The 4231 Explained

[shadster]

Some people are complaining about long balls, but everybody needs to study if the tactics and TI suits their team. A team with slow defenders will have a more difficult time with such high line, I think..

[steve dewilde]

Hello guys,

4231 is my prefered formation and always struggle to balance it out as a lot of people here, i ve tinkered my 4231 Man Utd since a couple of days, seems pretty solid but i ve some concerns about my strikers partnership (Complete forward support + Shadow striker) and both wide partnerships on both flanks, any feedback on those roles and mentality are more than welcome please, especially in terms building the play and having enough players to finish chances. Am i on the right track, yet always afraid to overdo it, here are few sceenies on a sample match: Man Utd 2 - Spurs 1

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by steve dewilde

[Powello]

13 minutes ago, steve dewilde said:

Hello guys,

4231 is my prefered formation and always struggle to balance it out as a lot of people here, i ve tinkered my 4231 Man Utd since a couple of days, seems pretty solid but i ve some concerns about my strikers partnership (Complete forward support + Shadow striker) and both wide partnerships on both flanks, any feedback on those roles and mentality are more than welcome please, especially in terms building the play and having enough players to finish chances. Am i on the right track, yet always afraid to overdo it, here are few sceenies on a sample match: Man Utd 2 - Spurs 1

 

I would put the LB on attack duty, the left side needs some oomph or at least swap the CM and BWM around. Plus I would put the CF on ATT and swap the SS for either an AP or AM on support

[herne79]

22 minutes ago, steve dewilde said:

Hello guys,

4231 is my prefered formation and always struggle to balance it out as a lot of people here, i ve tinkered my 4231 Man Utd since a couple of days, seems pretty solid but i ve some concerns about my strikers partnership (Complete forward support + Shadow striker) and both wide partnerships on both flanks, any feedback on those roles and mentality are more than welcome please, especially in terms building the play and having enough players to finish chances. Am i on the right track, yet always afraid to overdo it, here are few sceenies on a sample match: Man Utd 2 - Spurs 1

Have you read Cleon's opening posts?  If you have, re-read it and have a think about your midfield for starters.

[steve dewilde]

Yes i ve read it and changed one role yet i refrain from playing both my central mids in deep (dm) positions

edit: both central mids changed: dlp-d (Matic) btb-s (Pogba)

Edited November 6, 2017 by steve dewilde

[herne79]

3 minutes ago, steve dewilde said:

Yes i ve read it and changed one role yet i refrain from playing both my central mids in deep (dm) positions

It's not about the positions, it's about the roles and duties.

[mikcheck]

Good that you're Man Utd, for most games it shouldnt be much of problem, but that midfield par is asking for trouble.

[Cleon]

7 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It's not about the positions, it's about the roles and duties.

I was just about to post this and your response before.

@steve dewilde You're asking for advice on your build up play etc. However you're the one who should be telling us what you see in the build up play not the other way around. Only you have access to this. If you have some specifics for us to help with then sure we can help. However if its just general advice then I believe I covered everything you are asking advice for in the opening posts.

[steve dewilde]

actually i didnt have particular trouble in central mid as bwm and cma but ofc i wont play that way every game it was just the particular match at home i feel confident enough to play Matic and Pogba are quality and we didnt give a snif to spurs concerning the build i was looking for advice as i noticed Lukaku have not much options when receiving the ball upfront except the shadow striker making some runs but not on consistent basis, on left side (i might be wrong) that Martial receive the ball half of the pitch, makes some diagonal runs dribbling and ends up loosing the ball quite often, on the right Mkhi is doing good job as winger til he has to cross it (might be coz if he s not quite a winger and poor crosser (12): most crosses are for keeper. and both wide players dont receive much from both full backs in attacking phases, full backs are acting quite carefully by giving passes to Martial and Mkhi, unsure what to do there coz if i change them (fullbacks) to more attacking minded, i might end up get caught on flanks..

Edited November 6, 2017 by steve dewilde

[Cleon]

37 minutes ago, steve dewilde said:

actually i didnt have particular trouble in central mid as bwm and cma but ofc i wont play that way every game it was just the particular match at home i feel confident enough to play Matic and Pogba are quality and we didnt give a snif to spurs concerning the build i was looking for advice as i noticed Lukaku have not much options when receiving the ball upfront except the shadow striker making some runs but not on consistent basis, on left side (i might be wrong) that Martial receive the ball half of the pitch, makes some diagonal runs dribbling and ends up loosing the ball quite often, on the right Mkhi is doing good job as winger til he has to cross it (might be coz if he s not quite a winger and poor crosser (12): most crosses are for keeper. and both wide players dont receive much from both full backs in attacking phases, full backs are acting quite carefully by giving passes to Martial and Mkhi, unsure what to do there coz if i change them (fullbacks) to more attacking minded, i might end up get caught on flanks..

dont receive much from both full backs in attacking phases, full backs are acting quite carefully by giving passes to Martial and Mkhi, unsure what to do there coz if i change them (fullbacks) to more attacking minded, i might end up get caught on flanks..

