Open letter to SI: The Realism or Without Arrows

[shevelevee]

Ok. let's wait for the biggest mistification of the year - for the replaced for arrows. Let's close this discussion, because nobody - not mine camp, which can't see any reason for remove arrows, not wwfan camp, which can't see any reasons to keep arrows... Every side have told all their arguments here, and can't prove their point.

I'm very unhappy to see this. When I ask about real happened things, like training shedules (didn't work in 8.01 - where were all testers, like wwfan or Ackter), like ICF (which work in 8.02 - and where were all testers?), nobody can't believe in this - only when we show all our tests, somebody believe. Now you again don't believe us - let's see what will be happen.

Also I want to say see - please, change your beta-testing system. Hire professional testers, or I don't know. Last realeses include so noticeable bugs, that I can't believe that somebody test the game. I can tell you why - I know many, very many beta-testers. 85% of testers download beta-version, play it, and enjoy it. Because this is new version, and they've got it before release day. And they don't make any tests. I repeat again - I khow many, very many testers which don't test game - simply play.

That's why we saw unreal pressing in 8.00, that's why we saw unreal corners in 8.02, that's why we saw unreal one-on-one in 8.01!

[Cougar2010]

maybe because i play FML

and there aren't someting replace for arrows.. same team/individual instructions as they were..

Is FML identical to FM09?

Do you not feel that the instructions and the way they react with the match engine have been improved compared to FM08?

On a side note what do you realistically hope to achieve with these posts?

Surely you understand its far to late to make these type of changes for FM09 so the best you can hope for is for it to be included in FM10.

[Neb]

Neb, but SI removed arrows, and gave NOTHING to replace. No new indvidual intstructions. That's the problem.

No!

Thats your percieved problem with it! wwfan and ackter have no problem with it and don't feel much (if any!) functionality has been lost from the game. They know a lot more than any of us about it so I'm confident that it will work well!

Like I said before, positional arrows are not reaslistic, running arrows are. The arrows in FM08 are positional arrows, the ones in FM09 are running arrows. The only thing missing in my opinion is a width individual instruction. SI are working on something and it isn't actually that bad as you can make players do what you want through the existing individual instructions. The addition of PPM training allows you to get the players to play to your formation even more.

I think you've blown the whole thing out of proportion, you think its a massive issue and demand action. when actually its only a small issue and the changes increase the realism of the game and make the tactics less confusing, with less contradictions.

I honestly can see where you are coming from, but if you are wanting to influence any future FM, you are going about it in the wrong way. Be more constructive, some criticism can be constructive but the way you lot have been posting it just comes across as trolling. As wwfan said, you seem to have no middle ground and seem to be unwilling to hear anyone elses opinion on the topic. Careful, you don't want to be labelled as the russian mafia....!

[shevelevee]

Surely you understand its far to late to make these type of changes for FM09 so the best you can hope for is for it to be included in FM10.

I'm afraid, that a lot of fans can be so frustrated with this strange changes, that they will not play in FM09 as much as they played in previous game of the series. And after one year missed, not all of them will come back.

wwfan and ackter have no problem with it

You forgot, that not all from 1.000.000 fans of the game are wwfan and Ackter.

Careful, you don't want to be labelled as the russian mafia....!

Now I see only NATO in this thread

[Neb]

Ok. let's wait for the biggest mistification of the year - for the replaced for arrows. Let's close this discussion, because nobody - not mine camp, which can't see any reason for remove arrows, not wwfan camp, which can't see any reasons to keep arrows... Every side have told all their arguments here, and can't prove their point.

I'm very unhappy to see this. When I ask about real happened things, like training shedules (didn't work in 8.01 - where were all testers, like wwfan or Ackter), like ICF (which work in 8.02 - and where were all testers?), nobody can't believe in this - only when we show all our tests, somebody believe. Now you again don't believe us - let's see what will be happen.

Also I want to say see - please, change your beta-testing system. Hire professional testers, or I don't know. Last realeses include so noticeable bugs, that I can't believe that somebody test the game. I can tell you why - I know many, very many beta-testers. 85% of testers download beta-version, play it, and enjoy it. Because this is new version, and they've got it before release day. And they don't make any tests. I repeat again - I khow many, very many testers which don't test game - simply play.

