Open letter to SI: The Realism or Without Arrows

[x42bn6]

basicly all you ask is to be able to cheat. AI can't response to such crazy arrow formation no metter how realistic you think they are. and they are not, you can't ask of your player to play 2 different positions. only to move somewhere.

your only argument is that you could be able to do that IRE. and you're probably right (but i wouldn't like you as my coach ). but this is computor game reallity not real life reallity. think about it.

you've posted this example 10 times and we answered 30 times that we'll still be able to play winger as some sort of striker or MC as winger....

please read what people say and try to imagine it. you're just repeating yourself.

Er, no.

Darren Fletcher runs down the right even when he's playing in midfield. He makes little runs and sometimes even ends up doing deep crosses.

Massimo Ambrosini goes defensive on the left when the rest of his team attacks.

Gabriel Agbonlahor sometimes drifts very wide to pick up the ball when he's on his own - including the right flank.

Wayne Rooney drops into DM C or deeper when defending. Carlos Tévez drops into M C.

Mark Noble makes bombing runs forward from M C to ST when they play 4-5-1 (see the England Under-21s against Wales Under-21s yesterday).

It's not cheating. There are legitimate uses of arrows. All those are legitimate instructions in some way.

[Neb]

We need a way of telling positions exactly what we want them to do without having to fiddle with lots of sliders. (unless you wanted to!)

Its the user interface that is the issue, not the match engine. I think many people (including the original poster) confuse the two. The issue is that someone who doesn't know too much about FM but knows football would pick up FM08 and assume the arrows meant runs. to prevent confusion and bad tactics the arrows have come out.

I'd like SI to go a step further and develop the tactics screen to make it easier for someone to 'pick up and play' something that I think has declined over the past 5 years.....

I still want the complexity available if I need it, but I want to be able to click a few players, drag a few arrows, make a few generic choices and get on with playing the game. Definately needs improving

[Neb]

Er, no.

Darren Fletcher runs down the right even when he's playing in midfield. He makes little runs and sometimes even ends up doing deep crosses.

Massimo Ambrosini goes defensive on the left when the rest of his team attacks.

Gabriel Agbonlahor sometimes drifts very wide to pick up the ball when he's on his own - including the right flank.

Wayne Rooney drops into DM C or deeper when defending. Carlos Tévez drops into M C.

Mark Noble makes bombing runs forward from M C to ST when they play 4-5-1 (see the England Under-21s against Wales Under-21s yesterday).

It's not cheating. There are legitimate uses of arrows. All those are legitimate instructions in some way.

How exactly did you make rooney drop into midfield when defending??!

if you used an arrow back, then rooney would just leg it as fast as his stubby little legs would let him to midfield everytime manchester utd got the ball.

Thats why the arrows have been removed. people like you didn't know what the arrows did and are now thinking that they won't be able to live without them.

lets all just wait till the demo comes out!

[bigdunk]

Er, no.

Darren Fletcher runs down the right even when he's playing in midfield. He makes little runs and sometimes even ends up doing deep crosses.

Massimo Ambrosini goes defensive on the left when the rest of his team attacks.

Gabriel Agbonlahor sometimes drifts very wide to pick up the ball when he's on his own - including the right flank.

Wayne Rooney drops into DM C or deeper when defending. Carlos Tévez drops into M C.

Mark Noble makes bombing runs forward from M C to ST when they play 4-5-1 (see the England Under-21s against Wales Under-21s yesterday).

It's not cheating. There are legitimate uses of arrows. All those are legitimate instructions in some way.

And all of those can either still be achieved without the use of arrows, or they couldn't be achived even with arrows.

[Majkee]

Er, no.

Darren Fletcher runs down the right even when he's playing in midfield. He makes little runs and sometimes even ends up doing deep crosses.

Massimo Ambrosini goes defensive on the left when the rest of his team attacks.

Gabriel Agbonlahor sometimes drifts very wide to pick up the ball when he's on his own - including the right flank.

Wayne Rooney drops into DM C or deeper when defending. Carlos Tévez drops into M C.

Mark Noble makes bombing runs forward from M C to ST when they play 4-5-1 (see the England Under-21s against Wales Under-21s yesterday).

It's not cheating. There are legitimate uses of arrows. All those are legitimate instructions in some way.

My opinion: that is their style of play, their PPMs, not arrows chalked on the board by the manager.

Manager told them: "...you <name>, be creative, run to the channels or deep for the ball..."

They have it in their blood, these are their PPMs, not arrows.

May be for width movement some kind of slider like: move to left channel<---stay in your position----> move right channel should help (discussed before in this thread), but generally, Gabby has his PPM in real football - move to the right channel (more often), Carlos has move deep for the ball, Mark Noble has bomb the area with runs etc...

Together linked with creativity, fwd runs, general width etc. it should work without arrows.

Again - we will see.

[gazzamcg]

I don't understand all the bickering ...

