Open letter to SI: The Realism or Without Arrows

[GoGa70]

but if you don't tell any instruction to poor player, they CANNOT know how move in the pitch e what do with the ball.

Really? I was a poor player yet I knew not to touch it with my hands.... I knew somehow I should use my feet instead even though it was very uncomfortable.

[peter-evo]

Really? I was a poor player yet I knew not to touch it with my hands.... I knew somehow I should use my feet instead even though it was very uncomfortable.

I agree, any player on Football Manager should know where to go and what to do, I mean, nowadays you have to be good at any level above amatuer!

[Cougar2010]

No, I think you seem show a poor knowledge about manage a team: a mister, a professional mister, tell as much as possible instructions to not left his (poor-level) players in ther mercy of their poor abilities.

If You don't tell to Pirlo/Lampard/CRonaldo what they must do, they are so intellingent that they KNOW what must do;

but if you don't tell any instruction to poor player, they CANNOT know how move in the pitch e what do with the ball.

The game of football is not made only by great players, but also great managers.

You and wwfan want FM determinated by only ingame players, but it's a tactical game. And you slowly want delete all the difficulty of the game, to make all win with all teams.

and where exactly are we losing instructions??

I'm playing 08 at the moment and count nearly 20 team instructions and then nearly 20 more individual instructions. I've already pointed out numerous times a couple of areas that I feel are missing from these but in general we have a fair choice at present which can be expanded in the future.

In fact if anything I agree with others that many of these options should be simplified as they are unrealistic (For newcomers to the series it must be very daunting).

[Amaroq]

One interesting thing to note, for me, was playing FM'08 last night, with this debate fresh in my mind.

I decided to try replacing my "creative attacking" formation, which had four arrows from a basic 4-4-2, to a flat 4-4-2 with adjustments to CF, FW, and Free Roles to heighten what I wanted from my players.

I watched the match in Full.

I saw a lot more of the kind of movements I wanted, en route to a comfortable 3-0 victory.

Without my MR pushing forward to AMR automatically whenever I had the ball, my (talented for my division) DR made more overlapping runs than he had previously, getting involved in the attack to the tune of a goal, an assist, and Man of the Match.

With the wingers not automatically bombing forward, but doing so on their choice, they were back in support of the fullbacks much more often than they had been. That led to a lot fewer chances for the opposition, as we forced turnovers higher up the pitch.

When the opposition fullbacks came forward to challenge my (somewhat withdrawn) wingers, there was space in behind them for sizzling balls to my strikers, or the strikers were suddenly in one-on-one situations with the DC's.

Without a barrow to DM, my MCd got just a bit more involved in the attack, never overcommitting, and always tracking back hard after a loss of possession, but he was instrumental in the buildup to the second goal in a way that he hadn't been all season.

My drop-deep ST still dropped deep to collect and play through balls; I really didn't see much difference in his play at all.

Its only one match, but I liked the *look* of our play more than I had with the four-arrow formation.

[Cougar2010]

Forgot to add to that.

I've not associated with FM in any way except as a fan who has played for the last 15 years.

I want FM to balance the match so its a mix of tactics, players skills & man management (Team talks etc). Personally I feel at the moment that player skills aren't as important as they should be but hopefully FM09 should be a step closer to the ideal.

As for the comments about poor players, do you really think just because you tell a player something he does it on the pitch? - I can tell you for a fact he doesn't.

Intelligent players understand instructions better, can take on board more complex tactics and are more likely to carry them out on the pitch (Providing they aren't too headstrong and think they know everything).

Less intelligent players need you to keep things basic and simple. They are also more likely to forget the tactics when playing especially when adreline and fatigue take over.

[peter-evo]

One interesting thing to note, for me, was playing FM'08 last night, with this debate fresh in my mind.

I decided to try replacing my "creative attacking" formation, which had four arrows from a basic 4-4-2, to a flat 4-4-2 with adjustments to CF, FW, and Free Roles to heighten what I wanted from my players.

I watched the match in Full.

I saw a lot more of the kind of movements I wanted, en route to a comfortable 3-0 victory.