That's why we saw unreal pressing in 8.00, that's why we saw unreal corners in 8.02, that's why we saw unreal one-on-one in 8.01!

I think you'll find that as a result of a beta test on a massive scale (FML!) that the arrows were removed because it was identified as a weakness in the ME.

So basically what you've just asked for in the above post, has been done and as a result they've removed your precious arrows.

If you spotted them as bugs, did you post them on the bugs forum? I don't feel you are in a position to criticise if you spotted them but didn't report them!

[shevelevee]

If you spotted them as bugs, did you post them on the bugs forum? I don't feel you are in a position to criticise if you spotted them but didn't report them!

Unfortunately, I can't enter beta-testers forum. I don't know why.

[Neb]

I'm afraid, that a lot of fans can be so frustrated with this strange changes, that they will not play in FM09 as much as they played in previous game of the series. And after one year missed, not all of them will come back.

You forgot, that not all from 1.000.000 fans of the game are wwfan and Ackter.

True, but as far as I'm aware from the people posting so far only wwfan and ackter were heavily involved with developing the match engine. I would assume that they know much more about it than you and I do.

It seems a resonable assumption does it not?

[Neb]

Unfortunately, I can't enter beta-testers forum. I don't know why.

Beta testers need to show a logic and the ability to know when the ME isn't working as it should. You maybe failed the entrance test...! (only joking!)

After the release, anyone can post on the bugs forum.

If you were that concerned, you should have posted the bug on there so that SI could look at it.

[shevelevee]

No. When I saw wwfan arguments, I can't agree that he is a Master of The Match Engine, as somebody think, and totally agreed with him, when he is mistaken. That happen sometime - i'm and our website stand well with FMBritain and wwfan personnaly during two years. But now I don't understand his position. This is not personal, but I must say, that now wwfan is mistaken.

And i'm very disappointed with this.

[Guest Vilosophe]

The arrows in FM08 are positional arrows, the ones in FM09 are running arrows.

The 'running arrows' in FM09 are NOT a new/different instruction: they are in FM08 as single instruction (the forward run), so how can it say that they are better than the 08's arrows ? They are another thing.

And it clear from the wwfan and others' post, where the game want to go: more decisions left to ingame football palyers, poor control by human mister.

[shevelevee]

If you were that concerned, you should have posted the bug on there so that SI could look at it.

Of course. It was very hard for us to discuss in this topic. Can you logically answer the question:

Неужели вы не согласны с тем, что система игры должна обеспечивать правильное (пропорциональное) заполнение игроками футбольного поля, т. е. разумное распределение сил: предоставлять возможность концентрации их в той части поля, где это наиболее необходимо в данной игровой ситуации.

Но в нынешней ситуации влияние менеджера на концентрацию игроков в той или иной части поля ограниченно.

Try to answer, and you will see, how it's hard for us to prove somebody something. But now it's time for us to start try - because we don't see any opposite side, which will criticise this awful decision.

When FM09 will released, we will try to post all our criticism about ME. May be it can help a little, but i don't believe.

[Cougar2010]

And it clear from the wwfan and others' post, where the game want to go: more decisions left to ingame football palyers, poor control by human mister.

Is this not what fans have been asking for?

For the player stats to become more meaningful and the difference between a good & bad player to be more noticeable whether it be physical, mental or technical skills.

If you want direct control of a player you go and play PES or FIFA, if you want to manage you play FM.

How frustated do you think a lower league RL manager is when his player keeps giving away possession or doesn't have the vision to see a free man.

[pina]

Of course. It was very hard for us to discuss in this topic. Can you logically answer the question:

Неужели вы не согласны с тем, что система игры должна обеспечивать правильное (пропорциональное) заполнение игроками футбольного поля, т. е. разумное распределение сил: предоставлять возможность концентрации их в той части поля, где это наиболее необходимо в данной игровой ситуации.

Но в нынешней ситуации влияние менеджера на концентрацию игроков в той или иной части поля ограниченно.

Try to answer, and you will see, how it's hard for us to prove somebody something. But now it's time for us to start try - because we don't see any opposite side, which will criticise this awful decision.

When FM09 will released, we will try to post all our criticism about ME. May be it can help a little, but i don't believe.