If the arrows have been removed to the make the ME better, then why all the fuss ???

All we wan't is the game to progress and be better each version. If it means this and that isn't included for the good of the game, then good riddance.

[Ackter]

Jimbo - I'm probably one of only a handful of people in FML who have had access to the arrowless match engine with all tactical skills unlocked.

I have my complaints (as always ) but the lack of old-style arrows is 100% not one of them.

[Ackter]

Er, no.

Darren Fletcher runs down the right even when he's playing in midfield. He makes little runs and sometimes even ends up doing deep crosses.

Massimo Ambrosini goes defensive on the left when the rest of his team attacks.

Gabriel Agbonlahor sometimes drifts very wide to pick up the ball when he's on his own - including the right flank.

Wayne Rooney drops into DM C or deeper when defending. Carlos Tévez drops into M C.

Mark Noble makes bombing runs forward from M C to ST when they play 4-5-1 (see the England Under-21s against Wales Under-21s yesterday).

It's not cheating. There are legitimate uses of arrows. All those are legitimate instructions in some way.

None of that is what happened when you gave players arrows in FM08 and earlier.

[Wakers]

Er, no.

Darren Fletcher runs down the right even when he's playing in midfield. He makes little runs and sometimes even ends up doing deep crosses.

Massimo Ambrosini goes defensive on the left when the rest of his team attacks.

Gabriel Agbonlahor sometimes drifts very wide to pick up the ball when he's on his own - including the right flank.

Wayne Rooney drops into DM C or deeper when defending. Carlos Tévez drops into M C.

Mark Noble makes bombing runs forward from M C to ST when they play 4-5-1 (see the England Under-21s against Wales Under-21s yesterday).

It's not cheating. There are legitimate uses of arrows. All those are legitimate instructions in some way.

Arrows didn't do any of this. This is why they're gone.

[grokkk]

Left MC: No FWRs, low mentality

Right SC. High CF, right footed, Cross Ball Often, Wide formation

Left FC: No FWRs, low mentality, TB Often

AMC: High mentality, FWRs Often

AMC: Low mentality, FWRS rarely

Focus passing down right flank or have Right SC as TM

how can I ask my right MC in 4-2-2-2 to move on right flang in attack - Not easy but possible, as has been said we need a slider for horizontal movement which will hopefully appear at some stage.

with left MC will go to DMC position when all team go in attack? - Defensive mentality, rarely forward runs.

I want one of my ST go to right flang - Again we need horizontal movement but cross often maybe helps?

other ST go to AMC position - defensive mentality, rarely forward runs.

one of AMC go to FC position - Attacking mentality, often forward runs.

another AMC go to MC position - defensive mentality, rarely forward runs.

all team focus their pass on AMC, who goes to MC, and he usually use direct pass on right flang? - Put him as the playmaker and set his passing to direct passing + focus right flank on passing.

I know the above are not totally concise but you get the basic idea.

What the hell does mentality has to do with the movements of a player?

The mentality of the player is regulated only by his whereabouts on the field, in relation to his position of in other words, where he starts from during an attack. If his forward runs set to rare, he will maintain his position but will not shift down. The arrow just creates an illusion. I have tasted the mentality and forward runs for more than a day in FMLive and I can say for curtain that the player maintains his position.

Forward runs rarely is not equally to runs back,it's just mean that player will run rarely from his current position

wwfan – now we have a chess board on which all the pieces can move only one spot at a time. Now the game have turned from a tactical one to a game of "find a player with the best skills 2this position,and he will do a job" (that's what happens in FML, in my GW, out of top 10 managers, only two of them have a good tactic skills, the rest of the play in default and kick everyone's ass with team instruction and strong players ).

MC with a small mentality will play below the MC with big mentality but always will be there in attacks and on the defense.

Right SC. High CF, right footed, Cross Ball Often, Wide formation

Who told you that I want to play wide? I want to play narrow with short ball passes through the center, but I also want the right forward to shift to the right and cross to the center.

AMC: Low mentality, FWRS rarely

See above. AMC will play below an AMC with high mentality, but not an MC. I want to separate the actions of the team during attack and defense.

What the hell? Apparently, if I, as a coach, want to instruct a player to shift to a flange, I have to make him play with the other leg? And if I want him to move to the flange not for crossing the ball than it makes me no difference which of his legs is stronger?

What does "cheating, to me, it's that we can use strange arrows and AI can't" mean? Why do the options to configure tactics even exist? The human brain has more options then the AI anyway. Lets just all play with default tactics in order to be even with the AI ( its coming to that tactical individuality will be a thing of the past ).

By the way, when you play a shooting game or an RPG, you have the same options as the monsters you kill?

P.S Yes i play FMLive and i saw FM09 beta version

[Ainu]

OMG! Do you see any football matches in real life?!! Player moves without ball from one point to another is about 90% of match time. And now you say, that this simply travel, not part of the game??? I read freate number of books about football theory, and every author after 80's year said - the movement is the basis of the game. Lobanovsky saud, that the movement, ability to change position, ability of forwards to go in defence and play in defending formation when team have no possesion - it is the basis of the win. Nobody can't win without this.

