Starting to struggle with my 532

[Marabak]

Hey. I'm just coming to the end of my third season in charge of Everton and I am starting to struggle a little and I feel like I am making little progress. I wanted to experiment with both a 3 man defence and a two man strike partnership. My general philosophy is to keep it tight at the back with a 3 man defence, get the ball forward to my attacking trio who do the damage, with width being supplied by my wingbacks who I want to be able to get up and down the pitch.

I tinker slightly depending on the game, but my current/strongest main first team squad looks something like this (italics for player traits):

GK: Asmir Begovic

RCD(C): Chris Smalling

DCB(S): Ryan Shawcross Marks Opp Tightly, Dives into Tackles, Tries Long Range Passes

LCD(C): Diego Reyes

RWB(S): Seamus Coleman Runs With Ball Down Right, Gets Forward When Possible, Shoots with Power, Plays One Twos

LWB(A): Ruben Duarte Runs With Ball Down Left

DLP(D): Johannes Geis Curls Ball, Comes Deep to Get Ball, Dictates Tempo, Tries Long Range Passes, Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank

BBM(S): Mohamed Elneny Shoots from Distance, Comes Deep to Get Ball, Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank

AM(A): Ross Barkley Runs With Ball Through Centre, Tries Killer Balls Often, Shoots With Power, Arrives Late in Opposition Area, Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble

CF(S): Romelu Lukaku Places shots

AF(A): Cauley Woodrow Shoots with Power, Plays One Twos

Team instructions are Standard, Flexible with whipped crosses and play out of defence.

Little in the way of PI, but both WB have "run wide with the ball" and "stay wider" as I want them to provide the width in my tactic. AM has "shoot more often" and "move into channels" to take advantage of the Barkley's shooting attributes and to provide some movement into space.

In general, I have tried to encompass the player traits in the various roles (i.e. Shawcross begs to be played as a DCB as if I played him as a CD he would natural act as a DCB anyway). Having two players in midfield who come deep is a little issue, hence the play out of defence (so I don't just lump it over them) to try and counter this a little.

My recent results have been very mixed to say the least. My domestic competition results are outlined below (I'm in the semifinals of Europa League, so not bad on that front)

 

My stats are:

 

I am struggling to score recently (at least compared to earlier in the season) as well as conceding  a lot easier than before. I'm still flirting with in and around 5th place (until my last draw knocked me to 7th), but I want to nip this in the bud before it gets worse.

Any thoughts or opinions gratefully received

[WhyMe]

Hi Marabak,

 

I play an identical formation and almost identical roles.  However, my AMC is an AM support rather than attack.  I found that with two strikers as well having the AMC on attack didn't really work.  Instead I have my AMC on support with get further forward, roam from position and more risky passes.  This still means he makes forward runs to get into goal scoring positions but I find the movement works better with the CF-s than it did previously.  As a side note my BBM also has a move into channels instruction which helps with overall movement.  Granted I am not trying to get the AMC to take more long shots but I suspect this might work for you as well.  Hope it helps.

I do however play standard structured high pressure possession game rather than your system so it may not work so well but worth a try eh.

[Marabak]

Cheers for the reply. Interesting that we have come to similar systems  I will try Barkley on AM(S), but if I remember correctly when I tried that earlier, he came to deep with both CMs dropping deep as well. However, maybe that is what I need right now.

[WhyMe]

I'll be interested to see how you get on with the AM-s and the player instruction set I suggested because as I said you play a very different style of football and I totally agree that the comes deep to get ball player traits on your CM's could cause a problem too.

Added to that I am in 2024 so my players are a lot better than yours so that might make a difference as well.

If your curious I use a lot of TI's to set up a high pressure possession style and they are:  Offside trap, close down much more and tight marking for the high pressure bit and short passing, dribble less and work ball into box for the possession bit.  I also use be more expressive to add a bit more creative freedom than structured allows.  Finally, I sometimes use roam from position and pass into space when the situation calls for them.

