The 4231 Explained

[shaggydo]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

It's a pointless feature as most people set up stuff on the actual match day and the pre match briefing doesn't really do anything.

Oh, good to know. I'll just stop doing it then as my players are clearly starting to think I'm an idiot

[MartinGregory84]

Fantastic Thread as always Cleon, I always make my own tactics but always take into account your detailed explanations which are always a fantastic read!

[Icy]

1 hour ago, Cleon said:

Why is it overpowered? Based on what, what he does? If you think it's over powered then I think you don't really understand how the role works in real life and the hundreds of players who play this role on a daily basis in Brazil for example. It's a demanding, physical role. The SV does everything hence why I labelled it the 'complete midfielder'. He doesn't always perform though and your system is vital to just how effective or ineffective he'll be. It's more suited to some systems than others. In the shape I'm talking about in the thread then he is supposed to be the heartbeat of the team so it makes sense. He should score goals, he should get assists and so on.

And the player does get tired based on how much he is doing, I often have to sub him almost every game in this set up as stamina and condition drop fairly quickly during the latter stages of a game 60+ mins.

People need to stop throwing the word exploit around because of a lack of understanding about what the role actually entails and should do.

Also he's nothing like a playmaker at all. 

I know what the SV should do, and in fact it does it properly in game, no need to doubt about my understanding of real life football, we are talking about a game engine here. 

That I meant is that at the conference level, with average players for the league level (and agreeing with you that is is a very demanding role in real life, a true complete midfielder), two different players that I have tried in that position during a season, both became the best rated players in the team and it's not just the rating but what I see with my own eyes, that is that the SV is the true engine of the team, defend, assists, score a lot himself, etc. So that is why I said that I really love the new role, it's just that I "feel" it overpowered as I "feel" that an average player at that low level shouldn't perform this well, being able to dictate the game, defend and attack while not getting more tired for example than his deep laying playmaker partner that is way more static, I don't need to sub him that frequently and I'm talking again about average players at the conference level.

This is only a "feeling" that I have not taken the time to prove with stats and videos, that is why I said literally "I'm finding it a bit overpowered", if i was totally sure about it and could prove it, I would have already reported it in the bugs forum. I just left it here as my "own feeling" to see if others agreed also, as phnompenhandy and Bigpapa42 did just before me.

[jc577]

7 minutes ago, Icy said:

that is that the SV is the true engine of the team, defend, assists, score a lot himself, etc.

That is essentially what the SV is; the heartbeat of the team. If you check the key highlighted attributes for the role, he’s required to pretty much do everything. Also, the performances of your SV are relative to the league - if you were playing against top opposition then I doubt he would be as dominant as he currently is. 

[Cleon]

Quote

That I meant is that at the conference level, with average players for the league level (and agreeing with you that is is a very demanding role in real life, a true complete midfielder), two different players that I have tried in that position during a season, both became the best rated players in the team and it's not just the rating but what I see with my own eyes, that is that the SV is the true engine of the team, defend, assists, score a lot himself, etc.

But this will be because its the heartbeat of your tactic so it doesn't really matter who plays the role, it should do well regardless. It's the role and how you've set it up and utilise it with the rest of the set why it doesn't seem to matter who you play there.

Quote

So that is why I said that I really love the new role, it's just that I "feel" it overpowered as I "feel" that an average player at that low level shouldn't perform this well, being able to dictate the game, defend and attack while not getting more tired for example than his deep laying playmaker partner that is way more static, I don't need to sub him that frequently and I'm talking again about average players at the conference level.

This is a ridiculous statement though as roles are not level dependant. I'd love to see the stats though from games where he is used and doesn't get more tired than others in the side. As this goes against every soak test that was done on beta and live. I spent a lot of time feed-backing this role and bug reports and the role is demanding and uses lots of stamina and condition during 90 minutes even on lower mentalities. Players of any level can dictate games as it all depends on your tactical set up. This thread you are replying to is created for two specific things, the IF's be the main scorer and the SV to completely run the show. It doesn't matter who I play in the roles as the tactic is set up to utilise them roles as much as possible. So its possible that average players can run the show because everyone around them is set up to allow them to do it.

