why cant i tell a backup player...

[baresi]

that he cant expect more football because he is a backup player and not a regular. he signed a contract as a backup so he better should shout up just because he hasnt played in 10 games. this is annoying.

[treble_yell_:-)]

There is so much obvious stuff missing from the squad interaction stuff.

Id would be hugely beneficial to be able to talk to p a player about how he feels when an offer comes in for him before having to accept or reject as well.

[Cougar2010]

17 minutes ago, baresi said:

that he cant expect more football because he is a backup player and not a regular. he signed a contract as a backup so he better should shout up just because he hasnt played in 10 games. this is annoying.

A backup player isn't someone you just shove to the side & forget about.

He is part of the squad and expects to be used as such.  10 games without playing he should be complaining, depending on his personality he expects to start around 10 games a season so he should have started at least a couple of those 10 matches.

The problem isn't the interaction its the way you perceive & run your squad.

[trevjim]

37 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

A backup player isn't someone you just shove to the side & forget about.

He is part of the squad and expects to be used as such.  10 games without playing he should be complaining, depending on his personality he expects to start around 10 games a season so he should have started at least a couple of those 10 matches.

The problem isn't the interaction its the way you perceive & run your squad.

Not entirely true. Take liverpool for example, last season they signed Steven caulker on loan for 6 months, he played about 20 mins in total.

This season alex manninger, he hasnt played since pre season and barring injuries to karius/mig he wont.

Lucas and klavan wont get a game unless its a efl/fa cup against some minnows.

[Cougar2010]

2 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Not entirely true. Take liverpool for example, last season they signed Steven caulker on loan for 6 months, he played about 20 mins in total.

This season alex manninger, he hasnt played since pre season and barring injuries to karius/mig he wont.

Lucas and klavan wont get a game unless its a efl/fa cup against some minnows.

We aren't talking about real life as there isn't a squad status IRL.

We are talking about FM and about what the squad status means.

[trevjim]

2 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

We aren't talking about real life as there isn't a squad status IRL.

We are talking about FM and about what the squad status means.

Thats exactly what squad status' are for, because we cant talk to them like irl, we give them a status that essentially paraphrases what we would have said to them..........

 

Key player = first name on team sheet.

First team = will make most 11s, occasionally bench

Rotation = get some games here and there, a few in the cup and cover injuries.

Backup = wont get a look in unless there is injuries or other reasons for absence or exclusion.

 

Backup is what OP is talking about, you seem to feel that he is on about rotational players

[treble_yell_:-)]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

A backup player isn't someone you just shove to the side & forget about.

He is part of the squad and expects to be used as such.  10 games without playing he should be complaining, depending on his personality he expects to start around 10 games a season so he should have started at least a couple of those 10 matches.

The problem isn't the interaction its the way you perceive & run your squad.

You're describing essentially what FM defines as a rotation player. Backup absolutely shouldn't be expecting to start much at all bar an injury crisis.

[Thebaker]

20 minutes ago, trevjim said:

 

 

Key player = first name on team sheet.

First team = will make most 11s, occasionally bench

Rotation = Will start about 1 in 3 games, usually a bench player

Backup = get some games here and there, a few in the cup and cover injuries.

 

 

This is my understanding of what players will expect, no players in fm  think they won't play except goalies

[themadsheep2001]

Anyone thinking rotation is 1 in 3 is for a bit of a shock.

If you play 50 games a season, that's 16 games. That's not rotation.

[Cougar2010]

22 minutes ago, trevjim said:

Thats exactly what squad status' are for, because we cant talk to them like irl, we give them a status that essentially paraphrases what we would have said to them..........

 

Key player = first name on team sheet.

First team = will make most 11s, occasionally bench

Rotation = get some games here and there, a few in the cup and cover injuries.

Backup = wont get a look in unless there is injuries or other reasons for absence or exclusion.

 

Backup is what OP is talking about, you seem to feel that he is on about rotational players

You have the right idea but your understanding of what each status means is wrong.

