Pep's Barcelona (Very Fluid)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Ah, yes. That's a pretty rare instance Iniesta and Messi are that narrow. They've got a pretty wide range of movement when you watch the play:

 

 

[yonko]

My man, top top thread once again. IMO you have the best threads the last couple of years on these Forums. At least I enjoy them the most. Maybe because I share a lot of your philosophies about the game (the real one and the simulated one).

In this case what impresses me the most and what you have shown with a save playing as the best team, is the specific tailoring/development of players into a very specific way of playing and in the process making some very unorthodox decisions, obviously making them work. I don't think I've seen anyone else do that to such an extent. So big congrats for that. I hope this is very inspirational to everyone else, as it is to me.

I may be biased but I also think that Pep's Barca was the best team I've ever seen. (And I'm old enough to remember Sacchi's Milan) I've been spoiled ever since in terms of watching quality football on TV. I'm anxious to see what he builds at Man City. I like the offense there but he needs more intelligent defenders for sure. 

[BadAss88]

Yet again you give me lots of inspiration to try some things out myself..I was already thinking to use the WB-strata instead of FB-strata..but I would like to use the ST-strata rather then the SS-role, which role would you use then? F9 are a role with an attacking duty?

[yonko]

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

I'm curious regarding your Team Instructions, more specifically about not selecting some of them that I've always thought are essential to replicating Guardiola's style. Thus I wanted to ask you about your thoughts behind opting not go with Prevent Short GK Distribution, Use Tighter Marking and Use Offside Trap. The first two I feel help with the pressing and regaining the ball, while the last one compliments the pressing side of the tactic. But I'm curious what do you think about it?

In addition, I also want to know why you skipped on Work Ball Into Box and Dribble Less? Granted, they make the possession side of the tactic more extreme and perhaps they can be situational instructions (to keep a lead/good result/shut up shop). Is that the reason for omitting them?

From the two videos you posted, I can see how devastating the SS is and I can see how he thrives off through balls from pretty much everyone else around/behind him. Even the DLP (Iniesta) plays plenty of very well timed through passes for teammates. And that is without Pass Into Space TI. In fact all the highlights show very well timed passing patterns of play and against another top quality side like Real Madrid. This is what the combination of technique, passing, first touch, anticipation, composure, decisions and vision leads to.

[tyler16]

This thread inspired me to watch Barca's 5-0 win over Real Madrid in full for the first time as I got into football big in 2011-2012.

I'm blown away. The best team and performance I've ever seen.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

 

Edited February 28, 2017 by Ö-zil to the Arsenal!
Duplicate.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

8 hours ago, yonko said:

My man, top top thread once again. IMO you have the best threads the last couple of years on these Forums. At least I enjoy them the most. Maybe because I share a lot of your philosophies about the game (the real one and the simulated one).

In this case what impresses me the most and what you have shown with a save playing as the best team, is the specific tailoring/development of players into a very specific way of playing and in the process making some very unorthodox decisions, obviously making them work. I don't think I've seen anyone else do that to such an extent. So big congrats for that. I hope this is very inspirational to everyone else, as it is to me.

I may be biased but I also think that Pep's Barca was the best team I've ever seen. (And I'm old enough to remember Sacchi's Milan) I've been spoiled ever since in terms of watching quality football on TV. I'm anxious to see what he builds at Man City. I like the offense there but he needs more intelligent defenders for sure. 

Thank you very much. Taking a top club and creating something is a different type of challenge. I like that trophies and accolades stop becoming the measure of success - as you're going to win them anyway, most likely - but instead looking as what's going on on-the-field which is all too often overlooked, and creating something beautiful.

Man City is interesting. I just hope they give him enough time. Was a concerning patch a few weeks ago when cracks started to show. The media mauled him. It was always going to take longer than a season here. Yes, Conte's turned it around in a season but - whilst it's winning football - it's pretty tough to watch.

 

8 hours ago, BadAss88 said:

Yet again you give me lots of inspiration to try some things out myself..I was already thinking to use the WB-strata instead of FB-strata..but I would like to use the ST-strata rather then the SS-role, which role would you use then? F9 are a role with an attacking duty?

The False 9 is not available in Attack duty.

This is a very good question. I chose shadow striker for two reasons:

• Wanted an attacking mentality - as explained in the thread.
• Wanted player in a deep role, connecting with the midfield which comes from being positioned in the AMC strata.

If you want to play a striker, you have to sacrifice on one of these.

 

3 hours ago, yonko said:

@Ö-zil to the Arsenal!

I'm curious regarding your Team Instructions, more specifically about not selecting some of them that I've always thought are essential to replicating Guardiola's style. Thus I wanted to ask you about your thoughts behind opting not go with Prevent Short GK Distribution, Use Tighter Marking and Use Offside Trap. The first two I feel help with the pressing and regaining the ball, while the last one compliments the pressing side of the tactic. But I'm curious what do you think about it?

