- Flexible shape. Creativity.

- Hit on the counter?

 

[NoTekkersRB]

So teams are sitting back against you? Have you thought about losing the push higher up instruction as this may already compress the play a bit? Also, slowing the tempo down so that you can draw the opposition out? As has been stated, maybe changing the role of the advanced forward so that he becomes more involved? Or even keeping him the same as he can stretch the defence while your team doesn't push up too high so that there is more space in midfield to get the opposition to come out more? You'll have to see

[looping]

18 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

So teams are sitting back against you? Have you thought about losing the push higher up instruction as this may already compress the play a bit? Also, slowing the tempo down so that you can draw the opposition out? As has been stated, maybe changing the role of the advanced forward so that he becomes more involved? Or even keeping him the same as he can stretch the defence while your team doesn't push up too high so that there is more space in midfield to get the opposition to come out more? You'll have to see

In fact, I'm losing almost every game so teams are not sitting back against me any more.

All I wrote up, all I payed attention to: is this micromanaging necessary to play the game? I'm not saying to be the best manager in the world. I just want not to be sacked. I'm close to be sacked now. I had a meeting with the board and I don't know how I convinced them not to sack me because this is a complete disaster.

[looping]

I know what happened.  I came back to my initial tactic (tweaks were a disaster)

Inter didn't sit back so I destroyed them on the counter. This is a clear pattern. Next game against Torino is a different subject. I'll try to unlock them, I will fail (whatever I do) and again losing.

[looping]

AS it was expected, I've been sacked.

I posted here all my thoughts, my ideas, issues spotted, possible solutions... Everything. Some of you (thank you very much) attempted to help. I tried what you said and I still can't get decent, DECENT, results. 

Simply, I don't know what else to do. Totally. I've tried everything. I can't do it better.

I would be very thankful if anybody can read what I posted and see if I'm saying absurdities at some point. My results are terrible so, at some point, I'm doing something completely absurd and nonsense.

[Letissier1980]

Hi Looping, 

I am by no way an expert but looking at your pictures here are my thoughts:

No thrust from defence - both full back roles are support, if that is definitely the roles you want to keep do you need a defend duty in midfield to cover your full backs?

Flexible team shape - I know this may not make much difference but with the roles you have chosen would this give your players a little more creative freedom and keep the players closer together? In some of the pictures, it looks as if your DLF & AF are quite far away from each other. (There seems to be two opposition players between them - how do you supply the AF to score if you have to pass through two players?)

Changing roles & duties of forwards - Could you change the DLF to attack duty to get him closer to the AF?, do you change the AF to a DLF to get him closer to the DLF (S)?

Lastly team shouts - If you are playing counter do you want to play out of defence?  I am hoping you will answer because you were unhappy with the centreback hoofing it long , but isn't that what triggers a counter attack, players finding attackers in space from the oppositions attack? If that was the case could you remove this along with the higher tempo TI and have a playmaker role in midfield for the defenders to pass to someone who maybe more appropriate to start the counter attacking moves?  It could be any of your midfield four.

Lastly may I be so bold to suggest that maybe counter is not the mentality you are trying to achieve?

Anyway that is about as much as I think could be helpful, as I am not a master at this game either, but your later posts were suggesting you were feeling quite frustrated.

I hope this can be of some help, do not make all changes at once. Make small changes and see how it affects your team.

Regards

Darren

[ianscousemac]

Another excellent read on these forums.  So many to keep track and play my game of FM. 

[Hunter T]

Great thread

Just a few suggestions to overcome your attacking problem

I would switch FBs to Automatic. I found this to be very useful and effective in FM16 and i trust it completely. They give enough support offensively

and they keep their positions quite well defensively.

Try and use wingers at the flanks both on an attacking role. They will give you enough width (hopefully) to open up denfences and relieve the pressure

from your 2 mids (especially when you play against a mid of three)

Make at least one of your central mids to move vertically (try a BBM role, with moving into channels Pi and/or going forward) He could give your team

a suprise elemenet in offence coming from deep and stepping into the box, give support to the winger and put extra pressure to the opposition defence.