Key player & first team are about right although they will be happy with less.

Rotation players should be starting at least 33% of matches and be involved in half.

Backup players expect to play 10-15 matches a season.

 

The last time I saw SI post on the subject the actual coding was slightly less than the above and all are modified by the player's personality.

Your understanding of what "Backup" means in FM is 100% wrong.

[treble_yell_:-)]

1 minute ago, Cougar2010 said:

You have the right idea but your understanding of what each status means is wrong.

Key player & first team are about right although they will be happy with less.

Rotation players should be starting at least 33% of matches and be involved in half.

Backup players expect to play 10-15 matches a season.

 

The last time I saw SI post on the subject the actual coding was slightly less than the above and all are modified by the player's personality.

Your understanding of what "Backup" means in FM is 100% wrong.

Then show us the receipts.

Where is the documentation on this ?

 

[themadsheep2001]

3 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

You have the right idea but your understanding of what each status means is wrong.

Key player & first team are about right although they will be happy with less.

Rotation players should be starting at least 33% of matches and be involved in half.

Backup players expect to play 10-15 matches a season.

 

The last time I saw SI post on the subject the actual coding was slightly less than the above and all are modified by the player's personality.

Your understanding of what "Backup" means in FM is 100% wrong.

Might have been Brocky who posted this, havent seen it for ages.

[Cougar2010]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Might have been Brocky who posted this, havent seen it for ages.

I don't think it was.

Pretty sure it was someone else, off the top of my head it might have been John and if I remember right it was FM15 & Hunt3r was involved in the discussion.

[treble_yell_:-)]

So it's another example of something of information that users should have but don't because they don't have 18000 posts on a football manager forum.

The squad status definition get absolutely no breakdown in the online manual or a tooltip in game.

 

[themadsheep2001]

2 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

So it's another example of something of information that users should have but don't because they don't have 18000 posts on a football manager forum.

The squad status definition get absolutely no breakdown in the online manual or a tooltip in game.

 

The squad status will vary based on personality too, up to you as a manager to find that balance. You don't need a post from SI to work that out.

[trevjim]

7 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

You have the right idea but your understanding of what each status means is wrong.

Key player & first team are about right although they will be happy with less.

Rotation players should be starting at least 33% of matches and be involved in half.

Backup players expect to play 10-15 matches a season.

 

The last time I saw SI post on the subject the actual coding was slightly less than the above and all are modified by the player's personality.

Your understanding of what "Backup" means in FM is 100% wrong.

Fair enough

But then it goes back to the ops point, why cant he tell the player they are 'just there as cover' its not overly commen but teams do have 1 or 2 players in that role of a true 'backup'

As you say though, perhaps the wording of the backup squad status isnt quite true to the role.

[Thebaker]

Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

The squad status will vary based on personality too, up to you as a manager to find that balance.

A professional player will only moan if completely forgotten. A temperamental player will moan if they miss a single game

[JWVG]

Unfortunatly you can't sign players on "not needed"...

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, trevjim said:

Fair enough

But then it goes back to the ops point, why cant he tell the player they are 'just there as cover' its not overly commen but teams do have 1 or 2 players in that role of a true 'backup'

As you say though, perhaps the wording of the backup squad status isnt quite true to the role.

Ambition comes into it as well. There's your view of the players standing in the squad, and there is their view, and they dont always match (depending on the player personality, unreasonably so)

In FM16, there were definitely occasions where the timing of their fuss was outright wierd, and if you see any of that raise it, but overall it's largely where it should be.

[Cougar2010]

5 minutes ago, treble_yell_:-) said:

So it's another example of something of information that users should have but don't because they don't have 18000 posts on a football manager forum.

The squad status definition get absolutely no breakdown in the online manual or a tooltip in game.

 

Users don't really need it because its massively modified by other factors such as personality, reputation, perceived ability of the player & his perceived ability of other players as well as current performances etc.

