Protecting a lead

[Godfarmer]

Forgive me if there's been a recent discussion but I couldn't find one on the search newer than 2014

Basically I just wanted to put together some thoughts on the best ways to keep a narrow lead or close out a game. I know there will be differing situations but I'm finding it difficult to see the game out. 

I am currntly playing 442 or 4141 on counter with a solid defence. Also find myself with a lead or good draw going into the last 10 minutes of a game, only to concede. Generally I would think to switch to defence or counter to cope with their extra attacks or put an extra man in the middle, but that's how I start the game! Find myself at a loss for what to do and either doing things out of the feeling of needing to do something or covering my eyes and hoping for the best.

How does everyone else counter this? Is it only tactical or could fresh legs also help?

So far have lost to 85th or later minutes 5 or 6 times recently. Was even 3-0 up against arsenal only to be pegged back

[Nozzer]

Make yourself narrower with FB (D) WM(S) on either side.  More players to play through centrally with the flanks covered.  Would depend largely on the type of team you are, who the opposition is and the kind of players available to you

For example changing to 'retain possession' with a lower tempo would mean keeping the ball for longer periods but will only work if you have the players to match

Each to their own and I'm not saying it doesn't work as it obviously will for some players but I am not a big fan of countering as I think it has too big an effect on yourteam shape meaning you can lose the ball and be counter countered

[Fosse]

Sometimes you don't need to make any changes, if it's worked for 80 minutes and you already have a reasonably solid set up switching to a more defensive mentality to counteract the AI going more aggressive can just invite pressure.

However, this is something I often can't decide upon myself, do I, a) become less risky so lower mentality, retain possession, change team shape to try and keep the ball and prevent the opposition having it but potentially get caught out by overplaying in dangerous areas; or b) avoid overplaying and try to take advantage of the opposition overcommitong themselves by using pass into space, higher tempo and more direct passing? 

Of course it's not a binary decision and but it's worth considering are you conceding because the opposition have thrown the kitchen sink at you or are you conceding because you've left yourselves short at the back? It's worth looking over the games you've lost in the analysis tab and looking for patterns.

[Ugeine]

How do the teams play that have done this to you?  I generally make note of the manager's preferred football style and any stats that might show how they're playing before going into a game and I'll treat keeping a lead differently depending how the team plays.

Generally speaking, if it's a passing team, the last thing I want to do is sit back, as this gives them more of the ball. The best way to defend against a passing team, I find, is to press and keep pressing.  Keep them pinned back in their area.  Reducing the mentality and sitting back is only going to give them more time on the ball, and more room to get back to playing their style of football.

It's the opposite with direct football though, just get a bit deeper, narrower and drop the mentality. 

Also, generally speaking, there's a few things I do when a couple of goals up. I generally play direct football in my current save, so I'll drop that down to mixed or shorter.  There's no point launching the ball forward so much if I've already got a couple of gaols.  Similarly, retain possession is useful, I want to keep the ball away from the opponents and I don't need so many risky passes.  Less aggressive or attacking roles (swapping an AMC Treq to an AP(S), for example) can help.  Finally, telling a few players to hold their position, or use the 'be more disciplined' TI will stop them getting caught out of position so much.  Generally speaking, I'll be looking to play a bit more conservatively without necessarily kneecapping my playing style.   

[Godfarmer]

Thanks for the replies so far - I like the idea of this becoming a wider debate as well as solving my issues. If anyone cares to air their solution to this that would be good. I have one way of playing, but everyone is different

[Godfarmer]

2 hours ago, Nozzer said:

Make yourself narrower with FB (D) WM(S) on either side.  More players to play through centrally with the flanks covered.  Would depend largely on the type of team you are, who the opposition is and the kind of players available to you

For example changing to 'retain possession' with a lower tempo would mean keeping the ball for longer periods but will only work if you have the players to match

Each to their own and I'm not saying it doesn't work as it obviously will for some players but I am not a big fan of countering as I think it has too big an effect on yourteam shape meaning you can lose the ball and be counter countered

Yes, I do not have the best squad so I think retaining possession will lead to more problems. But switching to more defensive roles for the full backs is something I'll try

[Godfarmer]

30 minutes ago, Ugeine said:

How do the teams play that have done this to you?  I generally make note of the manager's preferred football style and any stats that might show how they're playing before going into a game and I'll treat keeping a lead differently depending how the team plays.

