FM 17 - a Plan B for when sitting deep fails

[cregan]

For the past couple of FMs, I've gone down the route of trying fluid, pressing styles but when the beta of 17 hit I started a game with Sunderland, who simply don't have the squad for it. They're in the bottom 2-3 in the league for Work Rate, Decisions, Stamina, etc. But they've got some decent passers of the ball and a striker lethal when playing off the shoulder of the last man in Defoe, so it seemed like a perfect chance to try and make a soak-and-counter tactic work, in the vein of last year's Leicester, something I've never had success with in FM.

Pre-season was mediocre, starting Counter/Flexible with a lopsided 4-1-4-1 and the only TI being "pass into space", with Borini advanced as an RMD/IF, before pulling him back to WM with PIs to keep him raumdeuter-ish, until Jambo’s excellent Leicester thread gave me a crucial couple of nudges - play Standard but drop deeper, go Structured - to shape what’s become my Plan A.

What I lack is a Plan B for when it goes wrong.

Plan A:

Standard/Structured
TIs: Pass into space, Drop much deeper
MR: Roam from position, Cut inside, Cross less often
ML: Cross from deep, More risky passes
GK: Roll it out, Distribute quickly, Fewer risky passes

The basic tactical plan is to sit deep, soak up pressure, don’t do anything silly, and then when the situation presents itself, Cattermole to Januzaj to Defoe/Borini equals goal, and if that doesn’t work out then there should be support on hand to pick up the second phase without leaving everything open in our own half. The back four mostly stay put, with the DR covering for the more wanderlust-prone faux-RMD and the DL free to overlap if we’re not on a quick counter and Januzaj puts his foot on the ball instead.

I’d expected the formation and instructions to make for plenty of counters, assuming the ME and the way counterattacks are triggered hadn’t changed drastically, and it has, but the Standard mentality seems to give the team a little more urgency with the ball when the counter’s not on compared to the actual Counter mentality.

So far (allowing for a now-patched crash bug that cost us a wonderful 4-0 thumping of Swansea and a repeat humiliating defeat by Bristol City), and despite only making two first-team signings (and one of those just a young, cheap A/MC because Khazri was out for ages with a broken ankle), the results have been remarkable. After ten league games:

One of the best scoring rates in the league - Defoe has 10 in 10, Borini 6 in 9 - and only Man Utd have a tighter defence. Second in the table. Not only nothing to worry about, but also something I should probably bug report to SI .

The problem

The problem is, I haven’t found a successful Plan B. Bristol City hammered us (twice, effectively), we didn’t get a shot on target against a struggling Leicester side, and barely scraped a win over Middlesbrough. 

All three teams sat back, and in Leicester’s case, sat back and sat very narrow, and against teams playing that way we really struggle to break through, becoming ineffective going forward, more vulnerable at the back.

It’s not about the individual goals scored against us in those games, but about the play in between. The way we’re unable to find space, to pick the right pass, let alone a shot, and teams are then free to chance their arm when the opportunity arises in the same way we are, and deny us the ball when the option's not there because we're not working especially hard to get it back. Man City had 62% possession, 23/6 shots to our 17/8, and 10 corners to our 2 (which suggests at the kind of dogged defence this was), and we hammered them because soaking up pressure and hitting on the break worked an absolute treat. Against Bristol City, by comparison, we were almost even numbers-wise, and I don’t think we even had a shot on target until we were 3-0 down.

I've tried bumping up mentality, bumping up individual mentality for the DR, shifting Borini to his natural AMR position, having Defoe drop back as a DLF, but nothing has had much impact so far. (Even against Bristol City; they were home and hosed and were playing like it while we flapped at goal like a pub side.)

The options

The squad is short, languid and prone to making poor choices (like signing for Sunderland ). But it’s reasonably quick and has good flair and technical ability.

1. A battering ram. We’ve got Anichebe on the bench, who’s a slower, bigger player than Defoe. Either switch the lone ST role or bring him in as one of a pair alongside Defoe and lose a midfielder (probably the CM(a)) to go 4-4-2 or 4-1-3-2. The downside is that Anichebe isn’t much of a battering ram as battering rams go.

2. Throw caution to the wind. I had success, and some decent footie, playing 3-4-1-2 in FM16 with a squad not exactly full of terriers willing to chase every ball when attacks broke down (Control/Fluid, shorter passing but without an emphasis on possession). Sunderland’s DCs are pretty pacy, which would help reduce vulnerability to the counter. The regular starting XI could play this formation, with Jones moving into DRC, Taylor shifting up to ML and Januzaj going to AMC. As either a BWM or CM(d), Cattermole would be forever getting sent off, which would be the downside.