In addition, I also want to know why you skipped on Work Ball Into Box and Dribble Less? Granted, they make the possession side of the tactic more extreme and perhaps they can be situational instructions (to keep a lead/good result/shut up shop). Is that the reason for omitting them?

From the two videos you posted, I can see how devastating the SS is and I can see how he thrives off through balls from pretty much everyone else around/behind him. Even the DLP (Iniesta) plays plenty of very well timed through passes for teammates. And that is without Pass Into Space TI. In fact all the highlights show very well timed passing patterns of play and against another top quality side like Real Madrid. This is what the combination of technique, passing, first touch, anticipation, composure, decisions and vision leads to.

Gradually working towards keeping Team Instructions to a minimum:

1. Wanted to show people that you don't need to select every team instruction under the sun to play the way you want to.
2. Team Instructions often have other knock on effects, some of which aren't 100% clear. So if I can avoid them, I do.
3. Often they're redundant - for example, do I tell the players to mark tighter if I have no issue with their marking to start with? Preventing Short GK Distribution is the same, do I need to do that if we're already pressuring?

Simplicity is something I really value.

[Jorsin]

16 hours ago, Time_Consumer said:

It's weird, when I set up TIs like you do, my passing appears to be shorter than in your TIs, see screen. Or am i missing something?

 

I noticed something similar - check your GK. In this system it should be a sweeper keeper. That will adjust the passing to match.

[Time_Consumer]

23 minutes ago, Jorsin said:

I noticed something similar - check your GK. In this system it should be a sweeper keeper. That will adjust the passing to match.

When i open instructions in-game, opposed to the TC before, everything looks right. Seems to be one of those annoying UI glitches.

Edited February 28, 2017 by Time_Consumer

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

4 minutes ago, Time_Consumer said:

When i open instructions in-game, opposed to the TC before, everything looks right. Seems to be one of those annoying UI glitches.

Ugh, that's pretty poor. User Interface guys at SI are amateur.

[BadAss88]

4 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

The False 9 is not available in Attack duty.

This is a very good question. I chose shadow striker for two reasons:

• Wanted an attacking mentality - as explained in the thread.
• Wanted player in a deep role, connecting with the midfield which comes from being positioned in the AMC strata.

If you want to play a striker, you have to sacrifice on one of these.

I've tested it out, only for one match with Man Utd against Chelsea, first half Zlatan F9, losing 2-0, second half Mata SS instead of Zlatan and we won 2-3 and the football was way better so I guess I'm gonna try a strikerless formation for the very first time, Man City or Dortmund seem well equiped for the job!

[Time_Consumer]

4 minutes ago, BadAss88 said:

I've tested it out, only for one match with Man Utd against Chelsea, first half Zlatan F9, losing 2-0, second half Mata SS instead of Zlatan and we won 2-3 and the football was way better so I guess I'm gonna try a strikerless formation for the very first time, Man City or Dortmund seem well equiped for the job!

Trying this with BVB at the moment, not a serious save, just skipped through half a season basically sticking to this tactic. Can't say it works wonders. Once Reus is fit it's getting better, but other than that really struggling to find the goal. Playing Auba at SS doesn't work well as he has to be retrained and lacks technical finesse, defense is very mediocre. 8th in the league after half the season, this tactic seems to be for top-top teams only.

[BadAss88]

15 minutes ago, Time_Consumer said:

Trying this with BVB at the moment, not a serious save, just skipped through half a season basically sticking to this tactic. Can't say it works wonders. Once Reus is fit it's getting better, but other than that really struggling to find the goal. Playing Auba at SS doesn't work well as he has to be retrained and lacks technical finesse, defense is very mediocre. 8th in the league after half the season, this tactic seems to be for top-top teams only.

I would sell Aubameyang and put Götze as a SS, but did you try out something else? With Aubameyang as a F9 or an AF/DLF?

[Craigus89]

1 hour ago, Time_Consumer said:

Trying this with BVB at the moment, not a serious save, just skipped through half a season basically sticking to this tactic. Can't say it works wonders. Once Reus is fit it's getting better, but other than that really struggling to find the goal. Playing Auba at SS doesn't work well as he has to be retrained and lacks technical finesse, defense is very mediocre. 8th in the league after half the season, this tactic seems to be for top-top teams only.

If you are 'just skipping through' how do you expect it to work? It isn't a plug and play tactic. A lot of thought needs to be given to the players that you use in the system.

It is by its nature a very aggressive set-up, so top teams will generally do better with it, but the risks to the defense can always be mitigated. To find out how, you'd need to watch the games, which you clearly aren't doing.

[davehibb]

It's like anything else, you either build a system to fit your players or you get the players in that will fit the system.

I'd have thought that Der BVB would have some decent options for this system but just as @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! had to do, some guys would perhaps have to be sacrificed in order to bring in a better fit. That said, I would have thought that Aubameyang would have been a good option at IF? 