Generally speaking, if it's a passing team, the last thing I want to do is sit back, as this gives them more of the ball. The best way to defend against a passing team, I find, is to press and keep pressing.  Keep them pinned back in their area.  Reducing the mentality and sitting back is only going to give them more time on the ball, and more room to get back to playing their style of football.

It's the opposite with direct football though, just get a bit deeper, narrower and drop the mentality. 

Also, generally speaking, there's a few things I do when a couple of goals up. I generally play direct football in my current save, so I'll drop that down to mixed or shorter.  There's no point launching the ball forward so much if I've already got a couple of gaols.  Similarly, retain possession is useful, I want to keep the ball away from the opponents and I don't need so many risky passes.  Less aggressive or attacking roles (swapping an AMC Treq to an AP(S), for example) can help.  Finally, telling a few players to hold their position, or use the 'be more disciplined' TI will stop them getting caught out of position so much.  Generally speaking, I'll be looking to play a bit more conservatively without necessarily kneecapping my playing style.   

Generally it is a better team than mine, example is Chelsea and Arsenal turning the result around late on. Usually they switch to 4231 and this I cannot counter

I didn't think to change the PIs to include be more disciplined so I'll try this next time as well as adjusting roles

i just think that the game knows when you swap a striker for CDM and punishes you heavily!

[Godfarmer]

1 hour ago, Fosse said:

Sometimes you don't need to make any changes, if it's worked for 80 minutes and you already have a reasonably solid set up switching to a more defensive mentality to counteract the AI going more aggressive can just invite pressure.

However, this is something I often can't decide upon myself, do I, a) become less risky so lower mentality, retain possession, change team shape to try and keep the ball and prevent the opposition having it but potentially get caught out by overplaying in dangerous areas; or b) avoid overplaying and try to take advantage of the opposition overcommitong themselves by using pass into space, higher tempo and more direct passing? 

Of course it's not a binary decision and but it's worth considering are you conceding because the opposition have thrown the kitchen sink at you or are you conceding because you've left yourselves short at the back? It's worth looking over the games you've lost in the analysis tab and looking for patterns.

I like the 'if it isn't broke then don't fix' approach and have used so far, but my nerves can't take it!

i generally play counter against the big teams, so maybe changing late on to defensive or neutral will help. If it stop everyone charging forward and leaving me short then all the better. Need to analyse how I conceded but it's hard to see through all the tears...

[Overmars]

I love the pass into space shout for these moments. Many opponents will push hard with some aggressive 4-2-4 or 3-4-X-X formation, and they will be wide open for the typical pass into space counter attack. If you have fast forwards and midfielders, this becomes even more effective. I won't do this so much against deep formations (4-1-4-1 for example).

I used to play defensive, close down less, and more disciplined, but this often invited too much pressure and let my opponents dictate whether or not they could score. I'd rather keep some offensive impetus and try to get that insurance goal.

[puffascruffowitz]

In FM 16 I had good success with shutting everything down - going on contain, play safer, pull my AML/AMR back to ML/MR, defensive forward. I had a couple slip ups and conceded a goal late since doing that invites so much pressure, but by and large it worked. That very well could just be coincidental though.

This year I've just been leaving it on what was working for the whole game and have had good results holding on to leads. Not sure what made me start leaving it as is.

[sporadicsmiles]

Watch what they other team actually do and how they are making more chances, and then try to counter is specifically as needed. In particular you probably want to be compact as possible in order to just get bodies in the way. 

However, I want to focus on the other side of things. The best way to protect a lead is not just by defending, but by having an effective and dangerous outlet which can either worry the opposition into backing off a bit, or even nick another goal. For example, I play with a 41221 formations, using an IF(A) on the left hand side and tend to play relatively patient football with fluid settings. When I want to protect a lead, or am playing against a team who are doing well, I will often switch to an IF(S) with gets further forward (better defending, do not lose so much in attack) and go to structured shape. 