The other difference between my system and yours is that I have a S-C-S combo for the three at the back rather than your C-S-C.  Both my wing backs are also CWB the left on attack and the right on support.  Both sides have get further forward player trait.

Not suggesting my system is better btw just that it is very different and with very different players so my advice may not work.  Either way good luck and I will be interested to see how you get on.

[bambos04]

I don't think Elneny with his comes deep to get the ball is a good choice as a B2B; I think you need more of a runner in that position and Elneny isn't..

You already have 3 CD, so I'll try to get Geis more involved in the offensive build up moving him as a DLP(s) rather than (d)

[Rashidi]

I have been playing with a 3 man defence in recent games on my Gloucester Diaries saves on YT. The tactic I am using is called 532 Shadow and you can see the tactic I am using on the thumbnails, and one thing I've noticed in your system is the choice of roles.

Without seeing any of your pkms and just by your roles alone I reckon you are conceding most of your goals down the middle or on your right flank. Basically this is where it's happening. 

Furthermore I have some concern with the combination of a BBM and a dlp on defend. If you plan to use the DLP to create then he needs help to do defensive duties. So it's a catch mall problem. Do you want him to create or defend cos his partner will ROAM, and that is the biggest issue in the middle. Having the central defender step up is a good idea but it feels like bandaid to solve a problem with a screen that should be done right in the first place.

Upfront you also have the issue of a combo with a advanced F playing beside a CF on support who also roams. 

There are two grids you need to control, and the defensive grid may be an issue. Tweaking the roles here would be a good idea.

One other thing you don't need to ask your WBs to stay wide, they will naturally provide width cos no one else is doing it.

[madmike]

I am by no means an expert but I have used this formation quite frequently.  My first thoughts would be;

I dont like the BBM, he will occupy the same space as the AMC, personally I play an BWM support next to CMd and give the AMC the creative role.  

Also as you are a couple of seasons in and quite strong I would tend to start more games with a Control Mentality.  With Sunderland in the first season I play Control at home against all but the top 6 and i generally do well.   You've drawn a blank in 3 of your last 6 and don't seem to be conceding an awful amount I would say you need to impose yourself more.

[Marabak]

Cheers for the feedback guys. A few tweaks going into my next match against Stoke away. I went with my DLP on Support paired with CM(S) (Elneny is injured so Cleverly slotted in here), some rotation in my squad, so Saponara came in as AM(S).
 

I know one swallow doesn't make a summer, but there was an improvement in the performance. The final result was 3:1 to me, with Stoke's goal coming from a corner. Doubly good as I rotated a few youth prospects as well. Defending was pretty robust and attacking moves were quite fluent. The central trio weren't perfect however, linking up well when in possession but frequently too narrow and chasing the same man too often in defence. This is one reason I originally had the DLP on Defend, less for the defensive side of things, but more to keep them a bit more out of the action and keep them a bit more stationary and deeper.
 

[looping]

By no means an expert but regarding to the issue you mention:

48 minutes ago, Marabak said:

Defending was pretty robust and attacking moves were quite fluent. The central trio weren't perfect however, linking up well when in possession but frequently too narrow and chasing the same man too often in defence

I'm using a similar setup (failing, be aware) and I had to drop my AMC to CM strata. Now I have 3 cm: the left covers the central-left area and the right the central-right area so they are not chasing the same man.

I can certainly be mistaken.

[Fosse]

1 hour ago, looping said:

By no means an expert but regarding to the issue you mention:

I'm using a similar setup (failing, be aware) and I had to drop my AMC to CM strata. Now I have 3 cm: the left covers the central-left area and the right the central-right area so they are not chasing the same man.

I can certainly be mistaken.

I did the same as you @Looping - I didn't like how we're set up defensively with the AM

[looping]

35 minutes ago, Fosse said:

I did the same as you @Looping - I didn't like how we're set up defensively with the AM

The problem comes with my strikers who became isolated after this change, so anyone who reads this must be aware that I just swapped a problem for another...