That middle pairing does cause trouble you probably just didn't notice it but that doesn't mean it doesn't. It's impossible for that combo to now cause you issue. This is why you shouldn't ask general advice because you say something doesn't happen when it does because you likely didn't see it. So dealing in specifics is much better because we deal with actual issues then and don't say something happens like blah blah and for you to say nah it doesn't.

Lukaku is probably having issues because no-one in the side is  supplying him the ball apart from the winger. I've spoke about this throughout the thread and a few times on the last page. There's no supply to any of the players really. Everyone seems to be focused on running. Your roles don't really link together and provide any kind of balance. I'm not saying they don't work as such but its not consistent. Everything about your set up I touched upon already in the opening posts. It doesn't seem like much thought has gone into the role selection at all.

Have a think about who you want to be the main scorer then build roles around him that allow for this. 

[steve dewilde]

Ok tweaked a bit during friendlies til Euro Super cup against R. Madrid:

Very happy : Possession (i want that kind of play) passes ration excellent, kinda an achievement against technically gifted side like real, only ten shots but 4 were half chances 1 clear chance, Real 20 shots: 5 on target only 1 clear chance 3 half, Martial was way better (yet no shot during match)

Not happy: still looking to get a decent winger so i played Mata on right winger : aweful pass completion same as Lukaku despite changing his role and Mkhi behind as AM-s, i feel Lukaku way wastefull i dont know if its my tactic or his passing (11) and on top with 19 finish 15 composure he should finish way better

 

[steve dewilde]

6 minutes ago, Cleon said:

That middle pairing does cause trouble you probably just didn't notice it but that doesn't mean it doesn't. It's impossible for that combo to now cause you issue. This is why you shouldn't ask general advice because you say something doesn't happen when it does because you likely didn't see it. So dealing in specifics is much better because we deal with actual issues then and don't say something happens like blah blah and for you to say nah it doesn't.

Lukaku is probably having issues because no-one in the side is  supplying him the ball apart from the winger. I've spoke about this throughout the thread and a few times on the last page. There's no supply to any of the players really. Everyone seems to be focused on running. Your roles don't really link together and provide any kind of balance. I'm not saying they don't work as such but its not consistent. Everything about your set up I touched upon already in the opening posts. It doesn't seem like much thought has gone into the role selection at all.

Have a think about who you want to be the main scorer then build roles around him that allow for this. 

Thanks Mate, thats the problem i ve hard time to spot whats wrong about partnerships, overall im very happy the way the team play and defend, i just need to find a set up where Lukaku or any lone striker and my IF will take a fair share of goals without unbalance the rest...

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, steve dewilde said:

Thanks Mate, thats the problem i ve hard time to spot whats wrong about partnerships, overall im very happy the way the team play and defend, i just need to find a set up where Lukaku or any lone striker and my IF will take a fair share of goals without unbalance the rest...

I got asking this earlier and replied to someone else in a DM. It kind of fits your issues here and possibly the way you think about things. So to give you an idea;

I see this question asked an awful lot;

Why does my winger not pass the ball and cross like he should? Or why doesn’t he pick out my striker in the box?

So what it boils down to is, why doesn't the winger do what he should be doing?

It could be a number of reasons why this happens really, BUT the most common issues would be;

• You use the wrong role
• Lack of support
• No-one in the box to cross too
• Being forced into making a quick decision
• The winger being too advanced up the pitch

Wrong role

The bread and butter of the winger role is him taking people on and crossing. Those are the two main factors of a winger's job. A lot of people use a winger but then expect him to do something he doesn’t really do. So if you don’t want him staying out wide majority of the time, attempting to beat his marker and putting crosses into the box then this is not the role you want.

Lack of Support

If the player has a lack of support then realistically his options are limited. This then means the winger needs passing options that are either alongside of him or in front of him, if he doesn’t have this then his crosses could be a bit erratic.  So what you need to do is pause the game when the winger first receives the ball and have a look around at what kind of area he picked the ball up in and to see what your players around him are doing. Then watch the move and see what he does with the ball, again pausing it and looking around just before he releases it. This will tell you everything you need to know about what type of supply he is doing and who to.

Lack of Crossing Options

This is one issue that I must see ten times a day. I see people create tactics that utilises wingers then use striker roles that focus on the player not playing in the box. I’m not saying strikers who drop back never get into the box but you need to realise than if a striker is dropping deep then he’s moving away from the box. The same can also be said if he is starting in a deeper position due to being on a defensive or supportive role, he might not be able to keep up with play and get into the box. So it’s worth looking out for this. It might also be worth noting that you need several bodies in and around the box to make use of crosses, if not, then the opposition can easily defend against one person in the box nine times out of ten due to the numbers advantage they have.

Being Forced Into Making a Quick Decision

If a player is being closed down heavily or forced into a blind alley then they’ll always struggle and it’s not uncommon to see them make a bad decision. Instead of taking their man on you might see them attempt a pass or even a cross from deep. So if you think the winger isn’t doing what he should be then go into the analysis tab and look back at one of the games he struggled in and have a look at what he is doing when he gets the ball and what the opposition are making him do.