But now we see wwfan, who said, that movemet from one position to another isn't the part of the game! I can't believe...

Stop twisting his words, he's perfectly explained that it's the manner of the movement that's the problem. He's stressed so many times that the new match engine puts an emphasis on dynamic runs and player movement, rather than moving from one position to another through static arrows. But you just won't listen. You're getting a bit disrespectful.

[eaimua]

I started reading the topic but the stringent attitudes on both sides from just the first page soured me on the discussion. I'm just going to drop my 2 cents and bail out *shrug*

Arrows are used in real life. Managers design plays that they'd like the players to follow and use arrows, on their chalkboards, to convey the ideas to the footballers. As I understand it, the option has been taken away but the Matches shown flow better. That's all well and good but all it tells me is that more simulation is going on. I'm the manager and I'd like more control over how to specify my tactics. I wouldn't be keen on a game where all I could choose was "free flowing attacking football" or "park the bus" and then watch a match. It shouldn't be either-or. We should get more control and a better engine.

[Cougar2010]

I started reading the topic but the stringent attitudes on both sides from just the first page soured me on the discussion. I'm just going to drop my 2 cents and bail out *shrug*

Arrows are used in real life. Managers design plays that they'd like the players to follow and use arrows, on their chalkboards, to convey the ideas to the footballers. As I understand it, the option has been taken away but the Matches shown flow better. That's all well and good but all it tells me is that more simulation is going on. I'm the manager and I'd like more control over how to specify my tactics. I wouldn't be keen on a game where all I could choose was "free flowing attacking football" or "park the bus" and then watch a match. It shouldn't be either-or. We should get more control and a better engine.

Arrows in FM never worked like they do in real life and that is the basis of the problem here.

Many users presumed they did (myself included) but ultimately the match engine treats them differently which creates problems and misunderstanding.

shevelevee wants SI to follow the path of changing the arrows so they work the same as RL but ultimately SI has chosen a different route.

SI has chosen to take user arrows off the formation screen only leaving the instruction screens for tactical input, arrows then appear on the formation screen (I think I'm right in presuming) representing the instructions you have given.

People have identified two potential issues with this being:

A) Control of lateral movement &

B) Understanding of what the mentality slider actually does with regards to players dropping into deeper positions.

[C. S.]

First of all, I understand that SI have admitted they have removed arrows because players could exploit the ME, not because they were unrealistic.

And to all those who now strongly defend the lack of arrows (well especially wwfan as a tactical guru iirc): how many of your previous tactics included arrows? Moreover, how often did you actually advocate a certain arrow in your tactic as being a logical thing and not merely an artificial attempt to expoit the ME?

Personally, I agree with everything that simplifies the tactical interface. In fact, the slider system was the main reason for not buying the last version and overall deciding to stop playing FM (if it wasn't for this "revolution" thing I wouldn't even consider playing this game again until the sliders are removed or the tactical GUI radically changed). But trying to persuade people that arrows were unrealistic is ridiculous. In fact it's as ridiculous as not allowing players to be positioned wherever I want on the pitch.

What you now have is basically about 30 positions where you can place your players, and that's about it in terms of positioning. But what's still there is a plethora of sliders that don't make any sense or are too abstract to translate in human language instructions (individual mentalities, I'm looking at you!)

[peter-evo]

Shevelee, most people here will respect your opinion but you shouldn't be so disrespectful about expressing it.

Now, up until this topic started I, like most here, thought arrows determined runs and not two static positions when in and not in posseession of the ball. But when I look at the games with arrows, I see how static and linear the players become when your team is in possesion, it seems like no longer do some of his mental attributes affect what is happening on the pitch.

An example is: my attacking midfielder intercepted a very innacurate pass, my Right sided midfielder had an arrow towards an AMR position. When I saw my AM collect the ball I saw that my RM was in acres of space over on the overside of the pitch and then he cut right inside and basically stood with the opposition CB, thus cutting off his own space. This is the problem with the arrows, the lack of understanding of them and robotic influence they had.

I then replayed the game and this time played without the arrows and what do you know? The players were clever in their movements, they no longer ran statically in the same position, they made decisions, my left winger was smarter off the ball, he would often drop deeper to collect the ball.

Hopefully in the new settings it will be possible to get what we though we were getting with the current arrows.

Thanks for reading

[Ackter]

First of all, I understand that SI have admitted they have removed arrows because players could exploit the ME, not because they were unrealistic.

Same thing - they allowed you to do unrealistic things.

[Ranbir]

If the mentality sliders are replacing this, there needs to be greater feedback on what each point on the slider is truly representing.

What do I know about the different degrees of "normal" of mentality?

