that player happiness problem

[cederic]

So on my 7th save in FM17 and finally starting to get to grips with the tactics side of things. 8 wins and 2 draws in my first 11 matches, six points clear in the premier league, rotating the squad to cover for injuries and everybody that comes in performs well.

Then in a 2-3 week period 7 different players complain about their lack of first team football. The whole squad loses morale and I stop winning. Three draws in a row.

It's ludicrous. It's annoying. It doesn't help when I lose patience with the terrible morale implementation and just decline to talk to a player, causing a delegation from the squad to tell me how unfair I am - despite a larger number of players agreeing with me that this is silly.

And then a player tells me that they aren't getting enough first team football. This player has started every single match for which they've been fully fit, and come on as sub in three matches when they've passed a fitness test but have restricted playing time. The game doesn't give me a "Don't be so blinking stupid" option.

So the whole morale system is entirely ruining my enjoyment of the game.

 

Anybody have any suggestions on how I can eliminate this part of the game so that I can enjoy the good things in FM17? Do I just have to download a save game editor and change my whole squad to have a 'Professionalism' stat of 20? I have a learning disability that means I struggle with people matters in real life, I really don't want to have to put up with this in a computer game, especially when it just lacks the tools that would let me deal with it.

 

[keithw44]

I can't stand whinging players in fm, so much so that I've taken a dislike to some of them irl as well.  Because of not getting many injuries I've reduced the squad size to 18, if needed I call on youth players to fill in. 

[mrtrwsmiff]

3 hours ago, cederic said:

It doesn't help when I lose patience with the terrible morale implementation and just decline to talk to a player, causing a delegation from the squad to tell me how unfair I am - despite a larger number of players agreeing with me that this is silly.

Anybody have any suggestions on how I can eliminate this part of the game so that I can enjoy the good things in FM17? Do I just have to download a save game editor and change my whole squad to have a 'Professionalism' stat of 20? I have a learning disability that means I struggle with people matters in real life, I really don't want to have to put up with this in a computer game, especially when it just lacks the tools that would let me deal with it.

 

Firstly you're right, that doesn't help at all and merely increases the damning effect it can have on morale.  You are the tool that deals with it, learning difficulty or not.  Ignoring it doesn't make it go away so face your fears, show the idiots who's boss and if your right back whinges again for a senseless reason, give him a slap and transfer the precious little princess.  Squad management is every bit as important in football as tactics, formations, set pieces.  A happy work force is a productive work force.  Waste no time on those sabotaging from within.  No one is ever irreplaceable.

Alternatively for future reference, pay closer attention to the stats you give yourself as manager at the start of the game.

[cederic]

3 hours ago, mrtrwsmiff said:

You are the tool that deals with it

 

There lies the problem. I don't deal with it. I don't know how. ****, I don't know how in real life, let alone in a game with obscure rules and constrained choices.

This would be why I'm trying to just avoid that whole aspect of the escapist fantasy world that lets me forget my real issues.

[moyesout]

check their status within the team and set it accordingly..  from my own experience to have a player as hot prospect- backup to rotation will rarely complain and certainly if so takes months (unless their a temperamental sod)

obviously if you have them set to first team or key they will expect to be heavily involved.

when you say "when I lose patience with the terrible morale implementation and just decline to talk to a player" - this is important and understandable why a player/ his team mates will react negativity towards you.

 

[pjbork]

1 hour ago, cederic said:

 

There lies the problem. I don't deal with it. I don't know how. ****, I don't know how in real life, let alone in a game with obscure rules and constrained choices.

This would be why I'm trying to just avoid that whole aspect of the escapist fantasy world that lets me forget my real issues.

Do these morale and squad issues exist in FM Touch? I have never played it personally but believe this aspect might not be in that version. Can someone else confirm? Maybe worth trying.

[johnhughthom]

What you have to remember is, you are still a new manager, and the players won't have the same respect for you that they will for others, so taking a tough line can often backfire.