This helps in two ways. Changing from attack to support duty drops players in deeper, and allows them to defend better. Structured not only increases the space between my lines, it changes the way that players join transitions. Less players will attack, for example, when we win the ball. Unless they can counter. I will also have a forward and advances players on the wings who will get forward quickly when we win the ball by default. If I couple this to going more direct (do not distribute ball to defenders, not to play out of defence) I now have a counter threat, especially if the other team is committing men forward. This worked for me perfectly in an away win to a team in the league above in the cup. At 1-1 they went attacking, and I ended up winning 3-1 after scoring two counter goals.

The point I guess I want to make is that you should not only think about how to protect a lead in terms of defence only. This will result in you being under siege. Do not neglect the attacking side of things. There is no safer way to protect a lead than to make it bigger!

[Godfarmer]

I'll try a few things to solve my issue. I'm already really defensive and to go slightly more free and attacking seems counter intuitive, but I was wrong about my initial tactics before  

Major problem is is that if I'm in this position again it'll be hard to take a gamble and try something new - got to spend money to make money though, will try things one at a time and report

[Godfarmer]

Ok so sample size of one game but success. Was 2-0 up at 70 mins, gave away a penalty and while it was being taken I decided to change tactics to try to kill the game. They missed but still kept it this way. 

So with 20 minutes to go I put be more disciplined and pass into space, then with 10 to go I took a striker off and filled the mid with 5

We won 2-0 and after the changes there was only 4 highlights when watching extended.

as I say it is only one game and they were the bottom team in the league (Swansea) but I'm only 17th so it's comparable. Good progress either way  

[Godfarmer]

Same theory tested against Everton, we were using 442. We took the lead on 47 minutes and they pushed Barkley forward into a 4231 - something which cost me last time

At 70 mins I dropped an anchor man in to mark Barkley (who finished on 5.8) and again 80 was discipline and pass to space

again this didn't cause many extended highlights, which is my aim and even in those I had more chances to score. Like Swansea though, Everton are languishing in the bottom half so certainly not a go to formula for every match but looking positive so far

 

interested to know of anyone who plays attacking or pressing usually, how do they switch it up to protect the lead?

[MattP100]

I play as Southampton. We are fluid, control, play out from defense and pass into space - so fairly attacking.

If I need to close down a game I start by removing pass into space and add retain possession. I might switch to standard, counter usually invites too much pressure (unless I'm already getting done for possession...). If I'm 2 goals up I might go to contain - but usually only for the last 10 mins. The other trick is to change my my WBa to FBd (or fb s)/

 

[maanz79]

@Godfarmer: I played 442 (my fav tactics) on my man utd save. usually at home, I would stick with my 442 attacking with high pressing. and I would change my 2nd tactic (usually after 60mins of play) which is still 442 against big clubs but on defensive contain to protect my lead. what I would do is substitute players with below 6.9 ratings and conditions below 70%, usually my mids or defense. that will be 1 of the key factors that would strengthen the areas in order to see the game out. if playing away, same mentality applies, but if against big clubs (away), i will start off with 442 defensive contain. because it will be very difficult to have 442 to win away games against big clubs.

[Cougar2010]

I feel as though I do as well as anyone at closing a game out and I don't seem to draw/lose many from a winning position.

 

Rule #1: Recognise when you need to make changes.

I play on comprehensive highlights and I generally judge from which team is getting most of the attacking highlights and who has control of possession.  If the highlights are in our favour and we have most of the possession then there is little need to change.  If the opposition have possession but its not in a dangerous area then thats fine as well.  If we are under pressure at the back then thats the time to make changes.

 

Rule #2: What changes do you make.

This is no different to any other time in the match.  You have to balance the risk between holding your shape and chasing the ball.  You can go narrower/deeper & hold your shape forcing the opposition to play through you and hopefully limit them to long shots and less than ideal chances.  Alternatively you can push up and pressure them on the ball but that leaves gaps at the back to exploit.  In possession you can try to play keep ball but that carries risk if you lose the ball at the back or you boot it forwards and give your attacking players something to chase.

 

Rule #3: There is no right answer.

Every situation is individual to your team, your players, the opposition & whats happening on the pitch.  What works in one match might not work in the next and there is always the chanceof bad luck along the way.  Just last night my team controlled a match for 80 mins not giving the opposition a sniff of a goal.  We created 2 clear & 2 half chances scoring one goal then in the final few minutes the opposition equalised from 30 yards with a rocket shot.  It happens but its only an issue if it happens to your team a lot.