[Harpoon76]

I've just finished my 5th season playing some form of 5-3-2.  The 3 x CDs and 2 x WBs has been consistent as a starting formation but I've been lots of different DM/M/AM/FW combinations to try to find what works best.

Two strikers can seem to be isolated, even with a CM(A) who should be busting a gut to get forward and link up.  I also believe that any forward role that includes the hard-coded PI of dribble-more isn't good a thing unless you have a absolute top-notch striker.  Playing my best forward as a CF (support or attack) seems to result in balls getting up to him, at which point he turns and drives forward.  He'll make some good ground but then either take a very poor touch or just get robbed by the 2nd or 3rd defender he meets.

[Fosse]

In my 352 I have Jamie Vardy as an AF partnered with Calum Wilson as a DLF-S, they work quite well as he drops deep, he's reasonably strong and a good passer whilst Vardy runs in behind. In midfield I have Kristofer Ajer or Drinkwater playing as a CM-A which provides another goal threat and support for the forwards.

If I feel the forwards are too isolated I'll use exploit the middle which increase the mentality of the CM-A and CM-s and/or I'll change to fluid shape as the wingbacks are slightly more aggressive and the strikers aren't quite as high up the pitch.

[cns180784]

On 3/9/2017 at 23:38, looping said:

The problem comes with my strikers who became isolated after this change, so anyone who reads this must be aware that I just swapped a problem for another...

I was just going to say you should play one of your forwards as a DLF-S and then i just noticed the post by Fosse and just shows coming from another guy that this way works to prevent your forwards from getting isolated. F9 is another role that can help link your midfield to your forwards but i'd say DLF-S is best using his strength to hold up the ball and its even better if he has the "Plays With Back To Goal" PPM or/and "Comes Deep To Get Ball".

I dont play this formation but with the lack of width, only having wing backs, this formation is by far best used to play a short passing possession style imo which should include at least a fluid team shape but i'd say preferably very fluid to keep the shape nice and compact which encourages short passing.

[cns180784]

On 3/7/2017 at 14:53, Marabak said:

Hey. I'm just coming to the end of my third season in charge of Everton and I am starting to struggle a little and I feel like I am making little progress. I wanted to experiment with both a 3 man defence and a two man strike partnership. My general philosophy is to keep it tight at the back with a 3 man defence, get the ball forward to my attacking trio who do the damage, with width being supplied by my wingbacks who I want to be able to get up and down the pitch.

I tinker slightly depending on the game, but my current/strongest main first team squad looks something like this (italics for player traits):

GK: Asmir Begovic

RCD(C): Chris Smalling

DCB(S): Ryan Shawcross Marks Opp Tightly, Dives into Tackles, Tries Long Range Passes

LCD(C): Diego Reyes

RWB(S): Seamus Coleman Runs With Ball Down Right, Gets Forward When Possible, Shoots with Power, Plays One Twos

LWB(A): Ruben Duarte Runs With Ball Down Left

DLP(D): Johannes Geis Curls Ball, Comes Deep to Get Ball, Dictates Tempo, Tries Long Range Passes, Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank

BBM(S): Mohamed Elneny Shoots from Distance, Comes Deep to Get Ball, Likes to Switch Ball to Other Flank

AM(A): Ross Barkley Runs With Ball Through Centre, Tries Killer Balls Often, Shoots With Power, Arrives Late in Opposition Area, Tries to Play Way Out of Trouble

CF(S): Romelu Lukaku Places shots

AF(A): Cauley Woodrow Shoots with Power, Plays One Twos

Team instructions are Standard, Flexible with whipped crosses and play out of defence.

Little in the way of PI, but both WB have "run wide with the ball" and "stay wider" as I want them to provide the width in my tactic. AM has "shoot more often" and "move into channels" to take advantage of the Barkley's shooting attributes and to provide some movement into space.

In general, I have tried to encompass the player traits in the various roles (i.e. Shawcross begs to be played as a DCB as if I played him as a CD he would natural act as a DCB anyway). Having two players in midfield who come deep is a little issue, hence the play out of defence (so I don't just lump it over them) to try and counter this a little.