Being Advanced

Player positioning is everything, so if he is high up the pitch then this relies on someone getting the ball to him, to stop him becoming isolated. The higher he is the less likely he can influence the game by running at people and putting crosses into the box as it can make him way ahead of everyone else. This can actually be an issue for fast players when they run with the ball if the players in the supporting roles are slower than him. They can struggle to keep up with him or they struggle to get in and around the box. So keep an eye out for were he is positioned on the pitch and ask yourself if he is too advanced? If so try using a support roles. If he’s not high enough then use an attacking one. But also be aware that it’s also the players around him you need to keep an eye and make sure they are linking up exactly how you expect them too.

[steve dewilde]

Thanks Cleon, very informative as usual, i ll take all this above in mind while working on my tactic tonight

[jc577]

@Cleon When using a deep 4231 does it make sense having a support duty playmaker on the wing? My thinking is that angled through balls to the striker are harder to deal with than vertical passes. So the front four would be: IF-A, AM-S, AP-S; AF-A.. does this seem balanced to you? Ideally I'd like to have a winger swinging in crosses but I don't have anyone capable, so this would have to come from the full-backs.

[Guest El Payaso]

@Cleon or anyone else: do you have any opinions about the system that I have created with Las Palmas?

The aim mainly is to hit the opponents on breaks and also to retain possession as that is what my board wants. 

[Bigpapa42]

4 hours ago, Cleon said:

I got asking this earlier and replied to someone else in a DM. It kind of fits your issues here and possibly the way you think about things. So to give you an idea;

I see this question asked an awful lot;

Why does my winger not pass the ball and cross like he should? Or why doesn’t he pick out my striker in the box?

So what it boils down to is, why doesn't the winger do what he should be doing?

It could be a number of reasons why this happens really, BUT the most common issues would be;

• You use the wrong role
• Lack of support
• No-one in the box to cross too
• Being forced into making a quick decision
• The winger being too advanced up the pitch

Another great post. I've been guilty of this myself more times than I would like to admit. Focusing too much one particularly player and how they performing, and kinda forgetting how it all fits together. Something as simple as a player being isolated and not seeing the ball, then finally having it click that setting a shorter passing TI restricts them as an option too often because of where they are positioned.

Set up a 4-2-3-1 deep with a similar basic setup to the OP. Played thru a couple of friendlies so hardly a basis for celebration, but oh man.... Looking good. I don't think I've moved away from a Very Fluid tactic since FM16 and while a Very Fluid 4-1-4-1 was working nicely, but not "7 goals in the first half of a friendly" nicely. Eager to see what it does against real competition. Tinkering with the midfield three to find the best combo with the CV bombing forward from DM should be fun.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Bigpapa42

[saware]

5 hours ago, jc577 said:

@Cleon When using a deep 4231 does it make sense having a support duty playmaker on the wing? My thinking is that angled through balls to the striker are harder to deal with than vertical passes. So the front four would be: IF-A, AM-S, AP-S; AF-A.. does this seem balanced to you? Ideally I'd like to have a winger swinging in crosses but I don't have anyone capable, so this would have to come from the full-backs.

Obviously not Cleon but just thought I’d share my experience using an AP out wide in a similar setup. 

Found it can work well, especially if you have a full back take advantage by being on an attack duty.

I’d try a more defensive role on the right hand side of the midfield 2, someone who’ll cover for the full back in their absence whilst they venture forward.

Having the striker on AF should mean he’s in the box for any resulting crosses, but it might not be the best role against teams that defend deep as it’ll be unlikely he’ll get in behind & onto the through balls. I usually end up going with a CF/S or DLF/A if this is the case.   

[yonko]

9 hours ago, steve dewilde said:

Ok tweaked a bit during friendlies til Euro Super cup against R. Madrid:

Very happy : Possession (i want that kind of play) passes ration excellent, kinda an achievement against technically gifted side like real, only ten shots but 4 were half chances 1 clear chance, Real 20 shots: 5 on target only 1 clear chance 3 half, Martial was way better (yet no shot during match)

Not happy: still looking to get a decent winger so i played Mata on right winger : aweful pass completion same as Lukaku despite changing his role and Mkhi behind as AM-s, i feel Lukaku way wastefull i dont know if its my tactic or his passing (11) and on top with 19 finish 15 composure he should finish way better

 

I gotta ask, why don't you set up Martial and Lukaku as scoring threats, while having Mkhitaryan and Mata as suppliers? Do you really need Pogba making runs with 4 attacking players ahead of him?

I would use Martial as IF-A and Mata as AP-S. Get yourself a nice attacking fullback on the right who can supply also. And switch the midfield paring so the Defend duty is MCR to cover for the attacking fullback and link with the AM-S + AP-S.

[Cleon]

10 hours ago, jc577 said:

@Cleon When using a deep 4231 does it make sense having a support duty playmaker on the wing? My thinking is that angled through balls to the striker are harder to deal with than vertical passes. So the front four would be: IF-A, AM-S, AP-S; AF-A.. does this seem balanced to you? Ideally I'd like to have a winger swinging in crosses but I don't have anyone capable, so this would have to come from the full-backs.