Or you could try a BWM role with going forward Pi, in order to have some more defensive coverage

Last but not least, i would try with two CFs up front, one with support, one with attack duty. Milan, i think, are a good enough team to play with a fluid mentality

so you could try that approach.

 

[looping]

3 hours ago, Letissier1980 said:

Hi Looping, 

I am by no way an expert but looking at your pictures here are my thoughts:

No thrust from defence - both full back roles are support, if that is definitely the roles you want to keep do you need a defend duty in midfield to cover your full backs?

Flexible team shape - I know this may not make much difference but with the roles you have chosen would this give your players a little more creative freedom and keep the players closer together? In some of the pictures, it looks as if your DLF & AF are quite far away from each other. (There seems to be two opposition players between them - how do you supply the AF to score if you have to pass through two players?)

Changing roles & duties of forwards - Could you change the DLF to attack duty to get him closer to the AF?, do you change the AF to a DLF to get him closer to the DLF (S)?

Lastly team shouts - If you are playing counter do you want to play out of defence?  I am hoping you will answer because you were unhappy with the centreback hoofing it long , but isn't that what triggers a counter attack, players finding attackers in space from the oppositions attack? If that was the case could you remove this along with the higher tempo TI and have a playmaker role in midfield for the defenders to pass to someone who maybe more appropriate to start the counter attacking moves?  It could be any of your midfield four.

Lastly may I be so bold to suggest that maybe counter is not the mentality you are trying to achieve?

Anyway that is about as much as I think could be helpful, as I am not a master at this game either, but your later posts were suggesting you were feeling quite frustrated.

I hope this can be of some help, do not make all changes at once. Make small changes and see how it affects your team.

Regards

Darren

 

32 minutes ago, Hunter T said:

Great thread

Just a few suggestions to overcome your attacking problem

I would switch FBs to Automatic. I found this to be very useful and effective in FM16 and i trust it completely. They give enough support offensively

and they keep their positions quite well defensively.

Try and use wingers at the flanks both on an attacking role. They will give you enough width (hopefully) to open up denfences and relieve the pressure

from your 2 mids (especially when you play against a mid of three)

Make at least one of your central mids to move vertically (try a BBM role, with moving into channels Pi and/or going forward) He could give your team

a suprise elemenet in offence coming from deep and stepping into the box, give support to the winger and put extra pressure to the opposition defence.

Or you could try a BWM role with going forward Pi, in order to have some more defensive coverage

Last but not least, i would try with two CFs up front, one with support, one with attack duty. Milan, i think, are a good enough team to play with a fluid mentality

so you could try that approach.

 

THanks for your answers. I'll try again and let you know.

[looping]

2 hours ago, ianscousemac said:

Another excellent read on these forums.  So many to keep track and play my game of FM. 

Thanks. Pleased to know it's a good read but be aware that I'm constantly failing...

[looping]

After another fail, I've read again what I wrote and suggestions given. This is the result.

I will start again with a dummy save in fm17. I'll create my own team based on Celta de Vigo, just because he has many players that suit my style, despite I have to make some changes.

First of all, How I want to play?

 

Not rocket science.

442 (or its variations). I also want two fast wingers down the flanks, on sitter one creator in midfield, and a big creative-small scorer partnership upfront. Not attacking fb and two cb who defend.

This principles are not optional.

 

Roles and duties

Goalie - Goalkeeper. Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. No need for sweeper keepers as I don't plan on playing with a particularly high line.

Centre Backs - Central Defender (defend) x 2. Nothing fancy here. They just need to defend and pass the ball to the keeper, fullbacks or midfield. No need for risk taking ball playing defenders or a stopper/cover combination.

Fullbacks - Primarily defensive, they need to get up the left flank to provide support behind the ball.  Automatic duty follows team mentality (counter), so they would be on support anyway.

Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). The midfield destroyer. The intention here is for someone to actively get in the face of the opposition midfield to break up attacks.

Left Sided Midfielder - Box to box midfielder. My runner and creator. I'm not sure about this role. 

Right and left wings - Winger (attack). I want them to run, dribble and cross. 

Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support). The "striker" that I want to provide a link to midfield. I want him to hold up the ball, play with his back to the goal, try risky passes and be a goal threat finishing crosses. I could use the Tm-su role, but I think this would affect too much my overall system, because my players will look at him too often. As long as I want an hybrid of a dlf-su and a tm-su, I'll tell him to dribble less and hold position.

Left Sided Striker - Poacher. This is the spearhead of the attack, and I want him to be primarily goal focussed. I'm not sure about this role. I could use a p-at, but he is too static. The problem with the AF is that the opposite: he moves too much and could get in the way of my wingers. I'll start with a Poacher with is more a goal threat (stays more inside the box). Complete forward is a forbidden role because there are a few players at my level who can play this role decently and what he does doesn't suit my style exactly.

Shape and mentality

Shape -  Team Shape is simply about individual player creativity and space. More structured systems have less creativity and more space, more fluid systems the opposite. I'll leave it on Flexible.

Mentality - I don't want to go to an extreme scale, so I discard Contain, defensive, attacking and overload. You know I like low risk tactics, so I'll use counter mentality, but that doesn't mean I want to play counterattacking. I won't complain if counterattacks are triggered but that is not the main plan. I want 2 solid banks of four when defending and a more patient style when attacking. I only use counter because it's the lowest of the normal mentalities.

Team instructions

  I will only use TI if they are needed. From what I have now, I get 2 conclusions: a) Counter mentality has direct passing at back,which conflicts with my patient style and b) 442creates big spaces and potential gaps between players. For these reasons, I will use 2 TI, Play out the defense and Push higher up, so I will counteract direct passing at back and space between defense and midfield will be reduced.

Player instructions

 Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch. I tell him to:

Distribute to Centre Backs

Roll It Out

Slow Pace Down

- Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). I want my box to box to be my creator so I'll remove risky passes from his partner in central midfield.

Fewer risky passes

- Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support).  I want an hybrid of a dlf-su and a tm-su, so

Dribble less

Hold position

Players

Celta Vigo needs a left winger and a creative hardworking central midfielder. I added to my squad Cheryshev and Mosquera.

Goalie - Goalkeeper. Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. Making saves and easy passing is enough. Sergio Alvarez.

Centre Backs - Sergi Gomez and Cabral. Good cb.  Good heading, marking, tackling, positioning, anticipation, jump... I think they are a good couple.

Fullbacks - Hugo Mallo and Jonny are complete fullbacks who can both attack and defend but won't get forward causing unbalanced positioning. 

Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). Radoja. He is good at tackling, concentration, anticipation, teamwork and work rate. 

Left Sided Midfielder - Box to box midfielder.  My runner-creator is Mosquera. He has a key ppm: tries killer balls, likes to switch balls to other flank. Good vision, passing, technique and he is quite decent defending with more than decent attributes in anticipation, tackling, teamwork...

Right and left wings - Winger (attack). I want them to run, dribble and cross. I have pure wingers with Orellana and Cheryshev. Even good replacements (Sisto and Bongonda)

Right Sided Striker - Deep Lying Forward (support). The "striker" that I want to provide a link to midfield. I want him to hold up the ball, play with his back to the goal, try risky passes and be a goal threat finishing crosses. Guidetti can do the job, despite he lacks a bit of vision.

Left Sided Striker - Poacher. Aspas. He has perfect attributes. Even his replacement Rossi is excellent. 

Final tactic

[NoTekkersRB]

One thing I've never actually see you mention in past posts is width settings, especially when you come up against smaller teams?

[HUNT3R]

This has been pointed out quite a few times before, but I'm wondering how well your central midfield links up with the DLF because of the balance you chose. Won't it be better with the BBM on the right so they can link up easier?

[looping]

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

This has been pointed out quite a few times before, but I'm wondering how well your central midfield links up with the DLF because of the balance you chose. Won't it be better with the BBM on the right so they can link up easier?

So we have two options:

a) Dlf in the same side than bbm

b) Dlf and bbm different side

 

I think the b) solution is better. The dlf drops deep and we almost have a 433. Guidetti (dlf) can pass the ball to Mosquera(bbm) or the left winger.

In option a), Guidetti can only pass the ball to Mosquera, because they are on the same side and the right winger is too far. We are overloading left side and leaving nobody in the right. If Guidetti was on the right side, we would have a better positioning, more passing options...