Quote

This is only a "feeling" that I have not taken the time to prove with stats and videos, that is why I said literally "I'm finding it a bit overpowered", if i was totally sure about it and could prove it, I would have already reported it in the bugs forum. I just left it here as my "own feeling" to see if others agreed also, as phnompenhandy and Bigpapa42 did just before me.

If it's as overpowered as you're saying though it would be pretty easy to prove it considering what you've said so far in this thread. It would take you about 2 minutes to collect the screenshots in game. About 20 seconds to find the PKM's of these games and then post the bug reports.

However you're using words like exploit, a bit overpowered without backing it up. It's just words without proof. I suggest you find examples and upload to the bugs forum though as you feel strongly about this. Getting the examples needed isn't time consuming. You need a few screenshots and the PKM's that's all.

Sorry to sound pissy I just dislike it when people moan or throw words around like exploit, overpowered and haven't reported anything about it or backed up claims. It's silly and reckless because it misleads people who might see it as they'll think its a fact when it's not. 

[Bigpapa42]

Can't say I find the role overpowered or exploitative. I know how much testing has gone into the new roles, and I'd be posting in the bug forums if it seemed out of whack to me. The CV is like any other role - it needs to fit the tactic and the other roles and duties. When the tactic is balanced, you don't necessarily need exceptional players to excel in the role. 

I've played a couple of players in that role, but almost none of them have been above average in terms of pace. I'm quite eager to try it out with player who is quite pacey for the level, to see how much of a difference that makes. 

Something I've been mulling in this save... Anyone found any particular PPMs to be really useful for the SV? 

[Jessan]

1 hour ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Can't say I find the role overpowered or exploitative. I know how much testing has gone into the new roles, and I'd be posting in the bug forums if it seemed out of whack to me. The CV is like any other role - it needs to fit the tactic and the other roles and duties. When the tactic is balanced, you don't necessarily need exceptional players to excel in the role. 

I've played a couple of players in that role, but almost none of them have been above average in terms of pace. I'm quite eager to try it out with player who is quite pacey for the level, to see how much of a difference that makes. 

Something I've been mulling in this save... Anyone found any particular PPMs to be really useful for the SV? 

I have 2 players for the SV role, they are pretty similar but one has the PPMs of dictates tempo and plays one-two's and he is getting better ratings then the other player.

[shadowraiden90]

on this talk about SV i really feel this is Pogba for Man United as i tend to watch games a bit differently to standard fan in that i love to try and work out how the team is overall in shape, their roles etc and the different Man United look when Pogba is in that role is night and day.

SV role is heart of the team when setup think Yaya Toure few years ago for Man City he would bulldoze his way through the midfield from deep positions linking up the defence to attack and allowing the support players space due to how the opposition has to react to such a player pushing through midfield.

 

i actually feel Ferguson use to do this role or similar but went under the radar with it quite often with how his teams worked and their seemed to be a hard working/high stamina player who seemed to be deep to help protect but pushed forward with the ball opening up space not just for himself but others around him. Anderson did this somewhat well albeit his deficiency in the ability to perhaps do the final aspect of the role in ability to score.

Fellaini before his injury seemed to be given similar instructions by Mourinho to the SV in that hes to play as a defensive mid when he doesnt have the ball yet then pushes forward making use of link ups and just his sheer size to bulldoze through the middle 3rd of the pitch, was effective in the few games i saw him play there.

[Cleon]

I hope to have the next part of this out at the weekend maybe before. 

[Solo171013]

Great thread. Have tweaked for my Liverpool save. F9 and advanced playmaker at the top.

Also dropped the d line by one notch as was getting caught out at the back with balls over the top.

