Open letter to SI: The Realism or Without Arrows

[Svenc]

Umm, his position?

Yeah, but as has been said, you can't really tweak those positions freely - there's only so many fixed positions you can drag&drop a player into on the tactics screen. For instance, imagine that you'd want your team to play a 4-4-2 with two defensive midfielders in the centre. Dropping the two into the fixed DM slots on the tactics screen lets them sit REAL deep with lots of space to explore in front of them by any opponent. Whereas if you put them in the Centre slots, they might not quite sit as deep as you want them to. And the only way to try to tweak that a little would be the mentality slider, which also affects quite a bit more than just positioning.

By the way, I think everything being discussed here are quite delicate issues. You can make a game more complicated to play easily -more sliders, more slider settings, more boxes to tick, more numbers, more statistics, what have you. Adding more *depth* is another thing altogether. Must be quite tricky to get that right.

[Dukesh]

Something about "unrealistic" arrows

[Samsung]

Sorry havent read every page in this topic but like in PES or whatever you can move your players to sit where they want. Like they can be DMC but placed on the field where you want them to be... Cant FM be like that?

[shevelevee]

you can only instruct player to try to move somewhere as much as possibile...

what do you mean with "somewhere".

Ov Collyer, PaulC, wwfan, Ackter

Can you describe, how can we ask in new improved and "really fantastic match engine" ask one player: "Man, when all team goes forward, please, move on right flang". I can only prevent your misunderstooding - this is not "Man, when all team goes forward, please, run forward and feel free to do all that you want."

[TriAn]

But one of your major criticisms of the weakness of FM08's ME was the transition stage.

Once again I had to repeat that I said “with or without arrows”. )

The arrows were the reason. So, now you are beginning to see the intractability of the problem we faced. How to make the football and tactics more realistic for everyone?

I can agree only if “arrows” in this case mean the method of realization because I donn’t see nothing bad in idea which they were representing.

The key was in getting rid of the rigid functionality of the the arrows, so they had to go.

This isn’t very obvious logical construction. What if I’ll ask you whether you tried to make functionality of the arrows flexible and realistic? I’m almost confident that the answer will be “no”.

It wasn't stupid in intention. I don't believe SI ever foresaw users seeing arrows as the most fundamental element of tactical design.

But arrows were the “most fundamental element of tactical design” because they have appeared much earlier than sliders. )

That they did, and that their function was commonly misperceived, is, undoubtedly, mainly SI's fault. They underestimated the creativity of the user base and failed to provide adequate documentation explaining how tactics worked. Hopefully, better documentation will be a prime objective for FM09.

It pleases. Now it will not be nessesary to spend hours and hours to understand how things working.

If you only used arrows in the manner of the AI, the distortion was minor. However, the more non-AI type arrows you used, the greater the distortion.

There is no doubt about distortion. Key word was “why”.

I would never have picked up on it, nor the reasons for it, had I not played FML. It would be impossible to do so without seeing how heavy arrowed tactics actually worked and seeing arrowed player movement on screen. With position changes in the attacking phase, I agree that teams do change shape. However, this has to be fluid and not pre-determined. It just wasn't with arrows.

Once again arrows in itself are just visual representation of idea. They are not defining the method of realization of idea. I think it can be fluid with them or not fluid without them, depends on the method of realization. )

You can still achieve changes of shape, but fluidly and realistically. I remember playing my first FML game against Millie after I had added him to the Beta and he couldn't believe I was using a 4-4-2 as the movement in possession made it look somewhere between a 3-2-2-3 and a 2-3-1-4, depending on which flank the build up play came from.

This is nice but some things require diagonal transformations. I don’t see how it can be possible only with FR.

It wasn't bad realisation. That's how arrows were supposed to work.

I.e. they were made for “robotical unrealistic runs” (this is not my words and there was something about chickens, I don’t want to repeat it ). Ten years all knew this and only now have paid attention.

They might have been a bad idea from the start, but the realisation of the idea was perfect.

I’ll not get tired to repeat that arrows are not idea itself. They are only representation of idea and etc.