Without my MR pushing forward to AMR automatically whenever I had the ball, my (talented for my division) DR made more overlapping runs than he had previously, getting involved in the attack to the tune of a goal, an assist, and Man of the Match.

With the wingers not automatically bombing forward, but doing so on their choice, they were back in support of the fullbacks much more often than they had been. That led to a lot fewer chances for the opposition, as we forced turnovers higher up the pitch.

When the opposition fullbacks came forward to challenge my (somewhat withdrawn) wingers, there was space in behind them for sizzling balls to my strikers, or the strikers were suddenly in one-on-one situations with the DC's.

Without a barrow to DM, my MCd got just a bit more involved in the attack, never overcommitting, and always tracking back hard after a loss of possession, but he was instrumental in the buildup to the second goal in a way that he hadn't been all season.

My drop-deep ST still dropped deep to collect and play through balls; I really didn't see much difference in his play at all.

Its only one match, but I liked the *look* of our play more than I had with the four-arrow formation.

I've done the same and even my Braintree team looked better.

The runs made by the players were alot more intelligent and we seemed to keep the ball alot better, this was due to my wingers being available for passes alot more, the removement of the forward arrow meant there movements corresponded with play.

It was alot easier on the eye and I felt that the players were finally doing as I wanted.

By no means was the match good, it was slow but that is not due to the arrows, more to do with the division and players. I have alot to thank this thread for, the arrows can be used but not as I first thought they could. I really enjoy the game alot more now I have found this out at the wrong time really, with approximately 2weeks until the demo I would have preferred to know these facts along time ago

Ackter and WWfan I thank you for your persistance and taking the big question of "why is he over there when I don't want him to be?" and now I know alot more about the tactics and why the "diablo" tactics work as they do

A very good thread!

[Ayanami80]

No, I think you seem show a poor knowledge about manage a team: a mister, a professional mister, tell as much as possible instructions to not left his (poor-level) players in ther mercy of their poor abilities.

If You don't tell to Pirlo/Lampard/CRonaldo what they must do, they are so intellingent that they KNOW what must do;

but if you don't tell any instruction to poor player, they CANNOT know how move in the pitch e what do with the ball.

The game of football is not made only by great players, but also great managers.

You and wwfan want FM determinated by only ingame players, but it's a tactical game. And you slowly want delete all the difficulty of the game, to make all win with all teams.

You do realise this is a "game" right? You, I, WWfan or anyone else in here have absolutely no idea how to manage a real football team. So stop with the personal sniping of other people with "well maybe you should go read some books on tactics." How in any way does this help this discussion other than making you look like a petulant child who can't get his cookies? How in any way does reading a book suddenly make you the great football manager. It's a damn game.

You're right, a poor player must be told what to do, and must be told simple things otherwise he won't have the tactical ability to pull it off. For some reason a bunch of you think that FM09 will become Fantasy Football 09, where you can have Ibrahimovic or Ronnie in your local street team. You also want to be able to have complete freedom over your players, like tell the RIGHT wingback to charge up to support the LEFT winger. Like I said before, if you want that sort of freedom in a game, try SIMS2. Yes I believe in control over a team, but I also accept that players sometimes will not listen to what a manager says and sometimes that can lead to a loss. If anything the FM series has gotten MORE difficult with time due to the more complex instructions you give, timing of team talks, board confidence etc etc.

[Ackter]

It's almost like you guys believe that arrows are the only instruction in FM08.

Without these arrows you feel like nothing you do will have any effect on the game. To be perfectly honest, it's because[/i] of arrows that these feelings have developed. If you've ever looked at a match and thought "what the hell is he doing?" chances are what he's doing is running like hell to get to a different position at the expense of tactuics and instructions.

Even playing FM08 without using arrows considerably improves the way matches play, and the results that are obtained. Now think that SI have spent months tuning the match engine to work without these arrows, so that players behave realistically in given situations.

In previous games, they didn't always behave realistically because they were following the arrows.

In FML and FM09+ you'll be able to get your players playing in a more realistic way, they will be following your instructions far more closely, your team will be performing far more like a real team - and all because arrows have been removed.