Try it and see? I don't mind offering advice but I'd rather do it after you've tried something not before because then we can deal in with specific issues. If I give players the answers before they've tried something then I'm doing basically doing the hard work for them 

Also remember the other 6 outfield players are just as important and will be the key to any kind of balance.

9 hours ago, El Payaso said:

@Cleon or anyone else: do you have any opinions about the system that I have created with Las Palmas?

The aim mainly is to hit the opponents on breaks and also to retain possession as that is what my board wants. 

The one posted in this thread? My answer would be the same as above. If you want help/advice then tell me specifics about what is/isn't happening when you watch how it plays in the game.

8 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Another great post. I've been guilty of this myself more times than I would like to admit. Focusing too much one particularly player and how they performing, and kinda forgetting how it all fits together. Something as simple as a player being isolated and not seeing the ball, then finally having it click that setting a shorter passing TI restricts them as an option too often because of where they are positioned.

Set up a 4-2-3-1 deep with a similar basic setup to the OP. Played thru a couple of friendlies so hardly a basis for celebration, but oh man.... Looking good. I don't think I've moved away from a Very Fluid tactic since FM16 and while a Very Fluid 4-1-4-1 was working nicely, but not "7 goals in the first half of a friendly" nicely. Eager to see what it does against real competition. Tinkering with the midfield three to find the best combo with the CV bombing forward from DM should be fun.

haha cheers. Sometimes its the simple things eh  that are so obvious we don't actually see them.

4 hours ago, saware said:

Obviously not Cleon but just thought I’d share my experience using an AP out wide in a similar setup. 

Found it can work well, especially if you have a full back take advantage by being on an attack duty.

I’d try a more defensive role on the right hand side of the midfield 2, someone who’ll cover for the full back in their absence whilst they venture forward.

Having the striker on AF should mean he’s in the box for any resulting crosses, but it might not be the best role against teams that defend deep as it’ll be unlikely he’ll get in behind & onto the through balls. I usually end up going with a CF/S or DLF/A if this is the case.   

Some decent advice however he isn't really set up to cross the ball, so crosses would likely be wasted with how he's set the front 4 up. So for me focusing on the build up would be pretty important so his front 4 have a good supply for the roles he has selected and what he expects from them.

[Spartak Trigger]

You say in the first post that a 4231 is one of the trickiest formations to get right which is presumably why i struggle with it! Are there any formations that are a bit easier to get a basic outline correct? I am presuming a 442 is one but are there any others?

[Guest El Payaso]

@Cleon like I told: the team looks quite good in terms of slow build ups and obviously has the potential to retain possession and to score from those. But on the breaks the situation often is that the team plays the ball early to the striker and while especially the attack duties would be expected to be rushing forward aggressively they actually start jogging or even walking instead of trying to get higher forward than the striker is.

In terms of defending we're doing well based on goals conceded as we usually don't concede but what I see a lot is that the opposition strikers are running a riot as they find space easily by coming deep and my DMs and CBs cannot cope with that and this happens even when the AI uses silly combinations like AF and poacher as two strikers. We should be strong in the middle but aren't really. The huge amount of offsides that the teams create is keeping the clean sheets for us. 

I would like to be better at breaking forward with speed and shutting down the middle of the park. 

[Cleon]

Quote

 like I told: the team looks quite good in terms of slow build ups and obviously has the potential to retain possession and to score from those. But on the breaks the situation often is that the team plays the ball early to the striker and while especially the attack duties would be expected to be rushing forward aggressively they actually start jogging or even walking instead of trying to get higher forward than the striker is.

Attack duties are already high up the pitch though in terms of the supporting players behind. So if you want to break as a unit then you need to use roles that allow for breaks. Remember the players do what You've instructed them to do. Now if this is how you've set up;

GK: GK (Chichizola) 

DL: FB(A) Castellano

DC: CD(D) Pigas

DC: BPD(D) Lemos

DR: FB(S) Michel

DML: DM(D) Castellano

DMR: Mez(S) Samper

ML: WM(S) Vitolo

MC: CM(A) Viera

MR: WGR(A) Halilovic

ST: CF(S) Calleri

Then who is the player linking everyone together? I see lots of runners but no link player or creative outlet at all. I don't understand how the balls gets to those attacking players and even if they do get the ball, who is supposed to help? Also your mentality you used will impact this and I see you mentioned control, is that what you use?

Quote

In terms of defending we're doing well based on goals conceded as we usually don't concede but what I see a lot is that the opposition strikers are running a riot as they find space easily by coming deep and my DMs and CBs cannot cope with that and this happens even when the AI uses silly combinations like AF and poacher as two strikers. We should be strong in the middle but aren't really. The huge amount of offsides that the teams create is keeping the clean sheets for us. 

Then you're set up wrong if your defenders and DC's cannot cope. You have 4 player here and they should be able to deal with 90% of situations comfortably. If I was you I'd use the analysis tab and watch back moves where you feel these players aren't doing what you expect. But when you find an example look at what happened before and the build up to the move as that will tell you everything about why they didn't do what you want.