Then here we are moving into an area in which I believe your tactical settings are not ideal in other areas, because I believe the transtition phase in an arrowless FM08 tactic is fine. It needs tweaking, but it works well enough.

Of course. Nothing is ideal. )

Now I have to surrender. Simply I wasn’t clever enough to build counterattacking tactics in 6 months time.

But 'reworked forward runs' have been reworked to aid the transition phase. That's the entire point of the rework. Again, it looks to me here you are just complaining about the loss of specified direction running, which is where I have already agreed you have a point. My disagreement is that the arrows never did this either.

There is small misunderstanding. My paragraph quoted by you wasn’t about directional running which, I agree, arrows never did (but with some use of alchemy and dark magic it was possible to construct something look alike ). It was about difference in purposes of FR and attacking formation. And it was about wrong timing and method of transformation to attacking formation.

This is an area in which I am still happily open to debate. Personally, I think a good manager has to recognise player limitations and abilities and be able to shape his tactical preferences around them. That seems to be the way SI are going, especially with the PPM Training option. However, I can also accept that a manager should be able to try and ask a player to do something of which he is not capable and fall flat on his face. However, is the direction of a run really one of them? I'm not sure?

“When a counter attack team regains possession of the ball, certain players will run set patterns (pattern play) so the counter attack will be succesful and can be performed at a high tempo.” Rinus Michels.

Are you still not sure? )

There I must to clear things up.

"Specified direction running" (as you called it) is more common in counterattacks. Of course counterattack may be performed without it.

"Specified direction running" in counterattack is not the same thing as transformation from defensive formation to attacking one. Not each transition from defence to attack is performed as counterattack.

Now the problem is that to play in a certain position, say as a central midfielder, requires a certain awareness, reading of the game etc. which would be somewhat different than for, say a right winger. Effectively the arrows were telling a player to assume a different role often multiple times within a short space of time and no player on earth (apart from Maradona perhaps!) would be smart enough in real-life to constantly make this adjustment like that "I'm a central midfielder...I'm a right winger...No I'm a central midfielder again...get me out of here" etc.

"I don't like players having positions. There is no such thing as a striker, a midfielder, a defender. There are only footballers and they should be able to do everything on the pitch." Valeri Lobanovsky.

[PaulC]

"I don't like players having positions. There is no such thing as a striker, a midfielder, a defender. There are only footballers and they should be able to do everything on the pitch."

Valeri Lobanovsky.

Dont get me wrong, Lobanovsky was a pioneer and someone who influenced the original wibble wobble feature in CM.

But to base a game, and all its research on his ideas isnt practical.

[PaulC]

Sorry havent read every page in this topic but like in PES or whatever you can move your players to sit where they want. Like they can be DMC but placed on the field where you want them to be... Cant FM be like that?

Its a nice idea, but I think its generally only visual....I cant see how you could code it without opening up all sorts of problems. And when does one position become another?

Always remember that games like PES are 5 minute each way sims..........

[TriAn]

Dont get me wrong, Lobanovsky was a pioneer and someone who influenced the original wibble wobble feature in CM.

But to base a game, and all its research on his ideas isnt practical.

There is very little similar between ideas of Lobanovsky and wibble wobble system. I can not take it seriously. )

"In Total Football, a player who moves out of his position is replaced by another from his team, thus retaining the team's intended organizational structure. In this fluid system, no player is fixed in his nominal role; anyone can be successively an attacker, a midfielder and a defender."

All modern football is based on ideas of total football and players universalization.

Does "isn't practical" mean "the simpler the better and we don't want to do complicated things because it's difficult and they are too complicated"?

[PaulC]

"isnt practical" means we don't think it is practical, obviously within the parameters of what we are trying to do and the tools we have to do it

Doesnt stop someone else doing it though

[TriAn]

Thanks a lot.

This explains much more than hundreds of repetitions of word "unrealistic".

Good luck and good bye.

[PaulC]

I don't think there is much more we can say to people beyond "try the demo" in regards to this thread.