[shevelevee]

All you have very goog English, and I can't won this debate. But I can't go away, when there are absolutely lie in this topic - about "new tactic control", crazy phrases about "cheating tactics", about "unrealistic things"... All you, Misters, can't explain me, small stupid russian guy (with vodka in my right hand), how can I ask my players to do realistic things.

Say me, how can I ask my AMC run to Dc position when we have no ball (as Semak in Russia vs Finland today), or ask my Arshavin on right flang to move on FC® position, and Zyryanov, DMC, to move on far post, and ask my Zhirkov, (who is on FL positon in attack and DL position in defence), to move from left flang to center? I see it with my own eyes, and all this is real, and I see that this is Hidding's plan for the game. Can I do something like this in your "super-puper-realistic" match engine? No? If no, what are we talking about now? You can say me - forward runs often, reject crossing, and... what? left-footed Arshavin will move in center - sorry, Arshavin is right footed, please tell me new story about "absolut4ely-realistic-without-arrows-match-engine" and "improved-tactic-control"

[grokkk]

when u'll answer 2shevelevee pls answer me also

What the hell does mentality has to do with the movements of a player?

The mentality of the player is regulated only by his whereabouts on the field, in relation to his position of in other words, where he starts from during an attack. If his forward runs set to rare, he will maintain his position but will not shift down. The arrow just creates an illusion. I have tasted the mentality and forward runs for more than a day in FMLive and I can say for curtain that the player maintains his position.

Forward runs rarely is not equally to runs back,it's just mean that player will run rarely from his current position

MC with a small mentality will play below the MC with big mentality but always will be there in attacks and on the defense.

Who told you that I want to play wide? I want to play narrow with short ball passes through the center, but I also want the right forward to shift to the right and cross to the center.

See above. AMC will play below an AMC with high mentality, but not an MC. I want to separate the actions of the team during attack and defense.

What the hell? Apparently, if I, as a coach, want to instruct a player to shift to a flange, I have to make him play with the other leg? And if I want him to move to the flange not for crossing the ball than it makes me no difference which of his legs is stronger?

What does "cheating, to me, it's that we can use strange arrows and AI can't" mean? Why do the options to configure tactics even exist? The human brain has more options then the AI anyway. Lets just all play with default tactics in order to be even with the AI ( its coming to that tactical individuality will be a thing of the past ).

By the way, when you play a shooting game or an RPG, you have the same options as the monsters you kill?

P.S Yes i play FMLive and i saw FM09 beta version

[Kriss]

If the mentality sliders are replacing this, there needs to be greater feedback on what each point on the slider is truly representing.

What do I know about the different degrees of "normal" of mentality?

This in general was discussed very early in beta and I know it was planned to give an explanation of each slider, possibly using tool tips.

I hope that happens as I'm sure we can expect to see many recruits to FML who don't have an FM grounding and will be even more baffled:)

If not maybe someone like wwfan or Rashidi could find time to do a small resume on each control, I do feel it's a fair request.

It's not as if they do much in their day job:D

[Mitja]

All you have very goog English, and I can't won this debate. But I can't go away, when there are absolutely lie in this topic - about "new tactic control", crazy phrases about "cheating tactics", about "unrealistic things"... All you, Misters, can't explain me, small stupid russian guy (with vodka in my right hand), how can I ask my players to do realistic things.

Say me, how can I ask my AMC run to Dc position when we have no ball (as Semak in Russia vs Finland today), or ask my Arshavin on right flang to move on FC® position, and Zyryanov, DMC, to move on far post, and ask my Zhirkov, (who is on FL positon in attack and DL position in defence), to move from left flang to center? I see it with my own eyes, and all this is real, and I see that this is Hidding's plan for the game. Can I do something like this in your "super-puper-realistic" match engine? No? If no, what are we talking about now? You can say me - forward runs often, reject crossing, and... what? left-footed Arshavin will move in center - sorry, Arshavin is right footed, please tell me new story about "absolut4ely-realistic-without-arrows-match-engine" and "improved-tactic-control"

you said: run, move, move, move...now you're starting to understand it. players run and move to many directions, not just one.

yes arshavin cuts inside, mostly becouse he's right footed playing on left wing (but cutting in is not what you did with arrows, you were just positioning players, nothing else). i hope new ME is going to encourege wingers to move into the box. but again it's about forward runs and mentality, really.

zhirkov goes forward very high up field, like any other attacking minded full back (mentality, forward runs)...it's about movement, not positioning. for instance IRE when ball is in right side of defence deep inside own area, he's holding his position, he's not FL.

zyrianov moves to the flank? in FM lenguage it might be his preffered move, not arrow. arrow will allways move him there, PPM will do only when he thinks it's apropriate. and that's more realistic, imo.

but I agree with you we should be able to encourege (not control!!) our players' movement. 'comes deep for ball', 'moves into chanels'... it is player's habbit but it's also very basical tactical instruction, imho. personally I don't like idea of learning PPM's. at least not if it's not thought very very well. for example imo, any player with some inteligence should be able to understand and learn instruction 'hug the line'. i'm talking about weeks, month maybe. but can any manager train 29 y.o., 100 kg centre back to 'try tricks'?