My recent results have been very mixed to say the least. My domestic competition results are outlined below (I'm in the semifinals of Europa League, so not bad on that front)

 

My stats are:

 

I am struggling to score recently (at least compared to earlier in the season) as well as conceding  a lot easier than before. I'm still flirting with in and around 5th place (until my last draw knocked me to 7th), but I want to nip this in the bud before it gets worse.

Any thoughts or opinions gratefully received

To play the ball out of defence you cant have a DCB as he will just hoof the ball once he wins it. I agree with this TI for this formation but really you should change Shawcross to a CD-S and if his composure is lacking then focus on that in his individual training. Also the two mids coming deep to get ball is a no no. To have one with that PPM such as the DLP yes but not both imo. Then again i wouldnt play a DLP with this system as a DLP will want to look to try more killer longer passes forward (isnt that what a DLP does or is supposed to do?) i would just have a simple CM-D and CM-A central mid partnership and preferably i'd go with an advanced playmaker in the AMC position especially with two forwards ahead of him. Then again i've been playing a 4231 wide with my team and i'm coming from what i do in that but i can see this working with your 532.

[looping]

On 11/3/2017 at 03:00, cns180784 said:

I was just going to say you should play one of your forwards as a DLF-S and then i just noticed the post by Fosse and just shows coming from another guy that this way works to prevent your forwards from getting isolated. F9 is another role that can help link your midfield to your forwards but i'd say DLF-S is best using his strength to hold up the ball and its even better if he has the "Plays With Back To Goal" PPM or/and "Comes Deep To Get Ball".

I dont play this formation but with the lack of width, only having wing backs, this formation is by far best used to play a short passing possession style imo which should include at least a fluid team shape but i'd say preferably very fluid to keep the shape nice and compact which encourages short passing.

I've tried with DLF-s and any other supportive role upfront and nothing. My strikers can't score a single goal and their ratings are under seven permanently.

[cns180784]

5 hours ago, looping said:

I've tried with DLF-s and any other supportive role upfront and nothing. My strikers can't score a single goal and their ratings are under seven permanently.

Well i didnt say the DLF-S role would get him scoring goals i just said that it would prevent him getting isolated and cut off from the midfield. But i take it you're playing 2 up front and neither of them are scoring?

The funny thing is when i was managing Villa i was almost always playing 2 up front and one striker Jonathan Kodjia who is Villas' top goalscorer in real life only scored 1 goal for me all season despite having a number of decent chances in games before i got sacked after 25 games. Then in about half the amount of games i managed them, with a new manager Kodjia goes and scores 9. I dont know what it was but he just wasnt scoring for me, maybe you're having a similar problem.

[looping]

10 hours ago, cns180784 said:

Well i didnt say the DLF-S role would get him scoring goals i just said that it would prevent him getting isolated and cut off from the midfield. But i take it you're playing 2 up front and neither of them are scoring?

The funny thing is when i was managing Villa i was almost always playing 2 up front and one striker Jonathan Kodjia who is Villas' top goalscorer in real life only scored 1 goal for me all season despite having a number of decent chances in games before i got sacked after 25 games. Then in about half the amount of games i managed them, with a new manager Kodjia goes and scores 9. I dont know what it was but he just wasnt scoring for me, maybe you're having a similar problem.

I've used 6 different strikers and none of them score a decent number of goals (10 in a season=decent). Perhaps the problem is the support offered from behind. I don't know.

At the beginning it is not a problem. I get a lot of 1-0 0-1 but at some point I start conceding at least 1 goal in every match, permanently, so then, yes, it becomes a problem.

Anyway, this is not my thread and wouldn't be fair to the OP to hijack it with my never ending problems.

[cns180784]

9 hours ago, looping said:

I've used 6 different strikers and none of them score a decent number of goals (10 in a season=decent). Perhaps the problem is the support offered from behind. I don't know.