What I would suggest is, every time a player comes to you, sit back and look at it from his point of view. He may be playing in enough games from your angle, he might see it differently, and is that really a bad thing? If you plan on playing him anyway, just tell him he'll play and keep an eye on your promises for the timescale. Also remember that footballers often play through injuries and niggles, just because you consider him unfit doesn't mean he does.

Your Discipline stat will determine how likely players are to come to you with complaints. A high level of discipline and a reputation built long term leads to some very different interactions with your squad than when you start out.

[mbyst48]

They need play in starting 11 not as bench warmer every game

[cederic]

This all makes sense and I do understand why someone sat on the bench is going to get grumpy.

It shouldn't cause the whole squad to stop playing well. I also just don't want to have to deal with touchy-feely stuff. My fifth choice midfielder demanding a transfer to Manchester City because he hasn't played all season is perfectly reasonable and I'll sell him, but don't break my entire game because of this.

Sorry but the whole player happiness side of things is broken and makes no sense, and I don't want to have to put up with it. That's why I'm seeking guidance on how to just stop the game bothering me with this stuff. Three of my first team regulars demanding to be allowed to join Tottenham so they can get Champions League football is frankly asinine, those players have far too much self-respect in real life to do that. Real Madrid or Bayern Munich, sure, but Tottenham? That just has no credibility.

[cederic]

Sorry, I'm being grumpy. I recognise people are trying to help. Dealing with RL so finding it frustrating when an otherwise great game introduces the same stress factors into the game too. Thank you for your patience and sharing some good thoughts.

 

[mrtrwsmiff]

No need to apologise, at least you're trying and that's better than being static fella.

If your fifth choice midfielder demanded a move and you agreed then sold him, it can't break your game.  It's difficult to see without looking at your save however but the player could be popular amongst his team mates for example.

As for the Tottenham business, just look at it as a name because Tottenham in FM is not Tottenham IRL as the reputations of clubs changes much quicker than it would in reality.  

I noted in your suggestion thread that you should attempt to create notes for dealing with players moods, document their reaction a few times and you shall soon get into the habit of knowing which buttons to press.

With regards to your personal challenges, stick at it.  Only ever a PM away if you feel the need to vent.  I work in mental health and your first post in here suggests autism or something similar.  Let's be proactive bossman.  

[Haiku]

Initially I had the same frustration, but now I have another approach. Just spend your entire budget on eleven top players, and only buy cheap backups. Use your eleven as much as you can, and the backups only when necessary. When someone comes to you complaining, tell that you will send him on loan. If he agrees, then just set his loan status to available and reject every loan offer you receive for him. The player usually won't complain. As long as he is loan listed, he will take your promise as being fulfilled. If he doesn't want to be loaned out, then promise him that you will get rid of him and do just that at the earliest opportunity. Remember, nobody is bigger than the club, especially backups. Oh and those players for the future demanding more football you can't provide, better send them on loan until they become good enough to fit into your best eleven.

Another precious advice: If you are going to follow my approach, then search for players with high natural fitness and low injury proneness for your starting eleven.

[sporadicsmiles]

There are two ways to deal with players complaining about not playing enough: play them, or sell them. I shall explan.

I tend to keep a relatively large squad, and rotate a lot. That means I can play up to 30 players in a given season (including kids who I play in cup matches, or else want to give game time to). This means I rarely have people complaining about lack of game time. It also means I keep players fitter towards the end of the season, which is great for tough runs. However, it also means I do not have a fixed 11 which can lead to disjointed performances if I rotate too much.

When I do this, if I get a player who wants to play more, and I am unwilling to let him I do one of two things. I will look to sell him (if he is not happy with rotation, and I am not happy to play him more he probably is not good enough), or if he is a young talent I want to keep around I will look to get him a loan. 

If you are playing with a more fixed starting 11, with only a few rotation players, then it is probably best to sell or loan a player unhappy with game time (depending on if you see them being a first team player at a later date). If you do not play them, they are not good enough to play for you (clearly). It is better to have versatile backups who are not super talented but can do the job, or else use your young players. 

I tend to rotate with larger teams (I can buy more quality and afford to pay them) and have a more fixed team when playing as a smaller team. 