I really don't get the need for everything to be broken down to the smallest piece of code and spoon fed to the user.  FM is supposed to be muddy where things aren't clear because thats what RL is like.

Within the game you get advice from your staff & conversations with the players just like you would IRL.  They inform you when they are unhappy & the reasons why, even before then their information page gives you hints such as "Would like more first team chances".

In general terms I've always worked on the following and then adapted based on individual players:

Key - 90% of games

1st Team - 75%

Rotation - 50%

Backup - 25%

 

When SI gave hints as to the actual coding figures I was surprised that they were lower than that but I'm also presuming the figures were before any modifications.

[Cougar2010]

Don't think its the one I was thinking of but here is a post by John that is relevant:

 

[Fer Fuchs Ake]

I can see where OP is coming from here. ‘Backup’ in normal circumstances would imply a Plan B if a Plan A fails. E.g. A player that plays when other players in that position are injured/tired/out of form. Though I fuuly understand that a player's personality and reputation will impact this and that you should play backups every so often, you should be able to tell the player that they agreed contractually to be a backup.

The only backups I've ever had complain were goalkeepers who I just went on to sell. 

[rinso]

http://www.liverpoolfc.com/news/first-team/228619-liverpool-complete-deal-for-alex-manninger

 

Maybe this option needs to be in there then. Reading the article, hes acknowledging he's a back up and nothing more, here to step in when and if needed and he is happy with that. Should that be reflected in certain personalities, or in keepers towards the end of their careers? 

[podunkboy]

Okay, what about a 17-year-old, signed as "Youngster" status for a Scottish League 2 team, he's in the U-18s and DEMANDING first-team play or "he'll make it difficult for me"? He's got one gold star, he's NOT going to get a start because everyone in a senior squad is 2.5-4.5 stars and I have board expectation to win the league. I resent being threatened by snot-nosed punks and having the press asking me the same tired question every day for a week. "Are you going to give him the first team play he's asking for?" "Sure, and then I'm going to buy him some cotton candy and a pony!"

[rinso]

3 minutes ago, podunkboy said:

Okay, what about a 17-year-old, signed as "Youngster" status for a Scottish League 2 team, he's in the U-18s and DEMANDING first-team play or "he'll make it difficult for me"? He's got one gold star, he's NOT going to get a start because everyone in a senior squad is 2.5-4.5 stars and I have board expectation to win the league. I resent being threatened by snot-nosed punks and having the press asking me the same tired question every day for a week. "Are you going to give him the first team play he's asking for?" "Sure, and then I'm going to buy him some cotton candy and a pony!"

what "promises" did you make when signing?   what prompted that discussion ? 

[KUBI]

I think we should ask for "perspective player" as a new player status.

[podunkboy]

3 hours ago, rinso said:

what "promises" did you make when signing?   what prompted that discussion ? 

So far as I recall, there was a squad status of "youngster", no mention of first team anything. I didn't even put him in the senior side, he went right into the U-18s. 

[HUNT3R]

6 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Users don't really need it because its massively modified by other factors such as personality, reputation, perceived ability of the player & his perceived ability of other players as well as current performances etc.

I really don't get the need for everything to be broken down to the smallest piece of code and spoon fed to the user.  FM is supposed to be muddy where things aren't clear because thats what RL is like.

Within the game you get advice from your staff & conversations with the players just like you would IRL.  They inform you when they are unhappy & the reasons why, even before then their information page gives you hints such as "Would like more first team chances".

In general terms I've always worked on the following and then adapted based on individual players:

Key - 90% of games

1st Team - 75%

Rotation - 50%

Backup - 25%

 

When SI gave hints as to the actual coding figures I was surprised that they were lower than that but I'm also presuming the figures were before any modifications.

Not sure about backups specifically, but I've seen an SI post somewhere that listed Rotation players should be getting around 40-50% of league games.

 

The rest of the numbers look okay to me, but I can't remember SI numbers in these cases. If I were to be really picky, I'd lower First Team and Key Player by 5-10% each, but again, that's my opinion. I don't know about backups because I try not having them in the squad. My backups are the younger Hot Prospects hoping for a first team place in the future.