Quote

I would like to be better at breaking forward with speed and shutting down the middle of the park. 

You keep saying this and I've mentioned it in the thread already but in able to break forward at speed you either need aggressive players in your own half who can get up and support quick enough or you need less aggressive players up top. If players are too high i.e your CM/Mez/W then realistically no-one is going to be able to get up in support quick enough. Breaking at speed doesn't equal really high advanced players. Sure its great to have that one outlet high up the pitch to build from but the key to any kind of quick break is the supporting players and how quickly they can get up to support players.

The more aggressive the mentality the less this will happen because you're already high up the pitch with the roles you use. 

[Cleon]

1 hour ago, Spartak Trigger said:

You say in the first post that a 4231 is one of the trickiest formations to get right which is presumably why i struggle with it! Are there any formations that are a bit easier to get a basic outline correct? I am presuming a 442 is one but are there any others?

It's tricky in the sense people don't think about it logically for the reasons I highlighted at the start. All formations are easy, what makes it difficult is if the person using the formation doesn't understand how it works. So what is easy depends on you and your understanding of the tactic. Which is why I stress the importance of understanding what you are using and focusing on the strengths and weakness to better understand.

[Valo]

I can't bring myself to use a role that has 'shoot more often' pre-set (Segundo Volante - Attack). My players already take way too many long shots and I have them all set to shoot less 

I tried a similar set-up to this with a SV-s and it went quite well, but he was often bunched up with the DM-s defensively and he didn't quite bomb forward like he would in an Attack mentality. 

[Armistice]

23 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Attack duties are already high up the pitch though in terms of the supporting players behind. So if you want to break as a unit then you need to use roles that allow for breaks. Remember the players do what You've instructed them to do. Now if this is how you've set up;

GK: GK (Chichizola) 

DL: FB(A) Castellano

DC: CD(D) Pigas

DC: BPD(D) Lemos

DR: FB(S) Michel

DML: DM(D) Castellano

DMR: Mez(S) Samper

ML: WM(S) Vitolo

MC: CM(A) Viera

MR: WGR(A) Halilovic

ST: CF(S) Calleri

Then who is the player linking everyone together? I see lots of runners but no link player or creative outlet at all. I don't understand how the balls gets to those attacking players and even if they do get the ball, who is supposed to help? Also your mentality you used will impact this and I see you mentioned control, is that what you use?

Not my system, but can you explain a bit more about this/these link-up player(s)? Does he/do they have to be playmaker role or what do you mean by that? Could a change of duty of his DM-D to DM-S lead to that link-up in some way?

Edited November 7, 2017 by Armistice

[Cleon]

9 minutes ago, Armistice said:

Not my system, but can you explain a bit more about this/these link-up player(s)? Does he/do they have to be playmaker role or what do you mean by that? Could a change of duty of his DM-D to DM-S lead to that link-up in some way?

Well link up players are the ones who will provide the attacking players with the ball and offer support. In the set up above, who is doing that? The main player for this will likely be the winger yet he will be starting too high to be involved in the initial build up probably. The user says he wants to build possession when not attacking yet break at speed when an opportunity arises. But I don't see how this can be achieved with the roles he has selected. It seems like a tactic focused on individuals rather than working as a unit.

He doesn't need a playmaker and can achieve it via other methods. The user is a bit in limbo imo and mixing styles and not quite doing any of them good but managing, that's what I suspect anyway. For what he describes and the way he wants to play, he should focus on the team working as a unit rather than splitting his attacking players and having them separated from the others. I think the duties rather than the roles would be the place I started first though when tweaking because I feel a few of them are the wrong way around. I'll not give too much info yet though as I like to see what people come up with on their own. 

I know I seem rather blunt and direct so I apologise but I don't want to waste time beating around the bush with people, I'd rather be forward with them to really help. Especially when most of what is being posted has already been mentioned in the opening posts and the replies since. I know the thread is getting quite large but it's worth people reading it all as there is far more info in the replies than the opening posts at times.

Hopefully next week when I add other sections, people will have a better idea of what to look for in their own saves etc.

[llado01]

@Cleon

 

When you refer to a link player, what type of player are you referring ? maybe a pm, or a deep-runner or to a wb with an attack duty, or maybe any of them?

 

thx

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, llado01 said:

@Cleon

 

When you refer to a link player, what type of player are you referring ? maybe a pm, or a deep-runner or to a wb with an attack duty, or maybe any of them?

 

thx

I've explained above.

A link player is someone who provides your more dangerous players the ball or who offer support. Or the players who make your side tick and feed the ball to the front players. It's not a specific role/duty or PPM. It's more how the role interacts with the rest of the players. Any role can essentially be a link player. But the roles you use around that player determine if he's a link or not.

[Cleon]

Just to be clear;

Quote

Link up play is the combination of passing, off the ball running and holding up the ball that allows a team to function as a coherent unit as they move up the pitch together.

It requires a load of different qualities: runners with stamina and pace, clever forwards that can hold up the ball until support arrives or make the best runs in behind defences for a killer throughball. It also needs midfielders who are composed in possession and creative decision makers under pressure.