One of the problems is that the Match Engine is an abstraction of football - it is an abstraction because SI don't care what happens in the middle as long as what happens in the middle looks like football - they only care about the end result- proper and realistic scorelines and stats.

What you want is as far as I understand it, is to have an influence, for your players to be all on the left side during an attack for example, right? you want your players to be "concentrated at the left" during a certain moment of the game, for example to exploit the weak side of the other team..right?

Well, if you do that then that order will be a "specific" command, what SI want is for you to give "abstract" commands, that means you can only tell a player to attack more, attack more frequently, etc etc etc

this sort of system (ME) leads to more "correct" football results but takes away "freedom"

is that what you're trying to say?????

[shevelevee]

yes, you hit the bull's-eye

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

This is a really interesting discussion, but I see it needlessly getting a bit out of hand with people falling out and verbally pushing and shoving.

Shevelevee and friends, I *think* I understand your point, but can I just summarise it and you can perhaps let me know if you agree or not on each of these points?

1) You can understand that dragging arrows out in FM08 and previous versions didn't actually do what you (and I) thought they did?

2) You can accept that the previous implementation of arrows had to be removed because it was having such a hugely negative effect on the match engine. This is not to say that the idea of using arrows as a tactical device is wrong, just that how it was implemented was wrong?

3) You don't necessarily want the previous implementation of arrows back, but are disappointed and concerned that in FM09 and beyond, in order to tell a player where you would like to make runs to that you have to use a combination of multiple sliders and tick-boxes, rather than something more visual and intuitive such as dragging out an arrow?

Would all those be fair to say?

wwfan, out of interest, how do you feel about point #3?

Cheers

[pina]

by the way, ignore Ackter and wwfan, they are SI's doormats so don't worry too much about them they only exist for people to walk over them and have found refuge here.

I agree with you about the limitations of the match engine and the fact that SI have reduced our freedom in order to make the game more balanced., but too me that's fine.

[shevelevee]

1) Yes

2) Yes

3) Yes

[shevelevee]

4) I want more instructions available in tactic screen)))

[Neb]

The 'running arrows' in FM09 are NOT a new/different instruction: they are in FM08 as single instruction (the forward run), so how can it say that they are better than the 08's arrows ? They are another thing.

And it clear from the wwfan and others' post, where the game want to go: more decisions left to ingame football palyers, poor control by human mister.

exactly!

The way it is in real life. It might be that outside of britain, managers do things differently. But as I understand it, a manager wouldn't tell his player to be in one position while defending and a completely separate position while attacking. he'd tell his player to play there, for example MC, but when we've got the ball push up, run into space, or make forward runs, run with the ball, take people on.

Part of the push up, move into space would be the same as move into the AM position. The player would do that automatically.

I don't think arrows are needed, but I do think a better description of what 'attacking mentality' means is needed. (whether wwfan does it or not, someone should!)

I see attacking mentality as get forward, move into attacking positions, make opportunities to score. That would obviously include move into a more advanced position on the pitch. So it is much more general than move to the AMC position. It allows the player to make the decision of what to do in the right circumstances, which lets face it is exactly what happens in real life. The manager has no control over a players position.

[wwfan]

Again, I'm going to have to correct a few misconceptions about how things work. As I mentioned before, Ackter and I don't always agree. That is because his feedback is predominantly quantitative (i.e. the match stats need to fit with reality) mine is far more qualitative (i.e. is what is happening on the pitch related to how I perceive real world tactics should work in the 2d). This different type of feedback is vital for development. It also helps major changes, such as the arrow removal, fit with multiple playing camps.

Removing arrows frees up movement. It is more fluid and dynamic and players react to what is happening on the pitch. Tactical instructions targeting certain players (think Gerrard's second half role in the Belarus game), or an area of the pitch (think of passing down the flank to get the best out of Walcott's pace) or a general strategy (think of how you would want to open up in the final third against a team that is sitting back) are now far more important than trying to trick the ME into thinking you are using an FC when in fact you are intending to employ him as an FR. It's a far better game and holistic tactical options are far more effective. The FMfans.ru guys seemingly haven't worked that out. That's OK, it was always going to be a steep learning curve and they can't have played it much yet.