3. Tiki-taka, minus the press. Go short with the passing, keep the ball, try to work openings without giving anything away. Switch DL/DR to support duty wingbacks and Januzaj to full-on WP, lower the tempo. DM to REG, with a CM(d) and probably CM(s) ahead.

Of the three possibilities so far, I’m leaning towards the third the most as it wouldn’t involve changing formation and thus would probably have the least of a familiarity hit (though I’d be inclined to shift shape to Fluid for greater creativity). Thoughts?

[Guest]

Cleons "Walls of Jericho" helped me.

 

http://sisportscentre.com/building-a-tactic-from-the-beginning-the-walls-of-jericho/

[jukilo]

Interesting thread. I like this kind of tactical options in a forum full of pressing and tiki taka.

Couple of questions:

- How do you find your AF in this kind of setup? Does he perform like you expect? Is he isolated? Specially on a structured setup on a team like Sunderland

- Again, on a team like Sunderland is the DLP an enough contributor to your game? I'd expect if he's marked your side could suffer a lot and be disjointed. 

I was about to suggest that thread and you've pointed the possible solutions I'd give so for the moment I don't have anything special to add. Maybe post one or two pkm for people to see and maybe add something.

Keep up the good work.

[cregan]

3 hours ago, Crazy_Ivan said:

Cleons "Walls of Jericho" helped me.

 

http://sisportscentre.com/building-a-tactic-from-the-beginning-the-walls-of-jericho/

Ah yes. I remember this series. I'll have to read back through it (though as I vaguely recall, it'd probably lean towards Option 3 as well). 

 

29 minutes ago, jukilo said:

Interesting thread. I like this kind of tactical options in a forum full of pressing and tiki taka.

Couple of questions:

- How do you find your AF in this kind of setup? Does he perform like you expect? Is he isolated? Specially on a structured setup on a team like Sunderland

- Again, on a team like Sunderland is the DLP an enough contributor to your game? I'd expect if he's marked your side could suffer a lot and be disjointed. 

I was about to suggest that thread and you've pointed the possible solutions I'd give so for the moment I don't have anything special to add. Maybe post one or two pkm for people to see and maybe add something.

Keep up the good work.

- The AF is superb when the opposition plays a high-to-moderate D-line, or at least Defoe is with his PPMs. A lot of his goals come from long or long-diagonal balls for him to run on to from midway inside the opposition half. He's averaging a goal a game. Against deeper defences he goes missing, somewhat unsurprisingly, but he's less inclined to drop back deeper even with a deeper role. With Defoe on the pitch against a deep defence, I'm inclined to keep him in an advanced role (because he tends to play that way anyway and he's very good at it, it seems) and change instead the way we approach getting him the ball in the first place.

- You've got me wondering now. I'll have to double check the replays for Cattermole. I don't think he's getting shut down - playing as a deep-lying playmaker he's rarely the man to play the last ball (he doesn't have a single assist so far) through a forest of blocking midfielders, more the man to play the first ball and initiate a fresh attack at transition time, generally when everyone bar Defoe is inside our half since we sit so deep. What's possible is that Januzaj is getting marked out of the game, though, as I've given him a couple of WP-ish PIs (and he plays that role well - he's at 8 assists already this season, mostly diagonal/through balls). If that's so, allowing him to roam might be an option. Hmm... to the replay machine!

[jukilo]

Glad that Defoe is working as intended. Every goal is a good goal but those ones with through balls are always beautiful.

I don't know Cattermole stats but maybe a good solution against stubborn sides and since he's your playmaker could be choosing an anchor or DM in front of your defense, put a more offensive duty on your other full back and maybe Cattermole as an AP(s) with a runner near him. But you know your squad better than I do and if you're happy with how it's playing it's your decision. Just see some pkm and tell your thoughts here. Always  good to chat about football

[Jambo98]

Interesting stuff and lovely to see you have Plan A working at least. 

One thing which catches my eye, which mirrors my own experience, is that those games you have highlighted as problematic are all away from home. You have highlighted that the lack of space was the cause, but are you absolutely certain? If you lose 3 v 0 (or are 3 v 0 down), that is quite an unusual scenario? Lack of space feels more likely the issue if you have a 0 v 0 with 10 shots (all likely to be long shots) or lose 1 v 0. 