The old positional arrows gave you one very specific area of control, but took away a mass of different control while your players were following their arrows.

If you find you can't get your players behaving in the same way as before arrows were removed, it's because your base tactics were incredibly poor and only your arrows made it work. Now you'll have to concentrate on building a team and developing the right tactics to make it all work.

[nol]

I will try to make it as short and simple as possible I agree with Russian guys they are right about what they say. But I am not here to tell you ohh I agree with you I disagre with you I am here to just tell some basic things in Football. The problem of most of the people here in forumes they are dreams and not serious players they are fans. In real football in professional one the ARROWS or how you would like to call them are very very important to explain your player what to do. I been droped from first team to a bench with one coach simple because I would not follow the instructions but I was the best AMC in the team with the previous coach but the new one didn't like my freedom of choice so very quickly I got to the bench. Every coach has his owen way because he and only he is answering for the result not the players. There is more then 11 players in the team so if you can't follow basic instructions that he gives you who ever you will be most likely you will not start in starting 11. I can tell you a lot of teams who won a lot of things having 9 players strictly doing what the coach said as a ROBOT and only one creative player with free role. Arrows are very important because thats what you see before the match at the halt time and when players have the tactical education. Did anyone of you know that in Professional Football their is such a thing that players spent a lot of time with coach on tactics not on the field we all sit and watch how he drows and guess what he uses when he drows ARROWS. in clasical 4-4-2 formation which I played a lot of times I had 3 positions and I didn't told my coach you crazy or stuff like that. I was AMC but when we had the ball depending on the sircumstances of the attack and the possitions of other players I was becaming either the second striker the suporting one or the left M. There is no simple tactics thats only simply how players stand when the match begins after that most of them have 2 positions except goalies. Instead of removing arrows they could make it better when it would work much better because its important very important thing. And also for people against arrows and people who like arrows please go and watch this and let me know what you think about this.

http://www.uefa.com/trainingground/index.html#34002/128/519235

[Ackter]

Real life players do not behave in the same way as arrowed players in previous FM games behave.

[digsy11]

I will try to make it as short and simple as possible I agree with Russian guys they are right about what they say. But I am not here to tell you ohh I agree with you I disagre with you I am here to just tell some basic things in Football. The problem of most of the people here in forumes they are dreams and not serious players they are fans. In real football in professional one the ARROWS or how you would like to call them are very very important to explain your player what to do. I been droped from first team to a bench with one coach simple because I would not follow the instructions but I was the best AMC in the team with the previous coach but the new one didn't like my freedom of choice so very quickly I got to the bench. Every coach has his owen way because he and only he is answering for the result not the players. There is more then 11 players in the team so if you can't follow basic instructions that he gives you who ever you will be most likely you will not start in starting 11. I can tell you a lot of teams who won a lot of things having 9 players strictly doing what the coach said as a ROBOT and only one creative player with free role. Arrows are very important because thats what you see before the match at the halt time and when players have the tactical education. Did anyone of you know that in Professional Football their is such a thing that players spent a lot of time with coach on tactics not on the field we all sit and watch how he drows and guess what he uses when he drows ARROWS. in clasical 4-4-2 formation which I played a lot of times I had 3 positions and I didn't told my coach you crazy or stuff like that. I was AMC but when we had the ball depending on the sircumstances of the attack and the possitions of other players I was becaming either the second striker the suporting one or the left M. There is no simple tactics thats only simply how players stand when the match begins after that most of them have 2 positions except goalies. Instead of removing arrows they could make it better when it would work much better because its important very important thing. And also for people against arrows and people who like arrows please go and watch this and let me know what you think about this.

http://www.uefa.com/trainingground/index.html#34002/128/519235

Your point about ''depending on the circumstances'' is where the whole arrow argument is misunderstood.The way the arrows work in FM have no relevance to the ''circumstances in the game'' the player will move to the arrowed position whatever, taking no consideration to the flow of the match.

