The Diamond is back - looking for input

[alinp]

Hi All

It was nice to see the return of the diamond to LFC last weekend v West Ham.  Does anyone have any thoughts about what this would look like FM wise.

I'm thinking of the below re. formation, roles & duties + probably Control & Fluid, but does anyone have any alternate thoughts or suggested TI's/PI's?

 

 

[2calvin]

Is that a replication? If it is I can't help you. If not, 2xCF? I would change the CF-s to a DLF-a or Treq so you have a creator/scorer partnership going on. Also in a diamond the LCM and RCM are shuttlers, workhorses basically. They definitely need to help your full backs out, I don't want a fancy playmaker doing that job. Idk maybe Coutinho played there. It's unusual though to see a playmaker in that position in real life, either the ACM (think Riquelme) or DM (Pirlo) are more suitable.

Fwiw my 4312 setup is currently

BWMs on the right, CMd in the middle, CMs on the left and AMs or APs depending what I feel like. DLFa and AF up top

For the BWM and CM Im still tinkering with hold position. In theory it should be the way because I already have 3 advanced players + 2 full back bombing on

[alinp]

7 minutes ago, 2calvin said:

Is that a replication? If it is I can't help you. If not, 2xCF? I would change the CF-s to a DLF-a or Treq so you have a creator/scorer partnership going on. Also in a diamond the LCM and RCM are shuttlers, workhorses basically. They definitely need to help your full backs out, I don't want a fancy playmaker doing that job. Idk maybe Coutinho played there. It's unusual though to see a playmaker in that position in real life, either the ACM (think Riquelme) or DM (Pirlo) are more suitable.

Fwiw my 4312 setup is currently

BWMs on the right, CMd in the middle, CMs on the left and AMs or APs depending what I feel like. DLFa and AF up top

For the BWM and CM Im still tinkering with hold position. In theory it should be the way because I already have 3 advanced players + 2 full back bombing on

Yes, the idea is to look at what Klopp did on Sunday and see how this replicates in FM - I'm going to assume you didn't see the game, highlights or any analysis from it based upon your comments.

[BoxToBox]

I'd drop the wingbacks down to the DR/L strata, defending high up like that will leave you very open to being countered with only two CB's, especially with both CB's as stoppers who'll close down more.

[alinp]

1 minute ago, BoxToBox said:

I'd drop the wingbacks down to the DR/L strata, defending high up like that will leave you very open to being countered with only two CB's, especially with both CB's as stoppers who'll close down more.

In a world where the HB function worked correctly, I'd agree & that would be sensible, however to get the CB's to split & HB drop in, the WB's need to be higher. 

I'm not committed to the 2 CD's being Stoppers, but I do think they both try to intercept a lot, which makes me lean in that direction, however a Closing Down TI or PI could possibly produce the same affect.

[TheJanitor]

Don't think Emre was Half-back though? Seemed to serve different purpose in the team, maybe a DLP/d ? A point about Sturridge, I think CF/s is wrong for how he played against West Ham. He was often high and to the right. When he got the ball, he cut to his stronger left to take the shot- maybe a Ramudeuter, since he was definitely roaming a lot and made central movements off the ball. His goal was a perfect example of that.

[alinp]

2 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Don't think Emre was Half-back though? Seemed to serve different purpose in the team, maybe a DLP/d ? A point about Sturridge, I think CF/s is wrong for how he played against West Ham. He was often high and to the right. When he got the ball, he cut to his stronger left to take the shot- maybe a Ramudeuter, since he was definitely roaming a lot and made central movements off the ball. His goal was a perfect example of that.

I think there were times when Can did drop between to two CDs, but it could be argued that, particularly as the game went on, he moved higher.  Not sure DLPd though, as to me it looked like he gave up any kind of playmaking role to Coutinho, who, on reflection, I think is probably an RPM rather than AP, given he was both picking the ball up off the back 4/Can one minute and driving at their defence the other (see his first goal).

Both strikers roles are truly up for debate.  Not sure you get the correct effect with the Raum, especially as I tend to find players in the AMR/L slots often stay too wide for my liking.  I could add Move Into Channels to the role (it already roams) and train the "beats offside trap" PPM perhaps?  Origi, tbf, is probably an AF?

[TheJanitor]

Actually, Emre Can passed the ball more than Coutinho did. I wouldn't change Cou's role to RPM. Remember, he scored twice, had six shots (more than any other player on than pitch) and generally had an attacking mindest that you don't normally get from a RPM.

[alinp]

23 minutes ago, TheJanitor said:

Actually, Emre Can passed the ball more than Coutinho did. I wouldn't change Cou's role to RPM. Remember, he scored twice, had six shots (more than any other player on than pitch) and generally had an attacking mindest that you don't normally get from a RPM.

So it seems, but between himself, the 2 CD's & Milner mainly it looks like.  I'd be inclined to suggest possibly a more re-cycling role than playmaker - poss Anchor or just simply a DM(D)?