[HullCity1904]

Teams may overcommit players in the last ten minutes so doing nothing may not be the best idea. I would sit narrower and a bit deeper, slow it down a tad and have more support duties.  The important thing is to have an outlet so I'd have an attacker as a defensive forward and if you use two then complete forward support so he will attempt to score but positionallyhe will be better placed to take the ball away from danger.

[Godfarmer]

The most common thing i see is the opponent changing from 4123 to 4231 and pushing a CAM up. This I don't mind, and can adjust my formation to kill it. 

Only when there's no visible change do I struggle. Can see them attacking more but it's coming from everywhere. 

So far, if it's a team I can compete with, playing slightly more controlled or disciplined is working  

holding a 0-0 or narrow lead against a much superior team I am still having difficulty though

finding a way to keep out every attack when I'm set up this way already is difficult and eventually they find a way in

[Rashidi]

On 19/11/2016 at 01:13, sporadicsmiles said:

Watch what they other team actually do and how they are making more chances, and then try to counter is specifically as needed. In particular you probably want to be compact as possible in order to just get bodies in the way. 

However, I want to focus on the other side of things. The best way to protect a lead is not just by defending, but by having an effective and dangerous outlet which can either worry the opposition into backing off a bit, or even nick another goal. For example, I play with a 41221 formations, using an IF(A) on the left hand side and tend to play relatively patient football with fluid settings. When I want to protect a lead, or am playing against a team who are doing well, I will often switch to an IF(S) with gets further forward (better defending, do not lose so much in attack) and go to structured shape. 

This helps in two ways. Changing from attack to support duty drops players in deeper, and allows them to defend better. Structured not only increases the space between my lines, it changes the way that players join transitions. Less players will attack, for example, when we win the ball. Unless they can counter. I will also have a forward and advances players on the wings who will get forward quickly when we win the ball by default. If I couple this to going more direct (do not distribute ball to defenders, not to play out of defence) I now have a counter threat, especially if the other team is committing men forward. This worked for me perfectly in an away win to a team in the league above in the cup. At 1-1 they went attacking, and I ended up winning 3-1 after scoring two counter goals.

The point I guess I want to make is that you should not only think about how to protect a lead in terms of defence only. This will result in you being under siege. Do not neglect the attacking side of things. There is no safer way to protect a lead than to make it bigger!

This is the best answer I have read. Let me use a game I played during the beta to illustrate.

I was managing Barca and it was the El Classico. Deciding I wanted to push the AI into unpredictable territory, I opted to use a ludicrous system with only 1 central defender. We started the game on Attacking/fluid with a system that was well balanced to exploit space but hopelessly vulnerable. Real started Standard Flexible.

We took a 3 goal lead inside the first half. And then I decided to go defensive structured. Opting to sit back I wanted to see what the Ai would do. It went Attacking/Fluid and changed its formation. We were pinned back in our own half as the AI swarmed forward. 

Since our defensive line was default we were also closer to our own penalty area. They scored 3 goals and were level. 

Then the AI went standard flexible and we went Attacking/Structured. The game turned on its head as we went looking for the winner which we found eventually.

The game has been designed around several elements.

1. When your rep is lower than the other teams rep or you are equal, the AI will almost always look for a winner if the scores are tied and they are at home.  The same applies to cup competitions.

2. The AI will almost always adapt, this it will do by changing mentality and shape, along with some role/duty changes.

3. We will almost always be told that the AI is going on the front foot, there is an ingame widget that will tell you it's Attacking mentality. If it does not state anything then the AI is most likely on either Standard or Control.

If we understand this will always happen then there are things we can do.

1. Use Mentality/Shape and defensive line changes optimally.

To do this you need to observe your defensive line, if it's too deep either adjust your mentality and raise it or increase the dline.

Most people find it hard to observe their own transitions. Just look at your support players on higher shape settings. These are your transition pivots. What you want to ensure is that you have chosen the right kind of players. If a player is on support duty he absolutely must have stamina workrate and teamwork. For players expected to play key roles during the attacking transition they need to have good OTB and decisions. And then you start looking at other players and roles to ensure you have chosen wisely.

Dont look at the ball during transitions just look at the support players and observe their movement. Failure to take part in a transition is usually down to their attributes, ppms or PIs you have selected.