[afeckingname]

after reading what wwfan had to say in this post i realised i had confused what the arrows done. i decided to play FM08 without using arrows, using a simple 4-4-2 i could get one striker to drop deep, i could get one midfielder to act as a protector of the back four, i could make a winger cut inside, i could get the other central midfielder to MAKE RUNS into advanced midfield positions. All of this i achieved using a combination of mentality, Fwr instructions, width and CF and Opposition Instructions. And and this is the big one for me I UNDERSTOOD exactly what i was doing and KNEW exactly why it was working. the match looked real to me.

i am really excited now to see a fully tested arrowless engine working, im more excited about that then 3D match view even. Bottom line is i felt like i had control of the team.

[Neb]

but I agree with you we should be able to encourege (not control!!) our players' movement. 'comes deep for ball', 'moves into chanels'... it is player's habbit but it's also very basical tactical instruction, imho. personally I don't like idea of learning PPM's. at least not if it's not thought very very well. for example imo, any player with some inteligence should be able to understand and learn instruction 'hug the line'. i'm talking about weeks, month maybe. but can any manager train 29 y.o., 100 kg centre back to 'try tricks'?

something like this then!

-> http://community.sigames.com/showthread.php?t=51020

[grokkk]

zyrianov moves to the flank? in FM lenguage it might be his preffered move, not arrow. arrow will allways move him there, PPM will do only when he thinks it's apropriate. and that's more realistic, imo.

really?

But he told in interview after the game with Germany that this was a Hidding tactic instruction,because Anykov was very active in attack and he must to close the space in the flang.

[shevelevee]

you said: run, move, move, move...now you're starting to understand it. players run and move to many directions, not just one.

but I agree with you we should be able to encourege (not control!!) our players' movement. 'comes deep for ball', 'moves into chanels'... it is player's habbit but it's also very basical tactical instruction, imho. personally I don't like idea of learning PPM's. at least not if it's not thought very very well. for example imo, any player with some inteligence should be able to understand and learn instruction 'hug the line'. i'm talking about weeks, month maybe. but can any manager train 29 y.o., 100 kg centre back to 'try tricks'?

And?? I'm starting understand that you again and again said me something strange and unbelievable to defend your point of view.

lol, look at the real football: yes, players move in different directions, but often there are The Main Direction (not only Forwad - if you say me about forward tuns again, I will kill myself) - and this must be the arrows role in FM series. MUST!

zhirkov goes forward very high up field, like any other attacking minded full back (mentality, forward runs)...it's about movement, not positioning. for instance IRE when ball is in right side of defence deep inside own area, he's holding his position, he's not FL.

and??? what about Zhirkov movements to center? Another fairy tales about right ol left-footed? as next:

yes arshavin cuts inside, mostly becouse he's right footed playing on left wing (but cutting in is not what you did with arrows, you were just positioning players, nothing else). i hope new ME is going to encourege wingers to move into the box. but again it's about forward runs and mentality, really.

How can forward runs influence on his cuts inside.........

but I agree with you we should be able to encourege (not control!!) our players' movement.

It's the game of the words - I say control, because don't know good english word, you say ecourege... But what's the pronlem with arrows? Why do you think that arrows can only control, not "encourege"?

Simply look at this -

direction of arrows*player condition"player morale*discipline in team*teamwork*flair*creativity*ball position*nearest players positions*forward runs*mentality*distance to run*decisions = where will the player run

Are in this example arrows totally control where will ther player run? NO. If it is so easy, why not fix, but lie us about "unrealistic arrows" "arrows is the main reason of awful match engine"? Why can't you stop this crazy ideas and understand that real common sence is something like example above...

[grokkk]

you said: run, move, move, move...now you're starting to understand it. players run and move to many directions, not just one.

yes arshavin cuts inside, mostly becouse he's right footed playing on left wing (but cutting in is not what you did with arrows, you were just positioning players, nothing else). i hope new ME is going to encourege wingers to move into the box. but again it's about forward runs and mentality, really.

zhirkov goes forward very high up field, like any other attacking minded full back (mentality, forward runs)...it's about movement, not positioning. for instance IRE when ball is in right side of defence deep inside own area, he's holding his position, he's not FL.

zyrianov moves to the flank? in FM lenguage it might be his preffered move, not arrow. arrow will allways move him there, PPM will do only when he thinks it's apropriate. and that's more realistic, imo.

but I agree with you we should be able to encourege (not control!!) our players' movement. 'comes deep for ball', 'moves into chanels'... it is player's habbit but it's also very basical tactical instruction, imho. personally I don't like idea of learning PPM's. at least not if it's not thought very very well. for example imo, any player with some inteligence should be able to understand and learn instruction 'hug the line'. i'm talking about weeks, month maybe. but can any manager train 29 y.o., 100 kg centre back to 'try tricks'?

and what about

Say me, how can I ask my AMC run to Dc position when we have no ball (as Semak in Russia vs Finland today)

:confused:

before u answer me read this plz

The mentality of the player is regulated only by his whereabouts on the field, in relation to his position of in other words, where he starts from during an attack. If his forward runs set to rare, he will maintain his position but will not shift down. The arrow just creates an illusion.Forward runs rarely is not equally to runs back,it's just mean that player will run rarely from his current position

[shevelevee]

And also - if you see game - Arshavin was nor left winger. But he is right-footed, yes.