[nol]

Real life players do not behave in the same way as arrowed players in previous FM games behave.

right its a game so instead of removing arrows they could fix the problem with arrows and behavior not remove them. Its easy to get rid of something then to fix it. And next time please do not put one line answer read understand and say something different not repeat same stuff for 100 times like a ROBOT

[Ackter]

Removing them was the best way of fixing them.

[nol]

Your point about ''depending on the circumstances'' is where the whole arrow argument is misunderstood.The way the arrows work in FM have no relevance to the ''circumstances in the game'' the player will move to the arrowed position whatever, taking no consideration to the flow of the match.

Yes thats what I am talking about so why not fix the way arrows work instead of just simple removing them???

[digsy11]

Yes thats what I am talking about so why not fix the way arrows work instead of just simple removing them???

I did not know the problems with arrows untill I read this post.Although not a massive user of them in my tactics I removed the 2 I did use an the gameplay is so much better.I would suggest giving it a go (using WWFAN and ACKTERS' advice).It really does make a positive difference

[Ayanami80]

Yes thats what I am talking about so why not fix the way arrows work instead of just simple removing them???

Because the instructions will, to a degree, do what the arrows used to do. Also you had tactics where it appeared that the arrows and instructions contradicted one another. Removing them also gives players a sense that they do not have to rely on arrows to make tactics, rather, they need to think on a more tactical basis with regarding to creativity, off the ball, decision making etc etc as opposed to "drawing an arrow".

This has all been covered before.

[Ackter]

Really can't understand why you're having so much trouble grasping the idea that sometimes the best way to make something better is to completely throw it away and start again.

[nol]

Because the instructions will, to a degree, do what the arrows used to do. Also you had tactics where it appeared that the arrows and instructions contradicted one another. Removing them also gives players a sense that they do not have to rely on arrows to make tactics, rather, they need to think on a more tactical basis with regarding to creativity, off the ball, decision making etc etc as opposed to "drawing an arrow".

This has all been covered before.

so why don't they fix it so it will not contradict one to another

[digsy11]

Yes thats what I am talking about so why not fix the way arrows work instead of just simple removing them???

I don't know how much of this thread yo have read but I suggest reading all of WWFANS' posts, they are very revelling, helpful and easily understood

[digsy11]

Really can't understand why you're having so much trouble grasping the idea that sometimes the best way to make something better is to completely throw it away and start again.

People fear change mate, it's a natural reaction i suppose.

[Ackter]

so why don't they fix it so it will not contradict one to another

They have - and the fix involved removing them.

[nol]

I don't know how much of this thread yo have read but I suggest reading all of WWFANS' posts, they are very revelling, helpful nad easily understood

I read a lot but you did not read my post carefull enaugh they went the easy way they just removed it. I want you all understand one thing Transfer system is very poor and how many of you are sure it will be fixed in 2009 so lets remove them and leave it to the game to make the transfers of players you want easy right

[Ayanami80]

so why don't they fix it so it will not contradict one to another

Yes.

SI fixed it.

Do you want to know how they fixed it?

They removed the arrows so there is no contradiction any more.

How much simpler can I explain this?

[afeckingname]

People fear change mate, it's a natural reaction i suppose.

exactly, they would rather stay in bondage to them arrows than have tactical freedom without them. long live the revolution haha

[digsy11]

Ackter, from what I have read I take it you was also involved in removing these arrows?

[Ayanami80]

I read a lot but you did not read my post carefull enaugh they went the easy way they just removed it. I want you all understand one thing Transfer system is very poor and how many of you are sure it will be fixed in 2009 so lets remove them and leave it to the game to make the transfers of players you want easy right

It wasn't the "easy" way. It's a big change, a big big change. The arrow system has been in place for what? 4 years now? How is that the easy way? SI decided to give the tactics a big kick up the arse and change things. You make it sound like they rocked up to work one day and decided to delete arrows from their code. It's a big change, the length of this thread alone shows that.

In what way is the transfer system problem like the arrow system problem?

Are there misconceptions with the transfer system like there was with the arrow system?

Was there creation of weird tactical situations with the transfer system?

They are not the same problems, just because they are problems. Your argument is flawed.