When it all comes together, great link-up play is what makes a flowing move that ends in a goal look so emphatic, so poetic.

 

[aj_325]

Amazing tactic Cleon, changed my season with Arsenal, only change i made was the Defensive Mid support to Anchorman 

[Deisler26]

I noticed I was struggling in midfield with the half back coupling with the SV. The HB was constantly out of position, neither attacking or defending when I needed him. Cue moving the position to a Carrilero. Bang.

[Aksi92]

Can you expect to see all the negative/positive stuff using extended highlights? Is it the best to create tactic without PI and then add them if you are not happy with your player?

Edited November 7, 2017 by Aksi92

[Cleon]

46 minutes ago, Aksi92 said:

Can you expect to see all the negative/positive stuff using extended highlights? Is it the best to create tactic without PI and then add them if you are not happy with your player?

That makes more sense than starting with PI's and having no idea why you've used those PI's. I use TI's and PI's to either refine a style and get the player to do something he currently doesn't do and change the frequency of it. Or use TI's to maybe influence a game from time to time. Those are the only time I use PI's or TI's.

[ChrisBones1990]

that 4231 deep has definetly given me ideas for a tactic.

[tyro]

On 06/11/2017 at 18:33, Cleon said:

I got asking this earlier and replied to someone else in a DM. It kind of fits your issues here and possibly the way you think about things. So to give you an idea;

I see this question asked an awful lot;

Why does my winger not pass the ball and cross like he should? Or why doesn’t he pick out my striker in the box?

So what it boils down to is, why doesn't the winger do what he should be doing?

It could be a number of reasons why this happens really, BUT the most common issues would be;

• You use the wrong role
• Lack of support
• No-one in the box to cross too
• Being forced into making a quick decision
• The winger being too advanced up the pitch

Wrong role

The bread and butter of the winger role is him taking people on and crossing. Those are the two main factors of a winger's job. A lot of people use a winger but then expect him to do something he doesn’t really do. So if you don’t want him staying out wide majority of the time, attempting to beat his marker and putting crosses into the box then this is not the role you want.

Lack of Support

If the player has a lack of support then realistically his options are limited. This then means the winger needs passing options that are either alongside of him or in front of him, if he doesn’t have this then his crosses could be a bit erratic.  So what you need to do is pause the game when the winger first receives the ball and have a look around at what kind of area he picked the ball up in and to see what your players around him are doing. Then watch the move and see what he does with the ball, again pausing it and looking around just before he releases it. This will tell you everything you need to know about what type of supply he is doing and who to.

Lack of Crossing Options

This is one issue that I must see ten times a day. I see people create tactics that utilises wingers then use striker roles that focus on the player not playing in the box. I’m not saying strikers who drop back never get into the box but you need to realise than if a striker is dropping deep then he’s moving away from the box. The same can also be said if he is starting in a deeper position due to being on a defensive or supportive role, he might not be able to keep up with play and get into the box. So it’s worth looking out for this. It might also be worth noting that you need several bodies in and around the box to make use of crosses, if not, then the opposition can easily defend against one person in the box nine times out of ten due to the numbers advantage they have.

Being Forced Into Making a Quick Decision

If a player is being closed down heavily or forced into a blind alley then they’ll always struggle and it’s not uncommon to see them make a bad decision. Instead of taking their man on you might see them attempt a pass or even a cross from deep. So if you think the winger isn’t doing what he should be then go into the analysis tab and look back at one of the games he struggled in and have a look at what he is doing when he gets the ball and what the opposition are making him do.

Being Advanced

Player positioning is everything, so if he is high up the pitch then this relies on someone getting the ball to him, to stop him becoming isolated. The higher he is the less likely he can influence the game by running at people and putting crosses into the box as it can make him way ahead of everyone else. This can actually be an issue for fast players when they run with the ball if the players in the supporting roles are slower than him. They can struggle to keep up with him or they struggle to get in and around the box. So keep an eye out for were he is positioned on the pitch and ask yourself if he is too advanced? If so try using a support roles. If he’s not high enough then use an attacking one. But also be aware that it’s also the players around him you need to keep an eye and make sure they are linking up exactly how you expect them too.

This x1000. Especially the "lack of support" section (for me). 

Pause when the player gets the ball and without. I was able to tweak my tactic from no chances whatsoever to creating many and ending 3-0 with amazing movement. Just because of above. Just do it.

[Cleon]

17 minutes ago, tyro said:

This x1000. Especially the "lack of support" section (for me). 

Pause when the player gets the ball and without. I was able to tweak my tactic from no chances whatsoever to creating many and ending 3-0 with amazing movement. Just because of above. Just do it.

Thanks glad you found it helpful

[Guest El Payaso]

Thank you Cleon. I will try to improve it based on what you wrote. 

[Ji-Sung Park]

UEFA Super Cup, me vs Porto. 28 minutes played. Sergej as the segundo volante:

All goals from open play by the way.