[Guest Vilosophe]

really?

But he told in interview after the game with Germany that this was a Hidding tactic instruction,because Anykov was very active in attack and he must to close the space in the flang.

Poor Guus, for Mitja, He is not real...fortunately Guus doesn't know yet :asd:

[afeckingname]

shevelvee.....

arrows are not runs. in fact arrows dont exist the way you imagine them. what arrows could be represented as in actual fact is another circle blob for the same player, this is fact. for example if you have a ML with an arrow to AML what you actually have is two circle blobs with the same number on the formation line up in two different positions. let me be more clear, say your ML is number 8, now what the arrow does is create another number 8 in the AML position. it does not represent a RUN, it represents a position on the pitch, forward runs only kick in when that player has arrived at that position not before it. You see now how a ML with an arrow to AML and has the instruction Forward Run Often only makes that forward run WHEN he has arrived at the AML position?

you argue that no no no my ML in Real Life football is told to play two different positions, one with the ball one without the ball. NO he is not!!!!!!!!!!! he is told to RUN to a certain area of the field when the oppurtunity is on. key words here are Run and oppurtunity to do so, NOT every single time( arrow indicates to take up that position every single time) especially when it would make poor football sense to do so, that is, if there is no space to run into. it is that kind of idiotic instruction which makes the ME totally unrealistic.

Do you understand?

[Ackter]

No, he doesn't understand so I really don't see why anyone is even bothering to try and help when his attitude is so bad.

[Cougar2010]

I think something is lost in translation but I'm in agreement with Ackter.

I'm giving up trying to explain to the likes grokkk & shevelevee especially when they haven't even played the game.

I suggest you all play the demo and then make a choice whether to buy or not.

[grokkk]

I think something is lost in translation but I'm in agreement with Ackter.

I'm giving up trying to explain to the likes grokkk & shevelevee especially when they haven't even played the game.

I suggest you all play the demo and then make a choice whether to buy or not.

ok i write it again

P.S Yes i play FMLive and i saw FM09 beta version

[shevelevee]

No, he doesn't understand so I really don't see why anyone is even bothering to try and help when his attitude is so bad.

Ackter, i advise you to read something about real football, and look some matches IRL. And after that I will help you, and save your soul from the demonic unrealistic Arrows, which aren't runs

for example if you have a ML with an arrow to AML what you actually have is two circle blobs with the same number on the formation line up in two different positions. let me be more clear, say your ML is number 8, now what the arrow does is create another number 8 in the AML position. it does not represent a RUN, it represents a position on the pitch, forward runs only kick in when that player has arrived at that position not before it. You see now how a ML with an arrow to AML and has the instruction Forward Run Often only makes that forward run WHEN he has arrived at the AML position?

OMG, who learn you so stupid idea... When I say RUN or MOVE I mean that in specific situtations on the field, when manager ask his player, the player can change their position on the field - for example Semak today changed their position from AMC to DC, or Zhirkov change their position from AML to ST, or Arshavin change their position from AMR to ST, or Zyryanov change their position from DMC to AMRC or FRC - and when the episode end, he come back to their normal position.

So, now you see that your words about "two positions" are wrong - yes, players HAVE two, or three, or four positions on the field in a short or long period of match - and if you'll say that it is uneral, I will say you:

i advise you to read something about real football, and look some matches IRL. And after that I will help you, and save your soul from the demonic unrealistic Arrows, which aren't runs

You can names it as you like - moves, runs, cuts inside, unrealistic two positions, but the main idea is only one - players under manager instructions regullary change their position on ther field.

You say about "not every time" - I agree. And I wrote two posts before nice example:

direction of arrows*player condition"player morale*discipline in team*teamwork*flair*creativity*ball position*nearest players positions*forward runs*mentality*distance to run*decisions = where will the player run

that's my idea for SI, how they can tune arrows. If it is hard to realise - let's think about another ideas, but not about deleting.

[Ackter]

2 questions.

1. Did you have all the skills unlocked?

2. How did you see the beta version?

[shevelevee]

Ok, and I wtite again third time in this thread

Yes i play FMLive and i saw FM09 beta version

[shevelevee]

1. All skills

2. On russian TV lol

[grokkk]

2 questions.