[Ackter]

Yes I was involved and despite thinking it was a bad idea quickly saw what was possible.

I'm still holding out hope for the eventual inclusion of an individual width setting, but the removal of arrows has done far, far more good for the match engine than it has done bad.

[digsy11]

I read a lot but you did not read my post carefull enaugh they went the easy way they just removed it. I want you all understand one thing Transfer system is very poor and how many of you are sure it will be fixed in 2009 so lets remove them and leave it to the game to make the transfers of players you want easy right

Because people have been testing this ME via FML for months and the best solution was to bin them.It's the most testing the ME has ever EVER had.The transfer system does, I agree, need updating an I'm sure SI have done this but that is a topic for another thread.

[nol]

People fear change mate, it's a natural reaction i suppose.

I never fear of a change and I don't care every year I download the demo play it and decide if I want to buy the game or not because I play the game only for a pleasure in the end of the day its just a game for me for you maybe this is something you spend hours of your time for me its a game I just want to understand to way SI is moving because I got to play this game only because I saw something different in them then others like EA but they made they money and they became a big company you right things changed and not for the good

[jod123]

I read a lot but you did not read my post carefull enaugh they went the easy way they just removed it. I want you all understand one thing Transfer system is very poor and how many of you are sure it will be fixed in 2009 so lets remove them and leave it to the game to make the transfers of players you want easy right

That is different as they removed the arrows as the contradicted other instructions, people misunderstood them and there are better ways to implement them so the solution was to remove them.

Actually they did remove the transfer system anyway and replaced with a new one.

[digsy11]

Yes I was involved and despite thinking it was a bad idea quickly saw what was possible.

I'm still holding out hope for the eventual inclusion of an individual width setting, but the removal of arrows has done far, far more good for the match engine than it has done bad.

Out of interest, how long did it take you to come round to the idea of getting rid of them?

[Ackter]

It wasn't the "easy" way. It's a big change, a big big change. The arrow system has been in place for what? 4 years now? How is that the easy way? SI decided to give the tactics a big kick up the arse and change things. You make it sound like they rocked up to work one day and decided to delete arrows from their code. It's a big change, the length of this thread alone shows that.

In what way is the transfer system problem like the arrow system problem?

Are there misconceptions with the transfer system like there was with the arrow system?

Was there creation of weird tactical situations with the transfer system?

They are not the same problems, just because they are problems. Your argument is flawed.

Removing the arrows would have been easy, however the amount of work needed from then on to make the engine behave realistically, as opposed to robotically, was enormous.

It's not like they've removed the arrows and not touched the match engine since, which is what the original poster and his freinds clearly believe has happened.

[afeckingname]

I read a lot but you did not read my post carefull enaugh they went the easy way they just removed it. I want you all understand one thing Transfer system is very poor and how many of you are sure it will be fixed in 2009 so lets remove them and leave it to the game to make the transfers of players you want easy right

the transfer system has been rewrote as far as i know. to answer your arguement removing the arrows removed the problem. there wasn't any need or desire to re-work the arrows because the concept of the arrow was flawed to begin with, that is, the arrow system that was used was unnatural to football as it is played.

[paul andrew]

Well they have removed arrows from the match engine But what have they added well not much as far as i can see from the FM09 match engine match on FML are really boring to watch its all narrow short pasing massed midfield games.I perfer FM08 with arows there was a lot more player movment which made for a more exiting game to watch.

[digsy11]

I never fear of a change and I don't care every year I download the demo play it and decide if I want to buy the game or not because I play the game only for a pleasure in the end of the day its just a game for me for you maybe this is something you spend hours of your time for me its a game I just want to understand to way SI is moving because I got to play this game only because I saw something different in them then others like EA but they made they money and they became a big company you right things changed and not for the good

How do you know they've not been changed for the better (good)?

[Ackter]

Out of interest, how long did it take you to come round to the idea of getting rid of them?

Took me a few days to get the basics of an arrow-less tactic nailed down, and a few weeks to develop the nuances I now use.