There are a few tricks for when players complain you can use when talking to them. The best is if you can say "I would play you, but XXXX is in such good form I cannot drop him" then do. The player will almost always accept that, saying something like "As long as there is a reason you are not playing me, I understand". That is my go-to response, even if it is a lie!

 

[Hilly27]

 

1 hour ago, sporadicsmiles said:

There are a few tricks for when players complain you can use when talking to them. The best is if you can say "I would play you, but XXXX is in such good form I cannot drop him" then do. The player will almost always accept that, saying something like "As long as there is a reason you are not playing me, I understand". That is my go-to response, even if it is a lie!

 

Yes, but you'll only get one go at using that get out. When he comes back to you, as he inevitably will, you won't have that option. You'll have to promise him more football, sell or loan him, and even then, unless you promise to play him, he'll still put up a fight. That's where it's all somewhat illogical. If a player is performing better than your whinger on the first occasion, then it's likely he still is on the next occasion, but that option isn't available, but it should be. I see no reason why there is an escalator in these situations. I have young rotation players, who are playing every Europa League game, every cup game and one in four league games. Yet they are still whinging. Players of 18-19yrs old IRL would be over the moon to playing that much first team football.

 

[HUNT3R]

Manager rep and attributes will matter here too. 

[Guest]

@HUNT3R: But player happiness is almost certainly bugged, too, at least to some extent.

 

I am the new Liverpool manager. Wijnaldum is a new signing at the club. I have played 13 or 14 competitive matches. Wijnaldum is a "rotation" player. He has started 6 of those 13/14 games and come on as a sub in three others. After 8 or 9 games, he complained about his lack of first team options, although he had played half of my games, more than I think would have been reasonable for him to expect with that status. After 11 or 12 games, he said he wanted to leave because he's "never going to make it at the club".

 

I agree that there are players whose psychological resilience isn't that great, but if you've made it to the top, this shouldn't happen at a new club after less than 15 games, especially if you've played half of them (without any problems in the performance itself).

[HUNT3R]

Just now, xzar_monty said:

@HUNT3R: But player happiness is almost certainly bugged, too, at least to some extent.

 

I am the new Liverpool manager. Wijnaldum is a new signing at the club. I have played 13 or 14 competitive matches. Wijnaldum is a "rotation" player. He has started 6 of those 13/14 games and come on as a sub in three others. After 8 or 9 games, he complained about his lack of first team options, although he had played half of my games, more than I think would have been reasonable for him to expect with that status. After 11 or 12 games, he said he wanted to leave because he's "never going to make it at the club".

 

I agree that there are players whose psychological resilience isn't that great, but if you've made it to the top, this shouldn't happen at a new club after less than 15 games, especially if you've played half of them (without any problems in the performance itself).

People also need to use some sort of logic. 6 of 13 or 14 is below 50%. That is grounds for a complaint, surely?
 

Also, if he believes he won't make it, he doesn't think he's good enough to be starting anyway, so what's the issue?

[cederic]

15 hours ago, mrtrwsmiff said:

I noted in your suggestion thread that you should attempt to create notes for dealing with players moods, document their reaction a few times and you shall soon get into the habit of knowing which buttons to press.

 

Sadly I fear the final post in that thread shows how little SI care about this particular facet of the game. Never mind, thank you all anyway.

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

People also need to use some sort of logic. 6 of 13 or 14 is below 50%. That is grounds for a complaint, surely?
 

Also, if he believes he won't make it, he doesn't think he's good enough to be starting anyway, so what's the issue?

I think the number of players at top Premiership clubs that would conclude they're "not going to make it" after 13 or 14 games - of which they'd started 6 and come off the bench 3 times - can be counted on the fingers of one hand.

A little below 50% across a handful of games is ground for a newly-signed squad rotation player to ask what improvement they needed to show to start a few more games or drop a quiet hint that they'd hope their form was enough to see even more regular starts for the rest of the season, not issuing an ultimatum or reaching the ludicrous conclusion they're not good enough. Certainly not a player with solid personality attributes across the board like Wijnaldum.

[HUNT3R]

9 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Certainly not a player with solid personality attributes across the board like Wijnaldum.