 There are a lot of other factors too though. Player personality, probably age and definitely the player's opinion of what squad status he should have based on his ability vs the squad.

[JordanMilly]

8 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Don't think its the one I was thinking of but here is a post by John that is relevant:

 

@HUNT3R - This seems to be the last post on the issue from SI. I've checked around, and I can't find anything more recent than that.

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

@HUNT3R - This seems to be the last post on the issue from SI. I've checked around, and I can't find anything more recent than that.

It doesn't change anything I said. I've seen a very recent post from SI stating that 40-50% of league games for a Rotation player is roughly the idea.

It makes sense considering a squad rotation system should be regularly rotating players.

The rest of my post is my own opinion.

[JordanMilly]

Fair enough, though the issue still remains - why haven't we been told categorically how many matches each one of the ranks requires, even in general terms? Different staffers tell us different things, and it makes things harder for us to build our squad.

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Fair enough, though the issue still remains - why haven't we been told categorically how many matches each one of the ranks requires, even in general terms? Different staffers tell us different things, and it makes things harder for us to build our squad.

Is it that difficult to understand though? Even if you don't have percentages, Key Players will expect to play most matches (KEY player), First Team (which again, should be clear?) will expect to play most matches, Rotation (being part of a rotation system) will expect to be in that rotation so half the matches and backups are backups, so some matches.

 

There are other factors which will trigger these conversations though, so if SI give exact figures, people lose their mind as usual if things are slightly different.

[Guest]

This is a very interesting thread, thank you! I think it's quite nice that player temperament has such an impact on this.

 

I would also like to have player temperament affect substitutions. Perhaps it's there, but I haven't seen it. Does anyone get upset when they're substituted? Or was this removed from the game after Mido retired?

[jc1]

I always use younger players as backup, purely for the fact they don't expect to play all the time, they'll get around 8-10 league games and play in the lesser cups, outwith that they'll be kept fit by playing in the U20 development team. I've always seen Key and 1st team as first 11 players on the sheet and barring injury will start almost every game, Rotation will play around half the games and be regular subs getting game time from the bench. Unfortunately certain players want more football than expected but that boils down to their individual psyche and how ambitious he is.

[Cougar2010]

9 hours ago, podunkboy said:

Okay, what about a 17-year-old, signed as "Youngster" status for a Scottish League 2 team, he's in the U-18s and DEMANDING first-team play or "he'll make it difficult for me"? He's got one gold star, he's NOT going to get a start because everyone in a senior squad is 2.5-4.5 stars and I have board expectation to win the league. I resent being threatened by snot-nosed punks and having the press asking me the same tired question every day for a week. "Are you going to give him the first team play he's asking for?" "Sure, and then I'm going to buy him some cotton candy and a pony!"

In real life we communicate on a daily basis with many people who differ in personalities not all of them easy to get along with.  FM is no different.

Lets start with yourself as the manager, you are at a Scottish League 2 team which implies you probably don't have a high skillset in the game.  Discipline is a manager attribute that defines how often players raise issues.  A low discipline attribute means players raise issues more often then if you have a high discipline attribute.

Moving onto the player at 17yo he has 1* which more or less means he is ahead of the curve for people his age.  How does his 1* compare to other first team players in his position? and are they natural in that position?  If you have plenty then clearly his demands don't really hold water and you disagree with him.  Then you move onto his personality, high ambition means he'll demand more, low professionalism and he'll raise issues more and a bad temperament means he'll complain more.

Should these type of players exist in FM? absolutely because they exist IRL.  Managers in all walks of life have to deal with a wide range of staff personalities and FM is no different.  If you feel he doesn't have a case when he complains tell him that.  If he becomes too much of an issue then you get rid.

Building a squad isn't just about what players can do on the field its about building a squad off the field as well.

[HUNT3R]

Yeah, sounds like he has a bad personality. High Controversy, maybe?