Works fairly well. Either on fire or struggle for ratings with front 4 though.

One issue i have is that my 2 DM get caught chasing ball. Which is good when they win ball but if they get bypassed the back 4 is exposed.

Looking to see if a tweak will solve this. Maybe a role change for the DM. 

[Solo171013]

In addition to above. Swapped the roles as I want the F9 to move out to channels to free up space which the If and AP can utilise.

Thinking of swapping the DM to either a HB to see if he will hold a bit more. Loath to try a playmaker role as don't want it to go through him. If that makes sense. Will try some options.

I do feel a more defensive player will achieve more of what i want so it may not be the role more the player. Currently using Henderson and Cann. Latter is SV.

 

[Solo171013]

Well had a lottle tweak with players. Swapped the formation round. Mirror from the original set up with d line down one click. F9 AND AP. Wow. What football we played. 4 games. 13 goals. 4 wins. None conceded. Beautiful football.

Really pleased with how it played and results. @Cleon. Just by watching and making small tweaks. Team clicked. As you say it's not a one size fits all tactic it's a discussion to get people thinking.

Just the one bad point...... 1st crash dump in years and lose the last 3 matches. Oh well. Have to do it all again. 

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, Solo171013 said:

Well had a lottle tweak with players. Swapped the formation round. Mirror from the original set up with d line down one click. F9 AND AP. Wow. What football we played. 4 games. 13 goals. 4 wins. None conceded. Beautiful football.

Really pleased with how it played and results. @Cleon. Just by watching and making small tweaks. Team clicked. As you say it's not a one size fits all tactic it's a discussion to get people thinking.

Just the one bad point...... 1st crash dump in years and lose the last 3 matches. Oh well. Have to do it all again. 

This is why I save the game multiple times a week just to be over cautious so I don't lose anything. I always save before and after a match too.

It's great to see that you've made very minor changes to make it play the type of football you want and for the players you have

[AFCB08]

Cleon, looking to implement my own style of play using what you and many others have been saying in this thread, however I have a couple questions that still bothering me, as I'm unable to play the game at the moment, I wouldn't mind a few minuets of your time.

 

1, I really want to add a poacher into my system, never tried one but want to this year.  I'm hoping that with a poacher it could ease the goal scoring pressure off the IF (will be a Support duty im thinking) and still leave the IF enough space to find in and around the box?

2, moving your DMC to MC as a CM S but cleaver use of PI's to still have him close to work well with the SV.

 

Anyway will be having a play (Hopefully tonight, fingers crossed) will my friendlies and a min of 5 league/cup games with out changing anything and look at the data, see where its falling apart.  When anaylising the data, what is your goto method?

 

Thank you for your time and hoepe to provide Screenshots later on how its going.  Please dont look at this as Im asking you to fix things for me but where maybe I should be looking at to sort it all out.

[Cleon]

1 - Using a poacher is fine. However who is going to provide him the ball? A poacher is a player who plays in the box and on the shoulder of the defenders. So how you set up to allow him to be a poacher is vital because its a limited role that won't see much running or movement. It'll be quite static. So how do you plan to feed him the ball and give him support? Also how do you create space for the IF and how does this link in with the striker role you've used?

2 - No amount of PI's can make him act like a SV. So not sure what you mean? I also don't understand why you'd move him up to MC? If you use MC's that is fine but you missed the points in the opening post about how people set up the MC's wrong and explain what the MC's offer and the roles they should do.

 

[AFCB08]

Didn’t want the MC to play like a SV, like stated to work well with him, have witnessed so far that the SV, CM s and AM a performing a nice triangle, all be it a bit lop sides, working well, well in friendlies, will provide screen shots and data tomorrow

[Cleon]

I've started the next article and hope to have it up this weekend, possibly before if I can finish it off. It focuses on standard vs attacking mentality. This is a little snippet from it;

 

 

Quote

 

Believe it or not this is actually the average positions for the players in the standard mentality structure that I am using. Yet it’s more attacking on face value and players are positioned a lot differently compared to the first screenshot I posted. A lot of the players are more attacking. The average positions are interesting in both screenshots.

