Players don't develop past 20

[Marazola]

An issue I've had on this as well as past FM's, but whenever a player reaches 20 they barely develop from there. I can't be doing something wrong?

[herne79]

12 minutes ago, Marazola said:

I can't be doing something wrong?

Who can say?  We have no idea what you are doing.

Perhaps if you detail your training plans we might be able to offer some pointers.  For example:

What are the player personalities?  How and when do you Tutor players?  How good are your facilities and coaches?  What General Training settings do you use?  What individual training plans have you set?  Have you set yourself to be in control of Training or is everything left to a member of staff?  How often do you change Training plans?  How much playing time are these players getting?  Do they have any long term or frequent injuries?  Do you loan them out?  How do you move them from Youth to Senior squads?

That's just off the top of my head.  If confused, there are some great Training Guides pinned to the top of this forum that I'd recommend you have read through.

[Marazola]

Just now, herne79 said:

Who can say?  We have no idea what you are doing.

Perhaps if you detail your training plans we might be able to offer some pointers.  For example:

What are the player personalities?  How and when do you Tutor players?  How good are your facilities and coaches?  What General Training settings do you use?  What individual training plans have you set?  Have you set yourself to be in control of Training or is everything left to a member of staff?  How often do you change Training plans?  How much playing time are these players getting?  Do they have any long term or frequent injuries?  Do you loan them out?  How do you move them from Youth to Senior squads?

That's just off the top of my head.  If confused, there are some great Training Guides pinned to the top of this forum that I'd recommend you have read through.

Apologies, heres a little information

 

My training facilities are "impressive", they develop from 15 to 20 and then take a huge slump in progress. My coaches have 20 working with youngsters or near it, my individual training is set and they always moan that it won't produce more result, I changed my training every week, and they're always getting playing time. Sometimes I even give them reserve + first teaqm football too. Thats a bit of information.

 

Its frustrating because I feel I'm on a short time limit. Its happened to me with Rijeka and Lillestrom before that.

[Dr. Hook]

2 hours ago, Marazola said:

Apologies, heres a little information

 

My training facilities are "impressive", they develop from 15 to 20 and then take a huge slump in progress. My coaches have 20 working with youngsters or near it, my individual training is set and they always moan that it won't produce more result, I changed my training every week, and they're always getting playing time. Sometimes I even give them reserve + first teaqm football too. Thats a bit of information.

 

Its frustrating because I feel I'm on a short time limit. Its happened to me with Rijeka and Lillestrom before that.

There is a point at which they need regular first team football to continue to develop. By 20 or 21, they need to be getting that regular time either with you, or out on loan in a quality league. You can only develop so far with training facilities, coaching, and youth/reserve league football.

My general rule is that if by 21 at the latest a player is not ready to get some quality minutes with the first team, then I look to unload him. Developing youths for first team duty requires some risk on your part as not all of them will make it and some might even cost you goals and points through poor play. You have to give them the time, though. Which brings me to another question: how are you judging their progress in terms of readiness for the first team?

[herne79]

8 hours ago, Marazola said:

I changed my training every week

 

8 hours ago, Marazola said:

they always moan

Two problems there as well.  Players should be kept on the same training for at least 3 months in order to get the maximum benefit, and if they are always moaning it can indicate they have poor personalities.  Players with poor personalities don't train well.

8 hours ago, Marazola said:

My coaches have 20 working with youngsters or near it

And here, whilst having high Working With Youngsters is good, effective coaches will also have high levels of Determination, Motivation, Discipline and the respective attribute for their field (such as Defending for your Defensive coaches).

I recommended above that you read through the Training Guides pinned to the top of the forum, you really should read them.  Everything mentioned here (and more) is discussed in detail there.

[Torskus77]

Been mentioned already, but I pretty much think it is down to either poor personalities , low professionalism or game time.  Sticking them on for 15 minutes at the end of the game doesn't really cut it once they get to 20 ish, need to be starting some games.  I don't tend to loan players out, but if I have someone 19 or 20 that I can't fit in, and think he still can develop in to something I can use, then I will take that option first, before deciding whether to move them on. 

 

I have read that 24 is the cut off where they wont develop much further (or as quickly) but I have got some 25 year old + to develop quite a bit, you sometimes find a decent player that for whatever reason hasn't been developed well by his other clubs, lack of game time or whatever. Obviously the younger you get them training towards what you want them to be the better, but I don't just write players off cos they are 20+ 

 

There is an excellent training and developing players thread by Cleon, was written for a few years ago now 2015 possibly can't remember, training has changed slightly I think, but the core principles are the same I think. In fact quite a few of Cleon's threads pick up on that side of the game. Just to add, some players just don't make it, it happens, for a whole number of reasons, sometimes you just have to accept it with one you thought might be the next Maradona, and move on. 