Personally i think there is some tinkering still needed in the ME for home v away - but be interesting to look at the game where you did not manage a shot on target. Did you have lots of shots off target? That would make some sense, if they are sat in so deep then you are likely to resort to shots from distance. 

The other thing i noticed and admittedly this is just looking at a fixture list when you of course have seen the games, is that away from home you have conceded 10 goals in 6 games. At home only 3 conceded in 5 (and against some strong opposition). Those stats dont seem to suggest that the lack of space is your only issue? If they are sitting back, how are they scoring so many? 

Really interested to see what you do. I have the same issue away in terms of conceding, and with teams occasionally just running over the top of me so i hardly get a shot. I dont have many issues scoring away from home (other than against Chelsea / Arsenal now and then, and i just accept they are better). I do have the advantage that Vardy is a bit better than Defoe (although Defoe is still good in that role). 

The plan B i would love to try, but i don't really have the player for it, would be to work a WTM in there somewhere......really vary it. Never seen it working though. Poor Emile Heskey gets no love........

[cregan]

Ah, a WTM! I've never found a way of using one in any save I've had since they were introduced. Either I've never had the player or I've never had the wherewithall to figure out a system using one... 

I hadn't considered the possibility of a home/away split at all, but having gone through the games I can't see a pattern there beyond some occasionally suspect marking at corners (which I'd probably put down to my defenders' lack of concentration more than anything else):

Chelsea (W1-2): We played 70 minutes with only 10 men, but we kept them at bay brilliantly (32 shots, only 7 on target, most from outside the box) even if we did ride our luck a little. They eventually scored when our DL was caught out of position and let Costa get round him to cross for Pedro but we saw out the rest of the match.

Bristol City (L3-1): They sat deep, playing 4-2-3-1 wide, and went for the counter. Goal 1 was a breakaway from our free kick just inside their half. Our defensive positioning is so very, very bad (Kirchoff and Manquillo run away towards the unoccupied, unthreatened left side of our box as though they've spotted an uneaten jaffa cake there, leaving City's striker ten yards of clear air all around him). Goal 2 is poor marking from a corner. Goal 3 is a neat passing move finished off with a whipped cross that Manquillo misses and their ML doesn't. (Because this is the League Cup, the team's somewhat different even if the system's the same. I did at least learn not to play Manquillo after this.)

Burnley (W2-3): Almost a repeat of Chelsea, in so much as they played very aggressively (26 shots, 10 on target, again mostly outside the box, versus our 8/4, half in and half out). After we scored from a defensive mix up, and then again from a lovely passing move finished off with a cross from inside the box from Januzaj to Borini, they make it 2-1 with a goal from a lousy defensive header from Januzaj following a break down the Burnley left. We promptly make it 3-1 with Defoe laying it off for the onrushing BBM, before we concede from a corner. Not a free header this time, just a lost aerial challenge.

Liverpool (D1-1): Difficult as I'd expected, with 39 shots, 13 on target, against us, mostly from outside the area. We have a mighty 4 in reply, only one of them on target. Liverpool only take the lead through a free kick when Kone loses Wijnaldum and he taps in, though. Our equaliser is quality, with Cattermole knocking it long from next to our corner flag to Defoe on the halfway line. He lays it off to McNair at CM(a). McNair plays a lovely long diagonal through ball for Borini to rush on to and he places it neatly in the corner. And I still think it's a deserved point.

Leicester (L2-0): A dreadful slog in the trenches, this game. Leicester win it with two headers from corners (Vardy flicking on for Slimani, Huth then running across his marker). Leicester have 17 shots, 6 on, while we manage 8/0. In both cases, mostly from outside the area.

Of these, the Leicester game is definitely the problem one. They didn't win through playing more cleverly or slickly (though they do mark/press much more effectively), but because they were able to break our deep lines down and we had nothing in reply when faced with a very, very similar approach. Some examples:

Leicester goal kick. Their back line is about as deep as mine when the situation is reversed, but it’s so narrow. Even if Kone (23) beats Slimani to the ball (he does), even if the header squirms through to Defoe (18) (it doesn’t), the centre is packed and Defoe's going to have to face Morgan and Huth alone.

As it is, Amartey (13, MCR) intercepts and knocks it to King (10, MCL). Our defensive shape here is good - not as narrow as Leicester's, but I'm happy with this. When King tries to pop it over the top to Vardy (9) because there’s little else on save perhaps the long ball out right which Januzaj would have a shout at intercepting, Djilibodji (5) snaffles it out of the air and comes away with it.