Will an AP drop back and pick up the ball?  On the graphic, the RPM sits higher than an AP(S) but not quite as high as an AP(A).  I think I need to experiment with both options for a few games.

[summatsupeer]

Didn't see the game so can't contribute to the recreation.  

Just want to remind you that managers will make adjustments during games, some are dramatic and obvious, others are slight adjustments so trying to recreate what they did all game in a single FM tactic is usually impossible.

[alinp]

2 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Didn't see the game so can't contribute to the recreation.  

Just want to remind you that managers will make adjustments during games, some are dramatic and obvious, others are slight adjustments so trying to recreate what they did all game in a single FM tactic is usually impossible.

Appreciated.  We all like to occasionally try and re-create an approximation of real life tactics, however an example of your point would be that it is most likely the case that Can's role varied between what we'd descried as an HB, sometimes a DLP, sometimes an Anchor etc....

Getting to what he was "mostly" is probably where I want to get to.

[TheJanitor]

1 hour ago, alinp said:

So it seems, but between himself, the 2 CD's & Milner mainly it looks like.  I'd be inclined to suggest possibly a more re-cycling role than playmaker - poss Anchor or just simply a DM(D)?

Will an AP drop back and pick up the ball?  On the graphic, the RPM sits higher than an AP(S) but not quite as high as an AP(A).  I think I need to experiment with both options for a few games.

I'd still go for a DLP, maybe DM. This ensures ball is circulated through him and he won't have to be over ambitious with his passing. Definitely not Anchor.

Coutinho will get deep due to his natural position. He might not get as deep as you would like, but probably the best role for him.

[alinp]

1 hour ago, TheJanitor said:

I'd still go for a DLP, maybe DM. This ensures ball is circulated through him and he won't have to be over ambitious with his passing. Definitely not Anchor.

Coutinho will get deep due to his natural position. He might not get as deep as you would like, but probably the best role for him.

Thanks - I'm going to run with DM(D) & AP(A) for a bit & see how it goes.

Up front, I've now got an AF(A) for the Origi role and a CF(S) with Move into Channels for the Sturridge role.

Otherwise roles/duties still as graphic.

Also still Control/Fluid but I've added Close Down More & Play out of Defence.

[yonko]

@alinp 

LOL once again a discussion about the role of the DMC on Liverpool Team.

You don't seem to like the DLP-D role very much do you?

[retrodude09]

I would think a standard 4-3-1-2 would work especially if you select the correct roles & duties. Secondly, I don't see neither Milner or Clyne as a CWB, not for Klopp or anybody. I should think this would be fine:

GK: Sweeper Keeper - Defend/Support (Mignolet)

RB: Wing Back - Support/Attack (Clyne)

CB: Ball Playing Defender - Stopper (Matip)

CB: Central Defender - Defend (Lovren)

LB: Wing Back - Support (Milner) 

RCM: BBM/Central Midfielder - Support (Wignaldum)

CM: Deep Lying Playmaker - Defend (Emre Can)

LCM: Roaming Playmaker - Support (Coutinho) I think this could be one of the hardest roles to nail down tbh.

AMC: Advanced Playmaker - Support/Attack (Lallana)

ST: Complete Forward - Support (Sturridge)

ST: Advanced Forward - Attack (Origi)

& you would probably want Very Fluid & Control, especially if counter pressing is a key component for your replication. 

[alinp]

1 hour ago, yonko said:

@alinp 

LOL once again a discussion about the role of the DMC on Liverpool Team.

You don't seem to like the DLP-D role very much do you?

Don't have a problem with it at all - just not sure it's the role Can played last weekend.

[alinp]

21 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

LCM: Roaming Playmaker - Support (Coutinho) I think this could be one of the hardest roles to nail down tbh.

Indeed, as per earlier discussion - sticking with AP(A) for now.

21 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

AMC: Advanced Playmaker - Support/Attack (Lallana)

No, no, no - most definitely not a "playmaker" in Sunday's team.  I've got the role as a standard AM(A) at the moment, but it could be argued that Dribble More & Roaming could be added.

25 minutes ago, retrodude09 said:

CM: Deep Lying Playmaker - Defend (Emre Can)

Possibly...  Would he drop deep enough from CM?  At times he was the deepest player.

[alinp]

FWIW, average positions from whoscored.com below

[alinp]

40 minutes ago, alinp said:

Possibly...  Would he drop deep enough from CM?  At times he was the deepest player.

Ran my own test on this... only 1 game, so probably too early to say, but overall I'd say not.  Occasionally dropped deep, but not deepest + IMO got drawn forward too often for my liking.  I'll play a few more before deciding on the idea - although not tonight.

[yonko]

7 hours ago, alinp said:

Don't have a problem with it at all - just not sure it's the role Can played last weekend.