However, I'm getting fed up of hearing that the removal of arrows is a fundamental and totally misguided error which will ruin the FM experience and turn it into an arcade game from a bunch of guys who had no input into the process, can't have played with the arrowless ME for longer than a couple of months tops and have misunderstood arrows from the start. If I was a poster who was known for trying to exploit the engine, I could get their position. However, seeing as my reputation is the most 'pure' of the tacticians in terms of wanting to achieve tactical realism I don't see how my position is immediately perceived as one in which I am advocating the dumbing down of the system. I'm advocating for more clarity, greater freedom and control and less chance of exploitation. If that still hasn't got through, then I'm stumped as to why not.

As for the training, I have nothing to do with that element of the game. I report purely on the ME and tactics. However, let's not let facts get in the way of yet another dig in the ribs.

[shevelevee]

exactly!

The way it is in real life.

))))))))))) Please, stop. I will present you some books about football. You can learn a lot from this books.

[shevelevee]

Again, I'm going to have to correct a few misconceptions about how things work. As I mentioned before, Ackter and I don't always agree. That is because his feedback is predominantly quantitative (i.e. the match stats need to fit with reality) mine is far more qualitative (i.e. is what is happening on the pitch related to how I perceive real world tactics should work in the 2d).

I understand - you need to improve only one: you need a man, who will talk with you about "how manager IRL manage his team tactic"

[howard moon]

))))))))))) Please, stop. I will present you some books about football. You can learn a lot from this books.

People have taken plenty of time to respond to your queries, complaints and concerns. Comments like this are not helpful.

I understand that you are passionate about the game, and you have a genuine concern. But you have to understand that people who are developing the game at SI, and the testers, have made this decision because it will make tactical options on FM 09 better (for reasons which have been posted continually through the thread). To suggest that they are trying to dumb the game down is wrong, as is reverting to silly comments like the one above.

[Elohir]

...I will have to eat my hat out, ...

How to tell when someone's been using the internet too much..

[shevelevee]

I heard this song about "better" and "realistic". Please, try to read this thread once again, you're not the first, and this is not the best try.

[GoGa70]

I understand - you need to improve only one: you need a man, who will talk with you about "how manager IRL manage his team tactic"

Well, you know it all obviously.....

[Neb]

))))))))))) Please, stop. I will present you some books about football. You can learn a lot from this books.

I'm not going to attempt to prove my tactical knowledge to you. That wouldn't achieve anything, you wouldn't believe me (you don't seem to believe wwfan/ackter) and to be honest, its completely childish and I'm not 12.

I don't need to prove my knowledge in the same way I don't need to discredit your understanding of the game, both FM and in real life. you've been quite capable of doing that by yourself.

Over and out.

[shevelevee]

Thanks, and good bye.

[Äktsjon Männ]

I said I'd stay out, but this is ridiculous.

shevelevee, what exactly are you trying to achieve? You made your points, some of which may be valid or not, but why are you turning this into some sort of crusade to prove you're right? You're not putting yourself across well and you're doing more harm than good to this debate. Don't make this any more personal than it already is and let there be genuine discussion as it actually is an interesting subject for many of us.

[shevelevee]

I don't ask nobody to name me "dimwit" "cheater" "troll" or other. And i'm not stupid - but people want to repeat their post 5 or 6 time. If mods ignore this, because these people are on their "camp", I can't ignore this. But ok, I will be more polite now.

[Cougar2010]

I don't ask nobody to name me "dimwit" "cheater" "troll" or other. And i'm not stupid - but people want to repeat their post 5 or 6 time. If mods ignore this, because these people are on their "camp", I can't ignore this. But ok, I will be more polite now.

People are repeating their posts because your "camp" are repeating the same questions/opinions.

At the moment we disagree, that might change once the game is released and people have played it.

Maybe even you will change your mind once you've played the game but at the moment we have nothing to refer to as the game hasn't been released so we just going round in circles.

[shevelevee]

People are repeating their posts because your "camp" are repeating the same questions/opinions.

At the moment we disagree, that might change once the game is released and people have played it.

Maybe even you will change your mind once you've played the game but at the moment we have nothing to refer to as the game hasn't been released so we just going round in circles.

Let me show you example

User1: 2+2=4?

User2: 2-2=0

User1: But I don't talk about 2-2, I ask about 2+2

User2: 2-2=0

I hope you understand what I mean)

[d2024p]

Well I've ploughed through 6 pages of this now so I think I've earned the right to post my views for what they're worth!