Ginter & Bartra are both decent with the ball at their feet, Guerreiro & Passlack at wingback, Sahin (Xavi), Kagawa (Iniesta), Gotze as the SS and then take your pick at IF, Auba, Schurrle, Reus or Dembele.

With a little care and attention, I think BVB might excel in this system. 

Edit: Oh and Weigl at Half Back.

Edited February 28, 2017 by davehibb

[Time_Consumer]

14 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

If you are 'just skipping through' how do you expect it to work? It isn't a plug and play tactic. A lot of thought needs to be given to the players that you use in the system.

It is by its nature a very aggressive set-up, so top teams will generally do better with it, but the risks to the defense can always be mitigated. To find out how, you'd need to watch the games, which you clearly aren't doing.

I did not expect anything and I am in no way surprised it's (not) working this way, don't get me wrong. It was just to see if it would _maybe_ work with a more or less random other team, which it clearly doesn't without altering either the lineup or the system.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, Time_Consumer said:

I did not expect anything and I am in no way surprised it's (not) working this way, don't get me wrong. It was just to see if it would _maybe_ work with a more or less random other team, which it clearly doesn't without altering either the lineup or the system.

It's a very specialised system. It's not going to work with a random team. That's the point of the whole thread and a running theme through everything I've written.

[Time_Consumer]

3 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

It's a very specialised system. It's not going to work with a random team. That's the point of the whole thread and a running theme through everything I've written.

I didn't mean to disrespect what you've created. I was just casually trying out this system (and failed miserably), which makes me appreciate your efforts even more.

[Margent2]

i literally love these threads. as a fellow gooner i also have a fondness for beautiful football and i can see that with your threads. i can see that team building and retraining is a crucial part of this however i was wondering how much time you spent watching the in game live to determine whether this is working as intended. 

 

also regarding Dybala on the right hand side, why did you decide him to replicate the pedro role. apologies if ive missed this there was so much interesting info it may have slipped by

 

last thing.. my favourite pep system was actually the one he used at the start of the season when he brought cesc. something like a 3-4-3 diamond. they beat villareal 5-0 and it was something like this: 

Valdes
Mascherano, Busquets, Abidal 
Keita
Thiago, Iniesta
Alexis, Cesc, Pedro
Messi

crude i know but i couldnt find a screenshot. i guess this is like your ajax thread would you think thats possible in FM? 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

14 minutes ago, Time_Consumer said:

I didn't mean to disrespect what you've created. I was just casually trying out this system (and failed miserably), which makes me appreciate your efforts even more.

No worries. We can probably take a look as to where things went wrong. Look at the squad screen in the format I use in the OP and we should be able to identify missing links.

 

2 minutes ago, Margent2 said:

i literally love these threads. as a fellow gooner i also have a fondness for beautiful football and i can see that with your threads. i can see that team building and retraining is a crucial part of this however i was wondering how much time you spent watching the in game live to determine whether this is working as intended. 

 

also regarding Dybala on the right hand side, why did you decide him to replicate the pedro role. apologies if ive missed this there was so much interesting info it may have slipped by

 

last thing.. my favourite pep system was actually the one he used at the start of the season when he brought cesc. something like a 3-4-3 diamond. they beat villareal 5-0 and it was something like this: 

Valdes
Mascherano, Busquets, Abidal 
Keita
Thiago, Iniesta
Alexis, Cesc, Pedro
Messi

crude i know but i couldnt find a screenshot. i guess this is like your ajax thread would you think thats possible in FM? 

Glad you enjoyed it

I do watch quite a lot of games. I'll watch the pre-season, start of the season quite intensively and all major games. I'll go to shorter highlights to save times in less important games but quick to revert to watching more as soon as cracks start to show.

Good question - didn't actually go into the inside forwards due to an already high word count.

Dybala was chosen because of his excellent overall technical ability, intelligence, work-rate, stamina and - importantly - team work.

Watch this space with the 3-4-3

[yonko]

7 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you very much. Taking a top club and creating something is a different type of challenge. I like that trophies and accolades stop becoming the measure of success - as you're going to win them anyway, most likely - but instead looking as what's going on on-the-field which is all too often overlooked, and creating something beautiful.

Man City is interesting. I just hope they give him enough time. Was a concerning patch a few weeks ago when cracks started to show. The media mauled him. It was always going to take longer than a season here. Yes, Conte's turned it around in a season but - whilst it's winning football - it's pretty tough to watch.
 

Gradually working towards keeping Team Instructions to a minimum:

1. Wanted to show people that you don't need to select every team instruction under the sun to play the way you want to.
2. Team Instructions often have other knock on effects, some of which aren't 100% clear. So if I can avoid them, I do.
3. Often they're redundant - for example, do I tell the players to mark tighter if I have no issue with their marking to start with? Preventing Short GK Distribution is the same, do I need to do that if we're already pressuring?