I'm open to change my opinion, but I'd like to understand why. In terms of linking, I think is better having them on different sides, but if anybody has a better idea, I'd like to know it.

I'm constantly failing so I'm doing something wrong for sure.

[looping]

One concrete match. I won but it's not important.

It seems I'm outnumbered in midfield. 4-2-3-1 against my 442, it means 2 central midfielders against:

- Iturraspe. The most conservative central midfielder. Probably will stay back to recycle possession when attacking.

- Mikel Rico. Quite aggressive central midfielder. I expect him to make forward runs.

- Raul Garcia. A SS-at role. I expect him to make forward runs inside the box.

On top of that we have a lone striker Aduriz who is a beast inside the box (finishing, heading, off the ball).

In addition, my weakest defending area is the central space between defense and midfield (basically, in front of my box).

What happened during the match?

It seems my expectations were right. A lot of shots in front of my box.

 First goal conceded

We have 2 solid banks of four. Nobody alone. Iturraspe has the ball.

My central midfielder Diaz decides to close down Iturraspe, leaving Raul Garcia alone.

Iturraspe passes the ball to Raul Garcia.

My central defender Gomez closes down Raul Garcia, despite Diaz, my central midfielder tracked back. Gomez, as a consequence, is dragged out of position.

Good off the ball by Susaeta (right winger) exploiting the space left by my central defender Gomez. Good pass by Raul Garcia.

Susaeta crosses and Aduriz finishes. Goal. Minute 1 we are 1-0 down already.

Questions

- Would this be a serious concern for you?

- How would you try to stop it?

- Would you man mark Iturraspe using one of your strikers?

- Is this a tactical problem or my players fault (Gomez leaving position without any reason)?

- Was this only caused by a brilliant play of the opponent?

 

What would you do? What do you think?

[waldywaldy]

First off: excellent thread.

Looking at that last match: Your analysis seems spot on.

There's a number of things i would consider doing.

Changing to fluid or very fluid is an option. It would decrease space between the lines and in a perfect world that would lead to your cb's marking their ST and AM while your CM's would mark Rico and Iturraspe. Alternatively you could push up further to achieve the same thing, a viable option since Aduriz doesn't have the speed to profit from space left behind your back line. Then again, personally I don't like fiddling with the team shape setting and playing one-on-one at the back or pushing up higher does come with added risk, especially in an away game.

I think I would probably choose to drop one of my strikers to the AM slot to even up numbers in midfield. Disrupting Iturraspe in the holding midfield role seems the key to victory imo, if you don't deal with him he will keep recycling possession until they finally create a 2 against one situation or one of your players fails to mark his man correctly.

My two cents anyway

[looping]

Thank you very much for your answer.

15 minutes ago, waldywaldy said:

hanging to fluid or very fluid is an option. It would decrease space between the lines and in a perfect world that would lead to your cb's marking their ST and AM while your CM's would mark Rico and Iturraspe. Alternatively you could push up further to achieve the same thing, a viable option since Aduriz doesn't have the speed to profit from space left behind your back line. Then again, personally I don't like fiddling with the team space setting and playing one-on-one at the back or pushing up higher does come with added risk, especially in an away game.

I'm already on flexible+push higher up. I agree with you changing to fluid or pushing even higher would be too much risk.

15 minutes ago, waldywaldy said:

I think I would probably choose to drop one of my strikers to the AM slot to even up numbers in midfield. Disrupting Iturraspe in the holding midfield role seems the key to victory imo, if you don't deal with him he will keep recycling possession until they finally create a 2 against one situation or one of your players fails to mark his man correctly

If I tell one of my strikers to man mark Iturraspe, would produce the same effect? I don't want to change my formation because my attacking style would be modified.

16 minutes ago, waldywaldy said:

First off: excellent thread.

Thanks again. Everybody saying excellent thread, great stuff is good, but I've been sacked again...

[waldywaldy]

1 minute ago, looping said:

If I tell one of my strikers to man mark Iturraspe, would produce the same effect? I don't want to change my formation because my attacking style would be modified.