[Bigpapa42]

18 hours ago, Marazola said:

 Sometimes I even give them reserve + first teaqm football too. Thats a bit of information.

Herne and Torkus mentioned all the possibilities, but this is the bit that jumped out at me. First team action is really important to development. Even a 16 or 17 year old who is reasonably developed (not an amazing wonderkid who is highly developed for that age) can start getting some match time as a sub, cup matches, etc. Let alone by the time they are 18, 19 or 20. If a player isn't useful at all to my first team by that point, I am not really considering them a prospect anymore. So "sometimes" giving them a taste of action is hardly ensuring they get first team opportunities on a relatively consistent basis.

If this is happening across multiple saves, its likely something with what you are doing that's the root cause. It seems unlikely to me that every prospect across every save for you is going to suffer from poor personalities that impact their development. Some, sure. But all? Not all that likely. And players with less than idea personalities can still be developed - its an impediment, certainly, but not an absolute that they won't develop at all.

[HUNT3R]

I've often found that (and I know it's just an indicator and opinion) players can develop to around 1.5 stars (maybe as much as 2 stars) just from good training facilities, coaches and personality. After that, you're going to see stunted growth and even the coach reports backing it up. They'll desperately need first team football then.

[AFCBeer]

I completely disagree with the thread title. I've got a player at 26 still making huge improvements and even a 27 year old striker and 28 year old defender still making small gains. 

I will point out my transfer policy has been different to the norm. I've picked up players from bigger clubs who by age 24 or 25 haven't fulfilled the talent my scouts suggested they had.

Deciding to gamble on these free transfers I found by giving them plenty of game time they improved quickly. I guess what particularly helped was promotion to the EPL and in the case of the 26 year old international recognition too. 

I realise this is slightly different to developing players from your own academy as youngsters, but the principle of plenty of game time overrides everything else. And that's true if they are an 18 year old wonderkid or slow developer in their mid 20s

[noikeee]

7 minutes ago, AFCBeer said:

I completely disagree with the thread title. I've got a player at 26 still making huge improvements and even a 27 year old striker and 28 year old defender still making small gains. 

I will point out my transfer policy has been different to the norm. I've picked up players from bigger clubs who by age 24 or 25 haven't fulfilled the talent my scouts suggested they had.

Deciding to gamble on these free transfers I found by giving them plenty of game time they improved quickly. I guess what particularly helped was promotion to the EPL and in the case of the 26 year old international recognition too. 

I realise this is slightly different to developing players from your own academy as youngsters, but the principle of plenty of game time overrides everything else. And that's true if they are an 18 year old wonderkid or slow developer in their mid 20s

That's clever. I've had some luck with players like that in the past, but never specifically targeted them.

[Torskus77]

1 hour ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Herne and Torkus mentioned all the possibilities, but this is the bit that jumped out at me. First team action is really important to development. Even a 16 or 17 year old who is reasonably developed (not an amazing wonderkid who is highly developed for that age) can start getting some match time as a sub, cup matches, etc. Let alone by the time they are 18, 19 or 20. If a player isn't useful at all to my first team by that point, I am not really considering them a prospect anymore. So "sometimes" giving them a taste of action is hardly ensuring they get first team opportunities on a relatively consistent basis.

If this is happening across multiple saves, its likely something with what you are doing that's the root cause. It seems unlikely to me that every prospect across every save for you is going to suffer from poor personalities that impact their development. Some, sure. But all? Not all that likely. And players with less than idea personalities can still be developed - its an impediment, certainly, but not an absolute that they won't develop at all.

 

I agree with that too. I've had players with poor personalities pretty much reach the top of their potential.  I've had plenty that haven't too I might add, game time seems to be the biggest thing, the higher level the better too. 

[Bigpapa42]

12 minutes ago, Torskus77 said:

I agree with that too. I've had players with poor personalities pretty much reach the top of their potential.  I've had plenty that haven't too I might add, game time seems to be the biggest thing, the higher level the better too. 

I feel like first team action is a really significant factor. Not saying more than personality, but I feel like a mediocre personality with plenty of first team action is more likely to develop more than a great personality with little to no first team match time. On FM16 and FM17, I've seen some pretty decent jumps in talent from players who were in the reserves, but the biggest increases come from significant exposure to first team matches.