[Cougar2010]

2 hours ago, JordanMillward_1 said:

Fair enough, though the issue still remains - why haven't we been told categorically how many matches each one of the ranks requires, even in general terms? Different staffers tell us different things, and it makes things harder for us to build our squad.

I think the honest answer is they don't really know themselves and so its difficult to say X+Y=Z which is what a lot of users ask for.

There are so many variables involved that you have to work on a case by case basis.  As the user you should be using the ingame triggers to make mental or even physical notes and getting to know your players so you know which are more likely to complain & when.

[eriktous]

It's also not just about the players. With every answer you give in a private talk or press conference, you're shaping your in game manager personality. If you're always refusing players who ask for more playing time, you will become to be seen as strict. Some players will react to this by coming to you with issues less often, because they'll expect it to be pointless anyway, others may think they'll just need to press their point sooner and more strongly to get what they want out of you.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, eriktous said:

It's also not just about the players. With every answer you give in a private talk or press conference, you're shaping your in game manager personality. If you're always refusing players who ask for more playing time, you will become to be seen as strict. Some players will react to this by coming to you with issues less often, because they'll expect it to be pointless anyway, others may think they'll just need to press their point sooner and more strongly to get what they want out of you.

Is it your Discipline attribute that also affects this? I forget which one it is.

[eriktous]

That's what I assume, yes. I think I remember reading somewhere that it could help with these issues employing an assistant manager with a high discipline rating if your own isn't that high.

[sparkysrovers]

The squad status tends to get thrown out the window too with relation to form, if you have a key player playing badly, you're hardly going to keep playing him and then you call someone else up? Its a catch 22 system

[Thebaker]

1 hour ago, eriktous said:

That's what I assume, yes. I think I remember reading somewhere that it could help with these issues employing an assistant manager with a high discipline rating if your own isn't that high.

Thats an interesting idea which i have never considered, i only look for JPP and JPA and maybe coaching attributes when looking at ass man.

[podunkboy]

Ordinarily, when a youngster starts wanting more play, I'd just loan him out, but I don't know if this is a FM17 thing or a League 2 Scotland thing, but NO ONE'S coming in with loan offers. (I suspect because there's no active league below us.) I know that the other teams had players listed for loan, but when I went in with an offer, they all gave me the "doesn't want to loan to another team in the same league" rejection. So those players aren't going anywhere else, either. Even after we were promoted to League One, no one from League Two wanted to loan players, either. 

[enigmatic]

There are a rare few 17 year olds who think they should be starting games of course. That's why Man Utd ended up having to pay 100m to get Pogba back

The weakness with FM16 is that it didn't seem to have as much relation to player personalities as it should have done and didn't take into account context at all.

Had a save with a couple of editor-created players with what I'd consider to be essentially perfect attributes for being rotated (20 Professionalism, Loyalty and Temperament, 1 Controversy and 10 Ambition so they neither expect to be in the side nor worry they're not good enough) and I still had one complain in September, and the other rudely approach me saying he wasn't prepared to "let his career stagnate" midway through the season despite having not dropped a single hint that starting a third of games and regularly coming off the bench wasn't enough (for a low reputation 125CA/PA player on a good "rotation" contract at a massively overachieving Premiership club) then consider me to have "broken a promise" to give him a few starts after starting more than half and featuring in all but two of the games in the next three months, and then to consider that promise to have been renewed when I told him to be patient and wait his turn.

Would be much closer to real life if players like that just sent you occasional messages hinting they were hoping to become more involved that were optional to reply to, with the demanding style of conversation the interaction system uses being a very last resort (or the first resort for players with 20 Ambition and 8 Professionalism)

 

 

[Guest]

My own testing using the pre-game & in-game editor showed the same outcome during FM16 that you're describing, the type of complaint, frequency & reaction to conversations had no link to hidden attributes (personality). The only ratings that influenced behaviour were ability & reputation.

I'm very interested to see what happens once I create some test subjects in the editor for FM17.