A little later on, King’s (10) had possession in midfield and tried the same ball to Vardy again. This time Cattermole intercepts and hits it forward first time to Ndong (17, our BBM). (He could have tried to hit it really long over the top for Defoe to chase since he’s in the gap that hasn’t yet closed between Morgan (5) and Huth (6) but doesn’t. Shame, but then this is Lee "picked up an unnecessary booking" Cattermole, not Andrea Pirlo.)

Ndong tries to run around King and ends up heading across field because King tracks him all the way (and tackles him just after this screenshot). Leicester’s back four are dropping back all the time, with Amartey covering them as they go (they’re playing 4-4-2 but he’s effectively a DM here) and there’s no ball on to Defoe. Ndong could knock it to Januzaj but chooses not to for… I’m not sure why not. Did I mention our poor decision-making?

Looking again at the Leicester game in particular I'm inclined to think that pushing higher and passing shorter, with more support for Defoe and more options in midfield, might have borne fruit. Leicester marked so tightly in midfield, with Amartey often doubling up on our players whenever we got near the box (particularly in the late second half, when I pushed Harrop up to AMC to try to break through), that we were forever crowded out. Trying to stretch play and go wider would be an option, though there our lack of height might tell.

[Jambo98]

That last screenshot is quite telling for me, and possibly highlights the weakness of your system when you need to break through. Defoe is litterally the only forward passing option for Ndong at that point. My view would be that you need to get at least one wide man involved in those scenarios. It sounds like Borini is doing a good job stats wise, but that screenshot would highlight the big difference between a WM and RDM in the AM slot. I nearly always have 2 threats, which in itself creates space. 

I would think about whether you move one or more wide men up a slot against teams who have parked the bus. The option to move your playmaker further forward (from DM to AM) is probably quite tricky to suceed with, since the opposition are already heavy with bodies in that area. 

[cregan]

Moving up the wide men (probably Januzaj since I've tried Borini a few times - including, IIRC, later in that Leicester game - without any obvious impact) is definitely one option, but another possibility I think is to bring Defoe closer and move both banks of four up the pitch. I'm four matches further on now (a routine home 3-1 win against Watford, a 2-1 loss away on a wet Saturday at Stoke where we fell to a last minute Walters goal, a 0-2 beating at home by Man U, and a 1-4 hammering of Everton at Goodison) and against Stoke and Utd I tried a couple of tweaks. The latter in particular - playing in traditional Mourinho sit-back-and-break style - we were better against with a switch to a higher line and more compact shape.

But the key to my thinking is the Everton game. They played a deepish 4-2DM-3-1 and we destroyed them playing our regular Plan A; it was the first game all season where we've been (well) ahead on shots and possession. They scored with their second shot on goal in the 75th minute, and we could've had eight or nine by that point. But with their DMs (I presume) pushing the D-line back, Defoe found himself in the hole between the lines a lot and spent the game playing creator rather than scorer (finishing with assists for Khazri and Borini) despite his PPMs. Giving him a more withdrawn role against a deeper defence might give him the space to come into the game and allow him to bring other players on to threaten the goal. The MR doesn't break forward as quickly as he would at AMR, obviously, but if the opposition's sitting off I'm not sure - especially with Borini and his understudy Watmore's suspect mental atttributes - whether there'll be much Raum for them to Deuter anyway.

So, against teams playing with a DM, or a flat midfield like Leicester with a definite holding MC, I'm thinking:

(Probably with Taylor actually as a WB(a); I realised I missed that after getting the screen grab.)

Control/Fluid, TIs to pass shorter, push higher up, work ball into box, with Januzaj and Borini with the same PIs as before.

Cattermole, who even as a DLP tends only to pass into the midfield strata, can sit as cover and a safe possession option. Defoe can either occupy the DM or find a little space between, and while Khazri might have to contend with the opponent's defensive MC - as will whoever's there - he should at least have options around him at all times, while the more adventurous wingbacks give some extra width.

Against teams playing with an AM, like the counterattacking 4-2-3-1 wide used by Bristol City and Man Utd:

Mentality/shape, TIs and PIs as before. (It also won't be Cattermole playing at AM, obviously.)

Without an opposing defensive midfielder, the AP can slot further forward into space and the CF(s) role's greater movement should mean Defoe won't be falling over him. 