Look, we could have decided to keep the old arrows, and recode the way they worked. But we didn't, because we felt that the simplicity of removing them didnt come at a price in terms of playing the game. At the same time, for example, perhaps the new style arrows but with directional control could be worth considering for a future release that would add more realistic options for the manager. There are various ways we could go. But in terms of FM2009, we are where we are. I am really really comfortable with the decision we have made, and am confident that most people on here will be too once they have given it a go.

[Mitja]

Thanks a lot.

This explains much more than hundreds of repetitions of word "unrealistic".

Good luck and good bye.

so you still think arrows should have stayed? or at least reworked?

[grokkk]

so you still think arrows should have stayed? or at least reworked?

second one

[grokkk]

I don't think there is much more we can say to people beyond "try the demo" in regards to this thread.

Look, we could have decided to keep the old arrows, and recode the way they worked. But we didn't, because we felt that the simplicity of removing them didnt come at a price in terms of playing the game. At the same time, for example, perhaps the new style arrows but with directional control could be worth considering for a future release that would add more realistic options for the manager. There are various ways we could go. But in terms of FM2009, we are where we are. I am really really comfortable with the decision we have made, and am confident that most people on here will be too once they have given it a go.

thx a lot 4this answer:thup:

[Serdar]

There is very little similar between ideas of Lobanovsky and wibble wobble system. I can not take it seriously. )

"In Total Football, a player who moves out of his position is replaced by another from his team, thus retaining the team's intended organizational structure. In this fluid system, no player is fixed in his nominal role; anyone can be successively an attacker, a midfielder and a defender."

All modern football is based on ideas of total football and players universalization.

Does "isn't practical" mean "the simpler the better and we don't want to do complicated things because it's difficult and they are too complicated"?

As good as it may work in real game, I would not like this in FM. I dont want my players in FM to be so smart that they can even fill in the gaps in my tactic. I want to manage my team and I want my players do and only do what I can instruct them to do in the game, even if it means I will lose most games. The worst feeling I will have in FM or in any other simulation game taking many hours is; when it feels like the game is doing what it does regardless to my input. For the case of FM I want to feel proud for each win and responsible for each defeat.

[Samsung]

Its a nice idea, but I think its generally only visual....I cant see how you could code it without opening up all sorts of problems. And when does one position become another?

Always remember that games like PES are 5 minute each way sims..........

Yeah I have no idea about all that complex mumbo jumbo code stuff... I was just thinking

like the players do exactly the same thing, however say for example the distance that they

have between the MC and the DC is shortened or lengthened when they just standing to defend...

Does that make sense? Some teams like to have it really tight, so the gap between the mids and

the back 4 is really small, or other teams a bit more room etc... Like I think as it is now when you

have a DMC he seems to lie soo deep and the gap between the DM and FC is soo far... Not that

its a big of a deal I guess.. Ty anyways!!

[Svenc]

Does that make sense? Some teams like to have it really tight, so the gap between the mids and

the back 4 is really small, or other teams a bit more room etc... Like I think as it is now when you

have a DMC he seems to lie soo deep and the gap between the DM and FC is soo far... Not that

its a big of a deal I guess..

Plentyful space to explore in front of your DM™ (as defined by FMs fixed slots) ain't no big deal? Dunno, man. In the scenario I posted above I usually don't put my DMs into those slots, I just put them centre. The gap's far too wide, they'd just sit a couple of inches in front of the centre backs, and that's just not practical, unless you're employing a rather defensive system anyhow. I mean, it works that way, but there's no way to really try to tweak that. It's alright I guess, and don't get me wrong, I DIG the match engine, but it's something I noticed pretty early on when I started playing FM for the first time last year.

On a similar topic, I dunno if this has been asked before, but there are games that would sort of artificially lessen a players stats if you played him out of position (that is, a "fixed slot" clearly defined by the game as that position) - is this the case for FM? Say, you're placing a natural DM in the centre position, rather than just that spot away from your centre backs - is there any rather artifical weakening of a players strenghts going on, desperately trying to represent that he ain't playing in his "natural position"?