2. Opposition Instructions 

These can be useful for targeting players when you want to close down a match. Choosing the right ones depends on what formation you are using and what formation the AI is using. 

For example, If an opposition winger has low match condition you can tackle in hard so his decision attributes influence him not to go for the risky move of attacking your flanks.

You can also funnel AI attacks to areas of the pitch you control.  If you are playing a stacked Defense you can set "Wrong Foot" on the AI flank players so that they are forced to cut inside where you may have the advantage.

3. Using TIs.

Some TIs encourage your team to become tighter. The narrower shout reduces wide play. Retain possession stops through balls and keeps passing short. 

If you have given good thought to your support players this is where you can make it even harder for the AI:

When you sit back you encourage the AI to come at you. And if are on fluid you run the risk of seeing balls over the top.

If you were to switch to a structured or rigid shape you will create more space for your players, but this needs to be managed well. 

When you go structured your transitions depend on fewer players, furthermore the attacking duty players will most likely be forced to go it alone. This is where you need to decide who takes to the field. Do you want pacey wingers to get behind the AI defensive line and zing crosses in? Then you need to have players with acceleration dribbling and crossing on the flanks. You will also need good players in the box who can meet the crosses.

If your team doesn't have such players in abundance then you can choose to Work Ball Into Box. This will encourage those wingers to look for the pass. For  this to work well they will now need attributes too that allow them to hold the ball up or pass the ball under pressure.

In the last two years SI have been working hard to create an AI that adapts well. I can safely say that if you don't have the same skill set you will struggle. In fact there are threads on the forum from many posters that illustrates this point very clearly. These are all players who struggle to make ingame changes. Once you learn how to, FM17 will become monumentally easy

 

 

 

[MHovel]

On 11/18/2016 at 19:13, sporadicsmiles said:

Watch what they other team actually do and how they are making more chances, and then try to counter is specifically as needed. In particular you probably want to be compact as possible in order to just get bodies in the way. 

However, I want to focus on the other side of things. The best way to protect a lead is not just by defending, but by having an effective and dangerous outlet which can either worry the opposition into backing off a bit, or even nick another goal. For example, I play with a 41221 formations, using an IF(A) on the left hand side and tend to play relatively patient football with fluid settings. When I want to protect a lead, or am playing against a team who are doing well, I will often switch to an IF(S) with gets further forward (better defending, do not lose so much in attack) and go to structured shape. 

This helps in two ways. Changing from attack to support duty drops players in deeper, and allows them to defend better. Structured not only increases the space between my lines, it changes the way that players join transitions. Less players will attack, for example, when we win the ball. Unless they can counter. I will also have a forward and advances players on the wings who will get forward quickly when we win the ball by default. If I couple this to going more direct (do not distribute ball to defenders, not to play out of defence) I now have a counter threat, especially if the other team is committing men forward. This worked for me perfectly in an away win to a team in the league above in the cup. At 1-1 they went attacking, and I ended up winning 3-1 after scoring two counter goals.

The point I guess I want to make is that you should not only think about how to protect a lead in terms of defence only. This will result in you being under siege. Do not neglect the attacking side of things. There is no safer way to protect a lead than to make it bigger!

what about the roles combinations?

[MHovel]

2 hours ago, MHovel said:

what about the roles combinations?

and i want to add a question to this question.

If switching the IF (A) to a (s), and adding the 'get forward' PI's, then, what is the point of taking an IF (a) from the 1st place?

from what I understand with that comment, it's better to take the IF(s) and make him work like (A) with a get forward PI (on structured shape if i want him to be involved in the defend duties)?

and then my question about the roles combinations, what if i had a full back on support, and my IF (a) duty?

if i'm being pressured by the opposition and i have my full back on the left side on (s) and my IF (a) in a structured shape, and i want the IF to help on defensively, I should the IF role to support and give him the "get forward",

 but what about the full back? should i give him the attack duty? or i will stick him with support? (i don't use any TI's for my full backs).

I mean 2 players in the same side with support duty, i will lack of penetration and will invite more pressure, no?

[superdave]

I'm not sure WHY it works, but when I feel like my team is inferior, if I get a lead, I switch to "work ball into box."  It seems to help.  It definitely helps skew the highlights more my way than without that instruction.

I play 15-16, not 16-17, in case that matters.