Simplicity is something I really value.

What people don't understand is that Pep's philosophy and style is very demanding and requires a lot from the players. It's complicated and difficult until you understand it and then it appears simple and logical. Thus for a team to play his way it takes longer time than any other manager's style currently. It also requires specific type of players. The reason it worked so well, so quickly and successfully at Barca was because he had the right players from the start. And he quickly got rid of players he didn't need or thought they wouldn't work for his system even though they are quality players (Ronaldinho, Deco). The reason Conte was able to turn Chelsea around is because his style is pragmatic. Pragmatism is easier to implement. I like how dynamic is Man City's attack. They just need more intelligence and concentration in defense, and they are there.

 

Regarding Team Instructions for you tactic, I get your reasons. Simplicity is a theme in all your threads/tactics you've posted so far. You base everything on formation, mentality, team shape, roles, duties with minimal but essential team/player instructions.

Do you experiment a lot with different options before arriving at this or do you start with little to nothing and then add from there? I'm interested in your process.

[yonko]

Also wanted to ask you about your approach when it comes to press conferences and pre-match/halftime/post-match/in-match team talks. How do you handle those? Personally, I'm annoyed with the press conferences part and prefer to send my assistant. But team talks I think are somewhat important in terms of motivating your players keeping them concentrated and performing at their best.

Lastly, I assume at some point you will talk about training in more details as I think it is important part of playing this style, though I was training had even bigger part in tactics in FM.....perhaps for future editions.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

59 minutes ago, yonko said:

Do you experiment a lot with different options before arriving at this or do you start with little to nothing and then add from there? I'm interested in your process.

I normally have a pretty good idea for a base when I get started but then make changes as I am watching along the way.

Actually made two attempts at this which didn't get the football I wanted. One last season - which is why you'll notice in the threads I made moaning about the half-back I was using Barca - and one early this year.

First attempt I had lots more Attacking duties, the Messi role was a False 9 - not at dangerous - and I was trying to develop young players for the roles.

Second attempt, I had the right style but not the quality - Bellerin v Coutinho, Aleña v Messi, Samper v Iniesta.

The big break through was moving Messi and Iniesta around.

 

54 minutes ago, yonko said:

Also wanted to ask you about your approach when it comes to press conferences and pre-match/halftime/post-match/in-match team talks. How do you handle those? Personally, I'm annoyed with the press conferences part and prefer to send my assistant. But team talks I think are somewhat important in terms of motivating your players keeping them concentrated and performing at their best.

Lastly, I assume at some point you will talk about training in more details as I think it is important part of playing this style, though I was training had even bigger part in tactics in FM.....perhaps for future editions.

Hired 'Mr Motivator' Gery Vink from Ajax as my Assistant and let him use his motivation, discipline and determination to get the team going.

Training largely the same format as with Ajax last year.

• Balanced overall training.
• Specialist individual training - all-rounder roles.
• Average to low workload as I don't rotate much, unless necessary.
• Defensive match-day training just due to a shaky start to the season defensively, generally teamwork.

[yonko]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I normally have a pretty good idea for a base when I get started but then make changes as I am watching along the way.

Actually made two attempts at this which didn't get the football I wanted. One last season - which is why you'll notice in the threads I made moaning about the half-back I was using Barca - and one early this year.

First attempt I had lots more Attacking duties, the Messi role was a False 9 - not at dangerous - and I was trying to develop young players for the roles.

Second attempt, I had the right style but not the quality - Bellerin v Coutinho, Aleña v Messi, Samper v Iniesta.

The big break through was moving Messi and Iniesta around.

 

Hired 'Mr Motivator' Gery Vink from Ajax as my Assistant and let him use his motivation, discipline and determination to get the team going.

Training largely the same format as with Ajax last year.

• Balanced overall training.
• Specialist individual training - all-rounder roles.
• Average to low workload as I don't rotate much, unless necessary.
• Defensive match-day training just due to a shaky start to the season defensively, generally teamwork.

Yeah I remember the thread about the HB role in flat back 4. If you remember I mentioned to you there that I've been using a 2-3-2-3 formation with WB on Support to balance the formation. Actually I had been using it since FM15.

So you let your assistant handle press conferences and team talks?

How is your team cohesiveness? I may be wrong but I swear that when I use my assistant to handle press conferences (I handle team talks myself) my team cohesiveness suffers for some reason. Is that possible or is it just my imagination?

[Craigus89]

I think that can happen. Who knows what they say, they could be slating the whole team constantly. You're better off doing them yourself even though they are incredibly tedious. If you've done enough of them in the past you can usually just hit the right line without really reading anything.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, yonko said:

Yeah I remember the thread about the HB role in flat back 4. If you remember I mentioned to you there that I've been using a 2-3-2-3 formation with WB on Support to balance the formation. Actually I had been using it since FM15.

So you let your assistant handle press conferences and team talks?