[isuckatfm]

On a similar topic, I dunno if this has been asked before, but there are games that would sort of artificially lessen a players stats if you played him out of position (that is, a "fixed slot" clearly defined by the game as that position) - is this the case for FM? Say, you're placing a natural DM in the centre position, rather than just that spot away from your centre backs - is there any rather artifical weakening of a players strenghts going on, desperately trying to represent that he ain't playing in his "natural position"?

I know you're probably hoping for an official SI avatar response but I would assume so as without an effect the positional ratings would be nothing more than superficial. At a guess I would say mental attributes take a hit. For example a player who can dribble can do so regardless of where he is on the pitch but place a natural DM into CB and his positional sense might not be so hot like Essien for Chelsea last season (hence his attribute gets reduced relative to his CB rating thus a DM with positioning 20 won't play like a CB with positioning 20 if played as a CB, ignoring other attribute effects for simplicity).

Wild speculation but there you go. What else is the internet for?

[Leroy1883]

I agree total football as a concept does not work in FM.

However this is not the same as being able to instruct a weaksided wing in a 3-4-3 for example to move into a deep position on his flank when in the defensive phase.

Another example is when playing against an opponents 4-3-3 system being able to instruct both side midfielders of your 4-4-2 to move into the center of the field in the defensive phase to create a 4 v 3 situation in the central midfield area. I cannot use width here as when I am in possession I want my side midfielder wide to exploit their systems weakness of only having a fullback defend the flanks.

The mentality slider simulates positioning of players in both phases of possession, but being able to organise teams to in both phases is what a coach needs to be able to define or else we are effectively deferring the planning to the players (the match engine).

So what is needed to organise my team effectively?

The ability to distingish between the defensive and attacking phases of the game.

The ability to determine the position of the ball on the pitch.

Or we could defer the decisions to the match engine.

I appreciate its not going to change for FM'09 and that is fine, but please take a step back and try to look at the system with fresh eyes.

P.S - if anyone can solve my examples using the current system then please let me know how to do it and I will take it all back.

[joepublic]

Hi Leroy, would specific man marking their side MCs with your ML/R work for the 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3 case? I haven't tried that particular setup myself, but from what I see when I have my FCs man mark a DM or MCd it seems that the specific man marking sort of works like an arrow with my FCs rushing back to pick up their man when we lose the ball, actually it seemed a bit too effective at times because they were performing almost perfect marking while having quite a low marking rating.

Of course that doesn't help if you want to play zonal marking. Perhaps a solution for a future game could be having the ability to assign players a specific zone to cover in an analogous way to how specific man marking works, so the ML by default covers the ML zone, but you have a drop down menu where you can choose another zone like the MC zone, and perhaps have each zone split into smaller pieces to give more control over defensive width and depth. I dunno, it might be impractical to code, but I thought I'd put it out there.

[Samsung]

I thought if a guy was playing out of position it would just mean he was going to have less chance to play well...

Like just because, lets say Steven Gerrard plays CF doesnt mean all of a sudden Hogwarts style his mental attributes

will drop, it would just mean he is more awkward, maybe a little off the pace of the game etc and he might acutally score

9 goals for all we know, but just the odds of it happen drops right... That would make much more sense, surely the game

would just all of a sudden drop his stats but somehow understand he is limited in playing style etc etc...

[Leroy1883]

Hi Leroy, would specific man marking their side MCs with your ML/R work for the 4-4-2 vs 4-3-3 case? I haven't tried that particular setup myself, but from what I see when I have my FCs man mark a DM or MCd it seems that the specific man marking sort of works like an arrow with my FCs rushing back to pick up their man when we lose the ball, actually it seemed a bit too effective at times because they were performing almost perfect marking while having quite a low marking rating.

Of course that doesn't help if you want to play zonal marking. Perhaps a solution for a future game could be having the ability to assign players a specific zone to cover in an analogous way to how specific man marking works, so the ML by default covers the ML zone, but you have a drop down menu where you can choose another zone like the MC zone, and perhaps have each zone split into smaller pieces to give more control over defensive width and depth. I dunno, it might be impractical to code, but I thought I'd put it out there.