And if he has that good a personality, he'd drop the issue if you tell him he should keep quiet - if you are correct. In this case he is a newly signed rotation player playing less than half the games. Also, how many of the last 5 or so did he start? If he's seeing a decline in very recent starts, that would also be cause for complaining.

[HUNT3R]

10 hours ago, cederic said:

Sadly I fear the final post in that thread shows how little SI care about this particular facet of the game. Never mind, thank you all anyway.

I'm not SI. I'm pointing out that there are reasons for complaints and in the Wijnaldum example, the player was right to complain, judging by the information given.

If you actually have a genuine issue with a complaint that seems buggy, upload your save to the FTP from before the complaint so that SI can re-produce it and report it in the bugs forum for SI to review.

[Guest]

@HUNT3R: In my view, the player has absolutely no reason or right to complain. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I suppose. He's new, he's a rotation player, he's played pretty much half the games. There is NO reason to complain about playing time and even less reason to worry that he's not going to make it. I would accept both of these complaints somewhere around February or the first reason, but not in October.

 

The squad status system has also changed markedly since earlier times. Rotation players complain much much more. In a way, that's fine, but then again, you're given impossible jobs. For instance, the amount of Key, First Team and Rotation players (combined) is high. There are no European games during the first season. In very simple terms, there are not enough matches to fit everybody on the pitch. I can easily accept the fact that it'll make some people unhappy (IRL Sturridge probably is very much so), but the game takes it too far.

[HUNT3R]

24 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

@HUNT3R: In my view, the player has absolutely no reason or right to complain. We'll have to agree to disagree on this, I suppose. He's new, he's a rotation player, he's played pretty much half the games. There is NO reason to complain about playing time and even less reason to worry that he's not going to make it. I would accept both of these complaints somewhere around February or the first reason, but not in October.

 

The squad status system has also changed markedly since earlier times. Rotation players complain much much more. In a way, that's fine, but then again, you're given impossible jobs. For instance, the amount of Key, First Team and Rotation players (combined) is high. There are no European games during the first season. In very simple terms, there are not enough matches to fit everybody on the pitch. I can easily accept the fact that it'll make some people unhappy (IRL Sturridge probably is very much so), but the game takes it too far.

It's just how it is. He might be new, but he was brought in as a Rotation player. Rotation players will expect to be part of a rotation system and that means half the games. He hasn't played half the games, so he's right to question you.

I also asked what his involvement in the last 5 or 6 games was, because that'll also be a cause for complaint if (for example) he did start 50-60% of games and then suddenly only 1 or 2 of the last 5/6.

Also, the 14 games couldn't all have been league games, so which games did he start in? League games are a lot more important than League Cup or similar games, so you have a much better chance of keeping him happy by starting him in 50% of league games.

Lastly, as I said, your manager rep and attributes will matter too. People will complain less and also accept your judgement more.

[Guest]

So, Liverpool has two goalkeepers in the first team, one of whom is a First Teamer and one of whom is a Rotation player. Am I right to infer that it is impossible to keep them happy, because their combined expectation is to play approximately 135% of the games? (85% for First Team, 50% for Rotation.)

 

The rotation expectation of 50% is very unrealistic, in my opinion. And it has certainly changed since previous versions. Basically, what you should have is 11 First Teamers (2 or 3 of whom could be Key Players), NO Rotation players at all, and then Backups. I suppose the starting point (i.e. the team you're given) at most clubs is very different.

[HUNT3R]

6 minutes ago, xzar_monty said:

So, Liverpool has two goalkeepers in the first team, one of whom is a First Teamer and one of whom is a Rotation player. Am I right to infer that it is impossible to keep them happy, because their combined expectation is to play approximately 135% of the games? (85% for First Team, 50% for Rotation.)

 

The rotation expectation of 50% is very unrealistic, in my opinion. And it has certainly changed since previous versions. Basically, what you should have is 11 First Teamers (2 or 3 of whom could be Key Players), NO Rotation players at all, and then Backups. I suppose the starting point (i.e. the team you're given) at most clubs is very different.