And that's a pretty interesting approach,  AFCBeer. Might have to adopt that. Playing as an English club outside the top few in England, I definitely scout the biggest clubs heavily and look for players that they aren't bothering with. But in truth, I may have overlooked "older" players (mid 20s) who never quite developed like they could/should have. But those definitely happen at the big clubs.

[Dr. Hook]

11 minutes ago, Bigpapa42 said:

I feel like first team action is a really significant factor.

It is the most significant factor, hands down. It is more important than coaching stars, more important than training facilities, more important than personality. All of those things matter to a degree and all play a part in mazimizing potential, but as I mentioned earlier in the thread, you will struggle to ever develop a player to his potential or even a large part of it by giving him youth or reserve football.

A note on the 24 age threshold- this age threshold is primarily important in terms of players who have been well-developed from youth. So if you start a player from your youth intake and mold him properly, he will likely do the vast majority of his developing by or even before 24. Players who have not been properly developed, either because the AI mishandled them, or because they played at a low enough level that they stopped improving, can and will develop into their later 20s. Lke AFCBeer, I have had players develop through their 20s. One was a keeper I got at 25 and he made pretty massive gains till age 28.

[Seb Wassell]

Bit late to the party but hopefully some information that will help here -

More often than not players will see their greatest rate of CA increase during their formative years. Given the right circumstances a teenager will likely gain more CA per year than a 24 year old. In these early years much of the CA gain will go into physical attributes. But of course this is not a rule, more a guide. Various circumstances can lead to either stagnated or accelerated growth at different ages.
Each player has a few key age ranges (under the hood) where certain stages of development are approximated. For example, it is common for many players to have their "Physical Peak" at 24, prior to which they will see good gains in their physicals and following which these gains will be much smaller. These vary on a player by player basis.
In terms of match time vs. training facilities/coaching it is the latter that is most important prior to the player's 18th birthday, with the better facilities and better coaching seeing improved development. At the age of 18 this then switches to the former, after which players need to be playing football at the right level to continue making good gains. The "right level" may be League 2 or Premier League depending on the ability of the player. For maximum developmental return a player should be playing at a level that he is both challenged by (i.e the highest level to which he is suited) and can find success (i.e. good ratings).
All of this is modified by personalities. A highly professional, determined and ambitious player is much more likely to see success than a player without these key attributes.

There is plenty more to this and obviously much of it is governed simultaneously by several different factors combined with a healthy slice of randomness.
We did some work under the hood this year on improving the variety of what you will see in both the types of players that develop (or not) and what stages in their career they will develop (or not). The idea being that alongside the usual uber professional, high PA youngsters achieving success at 21 you should also see a few more Balotellis and examples of "late bloomers" or "false dawns".

Cheers,
Seb.

 

[Dr. Hook]

4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Bit late to the party but hopefully some information that will help here -

More often than not players will see their greatest rate of CA increase during their formative years. Given the right circumstances a teenager will likely gain more CA per year than a 24 year old. In these early years much of the CA gain will go into physical attributes. But of course this is not a rule, more a guide. Various circumstances can lead to either stagnated or accelerated growth at different ages.
Each player has a few key age ranges (under the hood) where certain stages of development are approximated. For example, it is common for many players to have their "Physical Peak" at 24, prior to which they will see good gains in their physicals and following which these gains will be much smaller. These vary on a player by player basis.
In terms of match time vs. training facilities/coaching it is the latter that is most important prior to the player's 18th birthday, with the better facilities and better coaching seeing improved development. At the age of 18 this then switches to the former, after which players need to be playing football at the right level to continue making good gains. The "right level" may be League 2 or Premier League depending on the ability of the player. For maximum developmental return a player should be playing at a level that he is both challenged by (i.e the highest level to which he is suited) and can find success (i.e. good ratings).
All of this is modified by personalities. A highly professional, determined and ambitious player is much more likely to see success than a player without these key attributes.

There is plenty more to this and obviously much of it is governed simultaneously by several different factors combined with a healthy slice of randomness.
We did some work under the hood this year on improving the variety of what you will see in both the types of players that develop (or not) and what stages in their career they will develop (or not). The idea being that alongside the usual uber professional, high PA youngsters achieving success at 21 you should also see a few more Balotellis and examples of "late bloomers" or "false dawns".

Cheers,
Seb.

 

Thanks for posting this Seb- always good to get the insider information! So @Marazola, talking about life after 20 for your squad, the bolded bit is the key thing. Get those lads some first team playing time!