1. Did you have all the skills unlocked?

2. How did you see the beta version?

1)yes

2)all researchers get number of betas for testing

[Ackter]

Good god.

(10)

[shevelevee]

I suggest you all play the demo and then make a choice whether to buy or not.

There are not any variants for me - I'm real fan of the series, and I will buy FM09 and I pre-ordered FML. There isn't any problems.

[afeckingname]

Ackter, i advise you to read something about real football, and look some matches IRL. And after that I will help you, and save your soul from the demonic unrealistic Arrows, which aren't runs

OMG, who learn you so stupid idea... When I say RUN or MOVE I mean that in specific situtations on the field, when manager ask his player, the player can change their position on the field - for example Semak today changed their position from AMC to DC, or Zhirkov change their position from AML to ST, or Arshavin change their position from AMR to ST, or Zyryanov change their position from DMC to AMRC or FRC - and when the episode end, he come back to their normal position.

So, now you see that your words about "two positions" are wrong - yes, players HAVE two, or three, or four positions on the field in a short or long period of match - and if you'll say that it is uneral, I will say you:

You can names it as you like - moves, runs, cuts inside, unrealistic two positions, but the main idea is only one - players under manager instructions regullary change their position on ther field.

You say about "not every time" - I agree. And I wrote two posts before nice example:

direction of arrows*player condition"player morale*discipline in team*teamwork*flair*creativity*ball position*nearest players positions*forward runs*mentality*distance to run*decisions = where will the player run

that's my idea for SI, how they can tune arrows. If it is hard to realise - let's think about another ideas, but not about deleting.

Again the arrows never determined the direction of a run so you are complaining about the removal of something wihich never implemented the very thing you wish to save it for.

Arrows you say allow you to position one player into another position when the team has or hasn't the ball. Therefore you say they are essential to tactical freedom. No, your tactical freedom is gone because players are told to follow the arrow regardless of a situation. It is rigid and unrealistic. Players decisions determine whether he should cover a position, make a run into space, dribble the ball etc. Yes a manager can tell a player to cover that position, but the manager does not tell the player to leave his brain at the door in doing so does he? or the manager who does tell a player to constantly cover a certain area cannot expect that player to cover it with absolute obidience which is effectively what happens with the implementation of arrows. the removal of the arrows allows for more realistic player actions as their attributes come into play. therefore a poor decision making player, a poor stamina player, a poor positional play player is not suddenly made a super human player because he has an arrow, arrows allow this to happen. the removal of the arrow allows for natural attributes to become a factor far more and thus create realistic matches.

you say SI should programme in such a way so that arrows can be retained but in such a way as to restrict the actions of the players with the arrows?yes? well then i propose to you the removal of the arrow's and finally proper implementation by the USER achieves all of these things. therefore your arguement falls on its face.

[TriAn]

simple question. Can irl manager tell player to move from zone of mrc to zone of amr then team gets the ball and only then he arrives in zone of amr try to find free zones with forward runs? Or, using another words, is such movement of player (then he firstly advances in strictly defined zone and only after that gets freedom to try forward runs) unrealistic and cann't be performed on field?

he will ask the mcr to get forward and wide in support of the attack. You can still that by asking him to make fwrs in a wide formation and look for crosses. I don't believe he will be told to shuffle to a specific secondary position prior to aiming to fulfil his supporting role. Football is more dynamic than that.

wwfan, it was very simple question. And this question needed simple answer. Something like "yes" or "no". Please, answer it once again. I know that you can write long eloquent posts. But this is not such case. Also it will save time and will make many things clear to me.

[Cougar2010]

I'll answer it TriAn.

NO is the most correct one word answer.

Given what you posted above a manager DOES NOT ask his player to do that, he does what wwfan has posted.

[TriAn]

I'll answer it TriAn.

NO is the most correct one word answer.

Given what you posted above a manager DOES NOT ask his player to do that, he does what wwfan has posted.

Thanks a lot but I need only wwfan's answer. Sorry mate, nothing personal.

[Quavis]

I'm actually really glad this post came about. I've been playing this game for three years now, and it wasn't until this post that I actually realized that arrows weren't doing what I thought they were. Knowing this, I can see why some of the tactics I've been playing with weren't near as effective as I thought they would be, and also why some of the players I've been using have been under-performing in the positions I've been playing them in. I'm actually looking forward to trying some new tactics and getting more into the individual position settings. Thanks to wwfan and others for explaining how the ME is actually seeing these tactical options.

[Mitja]

Thanks a lot but I need only wwfan's answer. Sorry mate, nothing personal.

i don't think you'll get it. but good luck anyway. cheers guys, i give up.

[peter-evo]

Thanks a lot but I need only wwfan's answer. Sorry mate, nothing personal.