Edited November 8, 2017 by Ji-Sung Park

[Str0aK]

Hi Cleon. I'm trying to set up my version of a 4-2-3-1 with Newcastle. I think I have a decent foundation but something isn't quite right. We're defensively solid for the most part and at times we've played some nice stuff going forward but not often enough and getting goals has been the main problem. I have to admit, I'm not quite sure why. As far as I can tell I have a good balance between players supporting the play, players making runs in behind, and a bit of variety as well. Would be much obliged if you can try to point me in the right direction, not asking you to do it for me.

Here's the formation:

GK: GK-d (Short Kicks, Distribute To Full Backs/Centre Backs)

DR: WB-s (Run Wide With Ball)

DC: CD-d

DC: CD-d

DL: FB-s 

DMR: DM-s 

DML: VOL-a 

MR: WM-a (Cut Inside, More Risky Passes)

ML: W-a 

AMC: AM-s (Roam, Move Into Channels, More Risky Passes, Get Further Forward)

ST: DLF-a

So I've pulled the wide midfielders back into the midfield strata. Standard, Flexible, Push Higher Up and Play Out Of Defence. Slightly lower line than you due to not having the quickest centre backs, and no additional closing down as I thought that would be less effective with MR/L than AMR/L. Much less adventurous full backs which I'm starting to think could be one of the reasons why we aren't scoring enough goals. Maybe one of the wide players needs a support duty to help link the play better? The AMC has been doing a good job of coming deep and getting involved even though I've given him Get Further Forward so I don't think that's the problem. Maybe I just don't have the right players for it? Shelvey has done well as the Segundo Volante but perhaps isn't complete enough for such a demanding role? Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Edited November 8, 2017 by Str0aK

[Blinklys]

6 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

UEFA Super Cup, me vs Porto. 28 minutes played. Sergej as the segundo volante:

All goals from open play by the way.

That's impressive. Very good player and well suited for the role.

[foreveryyoung]

On 11/1/2017 at 06:58, Cleon said:

Reserved

This is amazing and very helpful. Only issue is i'm trying to look for my full backs to overlap, but then there are acres of space where they should be in defence. Other than sacrificing the overlap, which is what i've come to, can anyone think of a solution?

 

Came 2nd in Serie A with AC Milan with tactic which is 4231, but with a DMCR (DLP) and MCL (BWM, SU). Works well-ish but don't score many goals but create a lot of chances.

 

Reckon having the RB more attacking with the DMCR to cover him would work with AMR as an IF?

[Cleon]

12 hours ago, Str0aK said:

Hi Cleon. I'm trying to set up my version of a 4-2-3-1 with Newcastle. I think I have a decent foundation but something isn't quite right. We're defensively solid for the most part and at times we've played some nice stuff going forward but not often enough and getting goals has been the main problem. I have to admit, I'm not quite sure why. As far as I can tell I have a good balance between players supporting the play, players making runs in behind, and a bit of variety as well. Would be much obliged if you can try to point me in the right direction, not asking you to do it for me.

Here's the formation:

GK: GK-d (Short Kicks, Distribute To Full Backs/Centre Backs)

DR: WB-s (Run Wide With Ball)

DC: CD-d

DC: CD-d

DL: FB-s 

DMR: DM-s 

DML: VOL-a 

MR: WM-a (Cut Inside, More Risky Passes)

ML: W-a 

AMC: AM-s (Roam, Move Into Channels, More Risky Passes, Get Further Forward)

ST: DLF-a

So I've pulled the wide midfielders back into the midfield strata. Standard, Flexible, Push Higher Up and Play Out Of Defence. Slightly lower line than you due to not having the quickest centre backs, and no additional closing down as I thought that would be less effective with MR/L than AMR/L. Much less adventurous full backs which I'm starting to think could be one of the reasons why we aren't scoring enough goals. Maybe one of the wide players needs a support duty to help link the play better? The AMC has been doing a good job of coming deep and getting involved even though I've given him Get Further Forward so I don't think that's the problem. Maybe I just don't have the right players for it? Shelvey has done well as the Segundo Volante but perhaps isn't complete enough for such a demanding role? Any advice would be much appreciated.

 

Why do you need the AMC going into the channels and getting further forward? What's the benefits of him roaming when you need him in a specific position? If you wanted him further forward why not just use an attacking duty? If he moves into channels maybe it doesn't benefit who you've set up or for the role the striker has? Maybe having someone more central is exactly what's needed, not someone drifting about?

Same with the wingback, why would you have him run wide the ball? What benefit does this offer? He's already wide and isn't really going to overlap because he's on a support duty and your WM is on attack on the same side. So what benefit does the PI bring to you? When he runs wide with the ball where is he actually going to and what's he going to do with it?

In the opening posts I spoke about how people who give the attacking players attacking duties (your ML/MR) and defensive players supporting duties separate the teams into two bands. The defensive players i.e the fullbacks will struggle to get up and support the wide players because there is such contrasting mentalities between them. How are the fullbacks going to provide support and link up them if those wide players have much higher starting points?

You're issues are you've gone top heavy and basically done mot of the things I advised not doing in the opening two posts and explaining the reasoning behind the advice. The squad isn't really a squad, it seems like the team is playing as two separate units. 