Hey Joe how's it going?

Specific Man-marking is the closest thing you can get to it in the current tactical interface, but it is tedious because you have to set it up each game and if the players change and as you correctly pointed out I want to play a 4-4-2 by zone.

My main point is about tactical depth within the game. Its these kind of little things that a manager does to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition players\system.

Its about having a system that rewards well thought-out footballing logic.

[joepublic]

Hey Joe how's it going?

Specific Man-marking is the closest thing you can get to it in the current tactical interface, but it is tedious because you have to set it up each game and if the players change and as you correctly pointed out I want to play a 4-4-2 by zone.

My main point is about tactical depth within the game. Its these kind of little things that a manager does to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition players\system.

Its about having a system that rewards well thought-out footballing logic.

Yeah I definitely agree with you here a lot of these smaller things that a real manager can do to try and outmanouver the opposition seems to be out of our control on FM at the moment. Plus only having the one screen to represent all areas of the pitch does I think take away from tactical depth and flexibility and makes it more about the bigger overall decisions like whether to play an overall attacking or defensive tactic, as opposed to exactly how you achieve this section by section, which I think is just as important.

[Mitja]

I agree total football as a concept does not work in FM.

However this is not the same as being able to instruct a weaksided wing in a 3-4-3 for example to move into a deep position on his flank when in the defensive phase.

Another example is when playing against an opponents 4-3-3 system being able to instruct both side midfielders of your 4-4-2 to move into the center of the field in the defensive phase to create a 4 v 3 situation in the central midfield area. I cannot use width here as when I am in possession I want my side midfielder wide to exploit their systems weakness of only having a fullback defend the flanks.

The mentality slider simulates positioning of players in both phases of possession, but being able to organise teams to in both phases is what a coach needs to be able to define or else we are effectively deferring the planning to the players (the match engine).

So what is needed to organise my team effectively?

The ability to distingish between the defensive and attacking phases of the game.

The ability to determine the position of the ball on the pitch.

Or we could defer the decisions to the match engine.

I appreciate its not going to change for FM'09 and that is fine, but please take a step back and try to look at the system with fresh eyes.

P.S - if anyone can solve my examples using the current system then please let me know how to do it and I will take it all back.

nice one.

i'm not totally sure, but in many posts of wwfan i read, i think he was explaining such example, or very similar. he said that defensive awerness is much improved now and that players will pick other opponent players than just direct opponents. this probably means wingers will try to help MC's in your example.

PS sorry for bad english

[Joor]

I know you're probably hoping for an official SI avatar response but I would assume so as without an effect the positional ratings would be nothing more than superficial. At a guess I would say mental attributes take a hit. For example a player who can dribble can do so regardless of where he is on the pitch but place a natural DM into CB and his positional sense might not be so hot like Essien for Chelsea last season (hence his attribute gets reduced relative to his CB rating thus a DM with positioning 20 won't play like a CB with positioning 20 if played as a CB, ignoring other attribute effects for simplicity).

Wild speculation but there you go. What else is the internet for?

After testing this in FML (20 games or so) , I can tell you that player position is not important - all that matters are attributes.

My left back, with good technique, dribbling and passing was playing as left wing and never got a rating lower than 6.3 - highest was 8.5 in a game where he scored a longshot and had 12 dribbles !

Players position only determine which attributes he will improve in over the years ( remember the long research thread ?)

[Leroy1883]

nice one.

i'm not totally sure, but in many posts of wwfan i read, i think he was explaining such example, or very similar. he said that defensive awerness is much improved now and that players will pick other opponent players than just direct opponents. this probably means wingers will try to help MC's in your example.

PS sorry for bad english

Hi Mitja,

I think that you are probably right and that defensive awareness is better.

However this decision is still being deferred to the players (match engine).

I could have easily decided that rather than bring both wings inside in the defensive phase it would be better to bring only the left lateral midfielder inside and shift a forward down field to create superiority in the ball zone, possibly because the oppositions central defensive pairing were outwitting my forwards or to allow my pacy right lateral midfielder freedom from defensive duties ready to exploit his slow opponent when we countered.