How is your team cohesiveness? I may be wrong but I swear that when I use my assistant to handle press conferences (I handle team talks myself) my team cohesiveness suffers for some reason. Is that possible or is it just my imagination?

Yes, I do. This all stemmed from that. It was kinda one thing to another:

• Half-back forced my full backs into the wing back strata, making the defence unstable.
• Wing backs switched to support to solidify the defence but meant play down the flanks became disjointed.
• Inside forwards switched to support to link with the wing but then I had no runners and not enough attacking threat.
• Complete Forward / False 9 (Support) switched to Attacking role for more goal-threat but became isolated from midfield, lacking cohesiveness.
• Dropped the striker into attacking midfield role as Shadow Striker (Attack) and happily ever after.

Yep, I do the tactics and he handles the motivation. I'm a rugby fan and like the idea of the disciplinarian assistant - google Jim Telfer 1997 Lions and this is what happens in my head

Team Cohesiveness is always through the roof when you're winning and people are getting adequate game-time. Would probably try Cohesiveness if morale wasn't already high through results.

 

2 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

I think that can happen. Who knows what they say, they could be slating the whole team constantly. You're better off doing them yourself even though they are incredibly tedious. If you've done enough of them in the past you can usually just hit the right line without really reading anything.

Vink has done well by me. I'd trust anyone with high Motivation stats. Sometimes he uses weird options which perhaps don't make sense to me but they go down very well.

I only ever speak to Leo Messi passionately. Amazing he signed a new contract and isn't completely freaked out.

[fmFutbolManager]

I'm the same, I always leave the talking to my assistant. Primarily because I get bored with the same questions week in and week out, but also because he's good at them and so far hasn't said anything that hasn't yielded positive Pr for players. 

[Craigus89]

One thing that I noticed playing this system with Arsenal (admittedly only pre-season still) is that the IF(s) do sit very wide with that PI 'Sit Wider'. I found the SS would often get the ball and be without support and have to make rush decisions. Or if one of the CM's get's it and is pressed, he could really do with his side's IF dropping in for support. Did you come across this being an issue at all, or were Iniesta, Messi and Neymar just good enough to deal with it most of the time?

I'm playing Alexis in the SS role as he is best suited to it and has very good technical's and intelligence. Possibly tactical familiarity at this point, though I'm not convinced of that.

My plan has been to essentially plug in your system and watch the games and adapt it to fit how I want it to look. This is the first thing I've spotted that I'm not completely happy with.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

39 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

One thing that I noticed playing this system with Arsenal (admittedly only pre-season still) is that the IF(s) do sit very wide with that PI 'Sit Wider'. I found the SS would often get the ball and be without support and have to make rush decisions. Or if one of the CM's get's it and is pressed, he could really do with his side's IF dropping in for support. Did you come across this being an issue at all, or were Iniesta, Messi and Neymar just good enough to deal with it most of the time?

I'm playing Alexis in the SS role as he is best suited to it and has very good technical's and intelligence. Possibly tactical familiarity at this point, though I'm not convinced of that.

My plan has been to essentially plug in your system and watch the games and adapt it to fit how I want it to look. This is the first thing I've spotted that I'm not completely happy with.

The rationale behind that instructions is stretching the opposition defence, creating space for the midfield diamond inside. During build-up the main link-up play with the Shadow Striker comes from midfield. As the attack reaches the final 3rd the Shadow Striker plays like an out-and-out striker and the link-up play comes from the Inside Forwards when they come inside - hence the large number of assists from the Inside Forward position.

If it's not working the way you like, change it. Nothing is set in stone and it's not structurally integral to anything else.

Sanchez would be perfect for either the Shadow Striker or left Inside Forward role. I'd be interested to hear how he does.

[thomit]

Assistant manager is the only(#) cheat I do, and the only reason why I have the InGame Editor. I just hire an unknown guy (rather than messing up the existing ass.man, who's contract will be terminated) and use the editor to make him as good at team talks & motivating as possible, and then set him to handle all talks & interviews. For my own role-playing needs, I tend to hire someone from my own home town and at the same-ish age as me, and pretend I have known this guy forever. I have just brought into my new club an unknown gem that I have just been waiting to give a chance in the big league. Works for me, and given the right attributes he keeps morale and motivation up well, and never puts his foot wrong in any interviews, as far as I can tell.

(#) Erm, no. Not the only one. The other one is using the IGE to maximise tactical familiarity whilst evaluating new tactical ideas.

Edited March 1, 2017 by thomit

[Icetuga]

This thread is outright beatiful and i am predicting that this will go through the roof!

 

I really enjoyed your other threads too and especially the Cruyff one and had a lot of fun with that setting, but this one is bang on for my save that i am playing right now and will be my main source of inspiration thx for that.

The team i am playing right now is Fabril wich i brought up to the first division playing a possession based philosophy mostly in 4-2-3-1, and entering the pre season after my promotion to the first league i see this topic and it fits perfectly without being a big shock for my team to perform and already played 2 pre season games with your settings.