It's going to be difficult keeping both happy, yes. Probably not impossible though. Not sure where you got 85% from, because that's too high, but yes, if a Rotation player needs about 50%, a First Team player will need more.

I'd argue that very few managers would have 11 First Team/Key players.

[Guest]

Well, where did you get the 50% for Rotation from? Are these percentages explicitly stated somewhere?

 

When the game begins, Liverpool has 3 Key players, 10 First teamers and 5 Rotation players. That's not very manageable, given the lack of European games. The game is not playing by its own rules, or then Klopp is supposed to have been a fool, which he is not.

[HUNT3R]

You haven't answered the other questions because there may be more to it than just a simple "he hasn't started half the games".

And yes, Klopp will have his hands full and so will a few other managers too. These aren't isolated cases, players complaining because they want to play.

[Guest]

I notice that you also didn't answer my question about the percentages.

 

The reason I didn't answer is that I'm on a break from the game until the next patch, so I'm not going to check things out for now. There's too much that's unappealing in the game right now, in the match engine and otherwise. When the new patch comes out, I will try that for a bit and see how it goes. If it doesn't, I'm perfectly willing to ditch the game for good.

 

I came back to this version after a few years' break; the last one I played was FM2014. One of the surprises was how little has changed: even the Post-match conference questions are the same.

[HUNT3R]

So then the discussion about that situation is going nowhere, because it's important to look at the big picture.

[Guest]

I agree, it's not going to, before the patch.

 

What about the percentages?

[HUNT3R]

Use simple logic. Rotation players need a rotation system... players in and out... so 50% is about right. Key players will be high, 85-90% I'm sure, so First Team will be somewhere in between.

As I keep saying though, it's not just a simple case of looking at the percentages only.

[Guest]

Your logic is not as simple as you imply, if you have actually studied logic to any degree. For instance, in a hypothetical situation, we can have a group of people on steady rotation so that each of them is involved in 20% of the cases. Or 30% the cases. Or even, in an extreme case, 1% of the cases. All of these perfectly fulfill the criteria of what "rotation" means. The problem with the game is that the players have a certain expectation of what rotation means, and I'm not sure if it's reasonable. As a football manager, I would initially assume that a player on a Rotation status should expect to play maybe 35% of the games, and certainly not half of them.

 

My current main question, however, concerns the fact whether the meaning of rotation is actually explained anywhere in the game (according to how the players in the game perceive it), and I'm beginning to suspect that it is not.

[HUNT3R]

It's not going to be possible for the game to explicitly state 50% because it depends on other factors too.

[Guest]

Yes, that much is obvious. But it could be easily stated as a baseline.

 

"A rotation player will expect to be involved X% of your matches, but this number will be heavily dependent on his professionalism and other attributes."

 

I would be perfectly happy with that, with the X stated out. From what I have seen, the expectation for a player on Rotation status is much too high.

[HUNT3R]

You can always add it as a feature request, but that's a little too much hand-holding IMO.

What do you understand a squad rotation system does then? Because normally, there's a heavy rotation of players each game. In this case, it's 1 player who is given that status, so he'll be expecting heavy rotation. Playing 20 or 30% isn't heavy rotation at all and it's not unreasonable for him to feel a little left out.

[Guest]

Well, there's a problem here in the sense that without European games, Liverpool don't have that many matches, and there are too many players in the squad set to First Teamers. So, there's going to be plenty of difficulties. I'm perfectly willing to accept that. In my view, however, he started to complain way too early. Also, given that he almost immediately afterwards wanted to leave "because he's not going to make it", I felt that there's some logic lacking in how he behaves. His mental stats are fine, I believe, so I'm not sure where this is coming from.

[keithw44]

In my Man Utd squad I have 2 strikers one a key player the other a first teamer, we play one up front so I rotate them every game to keep them both in excellent condition.  I have never had a complaint from either in the last 2 seasons.  

On the other hand I have Luke Shaw who came to me 3 days before the champions cup final saying he wanted to leave for a new challenge, this was to be his first cc final, this would never happen irl.

The following season LS came to me again 3 days before the cc final saying he wanted to leave because of a lack of games, he was one of my top players for number of appearances all season,  imo this would never happen irl either.