Surely the most logical approach to this 'problem' is to imagine a DC farrowed to FC, with with rare forward runs. In this instance the farrow will actively contradict the player instructions or vice versa. He is being told not to get forward, but at the same time he is being told to take up as advanced a position as possible every time his team wins posession.

It is completely baffling why any FM player would want any sets of player instructions contradicting others. It is quite apparent to me that as soon as the slider system was implemented (instantly adding the control and dynamism that those criticising the removal of arrows are now bemoaning the 'loss' of) arrows had to go. The two systems are mutually exclusive. The question should not be whether they should be kept, but why they were accommodated for so long in the first place.

[Selleckta]

3) You don't necessarily want the previous implementation of arrows back, but are disappointed and concerned that in FM09 and beyond, in order to tell a player where you would like to make runs to that you have to use a combination of multiple sliders and tick-boxes, rather than something more visual and intuitive such as dragging out an arrow?

This is the key point in this whole thread.

[d2024p]

This is the key point in this whole thread.

But if I understand correctly this 'intuitive' arrow would have to have only one ME function expressed in terms of slider variables => short farrow on ML -> AML increases say, 3 points on defensive/attacking slider and changes forward runs from rarely to mixed. (Or however exactly it works - I don't pretend to be an expert on the precise programming)

This system would take out a lot of the fine tuning variables, and also allow the arrow even to contradict the more subtle player instructions.

[peter-evo]

I must say that I have learnt alot from this thread,

Shevelee, you are constantly mentioning that with the new system you will not be able to get your RM to cut inside to AMR. You couldn't do this anyway, all you could do was make him defend as a right midfielder and attack as an AMR, if he ever had the ball out wide the arrow would make no difference on him cutting inside onto his better foot, infact, they just reduced the possibilites this player had, he was no longer playing as a Right midfielder, he was swapping between the two which often left a pass to him impossible as he ran, almost robot like, to his new attacking position

The arrows did not influence what happened with the ball, but without it, if you made an arrow from your LB to an RW position, he wouldn't run with the ball towards the RW position, he would make his way over there without the ball.

What happens with the ball is not influenced by arrows, therefore your constant argument about cutting inside onto a better foot is irelevant.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

It is completely baffling why any FM player would want any sets of player instructions contradicting others. It is quite apparent to me that as soon as the slider system was implemented (instantly adding the control and dynamism that those criticising the removal of arrows are now bemoaning the 'loss' of) arrows had to go. The two systems are mutually exclusive. The question should not be whether they should be kept, but why they were accommodated for so long in the first place.

But I don't think anyone is actually asking for 2 sets of instructions that contradict each other. From what I can gather, the thing that people are actually debating is really whether or not the wrong system was removed, not that one of them had to go.

I know not everyone is a fan of the slider system as an interface for communicating your desired tactics, and I think it's understandable that some people are concerned that this decision is a significant further move in that direction.

In an ideal world, I for one would much prefer to be able to set player's starting positions and runs in a more visual fashion - dragging the dots around and drawing arrows etc. - as opposed to changing combinations of unintuitively named sliders in order to try and achieve the desired results. And yes, I do genuinely believe that the sliders are unintuitive for people who do not know about these forums and can't read the (excellent) explanations from wwfan et al. Players starting positions should be a seperate control for example, not a by-product of the mentality slider, in my opinion anyway.

I think everyone, including our passionate Russian friends, agree with wwfan that the original implementation of arrows had to go. wwfan has done an excellent job of explaining and defending that decision. But I think that a debate on whether or not a better solution (either long or short term) exists is quite important.

[Selleckta]

Originally Posted by Squirmy Rooter 2.0

3) You don't necessarily want the previous implementation of arrows back, but are disappointed and concerned that in FM09 and beyond, in order to tell a player where you would like to make runs to that you have to use a combination of multiple sliders and tick-boxes, rather than something more visual and intuitive such as dragging out an arrow?

This is the key point in this whole thread.

But if I understand correctly this 'intuitive' arrow would have to have only one ME function expressed in terms of slider variables => short farrow on ML -> AML increases say, 3 points on defensive/attacking slider and changes forward runs from rarely to mixed. (Or however exactly it works - I don't pretend to be an expert on the precise programming)

This system would take out a lot of the fine tuning variables, and also allow the arrow even to contradict the more subtle player instructions.