Why do you need WWfan's answer, yes he is a very good poster but is Cougar, you wanted an answer, you got it, it will be the same for WWfan aswell, trust me, he knows what he is talking about and so does Cougar

[TriAn]

Why do you need WWfan's answer, yes he is a very good poster but is Cougar, you wanted an answer, you got it, it will be the same for WWfan aswell, trust me, he knows what he is talking about and so does Cougar

I prefer not to base my judgements on assumptions. So his answer itself will be much more useful to me than assumption about it.

I hope that I will be forgiven for this small wish. :o

[peter-evo]

I prefer not to base my judgements on assumptions. So his answer itself will be much more useful to me than assumption about it.

I hope that I will be forgiven for this small wish. :o

It pains me but you are forgiven, although I don't know whether he is posting at the moment!

[grokkk]

wwfan,simple question. Can irl manager tell player to move from zone of mrc to zone of amr then team gets the ball and only then he arrives in zone of amr try to find free zones with forward runs? Or, using another words, is such movement of player (then he firstly advances in strictly defined zone and only after that gets freedom to try forward runs) unrealistic and cann't be performed on field? [\QUOTE]

he will ask the mcr to get forward and wide in support of the attack. You can still that by asking him to make fwrs in a wide formation and look for crosses. I don't believe he will be told to shuffle to a specific secondary position prior to aiming to fulfil his supporting role. Football is more dynamic than that.

[\QUOTE]

I'll answer it TriAn.

NO is the most correct one word answer.

Given what you posted above a manager DOES NOT ask his player to do that, he does what wwfan has posted.

What the hell does team width has to do with the movements of a specific player????

I want play narrow throw the middle,but i,as manger,want that specific MRC (strong left foot) move to right flang. I don't want him crossing,only want him to close free zone after my AMR go forward.

[wwfan]

And to all those who now strongly defend the lack of arrows (well especially wwfan as a tactical guru iirc): how many of your previous tactics included arrows? Moreover, how often did you actually advocate a certain arrow in your tactic as being a logical thing and not merely an artificial attempt to expoit the ME?

I haven't used more than farrows on wingers for 2.5 years. I haven't used arrows at all for the last 8 months or so. I have never used an arrow that the AI doesn't. Pure enough for you

If not maybe someone like wwfan or Rashidi could find time to do a small resume on each control, I do feel it's a fair request.

Something is in the pipeline.

Jimbo - I'm probably one of only a handful of people in FML who have had access to the arrowless match engine with all tactical skills unlocked.

I have my complaints (as always ) but the lack of old-style arrows is 100% not one of them.

I'd be another and I agree. Although there were some things that needed changing for FM09, the main step forward in the ME was the removal of arrows. Bringing them back would be equivalent to 20 steps backwards.

after reading what wwfan had to say in this post i realised i had confused what the arrows done. i decided to play FM08 without using arrows, using a simple 4-4-2 i could get one striker to drop deep, i could get one midfielder to act as a protector of the back four, i could make a winger cut inside, i could get the other central midfielder to MAKE RUNS into advanced midfield positions. All of this i achieved using a combination of mentality, Fwr instructions, width and CF and Opposition Instructions. And and this is the big one for me I UNDERSTOOD exactly what i was doing and KNEW exactly why it was working. the match looked real to me.

i am really excited now to see a fully tested arrowless engine working, im more excited about that then 3D match view even. Bottom line is i felt like i had control of the team.

The standard misperception of their use was the final nail in their coffin. It appeared that 90% of the users saw them as runs and direction of runs. Prior to us discovering that, the main argument to keeping them was that they were the easiest instruction to understand. When we found out that they were the most difficult and taken with the other arguments for removing them, the choice was pretty easy.

Thanks for the description. Even in FM08 it is amazing how much better the ME looks without user arrows. As you said, you can also control much more precisely what your players are doing and can understand it much more easily, which makes it a lot more fun.

Can irl manager tell player to move from zone of mrc to zone of amr then team gets the ball and only then he arrives in zone of amr try to find free zones with forward runs? Or, using another words, is such movement of player (then he firstly advances in strictly defined zone and only after that gets freedom to try forward runs) unrealistic and cann't be performed on field?

There's a third answer and it is the most honest one. I don't know. I'd have to ask one. He could certainly use the words, but as to whether he would I really have no idea. However, I will still stand by my original post and suggest my translation of player movement instructions into manager-speak is the more likely one.

I'm actually really glad this post came about. I've been playing this game for three years now, and it wasn't until this post that I actually realized that arrows weren't doing what I thought they were. Knowing this, I can see why some of the tactics I've been playing with weren't near as effective as I thought they would be, and also why some of the players I've been using have been under-performing in the positions I've been playing them in. I'm actually looking forward to trying some new tactics and getting more into the individual position settings. Thanks to wwfan and others for explaining how the ME is actually seeing these tactical options.

As I'd hoped, the arrowless ME, or the idea of an arrowless ME, is opening a few eyes as to how tactics should and could work and how removing them enables people to see them holistically rather than as a collection of parts. Thanks for the post. I hope you'll enjoy the arrowless ME as much as I do.