 

Hard to tell from here as FM is a game of trial and error, at least to me. You could try it and see if it works, personally I am not a big fan of man marking players out of position though. The striker marking Iturraspe might very well have trouble getting back in position on time. My guess is playing a SS in the AM option will solve the Iturraspe problem and going forward it would look more like a actual 442 while a 442 on paper with a Striker dropping deep to mark a holding midfielder will look more like a 4411 going forward, if that makes sense.

[looping]

47 minutes ago, waldywaldy said:

Hard to tell from here as FM is a game of trial and error, at least to me. You could try it and see if it works, personally I am not a big fan of man marking players out of position though. The striker marking Iturraspe might very well have trouble getting back in position on time. My guess is playing a SS in the AM option will solve the Iturraspe problem and going forward it would look more like a actual 442 while a 442 on paper with a Striker dropping deep to mark a holding midfielder will look more like a 4411 going forward, if that makes sense.

As a consequence, when I play against a team with 3 central midfielders, most of the times,  I can't use my initial tactic (442)? Is that right? 

[herne79]

Have you read Jambo's current thread?  He's been going through almost identical issues, has provided great analysis and come up with possible solutions.  If you haven't, it's well worth a read.

From what you are trying to achieve and how you are trying to play, honestly I think you should explore using the DM line more - I know you've tried players there previously, but I'd have another think about it.

[waldywaldy]

7 minutes ago, looping said:

As a consequence, when I play against a team with 3 central midfielders, most of the times,  I can't use my initial tactic (442)? Is that right? 

I  am by know means an FM expert, so please don't take my advice at face value. That being said, my experience is that superior numbers in midfield go a long way.

As all things FM, it is mostly contextual. It depends on the opponent and the way they play. Against weaker teams or teams that don't favor possession a 442 might very well work. Better teams that like to play attacking/possession football will have a field day with an extra man in midfield, especially if you close down more.

 

 

[looping]

28 minutes ago, waldywaldy said:

I  am by know means an FM expert, so please don't take my advice at face value. That being said, my experience is that superior numbers in midfield go a long way.

As all things FM, it is mostly contextual. It depends on the opponent and the way they play. Against weaker teams or teams that don't favor possession a 442 might very well work. Better teams that like to play attacking/possession football will have a field day with an extra man in midfield, especially if you close down more.

 

 

Of course, nothing is written on stone, but it's good the read other opinions. I hope I can use your ideas.

Thanks for your time.

[looping]

32 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Have you read Jambo's current thread?  He's been going through almost identical issues, has provided great analysis and come up with possible solutions.  If you haven't, it's well worth a read.

From what you are trying to achieve and how you are trying to play, honestly I think you should explore using the DM line more - I know you've tried players there previously, but I'd have another think about it.

Yes I have.

The problem is that Jambo's current thread is far beyond my understanding of the game.

To be honest herne79, I've read again some of my previous threads and your answers and now I understand more what you used to say but that is because my understanding of the game was not leveled with what you and others were saying. The same happens now with Jambo's thread.

Call me slow, but this is what I'm facing.

[looping]

12 hours ago, NoTekkersRB said:

One thing I've never actually see you mention in past posts is width settings, especially when you come up against smaller teams?

I'm experimenting changing width. It seems my players find more and better space to create chances.

I'll keep working and I'll let you know how it ends.

Thanks for your contribution.

[NoTekkersRB]

10 minutes ago, looping said:

I'm experimenting changing width. It seems my players find more and better space to create chances.

I'll keep working and I'll let you know how it ends.

Thanks for your contribution.

Have you started to go wider against teams that are sitting back against you?  I assumed that with the counter setting you were probably playing narrowish

[looping]

2 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

Have you started to go wider against teams that are sitting back against you?  I assumed that with the counter setting you were probably playing narrowish

Exactly. Not major improvements, but, at least, it looks better. 

 I will start a new save (I was sacked) and I'll keep trying.

 

[looping]

I got the beta version two days ago and I already can say I'm the same awful and terrible manager in fm17.

I have already been sacked twice and the game is not released yet. GREAT.

I'll stick to my initial plan, which was unanimously praised, but with a different team. Which team I'm going to sink into misery? Mmm.. What about the Gunners? In fact, my job is only to end what Wenger started.