I'm not saying I agree with it, only that it's important that people realise that this is (I think) the key gripe here.

The old arrows have gone, and the reasons behind that need to be accepted by all. However, what some people are saying now is that rather than use other tactical controls to influence the ME, they would rather be able to use some kind of new arrow/graphical system to illustrate/suggest to their players how they would like them to behave on the pitch. If necessary, this would be in place of exisitng tick boxes and sliders.

[d2024p]

This is the key point in this whole thread.

But I don't think anyone is actually asking for 2 sets of instructions that contradict each other. From what I can gather, the thing that people are actually debating is really whether or not the wrong system was removed, not that one of them had to go.

I know not everyone is a fan of the slider system as an interface for communicating your desired tactics, and I think it's understandable that some people are concerned that this decision is a significant further move in that direction.

In an ideal world, I for one would much prefer to be able to set player's starting positions and runs in a more visual fashion - dragging the dots around and drawing arrows etc. - as opposed to changing combinations of unintuitively named sliders in order to try and achieve the desired results. And yes, I do genuinely believe that the sliders are unintuitive for people who do not know about these forums and can't read the (excellent) explanations from wwfan et al. Players starting positions should be a seperate control for example, not a by-product of the mentality slider, in my opinion anyway.

I think everyone, including our passionate Russian friends, agree with wwfan that the original implementation of arrows had to go. wwfan has done an excellent job of explaining and defending that decision. But I think that a debate on whether or not a better solution (either long or short term) exists is quite important.

I appreciate your measured repsonse, and thank you for clarifying exactly what the issue was that was being discussed. I think I must agree with you that the sliders are far from ideal - you don't (and can't) brief your mercurial winger by saying "Right, Arjen, today I want you to be attacking 18, with 17 creative freedom and 15 closing down" - our capacity to communicate does not have that many nuances and variables. I do believe however that arrow systems are too simplistic to be able to convey the inherent 'tinkerability' of football tactics (I'm sure Claudio Ranieri would agree with me on this!) In order to implement a system of 'arrows', you'd need (I believe) to go back to the wibble/wobble system and set up arrows for all players in all situations with and without the ball and in all sectors of the park. I think this would be even less intuitive and would take even longer to set up. If any system has best balance of ease of use and complexity it's sliders all the way. Despite this I agree that it is very flawed. Maybe with the new 3D representation the wibble/wobble could make a successful comeback as you really would be able to see the precise results of finely-tuned tinkering.

[paul andrew]

This is the key point in this whole thread.

Yeah i think ur right after reading through the whole thread i can see both sides of the argument,and what we need i think is new tactical options regarding ,player width and diagonal runs ,with the removal of side arrows will a 4-3-3 work for instance

0--0--0

<-0--0--0-->

0---0---0---0

Just a thought would be a width slider for defence/midfield/attack.This would replace side arows but also give us more tactical options in the gmae so we can position players where we want too.

Also for diagonal arows could be replaced by a tick box asing for wingers to cut inside/or stay wide.

I feel Football manager should reward players for being creative with there tactics,it seems to me That Sports interactive are trying to stop people exploiting the match engine,but all the time they were just trying to be creative with there tactics.

Im still hoping FM2009 will be a great game.

[Squirmy Rooter 2.0]

I do believe however that arrow systems are too simplistic to be able to convey the inherent 'tinkerability' of football tactics

Absolutely. You would need much more besides, but other systems that would work well in conjunction with each other, rather than contradict.

Any ideas?

Heh heh. I don't think there exists an easy solution to this - otherwise someone would have done it by now. But hopefully just discussing it is of some use, however small, to SI.

[Mitja]

Because manager IRL can ask his players about everything, the only limit is common sence. And I whant to have this ability, as I had ability to set player positions as in CM01-02 for example - with or without ball

We're talking about Football Managerm and serious change in Tactic Control, not about me or you, and this is very strnage, when mods let you abuse me. (may be because you support mods' poin of view?)

But if you whant to know, I'm russian policeman, officer, and I think that you don't know anything about football tactics in real life.

you're a funny guy. are you tring to say you won't let me in, in Russia. I was just thinking about wisiting Moscow

what does a police job got to do with football knowledge??!