 

What can i say the football the team plays is a beauty to watch even with a very young squad that still need a lot of ball control and passing work to get it perfect, i will see if i can make some adjustements for my team in this shape and contribute with something here too.

 

Another Sporting fan here enjoying your work!  

[Sparky_07]

What all round attributes do you look for in this kind of way to play?

[Craigus89]

Did you read the first post, it's pretty clear.

[Sparky_07]

Yes i did, I mean like does every player have to have certain attributes?

[kandersson]

This is pretty much porn for FM... thanks for another great thread!

[Craigus89]

39 minutes ago, Sparky_07 said:

Yes i did, I mean like does every player have to have certain attributes?

I'm not sure what you are asking. It's pretty clear from the whole concept of the thread that a team is being built around players who have excellent technical skills and intelligence. Those are clearly relevant to position, I wouldn't worry of your CB's have poor finishing for example. It's clearly outlined in the OP that decisions, concentration, determination etc are all important for the whole team.

Edited March 1, 2017 by Craigus89

[yonko]

7 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

One thing that I noticed playing this system with Arsenal (admittedly only pre-season still) is that the IF(s) do sit very wide with that PI 'Sit Wider'. I found the SS would often get the ball and be without support and have to make rush decisions. Or if one of the CM's get's it and is pressed, he could really do with his side's IF dropping in for support. Did you come across this being an issue at all, or were Iniesta, Messi and Neymar just good enough to deal with it most of the time?

I'm playing Alexis in the SS role as he is best suited to it and has very good technical's and intelligence. Possibly tactical familiarity at this point, though I'm not convinced of that.

My plan has been to essentially plug in your system and watch the games and adapt it to fit how I want it to look. This is the first thing I've spotted that I'm not completely happy with.

It depends very much on the type of players you have in those positions/roles and what kind of PPMs/Player Traits they have. They will player differently based on that. So consider that when making a choice who plays where. For experiment sake try playing Sanches as IF(S) on the left with Ozil as the SS and see what happens vs Sanchez as the SS. Look at their player traits and tell me which one do you think will influence their movement and interpretation of the role the most?

At Barca there is a difference between playing each of Messi, Neymar or Suarez as the SS or out wide. The front 3 act differently in the various configurations. That's because they have different traits. The ones that influence the behavior the most are "comes deep to get ball", "breaks offside trap", "gets forward whenever possible", "moves into channels", "gets into opposition area", "looks to pass rather than attempt to score"

42 minutes ago, Sparky_07 said:

What all round attributes do you look for in this kind of way to play?

technique, first touch, passing, anticipation, composure, decisions, vision, teamwork......have already been mentioned by @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! as the main ones in general.

For defensive players I would add concentration, positioning and tackling. For attacking players I would add off the ball, dribbling and flair.

[yonko]

8 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, I do. This all stemmed from that. It was kinda one thing to another:

• Half-back forced my full backs into the wing back strata, making the defence unstable.
• Wing backs switched to support to solidify the defence but meant play down the flanks became disjointed.
• Inside forwards switched to support to link with the wing but then I had no runners and not enough attacking threat.
• Complete Forward / False 9 (Support) switched to Attacking role for more goal-threat but became isolated from midfield, lacking cohesiveness.
• Dropped the striker into attacking midfield role as Shadow Striker (Attack) and happily ever after.

Yep, I do the tactics and he handles the motivation. I'm a rugby fan and like the idea of the disciplinarian assistant - google Jim Telfer 1997 Lions and this is what happens in my head

Team Cohesiveness is always through the roof when you're winning and people are getting adequate game-time. Would probably try Cohesiveness if morale wasn't already high through results.

 

I actually remembered that I tried using 2-3-2-3 variation even back in FM14. I also remember that for both FM14 and FM15 editions there were great threads by member named @cmonreds who was using Liverpool to implement a 2-3-2-3 tiki taka style. Those threads were very inspirational and useful just like yours. Might be worth checking out. 

[ajsr1982]

First things first... This is excellent. I really feel you've nailed the essence of the system.

I was hankering after a framework for this, looking to build pretty much this very system, so thank you for your time and efforts putting this together. However, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I thought I'd try to implement this in a team that is a world away from Barcelona. (Reus, in the Spanish third tier, since you're asking!)

The immediate issue here is that I don't have Messi, Iniesta, et al to call upon. But the principles of the system should remain, so I'll go through what I did, some of the issues I found, and where I felt I needed to change things. I can see a lot people trying and failing to replicate what you've done by plugging and playing.

I should add that I haven't read the full thread, so if this has evolved from the initial post, apologies. Might be a decent experiment to see if you and others found similar issues though.