Statistics from the game indicate that Can did play as DLP though. He saw and passed the ball more often than Coutinho. If Phil is AP or RPM then Can surely should be the DLP-D then.

Have you tried it in FM to see how it works?

[Rashidi]

Yeah I made the 442 diamond that Liverpool used on one of my shows earlier this season, can't remember which one but the diamond works in the game. I had the Can player playing like a DM/DLP, when he picks up a yellow card, I just change him to a DLP, used WBs on either flank with the left flank, being defensive. That duty ensures he only goes up when its a good idea to, the right flank was on attacking...and he bombed up at will. On hindsight it should have been support. In midfield its on MC to move into channels like Winjaldum, in the middle its Couti. To mimic Liverpools press, I played on attacking/overload fluid. I can give more details later, seeing how obsessed an LFC fan I am.

[alinp]

2 hours ago, yonko said:

Statistics from the game indicate that Can did play as DLP though. He saw and passed the ball more often than Coutinho. If Phil is AP or RPM then Can surely should be the DLP-D then.

Have you tried it in FM to see how it works?

See post above yours... I tried it from the CM position, but unsure. I still think he was more of a recycler than playmaker, giving that up to Phil, but I do need to test the options.

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Yeah I made the 442 diamond that Liverpool used on one of my shows earlier this season, can't remember which one but the diamond works in the game. I had the Can player playing like a DM/DLP, when he picks up a yellow card, I just change him to a DLP, used WBs on either flank with the left flank, being defensive. That duty ensures he only goes up when its a good idea to, the right flank was on attacking...and he bombed up at will. On hindsight it should have been support. In midfield its on MC to move into channels like Winjaldum, in the middle its Couti. To mimic Liverpools press, I played on attacking/overload fluid. I can give more details later, seeing how obsessed an LFC fan I am.

That would be great interesting to see. 

I've was contemplating CWB(S) on the right with WB(S) left. I think they both get forward enough to merit the duty, but I guess if you played Att/Fluid that would still make the WB(D) fairly attacking.

[Rashidi]

@alinp CWB would be more accurate cos Clyne did drift into the middle on several occassions, if someone wanted an accurate yet vulnerable backline I would go for CWB, otherwise a WB(A) would suffice, but we won't see the drifts into the middle he occasionally did. Personally I think the diamond that Liverpool plays is very doable in the current engine, for several reasons. Liverpool overload the centre to release the flanks, thats possible. The 4312 is easy to create at the moment, so the diamond shouldn't be hard to do because the change you make from my 4312 is just dropping the MC(d) deeper into a DLP(d) slot. The one thing I love about the diamond and have always loved is the fact that the two backs are so easy to adapt into the game. You can play them in various configurations.

[alinp]

@Rashidi I had a browse through your YouTube channel this morning, but couldn't see anything that was obviously what you mention earlier.  If you do find a link you could share, that would be helpful.

Meanwhile, I've tried a couple of matches using a 4312 set up (as suggested by @retrodude09 earlier - my roles though), but not convinced.  I'm of the opinion that it works better with the DM in the DM strata (whether that's as a DM/DLP or whatever  )

[Jessan]

4 hours ago, Rashidi said:

@alinp CWB would be more accurate cos Clyne did drift into the middle on several occassions, if someone wanted an accurate yet vulnerable backline I would go for CWB, otherwise a WB(A) would suffice, but we won't see the drifts into the middle he occasionally did. Personally I think the diamond that Liverpool plays is very doable in the current engine, for several reasons. Liverpool overload the centre to release the flanks, thats possible. The 4312 is easy to create at the moment, so the diamond shouldn't be hard to do because the change you make from my 4312 is just dropping the MC(d) deeper into a DLP(d) slot. The one thing I love about the diamond and have always loved is the fact that the two backs are so easy to adapt into the game. You can play them in various configurations.

It would be interesting to your take on the diamond and especially on Liverpool's diamond since Coutinho played as an AP(not sure if it was AP but atleast a playmaking role) in the MC slot while most of the time you would put the AP in the AMC slot.

[yonko]

10 hours ago, alinp said:

See post above yours... I tried it from the CM position, but unsure. I still think he was more of a recycler than playmaker, giving that up to Phil, but I do need to test the options.

Sorry, didn't see it.

I think if you play Can at DM as DLP-D he will drop deep for sure. And you will see the CDs split nicely with WBs pushed up into the actual WB positions.

[alinp]

On 2017-5-18 at 19:09, yonko said:

Sorry, didn't see it.

I think if you play Can at DM as DLP-D he will drop deep for sure. And you will see the CDs split nicely with WBs pushed up into the actual WB positions.

I have indeed been using the DLP(D) role as the default for the DM more recently, changing it to a DM if I feel there's a need for something a little more aggressive.

I'm also experimenting with an F9-CF(S) combo up front to replicate Firmino & Sturridge.