I don't think player status and %'s are as important as players hidden mental attributes.

Conclusion, bye bye Luke.

 

 

 

[HUNT3R]

Without knowing all the details around it, it's not going to be possible to tell you anything more than what's been said already.

As also said already, if you believe you have something that's buggy, upload your save to the FTP and report it in the bugs forum also stating what exactly the issue is. SI can then re-produce your exact situation, review your post and look under the hood at the same time to see if there is an issue.

[HUNT3R]

5 minutes ago, keithw44 said:

In my Man Utd squad I have 2 strikers one a key player the other a first teamer, we play one up front so I rotate them every game to keep them both in excellent condition.  I have never had a complaint from either in the last 2 seasons.

 

 

If anything, that sounds like a problem. The first teamer, maybe is okay, but a Key Player shouldn't be happy at only getting half the games. Is he the one getting CL games mostly? Because they are deemed more important than other games. Still, it doesn't sound right. He's not very "Key" to the team if he doesn't start half the games!

[keithw44]

Can you check appearance stats from previous seasons anywhere?

[Guest]

@HUNT3R: Well, to balance the Wijnaldum problem, I also have James Milner in my team. He's a Key Player (certainly not set by me!). He's also played in approximately half the games. He doesn't complain.

[HUNT3R]

Just now, xzar_monty said:

@HUNT3R: Well, to balance the Wijnaldum problem, I also have James Milner in my team. He's a Key Player (certainly not set by me!). He's also played in approximately half the games. He doesn't complain.

With the Milner example, the same as what I said to keithw44 will apply. That sounds like a bug. It may have something to do with Milner being extremely professional or low controversy or both, but that should (IMO!) account for a slight discrepancy in games played, not this much!

[Guest]

On the basis of these two examples, squad status doesn't actually matter one bit, professionalism does. Or something. In any case, it's extremely difficult for the player to know what's going on.

[keithw44]

The key player last season played in the league 13, cups 7, champion league 10 = 30 in total

The first teamer played in the league 20, cups 3, champions league 5 = 28 in total

The key player in the season before last played in the league 17, cups 5, champions cup 6 = 28 in total

The first teamer played in the league 17, cups 7, champions league 6 = 30 in total

Last season the first teamer did say to me, on one occasion, that he needed more games, I replied that there was still a lot of football to be played, he said sorry for bothering you.

The key player has a professional personality, the first teamer is fairly determined.

A bug? 

[HUNT3R]

17 minutes ago, keithw44 said:

The key player last season played in the league 13, cups 7, champion league 10 = 30 in total

The first teamer played in the league 20, cups 3, champions league 5 = 28 in total

The key player in the season before last played in the league 17, cups 5, champions cup 6 = 28 in total

The first teamer played in the league 17, cups 7, champions league 6 = 30 in total

Last season the first teamer did say to me, on one occasion, that he needed more games, I replied that there was still a lot of football to be played, he said sorry for bothering you.

The key player has a professional personality, the first teamer is fairly determined.

A bug? 

Hard to say, but the first teamer is probably okay, but borderline so.

IMO, the Key Player should have been complaining. It's possibly because of the many champions league games with their weighting (and his personality) affects it though, but 2 seasons ago should have been a definite issue. If you upload a save, SI should be able to check why he is satisfied with the amount of games he is getting.

[keithw44]

How do you upload a save?

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, keithw44 said:

How do you upload a save?

Have a look in the bugs forum. There are pinned threads in each section explaining how it all works.

[Neil Brock]

Yeah please raise the issue here - https://community.sigames.com/forum/518-other-gameplay-issues/

And to upload the save game, FTP details are here - https://community.sigames.com/topic/381320-ftp-details/

Thanks. 

[keithw44]

I'm playing on fm16 also my OS is windows xp.  Should I still raise the issue? 

[HUNT3R]

15 hours ago, keithw44 said:

I'm playing on fm16 also my OS is windows xp.  Should I still raise the issue? 

Ah, didn't realise this was FM16. It's something that may have been fixed already. No need unless it pops up in Fm17.