I started with (roughly) the same system as you, but I brought the WBs into the defensive line. I also started with a F9 up front, but soon adopted the SS. Lastly, I used a RPM rather than an AP in midfield. A slight difference in interpretation of the system is all, but minimal changes.

First, I should say that I barely touched the TIs. I thought they were sensible, and I like the minimalist approach here. I toyed with the d-line, and I toyed with switching 'Retain Possession' on and off, but to little effect.

Next, I want to talk about player roles. You said they were plastic, and I absolutely agree with that. I thought your framework for assessing them was also excellent. It's really important to dig beneath the surface and find out exactly what you're asking of your players, and whether the role is appropriate. The issue I had here is that many of the player roles you used increase dribbling. Great if you have Iniesta, Messi, Neymar and Alves at your disposal, and I think this is why the conversion of Coutinho to RWB is a masterstroke. However... my players, not so good at the old dribbling, it turns out. I saw many instances of running into trouble, particularly in my own half as my RWB tried to take on the entire opposition team. I tweaked some of the roles to turn this down, moving from CWB to WB/S, which is much more customisable. The IF/A has the same issue.

As I said, I moved away from the F9 to adopt the SS, but I felt that didn't work either. I wasn't getting the penetration I wanted. I moved to a CF/A, but that didn't work too well either. I ended up finding what I wanted with a DLF/A. He drops deep, but also acts a focal point for the attack. It also helped with the pressing, some.

I ended up adopting the AP, as the RPM didn't work. Upon review, the AP/A is a much better representation of the Iniesta role.

I also ditched the BPDs, as I felt it jarred with 'Play Out of Defence'. One shortens passing, the other appears to lengthen it. My defenders were by-passing my midfield too often, and losing possession as a result.

Moving on to PIs... the only one I really had issue with was telling the IFs to stay wide. I found my centre forward was very isolated, and it also prevented my WBs from getting into the game. They played more like wingers that cut inside after receiving the ball to feet, which, you know, maybe isn't a bad representation of what Messi does from the right hand side. In my team, it just didn't work, perhaps due to the aforementioned dribbling issues.

Anyway, hope that helps some people if they're looking to do this with players who are mortal! Good job though, a really enjoyable read, and I thought it gave me an excellent place to work from and iron out issues as I went.

[pepalves7]

Great job, Ozil.

For some time I've tried to recreate this way of playing, because i'am "Pep fanboy". So, this topic is gold. I will start a new save with Sevilla, because the idea of Sampaoli (and Juanma Lillo) is very similar with the Pep Guardiola. The juego de posición. 

Cheers! 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, ajsr1982 said:

First things first... This is excellent. I really feel you've nailed the essence of the system.

I was hankering after a framework for this, looking to build pretty much this very system, so thank you for your time and efforts putting this together. However, I'm a glutton for punishment, so I thought I'd try to implement this in a team that is a world away from Barcelona. (Reus, in the Spanish third tier, since you're asking!)

The immediate issue here is that I don't have Messi, Iniesta, et al to call upon. But the principles of the system should remain, so I'll go through what I did, some of the issues I found, and where I felt I needed to change things. I can see a lot people trying and failing to replicate what you've done by plugging and playing.

I should add that I haven't read the full thread, so if this has evolved from the initial post, apologies. Might be a decent experiment to see if you and others found similar issues though.

I started with (roughly) the same system as you, but I brought the WBs into the defensive line. I also started with a F9 up front, but soon adopted the SS. Lastly, I used a RPM rather than an AP in midfield. A slight difference in interpretation of the system is all, but minimal changes.

First, I should say that I barely touched the TIs. I thought they were sensible, and I like the minimalist approach here. I toyed with the d-line, and I toyed with switching 'Retain Possession' on and off, but to little effect.

Next, I want to talk about player roles. You said they were plastic, and I absolutely agree with that. I thought your framework for assessing them was also excellent. It's really important to dig beneath the surface and find out exactly what you're asking of your players, and whether the role is appropriate. The issue I had here is that many of the player roles you used increase dribbling. Great if you have Iniesta, Messi, Neymar and Alves at your disposal, and I think this is why the conversion of Coutinho to RWB is a masterstroke. However... my players, not so good at the old dribbling, it turns out. I saw many instances of running into trouble, particularly in my own half as my RWB tried to take on the entire opposition team. I tweaked some of the roles to turn this down, moving from CWB to WB/S, which is much more customisable. The IF/A has the same issue.

As I said, I moved away from the F9 to adopt the SS, but I felt that didn't work either. I wasn't getting the penetration I wanted. I moved to a CF/A, but that didn't work too well either. I ended up finding what I wanted with a DLF/A. He drops deep, but also acts a focal point for the attack. It also helped with the pressing, some.

I ended up adopting the AP, as the RPM didn't work. Upon review, the AP/A is a much better representation of the Iniesta role.

I also ditched the BPDs, as I felt it jarred with 'Play Out of Defence'. One shortens passing, the other appears to lengthen it. My defenders were by-passing my midfield too often, and losing possession as a result.