As the manager it should be my call not the players. My instructions are the guidelines, but the players have to make decisions that are influence by these guidelines as well as a host of other factors.

I totally respect the fact that this may be to much realism\depth from what people want out of FM, but I feel it is valuable to explain the difference between not having the level of influence I would like as a virtual coach, but I still believe that this could be done in a intuative way.

[Svenc]

After testing this in FML (20 games or so) , I can tell you that player position is not important - all that matters are attributes.

My left back, with good technique, dribbling and passing was playing as left wing and never got a rating lower than 6.3 - highest was 8.5 in a game where he scored a longshot and had 12 dribbles !

Players position only determine which attributes he will improve in over the years ( remember the long research thread ?)

That would be an interesting observation. If there was any weakening of a player's stats going on (decreasing of some mental stats sounds logical though), that would further add to couple issues at hand. Remember: I'm playing my DMs as CMs (as defined by the tactics screen). Sure, you could ask me why I wouldn't want to play natural CMs and slot them there. The reason is that I want two rather defensive midfielders in the centre who would act as safeguards and do the work load - recapturing the ball and so on. And the natural DMs I possess have way better stats and physical attributes for duties at hand. Hopefully those don't increase just because I'm playing them a few metres away from their "natural position".

Um, in an attempt to return this to its original topic, arrows and all, I've been wondering why my two "wingers" would act as strikers in this case. Mind you, I've been playing this basic formation for a couple of seasons already, but judging from the tactics screen, you'd think both Farfan and Sosa would stay in line with Schweinsteiger, but alas they don't. They're pretty much staying upfront the whole game, and this has naught to do with the mentality you are meant to tweak their positioning with. Nor the "forward runs" setting.

[MSCCG]

That would be an interesting observation. If there was any weakening of a player's stats going on (decreasing of some mental stats sounds logical though), that would further add to couple issues at hand. Remember: I'm playing my DMs as CMs (as defined by the tactics screen). Sure, you could ask me why I wouldn't want to play natural CMs and slot them there. The reason is that I want two rather defensive midfielders in the centre who would act as safeguards and do the work load - recapturing the ball and so on. And the natural DMs I possess have way better stats and physical attributes for duties at hand. Hopefully those don't increase just because I'm playing them a few metres away from their "natural position".

Um, in an attempt to return this to its original topic, arrows and all, I've been wondering why my two "wingers" would act as strikers in this case. Mind you, I've been playing this basic formation for a couple of seasons already, but judging from the tactics screen, you'd think both Farfan and Sosa would stay in line with Schweinsteiger, but alas they don't. They're pretty much staying upfront the whole game, and this has naught to do with the mentality you are meant to tweak their positioning with. Nor the "forward runs" setting.

So what settings are they on then? I'd be interested to see some in-game screen shots if you haven't posted some already before.

That's a very beautiful skin btw, what is it?

[Ryan.Rfc]

!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! if there aint going to be any arrows in the football manager 09 which other option or way can you tell your player to run up the wing just like gael clichy and bakary sagna for arsenal type of wing back play and how would you tell your right midfeilder to cut inside and you central midfeilder to drop back as a defensive midfeilder or support the attack by running into an attacking midfeiler position ?? will there be a feature to do this but just not with the arrows ?? if you want the game to be real it has to have some kind of feature similar to this !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ryan.Rfc]

jut say your playing a flat 4-4-2 and you want 1 of your central midfeilders (gerrard) to support the attack as an attacking midfeilder and your other central midfeilder (xabi alonso) to drop back and support the defense as a defensife midfelider how would you do that ? in real life you can have a tactic for when you have got the ball and when you have not got the ball.it just needs more thought......................plus all this crap about players tiring you dont see russias wing backs ankukov and zhirkov tiring and all they do is blast up the wings same for arsenals wing back and patrice evra for man u they can run up the wings all day !