[Ackter]

Well they have removed arrows from the match engine But what have they added well not much as far as i can see from the FM09 match engine match on FML are really boring to watch its all narrow short pasing massed midfield games.I perfer FM08 with arows there was a lot more player movment which made for a more exiting game to watch.

The 09 engine will have had months of development from the current one used in FML.

The narrow short passig midfield games are representative of a tactical trend in FML - it is currently going through its 451 variation cycle. In a few weeks people will start moving back to 442s and 4132s as they find them to be more effective against 451s.

Few weeks after that the tactical trends will change again - this is a cyclical phenomenon which has been happening right from the very beginning in FML, though has really come to the front since the removal of arrows and just goes to show how versatile the tactical side of the game has now become.

[digsy11]

Took me a few days to get the basics of an arrow-less tactic nailed down, and a few weeks to develop the nuances I now use.

Not long then.Did you rely heavily on arrows (in O8) before you tested FML?

[shevelevee]

Ackter, please, understand us. It's nice that you and wwfan after long time discover that old arrows don't work properly. Everybody know this. But we talk not about old arrows, we talk about decision to limit our (illusional or real) ability to manage the team tactics.

When you said "start again" - what did you mean? There are norhing, that was started again, simply destroy old arrows, and nothing was created instead of old arrows.

Understand, the correct results and correct view of the ME - aren't enough. We want adequate increasing of tactic control, not players, but manager nust decide, what players will do on the field.

And after 50 posts about this, where some english-speaking guys understand this, you can't understand. We all totally understnd what did you said about old arrows, and we totally agree, that old arrow's system must be reworked, but when you say about removing as the best idea - that seems like inlogicall.

2 Mitya

Если ты так хочешь знать, то мне 23 года. Приглашаю на FMFan.ru, там в спокойной обстановке я тебе расскажу свои остальные персональные данные, все, какие ты захочешь. Видимо, для тебя это важнее, чем предмет разговора.

[nol]

Took me a few days to get the basics of an arrow-less tactic nailed down, and a few weeks to develop the nuances I now use.

I enjoyed this game because when I use to buy it I would sit play and enjoy not spend hours of time and weeks just to get use to it and I think a lot of people bought the game for that reason

[Ackter]

Not long then.Did you rely heavily on arrows (in O8) before you tested FML?

Yes, in FML's early years I'd use a narrow formation with wide runs almost exclusively. Since their removal I've developed a massive array of different tactics as I've found new and better ways to have my team play as I want them too.

For example in FML my current team is built around two advanced wingers - and is reliant on their ability to cut inside when needed as well as run down the flanks (something which a few of the posters in this thread are adamant isn't possible).

[Cougar2010]

right its a game so instead of removing arrows they could fix the problem with arrows and behavior not remove them. Its easy to get rid of something then to fix it. And next time please do not put one line answer read understand and say something different not repeat same stuff for 100 times like a ROBOT

Interesting sentence that I've bolded, it could have easily have been said by either "camp"

Seriously nol your manager never asked you to run like a headless chicken between different positions on the pitch. I suspect you already knew this though and where bordering on trolling for a reaction again.

How difficult is it to understand :confused:

A) First we had arrows

B) Then we asked for instructions

C) The two conflicted so SI removed arrows

D) SI decides that they don't need to replace them because the instructions do the same job

E) We discuss if they do when the game is released on 14.11.08 and either:

(i) Accept SI were correct

or

(ii) Provide constructive feedback and suggest improvements for the next version

[digsy11]

I enjoyed this game because when I use to buy it I would sit play and enjoy not spend hours of time and weeks just to get use to it and I think a lot of people bought the game for that reason

How long do you play FM for? I don't mean in terms of hours a day but your usage of the game.For example I still play FM08 now a year after release.

[Ackter]

Ackter, please, understand us. It's nice that you and wwfan after long time discover that old arrows don't work properly. Everybody know this. But we talk not about old arrows, we talk about decision to limit our (illusional or real) ability to manage the team tactics.

When you said "start again" - what did you mean? There are norhing, that was started again, simply destroy old arrows, and nothing was created instead of old arrows.