Hopefully, anyway. 

[ajsr1982]

I saw this and decided to have a go at something similar with my struggling Como side in Serie C.

Here are my observations...

I'd had a fair bit of success in Serie C before with the bus parking variant of the 4-1-4-1. A real Pulis effort. Centre backs in the full back positions. Full backs in the wide midfield positions. Three workhorses in the middle of the park and a battering ram of a centre forward. Took me 3-4 seasons to get it right, but once I did, I bored my way into Serie A with consecutive promotions with lowly Ischia.

So I tried to do the same thing. I don't want to say 'it's the ME' but the 'Counter' mentality seems to play more like 'Defensive' from FM16. Players show little to no inclination to get forward to support the front man, and are all too willing to aimlessly pump long balls at my forward, with limited success.

The set up with this, incidentally was...

GK/D

FB/S    CD/D    CD/D    FB/S

A/D

WM/S    BBM/S   CM/S   WM/S

DF/S

 

So I've had to tinker with things a little. First, I need some sort of attacking threat, and I can't just pump balls at my front man if the rest aren't getting up to support him. So the first thing is for me GK to play it short. I'll try to build things up slowly.

The next thing is that I need some attacking intent. People breaking the lines from deep. Which means attack duties, so I made the following changes.

- Right back changed to FB/A

- Left back changed to WB/S

- Left midfielder changed to W/A

At that point there were still a couple of problems. The counter mentality was really, erm, counter-productive, I found. For a couple of reasons. First, players really stand off opponents. In FM16, this wasn't too much of a problem I found, because packing the pitch forced players wide, but in this installment, players seem better equipped to pass through the centre of the pitch. A combination of this, and conceding to long shots meant I was shipping too many goals. Allied to that, I think the counter mentality encourages my own players to shoot from distance more. Some of that is caused by a lack of support, of course. To combat that, I did a couple of things.

- Switched from Counter to Standard to get my players a bit further up the pitch.

- Added the TI 'Get Stuck In.' That's not an instruction to press, rather an instruction to put your foot in when you're close enough to do so.

It was better, but I was still playing too many long balls and giving the ball away too easily. An easy fix there...

- Added the TI 'Shorter Passing.'

- Added 'Roam From Positions.'

These were the changes that were something of a revelation actually, because I was no longer simply surrendering possession. I don't dominate possession. Sometimes I do, but not always. That's because my team gets behind the ball when I lose possession, but when I get the ball back, they're more careful with it. It's a more considered build up play. Roam From Positions gives my players a bit more license to move into space to support the man with the ball, and it really works. It comes with a slight risk on the defensive transition, but it's a risk I'm happy to live with.

So the final set-up is this...

GK/D

FB/A    CD/D    CD/D    WB/S

A/D

WM/S    BBM/S   CM/S   W/A

DLF/S

I changed to a DLF to add a bit more creativity up front. I should add that the star of the show here is the left winger. Something that I've noted elsewhere on the forums, and something I really like in FM17, is that players play roles very differently depending on whether they're left or right footed. I have a right-footed left winger and he does two things. First, when he has the ball, he naturally cuts inside and drives at the opposition CDs, which frees up other players if he can commit a CD. Without the ball, he is fantastic at running into the gap between the opposition FB and CD. I get in behind A LOT via this pass, and then I get the DLF, the BBM and the WM making the box for the pull back.

Things I might do against various teams.

- Against teams that push up, I might hit 'Exploit Left Flank' and 'Pass Into Space.'

- Against teams that sit in, 'Play Wider' and 'Dribble Less.' The idea being to move the ball more (the ball moves faster than a man can run) and to stretch the play.

Defensively, it's been good as well. My keeper went on a 500 minute plus streak without conceding, and I've yet to concede more than one in a game. I really like this tactic. It's defensively resolute, it's able to recycle the ball against teams that sit in, and it has something in behind for teams that push up.

[cregan]

That was my (relatively limited) experience with Counter as well. It did seem to be much more conservative in possession than in FM16, and you're right about through balls seemingly more common and more effective (not that that's a bad thing). Even though ME-defined counterattacks won't trigger as often using Standard, I do find that overall play is better using that mentality and with a drop deeper instruction it's possible to create an effective counterattacking style.

An off-footed winger can be a great asset - as with a two-footed player with the PPM "runs with the ball on [opposite side]", something else that will cause them to cut inside without needing IF instructions. Though they're then vulnerable to being forced out wide and on their weaker foot.