I'm not going to post the full explanation of my tactic because everybody can read above. So this is what we have to start:

I'm concerned about Bellerin and Monreal who have ppm get further forward whenever possible. This can leave gaps behind and conflicts with my idea of 2 conservative fullbacks. On the other hand, they getting forward may help my attacking. One thing to pay attention to.

More updates tomorrow.

 

[HUNT3R]

4 hours ago, looping said:

I'm not going to post the full explanation of my tactic because everybody can read above. So this is what we have to start:

 

What'll be different this time? What will you be doing different?

Looking at the formation, you're certainly starting the exact same way.

[Feddo]

"Call me slow, but this is what I'm facing."

I started again with 13, and only in the second year of 15 I started to get a real understanding of what I was doing. So I was a bit slow aswell ;-)

One suggestion I'd like to give is give your right wm instructions to cut inside and your right fullback an attacking role or duty. This will give you an extra weapon, walcott/bellerin combo is perfect for this. The cm-d and other fullback give good cover.

You might also want to get a playmaker in your side maybe change the cm-d to dlp-d.

I had a lot of succes with a similair set up (with an am-striker combo though). You'll have variations going forward and enough penetriation to unluck a defence

[Toffle]

I feel like you're using too many attacking duties for a counter mentality (you should use 0-1). You're also 'pushing higher up' when counter-attacking is, by definition: "Sitting deep in your own half and staying sturdy in defence. Then when winning the ball back and the opposition has over commit men forward, launching explosive counter attacks to take advantage of the space they’ve left behind." see https://community.sigames.com/topic/362162-the-art-of-counter-attacking/

I also think that counter-attacking is not the best mentality for Arsenal. Because of the quality of your players, other team will probably be defending or counter-attacking against you. Instead, you should try to retain the ball possession, make your opponents run, find their weaknesses and try to exploit them.

Half of your players are also set for roles they're not the best at (Walcott, AOC, Ramsey, Giroud, Sanchez).

Quote

Mentality - I don't want to go to an extreme scale, so I discard Contain, defensive, attacking and overload. 1) You know I like low risk tactics, so I'll use counter mentality, but that doesn't mean I want to play counterattacking. I won't complain if counterattacks are triggered but that is not the main plan. 2) I want 2 solid banks of four when defending and a more patient style when attacking. I only use counter because it's the lowest of the normal mentalities.

1) By using attacking duties you're already taking risks, especially with the wingers.
2) What about a 4-4-1-1, control/standard mentality with a structured team shape? I feel like this will answer your needs better than a counter-attacking mentality.

Hope this can help. Cheers

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, Toffle said:

I feel like you're using too many attacking duties for a counter mentality (you should use 0-1). You're also 'pushing higher up' when counter-attacking is, by definition: "Sitting deep in your own half and staying sturdy in defence. Then when winning the ball back and the opposition has over commit men forward, launching explosive counter attacks to take advantage of the space they’ve left behind." see https://community.sigames.com/topic/362162-the-art-of-counter-attacking/

I also think that counter-attacking is not the best mentality for Arsenal. Because of the quality of your players, other team will probably be defending or counter-attacking against you. Instead, you should try to retain the ball possession, make your opponents run, find their weaknesses and try to exploit them.

Half of your players are also set for roles they're not the best at (Walcott, AOC, Ramsey, Giroud, Sanchez).

1) By using attacking duties you're already taking risks, especially with the wingers.
2) What about a 4-4-1-1, control/standard mentality with a structured team shape? I feel like this will answer your needs better than a counter-attacking mentality.

Hope this can help. Cheers

Looping has made it clear that he wants low risk play, which won't be Control etc Mentalities as Mentality is a risk modifier. He has also said he's not looking to specifically counter attack.

By using a low risk Mentality, he will be retaining possession (not take risks) so doing exactly what you said already.

He's also not playing a high line, just pushing a little higher up than the default line, which is fairly deep. So it'll still be a fairly deep line. It's all relative.

[Toffle]

I agree it's all relative. To me, a standard or control mentality with only 2/3 attacking duties is low-risk. If it's too high for him, he could still go with some PIs, TIs and PPMs to make it even lower risk.