Understand, the correct results and correct view of the ME - aren't enough. We want adequate increasing of tactic control, not players, but manager nust decide, what players will do on the field.

And after 50 posts about this, where some english-speaking guys understand this, you can't understand. We all totally understnd what did you said about old arrows, and we totally agree, that old arrow's system must be reworked, but when you say about removing as the best idea - that seems like inlogicall.

2 Mitya

Если ты так хочешь знать, то мне 23 года. Приглашаю на FMFan.ru, там в спокойной обстановке я тебе расскажу свои остальные персональные данные, все, какие ты захочешь. Видимо, для тебя это важнее, чем предмет разговора.

http://community.sigames.com/showpost.php?p=1819517&postcount=608

[nol]

How long do you play FM for? I don't mean in terms of hours a day but your usage of the game.For example I still play FM08 now a year after release.

last time played FM08 was 2 days ago

[digsy11]

Yes, in FML's early years I'd use a narrow formation with wide runs almost exclusively. Since their removal I've developed a massive array of different tactics as I've found new and better ways to have my team play as I want them too.

For example in FML my current team is built around two advanced wingers - and is reliant on their ability to cut inside when needed as well as run down the flanks (something which a few of the posters in this thread are adamant isn't possible).

Cool.So to everyone who reads this if you are heavily reliant on arrows it does not take long, or is difficult , to understand and implement new tactics without these bloody arrows.Thanks Ackter

[Ackter]

last time played FM08 was 2 days ago

When you first sat down with FM and CM did you know how everything worked or did you have to learn it?

[afeckingname]

Ackter, please, understand us. It's nice that you and wwfan after long time discover that old arrows don't work properly. Everybody know this. But we talk not about old arrows, we talk about decision to limit our (illusional or real) ability to manage the team tactics.

When you said "start again" - what did you mean? There are norhing, that was started again, simply destroy old arrows, and nothing was created instead of old arrows.

Understand, the correct results and correct view of the ME - aren't enough. We want adequate increasing of tactic control, not players, but manager nust decide, what players will do on the field.

And after 50 posts about this, where some english-speaking guys understand this, you can't understand. We all totally understnd what did you said about old arrows, and we totally agree, that old arrow's system must be reworked, but when you say about removing as the best idea - that seems like inlogicall.

2 Mitya

Если ты так хочешь знать, то мне 23 года. Приглашаю на FMFan.ru, там в спокойной обстановке я тебе расскажу свои остальные персональные данные, все, какие ты захочешь. Видимо, для тебя это важнее, чем предмет разговора.

player instructions will now i presume dictate what the arrows appeared to do before. it must be that way, i would doubt it very much if they removed the arrows and just left the engine as it was. your control of tactics will not be lost, your ability to make them happen may leave you in the dark though. but that is down to you as the USER ability to create a tactic, not the engine or the lack of arrows. if it is not that way i would be pretty mad myself but i am confident it will be like this.

[Ayanami80]

I enjoyed this game because when I use to buy it I would sit play and enjoy not spend hours of time and weeks just to get use to it and I think a lot of people bought the game for that reason

This is the kind of crap that makes me cranky.

You come here to a forum SI hosts and takes an active part in (much much much more so than any other game dev I've seen).

You get up on your soapbox and then blame SI for going the way of EA games and making their game "easier" to cater for the masses, by removing "arrows". In other words, you feel SI has "sold out".

Then you turn around and say, you just want a game you can sit down - play - enjoy, and not have to spend hours working out a tactics and weeks to get used to it.

SO WHICH ONE IS IT?

Stop being a damn hypocrite.

[Ackter]

player instructions will now i presume dictate what the arrows appeared to do before. it must be that way, i would doubt it very much if they removed the arrows and just left the engine as it was. your control of tactics will not be lost, your ability to make them happen may leave you in the dark though. but that is down to you as the USER ability to create a tactic, not the engine or the lack of arrows. if it is not that way i would be pretty mad myself but i am confident it will be like this.

No, the instructions will do what a lot of people assumed the arrows did before - it won't recreate what they actually did, because what they actually did was make players do unrealistic things.

The rest of your post is correct.