[Ryan.Rfc]

and just say messi for example he runs/cuts inside plays a pass or shoots and ryan giggs runs up the byline and puts a cross in so how would you define making a run or making a forward run compared to make a run and cut inside or make a run down the byline take on the left back and get a cross in

[Masenyah]

jut say your playing a flat 4-4-2 and you want 1 of your central midfeilders (gerrard) to support the attack as an attacking midfeilder and your other central midfeilder (xabi alonso) to drop back and support the defense as a defensife midfelider how would you do that ? in real life you can have a tactic for when you have got the ball and when you have not got the ball.it just needs more thought......................plus all this crap about players tiring you dont see russias wing backs ankukov and zhirkov tiring and all they do is blast up the wings same for arsenals wing back and patrice evra for man u they can run up the wings all day !

Common sense: Give Gerard a high mentality and set run forward to often. Give Alonso a more defensive mentality and set run forward to rarely (or mixed). Voila, problem solved.

[Masenyah]

and just say messi for example he runs/cuts inside plays a pass or shoots and ryan giggs runs up the byline and puts a cross in so how would you define making a run or making a forward run compared to make a run and cut inside or make a run down the byline take on the left back and get a cross in

This is Simple: Messi is a left-footed right-winger and Giggs is a left-footed left-winger. Therefore Messi's natural motion takes him inside and Giggs' takes him down the line. Ideally the FM ME would reproduce this, but in 08 it really didn't, hopefully 09 does.

[shevelevee]

Let's come back to this thread)))

Can somebody explain me, what will do Gerrard on the field? I've just try to use farrow...

[legend_killer82]

very very sad and bad we got taken off our arrows to make players move exactly where we wanted to...if i'm playing with messi on the left side as attacking midfielder now i can't put him to run and move to the center but just run forward as a wing...that kinda sucks

[isuckatfm]

Are you referring to the left pane showing FWR rarely and the right pane showing FWR often?

That happens to me if I use the arrow keys to move a slider on either side.

If I hover the mouse over the slider, hold to get the hand to turn to a 'grab' icon and drag, then the sliders change simultaneously.

[shevelevee]

Are you referring to the left pane showing FWR rarely and the right pane showing FWR often?

No, I've just use my mouse and arrow tool on position screen. Now Gerrard have farrow on this screen.

[wwfan]

very very sad and bad we got taken off our arrows to make players move exactly where we wanted to...if i'm playing with messi on the left side as attacking midfielder now i can't put him to run and move to the center but just run forward as a wing...that kinda sucks

When I linked you to the thread I expected you to at least try and read it rather than post the same thing again, almost word for word, on page 10. I linked you here because, despite the huge disagreements, there was a lot of useful information in it.

However, unsubstantiated opinion is extremely fashionable, so.....

[legend_killer82]

wwfan exactly cause i read it i'm even more disappointed and i let it know to those who can change it...if my opinion was that it isn't changed at all after i read this so why shouldn't i let it know?...then i probably won't be taken in consideration but i' m still free to say my opinion am i not?

[isuckatfm]

No, I've just use my mouse and arrow tool on position screen. Now Gerrard have farrow on this screen.

I see now. It's a delay in updating the left panel.

1. Use left click to add arrows/forward runs on formation panel

2. Slider in left panel does not update to match instantaneously

3. Click away from the tactics screen, for example click on a player's profile

4. When you return to the tactics screen the left side slider will have updated to reflect the arrow in the formation screen

One for the bugs forum methinks.

[shevelevee]

Very good start in tactic screen for me, thanks)

[wwfan]

wwfan exactly cause i read it i'm even more disappointed and i let it know to those who can change it...if my opinion was that it isn't changed at all after i read this so why shouldn't i let it know?...then i probably won't be taken in consideration but i' m still free to say my opinion am i not?

Mate, I owned my own communications company for 6 years and wrote speed-reading courses. I have a reading speed of 2,000 words a minute when pushed, and I couldn't come close to reading and understanding the 10 pages of this thread in 13 minutes. As the average first-language speaker reads at about 180-220 wpm, I am hard pressed to believe you read it all.