At the beginning it is not a problem. I get a lot of 1-0 0-1 but at some point I start conceding at least 1 goal in every match, permanently, so then, yes, it becomes a problem.

Anyway, this is not my thread and wouldn't be fair to the OP to hijack it with my never ending problems.

I doubt he's bothered i gave him advice, at least what i thought would work for him anyway.

If you're unsure of what the problem is whether it be your strikers not finishing chances or the rest of your team not creating chances for them then i'd start watching your games at least in comprehensive mode to find out why theres' a consistent lack of goals. Or an alternative is if you havent scored by half time then check the analysis. If you've had shots then watch the highlights of them, see what happens in the build up and see if it was a decent chance or not. Dont rely on what the match engine tells you is a half chance or clear cut chance, half the time a lot of chances dont get registered, and some supposed clear cut chances that the ME registers werent clear cut chances and probably just half chances at best. You need to decide for yourself how good the chance was by watching the highlight.

My best advice though is to watch the match. What i do is when theres' been a decent chance against me or for my side and whether it was scored or not, i rewind and watch it again to check on players' positions, whether they're closing down or not etc. Its important to get to the bottom of why a chance was created but as the issue for you is not scoring, then well if you're creating chances for your strikers and they're not putting them away then maybe you need to take the pressure off them by giving more midfielders/wingers.attacking FB's attack duties and try just giving both or at least one of your strikers a support duty. If your midfield start chipping in with more goals and you start winning more games with more convincing scorelines like 2-0 or even 2-1 (as you're scoring more than 1) then naturally your whole team including strikers' morale will improve and you might find your strikers start scoring freely. Maybe your tactics relies on your strikers to score all the time as it sounds like it by the fact that you're not happy with their goals scored and you're often only scoring 1 a game.

[looping]

In a last and desperate attempt I started dropping my strikers into AM position. First one, then both. Nothing.

I am already watching games. I've been watching games for more than a year. I haven't played a single real save. Always sacked after a good starting run. I've used many different teams and tactics. Nothing.

I don't know if my players are isolated. I can't tell you watching games. I said that because they were not receiving and giving passes (on stats). But I can't tell you if they are isolated or what. Dropping them into AM makes them receive/give more passes so it seems they are more involved, but I can't tell you what's going on.

I lost 5 of the las 7 matches. I conceded 13 goals and scored 5. I'll be sacked soon. Again.

[cns180784]

2 hours ago, looping said:

In a last and desperate attempt I started dropping my strikers into AM position. First one, then both. Nothing.

I am already watching games. I've been watching games for more than a year. I haven't played a single real save. Always sacked after a good starting run. I've used many different teams and tactics. Nothing.

I don't know if my players are isolated. I can't tell you watching games. I said that because they were not receiving and giving passes (on stats). But I can't tell you if they are isolated or what. Dropping them into AM makes them receive/give more passes so it seems they are more involved, but I can't tell you what's going on.

I lost 5 of the las 7 matches. I conceded 13 goals and scored 5. I'll be sacked soon. Again.

So what is happening? are your mids/strikers/wingers getting in behind and having chances on goal and not converting? or are you just getting mostly restricted to long shots? how many shots are you having in the box? what happens are they blocked? when theres' a lack of shots in the box especially with no-one getting in behind the defence one on one with the keeper...what are you trying? you could try roam from positions. Are you playing a possession style short passing game or direct and fast? do you have tall strong forwards mixed with good pace? or are they better technically and mentally? (suiting more possession style). How are you conceding goals? long ball over the top? one CB closing down leaving a gap behind?

You need to nail down where your attacks are breaking down. Your AM caught in possession? were there passing options on nearby? is he instructed to dribble more? if so then dribble less. You know if players are isolated by how many passing combinations they're involved in. Check this out in the analysis for passes (you also get this in post match analysis if you have a data analyst). You should show us what your tactics are, if you cant or dont know how to attach a photo then just tell us but also roles/duties for players.

[Rashidi]

Guys stop hijacking the OP's thread or infractions will follow. Start your own thread with your own issues or face the penalties.