7 hours ago, foreveryyoung said:

This is amazing and very helpful. Only issue is i'm trying to look for my full backs to overlap, but then there are acres of space where they should be in defence. Other than sacrificing the overlap, which is what i've come to, can anyone think of a solution?

 

Came 2nd in Serie A with AC Milan with tactic which is 4231, but with a DMCR (DLP) and MCL (BWM, SU). Works well-ish but don't score many goals but create a lot of chances.

 

Reckon having the RB more attacking with the DMCR to cover him would work with AMR as an IF?

That's the thing it comes down to risk vs reward, you can't expect people to push on and overlap without it making you vulnerable at times. This is why its vital you create something well balanced that allows for this. Another option to what you mention would maybe use a team shape that brings players closer together like fluid? So if players do overlap the distance isn't as large as it would be on lower structured types?

[foreveryyoung]

Anyone thought of having their Seg Vol swap with his midfield partner in game to reduce the workload? Give him a slight rest in a less taxing role.

[Str0aK]

13 hours ago, Cleon said:

Why do you need the AMC going into the channels and getting further forward? What's the benefits of him roaming when you need him in a specific position? If you wanted him further forward why not just use an attacking duty? If he moves into channels maybe it doesn't benefit who you've set up or for the role the striker has? Maybe having someone more central is exactly what's needed, not someone drifting about?

Same with the wingback, why would you have him run wide the ball? What benefit does this offer? He's already wide and isn't really going to overlap because he's on a support duty and your WM is on attack on the same side. So what benefit does the PI bring to you? When he runs wide with the ball where is he actually going to and what's he going to do with it?

In the opening posts I spoke about how people who give the attacking players attacking duties (your ML/MR) and defensive players supporting duties separate the teams into two bands. The defensive players i.e the fullbacks will struggle to get up and support the wide players because there is such contrasting mentalities between them. How are the fullbacks going to provide support and link up them if those wide players have much higher starting points?

You're issues are you've gone top heavy and basically done mot of the things I advised not doing in the opening two posts and explaining the reasoning behind the advice. The squad isn't really a squad, it seems like the team is playing as two separate units.

Feedback much appreciated. I opted for Move Into Channels and Get Further Forward because I thought they suited the specific individual I'm playing there. I thought Roam From Position would help him get into better positions to link the play.

I didn't realise it would still be considered top heavy since I'm playing with ML/R rather than AML/R but I guess giving both of them attacking duties creates the same effect. 

I'll look at setting up my flanks differently and see how it goes. I don't usually play with two full backs on support and two wide midfielders on attack but it seemed to suit the players I have at my disposal. Perhaps I'm focusing too much on what looks like the best role for individual players and not putting enough emphasis on how all of the roles work together within the structure of the team.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Str0aK

[SmashtonGate84]

Looking forward to the rest of these posts, I have been struggling a little bit with taking the initial shell of this and trying to get it to work with Man City, I seem to be absolutely rubbish away from home currently.

[Hunter T]

On 9/11/2017 at 07:46, Cleon said:

 

Same with the wingback, why would you have him run wide the ball? What benefit does this offer? He's already wide and isn't really going to overlap because he's on a support duty and your WM is on attack on the same side. So what benefit does the PI bring to you? When he runs wide with the ball where is he actually going to and what's he going to do with it?

 

If you wanted to create an offensive play, based on the MR cutting inside as WM and the right back coming from deep and actually playing the whole of the flank, what would be their ideal duties? WMR support and WBR attack?

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, Hunter T said:

If you wanted to create an offensive play, based on the MR cutting inside as WM and the right back coming from deep and actually playing the whole of the flank, what would be their ideal duties? WMR support and WBR attack?

Or inverted winger and complete wingback

[scwiffy]

Hi Cleon,

I notice you talk about variety and a staggering effect when you talk about the wing backs and I can see it with your wingers too. When creating my tactics I'm very guilty of symmetry, purely because I like players to be flexible and swap wings (if possible) also makes substitutions and backups easier. Same reason I not a fan of asymmetric formations. Would you recommend I abandon this approach/mentality? I'm sure you can still make symmetrical tactics work, but would you say they can be less effective?

Also would you recommend making a mirrored version of these type of tactics to avoid being "sussed" by league opponents?

Completely separately, you talk about your winger providing crosses from deep and the byline but aren't these aren't these made to be conflicting instructions in FM? I also find it very hard to get the FM match engine to make any AML/R to track back (with maybe the exception of a defensive team mentality)

100% echo what you say about playmakers in the AMC role.

Edited November 10, 2017 by scwiffy

[herne79]

6 minutes ago, scwiffy said:

Also would you recommend making a mirrored version of these type of tactics to avoid being "sussed" by league opponents?

You don't get "sussed" by opponents.  Ever.  It's a myth.  The AI is incapable of figuring out how you play, it's not part of the programming.

The AI can (and is quite good at) adapting how they play against you based on your form or reputation, either over a period of time or even during a single match.  So for example if you are successful in the first half of the season you may find that opponents start to play more cautiously against you, or if you are leading 2-0 away from home at half time the AI may come out fighting in the second half.  But that's very different from sussing out how you play.