Moving on to PIs... the only one I really had issue with was telling the IFs to stay wide. I found my centre forward was very isolated, and it also prevented my WBs from getting into the game. They played more like wingers that cut inside after receiving the ball to feet, which, you know, maybe isn't a bad representation of what Messi does from the right hand side. In my team, it just didn't work, perhaps due to the aforementioned dribbling issues.

Anyway, hope that helps some people if they're looking to do this with players who are mortal! Good job though, a really enjoyable read, and I thought it gave me an excellent place to work from and iron out issues as I went.

Fantastic - all valid insights. Interesting to hear that - as I thought - the False 9 would lack penetration.

Nice work 

 

18 minutes ago, pepalves7 said:

Great job, Ozil.

For some time I've tried to recreate this way of playing, because i'am "Pep fanboy". So, this topic is gold. I will start a new save with Sevilla, because the idea of Sampaoli (and Juanma Lillo) is very similar with the Pep Guardiola. The juego de posición. 

Cheers! 

Yes, I get the feeling they might be an interesting topic in months to come. Sampaoli's style seems a little more attacking but we have discussed all the tools to re-create it quite simply.

Juanma Lillo is an interesting topic in his own right with the origins of the 4-2-3-1.

[HaroldHammond]

Love this a lot, yet again..

One thing I'd love to see from you, is a Bielsa thread.. I long for the day you make one, please consider it.

Good job again mate

[pepalves7]

43 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yes, I get the feeling they might be an interesting topic in months to come. Sampaoli's style seems a little more attacking but we have discussed all the tools to re-create it quite simply.

Juanma Lillo is an interesting topic in his own right with the origins of the 4-2-3-1.

Yes, the Sampaoli's style is more 'agressive'. More risk in pass anda more verticaly, but, i think Sampaoli with Lillo, he search one football more 'calm' and more similar with footbal positional of Pep Guardiola in Barcelona. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

1 hour ago, HaroldHammond said:

Love this a lot, yet again..

One thing I'd love to see from you, is a Bielsa thread.. I long for the day you make one, please consider it.

Good job again mate

I agree that Bielsa would make a very interesting thread. The issue is the time to commit to a reasonably similar style of play. Depending on how you see the football, I'd be very surprised if we'd not discussed everything you'd need to put it together for yourself.

[HaroldHammond]

Just now, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I agree that Bielsa would make a very interesting thread. The issue is the time to commit to a reasonably similar style of play. Depending on how you see the football, I'd be very surprised if we'd not discussed everything you'd need to put it together for yourself.

No problem, you mean discussed on this thread? will have a long read through if so

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Just now, HaroldHammond said:

No problem, you mean discussed on this thread? will have a long read through if so

I would say starting with the Cruyff thread, the 4-1-4-1 thread and this.

You've need to evolve the playing style to fit how you see Bielsa and then a structure that a) plays the right kind of football and b) goes some way - probably not all, for El Loco - towards balancing the crazy.

[Callummack]

On 26/02/2017 at 19:00, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

La Masia: Barcelona B

 

This post has been reserved to talk about La Masia & Youth Development.

Specifically:

• Head of Youth Development.
• Analysing young players.
• Training & attribute development.
• Managing your Squad to facilitate Youth Development.
• Tutoring.

If there are any other areas people are struggling with on the Youth Development side please raise them here and I will add to the list.

Such a class read 👏🏻 Buzzing to see what you've done regarding the la masia!

[jukilo]

Amazing read once again! Although it's not my preferred style of play, I respect a lot Pep and this team.

You said you have the Assistant running the motivation talks but it should be you with the ability you have for motivating people to follow your threads haha

It kinda makes me wanna go back to FM17 and build my own system but it brings too much negative emotions and I prefer to be on safe lands and play FM13 with the latest great plug & play tactic.

Please keep writing and I look forward to see the developments you have in store.

Edited March 2, 2017 by jukilo

[kandersson]

I know it wasn't particularly Messi-ish but have you considered  the 'Likes to try to beat offside trap' trait for the SS? I have a (sub-par)  striker with that trait and he's shown some promise in this set-up as the SS, still coming quite deep but also making himself available for some clear chances (mosty missed ofc) and winning a couple of penalties + red card after beating the line. Maybe something to test more consistently for further penetration.

Absolutely love this thread and the idea behind it, I feel this tactical set-up will work great against opponents that close down and don't park the bus while from very brief experience I'm foreseeing issues against disciplined teams parking the bus and standing off, of course that's where you should expect a bit of magic from your gifted attackers - which I don't really have at this point, I'm rocking Jerry Mbakogu and Kevin Lasagna as  Neymar and Dybala 

Fantastic read!

[BadAss88]

Is there a reason you use a WB(s) on the left and not a CWB(s) as you do on the right? Is it for more balance next to your AP(a)? Or just to replicate Abidal?