[legend_killer82]

why should i read it all, 10 pages of comments when what i wanted to know is if it was a bug or a wanted thing? despise of all can i have MY opinion and bring it on? u might not be sharing it and i understand but since i'm playing this game since i was like a child, can't remember if it was cm92/93 or so and bought the game every year and every single edition i feel free to let know my opinion. That's it. So stop attacking and trying to be smart with all your maths equations about time...i see you are good at it but my opinion isn't changed. It's just like if you like a player, a colour or anything else...people can say millions of things but in your mind if you like messi or the black colour(just for an example) you will respect their opinions but still like it no matter what other people says about it...called own opinion

[shevelevee]

Just try to ask my ML help DMC when we are without ball. That's impossible. During 7 games ML robotically move only forward and backward. I've try to play with Width slider, with his mentality, forward runs, creative freedom, free role, and with other sliders but...

[anth]

So they've removed the arrows but there's no "cut inside" option or "cover flanks" option for centre backs or "cover inside" option for full backs? That's very disappointing, when they removed wibble wobble they brought in a whole raft of options to replace it. How am I supposed to do my Ajax/England Euro 96 formation now? The gaps will be too big in defence between the full backs and single central defender (or just 3 central defenders depending which way you want to do it) to make it viable now. I always had a winger on one side cutting in towards the central striker role - that's not unrealistic.

[legend_killer82]

so i see i'm not the only one thinking the exact way u do anth...such a big limitation is kinda big disappointment, i was all excited at first when i was trying the demo but as i got to the match and to the tactics screen and tried to make my right wing run to the center or some other players cut inside and i couldn't...got very disappointed

[MSCCG]

Just try to ask my ML help DMC when we are without ball. That's impossible. During 7 games ML robotically move only forward and backward. I've try to play with Width slider, with his mentality, forward runs, creative freedom, free role, and with other sliders but...

I think I know how to do that without sliders actually:

try closing down more and lower mentality (if you keep forward runs often then they will be attacking but start running from deeper)

So they've removed the arrows but there's no "cut inside" option or "cover flanks" option for centre backs or "cover inside" option for full backs? That's very disappointing, when they removed wibble wobble they brought in a whole raft of options to replace it. How am I supposed to do my Ajax/England Euro 96 formation now? The gaps will be too big in defence between the full backs and single central defender (or just 3 central defenders depending which way you want to do it) to make it viable now. I always had a winger on one side cutting in towards the central striker role - that's not unrealistic.

Wingers cutting inside is easy to do in the game, it's the weird tactics i.e. Russia Euro08 that are hard to replicate; for cutting in just do: crossing rarely, forward run often, (maybe) run with ball often.

The AI in the match engine has been improved so much this time around, I am thoroughly enjoying the tactical side of the game.

Legendkiller: how are you supposed to get anywhere at all when you already assume your opinion can't be changed? How hypocritical is it of you to tell other people to respect your opinion when your own opinion on this matter is based on you ignoring other people's opinion?

[legend_killer82]

i'm not ignoring them, besides i'm not the one who should ignore or not opinions as i'm not a Sports Interactive employers who can change things in the game but an hardcore players of them, and i just have MY OWN opinion and feeling about it so i let it know...that's it, nothing more nothing less.

[shevelevee]

I think I know how to do that without sliders actually:

try closing down more and lower mentality (if you keep forward runs often then they will be attacking but start running from deeper)

Sorry, but you don't understand me, I think. I don't want to ask my ML to go on WBL position. That's easy. I need one man near my DMC, and I want to ask my ML to go on this position. But I can't, as I see. May be there are some strange way (find ML with PPM like "goes to dmc position whenever possible"), but this is not football. This is paranormal.

[MSCCG]

Sorry, but you don't understand me, I think. I don't want to ask my ML to go on WBL position. That's easy. I need one man near my DMC, and I want to ask my ML to go on this position. But I can't, as I see. May be there are some strange way (find ML with PPM like "goes to dmc position whenever possible"), but this is not football. This is paranormal.

Oh, didn't realize that by "helping out" you meant actually go to his position. What the instructions I gave should do is help out defensively more than usual and close down further which would(I hope) bring him in-field, but not WB...

Would man-marking their CM or AM help?