I'm not abusing you (well a little maybe), I just wanted to know your age...

[Mitja]

Really totally pointless in holding a discussion.

Would it be out of my bounds to simply suggest to the folks that if they are ultimately not happy with the progress and direction SI has taken with their game, it would do good for them to find another game that would hold all their ideals close at heart and if they were to have the misfortune of not finding such a game, create one that would match their ideals to a T?

I'm not sure but none of those games don't have ARROOOOOWS!!!!

[kimz]

shevelevee... why dont you create a poll on this thread ?

1. agree arrowz should be removed

2. we should keep it

3. abstain

we will know what fm-ers want......

[Mitja]

However, the FM AI tactics do not play the same way as the FML Defaults, which have pretty major structural errors when looked at in detail. If, in FML, you spent some time working out how different pitch sizes, mentality systems, run, closing down and passing patterns, OIs, free roles, creative freedom etc impacted upon performance, you would soon be able to beat sides with much better players. If you focused on micro movements of specific players, you will have next to no chance, because it is the wrong way to look at things.

For long I wanted to know how AI sets up his tactics. and play like it. I think we should now how to play the AI way. not the whole picture, just some basics like: does it set the team on individual or team mentality, passing, closing down and creative freedom? How does AI handle forward runs? basiclly what I want to know is which sliders does it set team/individual instructions.

this way some FM players could be able to play as realisticlly as possible without tring to exploit the ME, in FM terms of course.

wwfan I really belive you should present us with some of these in your T&F09. I know we shouldn't know everything about how AI's playing and that every manager has and should have his own tactical style. but we need to know the basics: what does every slider mean and how they work in conjunction with each other, and how does AI do it's tactics.

[Selleckta]

shevelevee... why dont you create a poll on this thread ?

1. agree arrowz should be removed

2. we should keep it

3. abstain

we will know what fm-ers want......

No. That is not the discussion here.

[DB1]

This is turning into a right ol' battle and the game/demo isn't even available yet.

Until we can play the game itself I don't think anyone can say that its a good idea or a bad idea.

People that have played FML have ideas and for the rest of us we will have to try it "with an open mind"

It could be great and we'll wonder what all the fuss was or it'll go wrong and we'll keep playing FM2008 with an update.

I'm looking forward to it as some of the tactics being used we're getting a bit crazy. It was like an etch a sketch on acid. All designed to trick the AI.

I'm planning tactics in my head on getting players in to do the job i need. Looking at PPMs "cuts inside, stays back" Build the team and not have to resort to a "diablo"

I can't wait and think it'll be a good challenge.

[sacripante]

After reading almost all posts in this topic, i try to write one myself..

I have understood ther reasons leading to decision of remove arrows, but i understand even the reason of the russian people (i use this only as a reference, i mean no offense).

Actually, a manager in real life can give many duties to his players, and you cant do the same here. And, personal opinion, i hate most sliders and i found their use a little annoying and difficult to understand (exception= the "run with ball" one, with only 3 position).

I agree with the guy (jimbokav71, i think) who wrote something against the wibble/wobble, because u canst assign to every player his precise position (or "spot") on the field, but...

But i think the wibble/wobble, if correctly implemented, could be a really easy interface to use. it should not be a "you must be here, you there..." etc, but only a way to design the approssimative "shape" of team in every situation, having a visual and much more intuitive way to see what SHOULD happen on the pitch.

Examples:

1) I want my right back go forward supporting my winger, and/or overlapping him, but i dont want let my right flank uncovered ---> i move the icon representing my FB very forward, and the icon representing one of my MC (or the DM) a little back and towards right, telling him "your duty is to cover the hole when our FB is forward", and not "you must be in that squard yard".

2) i want one of my forwards go on the flank, so there is a open space where one of my MC can run, and i adjust the icon in the right way

...

Well my english is not so good so i dont want go on too much, but i hope u can understand what i mean: the positions should not as a "this is your place", but simply give to every player his particular duty (and please dont tell me "this is unrealistic", because it is what really happens).

A combination between the "icons of the pitch" screen and the "run with ball" slider indicates if a player should do the movement indicated (forward, lateral etc) mostly with ball (cutting inside) or without ball (remember, the movement without ball are very important in football, because they creates spaces where other players can go). Obviously the ME should consider even the movement requested, so tactics where (i.e.) a RB is placed as FL simply doesnt works because the player is almost costantly out of position (too much space to cover) but the movements described by shevelevee are ALL possible (as they are IRL).

If i have understand well, almost all of these instruction are possible even with the sliders, but a little more difficult to understand and put together in a organic and balanced tactics.

This way u could remove many sliders, and there is no need to introduce "lateral movement" sliders.

More offensive and/or more defensive tactics could be easily designed, and with a well tuned ME unrealistic tactics should not work. Obviously not so good players cant do what the manager ask with the correct timing (--> thy move too soon, too late, when they should not..), and tactics with more movement are more difficult if you have not first class players.

So, as IRL, a manager can have a "standard" tactics, and ask for little adjustement before a match (moving the MCs a little back if they need to support the defense, or towards a flank if there is a very good winger to close down, etc..). This should be done in the week before the match (preparing and setting up the match tactic, as happens IRL but not here, where training is only a general aspect not finalised to a single match). So more time you have to prepare that match, better result u have (in terms of team cohordination etc.)

Well i have read what i wrote and i fear is not so correct in english, but i hope you will forgive me and try to understand what i mean: im looking simply a easier and more complete way to give instruction and duties to the players, and i hope this post could be constructive, and lead to find advantages and disvantages of this ipotetical interface.

[Amaroq]

1) I want my right back go forward supporting my winger, and/or overlapping him, but i dont want let my right flank uncovered ---> i move the icon representing my FB very forward, and the icon representing one of my MC (or the DM) a little back and towards right, telling him "your duty is to cover the hole when our FB is forward", and not "you must be in that squard yard".

2) i want one of my forwards go on the flank, so there is a open space where one of my MC can run, and i adjust the icon in the right way

...

Well my english is not so good so i dont want go on too much, but i hope u can understand what i mean: the positions should not as a "this is your place", but simply give to every player his particular duty (and please dont tell me "this is unrealistic", because it is what really happens).

Your english is fine, sacripante. I've bolded the word "duty" in the segment I've quoted because I think it was perfect word choice for the concept.

Currently, we can't tell our players what we want their duty to be in given situations.

There's no way to "look at game film" and say, "Here, see here, where you stepped forward to take on the midfielder, leaving the striker completely unmarked in your zone? I want you to stick with your man in that situation."

Instead, I have to adjust the "Closing Down" setting. Okay, fine. But when there's nobody in his zone, I want him to close down the midfielder. And if there's a loose ball he thinks he can win, I want him to break forward to try and win it.

Or the "Outside the Area" midfielder on corner kicks: I want him to go hard to a ball when it bounces clear of the area, retaining possession in the attacking third. That's very different from what I want him doing when he's in his normal role .. and I have no way to communicate that to him.

A real manager has many tools for this. He can review game film with his players. He can schedule "walk-throughs" where the squad concentrates on movement on an empty pitch. He can blow a whistle to halt a scrimmage, and point out where somebody is out of position and where he wants them to be instead. And, of course, he can draw it out on a whiteboard in a team meeting.

It certainly isn't arrows ... but I'll agree with sacripante that its a concept that it would be nice to be able to communicate with my players.

[Guest Vilosophe]

Is this not what fans have been asking for?

For the player stats to become more meaningful and the difference between a good & bad player to be more noticeable whether it be physical, mental or technical skills.

If you want direct control of a player you go and play PES or FIFA, if you want to manage you play FM.

How frustated do you think a lower league RL manager is when his player keeps giving away possession or doesn't have the vision to see a free man.

No, I think you seem show a poor knowledge about manage a team: a mister, a professional mister, tell as much as possible instructions to not left his (poor-level) players in ther mercy of their poor abilities.

If You don't tell to Pirlo/Lampard/CRonaldo what they must do, they are so intellingent that they KNOW what must do;

but if you don't tell any instruction to poor player, they CANNOT know how move in the pitch e what do with the ball.

The game of football is not made only by great players, but also great managers.

You and wwfan want FM determinated by only ingame players, but it's a tactical game. And you slowly want delete all the difficulty of the game, to make all win with all teams.