You’d have expected the attacking mentality to be a lot more aggressive with the average positions for when they had the ball (the purple icon with the number in it). Yet it’s actually the standard mentality screenshot which looks more aggressive. In the first image you can see even the defence is deeper when out of possession too.

There are a number of reasons why it could be like this;

The attacking mentality is making defenders hit the ball earlier than normal as they look to hit the front players a lot quickly than you’d see in the standard mentality. This is entirely plausible. In the standard mentality system players likely have more time and spend longer on the ball, meaning they move upfield much more because they aren’t looking to rush play.

In the standard system players seem to be more spread out, especially in the central areas. One of the reasons behind this is likely the initial space a player has. In the standard one the space is likely in front of the players, meaning they have time to work the ball and play with it at their feet. In the more attacking system, that space likely doesn’t exist due to the aggressive nature. The higher mentality should on paper push them further forward but as you can see in the images, this isn’t happening. This suggest the space isn’t there and the players are having to drop deeper to find space or by them being closer to the opposition players, it’s involuntary pushing them deeper and negating the actual attacking mentality.

Those are some of the reasons why this might happen and are the likely causes. But now let’s add some more context and briefly show the match stats to see if there is much difference between the two.

 

 

[Gegenklaus]

I am looking forward to this one. 

[phnompenhandy]

I'd be most interested in your comparison of standard with counter-attacking mentality. I started slavishly following your set-up with my lower league side (but with 'very deep 4231 with ML/MR wingers), but I was constantly getting done by long balls over the top between my 2 DCs. I figured that 'what's' sauce for the goose' so changed to a c-a mentality. That dropped the defence enough to cut down on the oppo killing us with those long balls, but what I did was set TIs to direct passing, higher tempo, closing down more, hard tackling and sticking my nippy striker up top. It's been a revelation - now I'm the one getting chances galore via those through balls and have gone from relegation certainties to pushing for a play-off place (providing my one decent striker can avoid any more injuries).

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, phnompenhandy said:

I'd be most interested in your comparison of standard with counter-attacking mentality. I started slavishly following your set-up with my lower league side (but with 'very deep 4231 with ML/MR wingers), but I was constantly getting done by long balls over the top between my 2 DCs. I figured that 'what's' sauce for the goose' so changed to a c-a mentality. That dropped the defence enough to cut down on the oppo killing us with those long balls, but what I did was set TIs to direct passing, higher tempo, closing down more, hard tackling and sticking my nippy striker up top. It's been a revelation - now I'm the one getting chances galore via those through balls and have gone from relegation certainties to pushing for a play-off place (providing my one decent striker can avoid any more injuries).

I think the piece I am doing will indirectly apply to this when you read it. I'd love to do it for every mentality  but I simply just don't have the time sadly. Well I do but I want to focus on my other projects too. So am trying to balance it out the best I can. 

[Cleon]

UPDATED POST 4

 

 

[Jessan]

I noticed that you changed your winger to an inside forward, was that just because the player is better suited as an inside forward or something specific for this match?  Also if you find yourself at 0-0 with 15 minutes to play and you are looking for the goal would you then up mentality or change some TIs like tempo?  It would seem obvious to go attacking mentality to go more attacking but as you've just highlighted your attack changes so much that it could actually become worse.

Edited November 23, 2017 by Jessan

[Jellico73]

On 11/2/2017 at 04:22, tajj7 said:

Just on the Volante, has anyone got examples in game that have the stats for it? 

I brought in this guy, he's been doing very well for me.

 

 

Jellico73

[Cleon]

22 minutes ago, Jessan said:

I noticed that you changed your winger to an inside forward, was that just because the player is better suited as an inside forward or something specific for this match?  Also if you find yourself at 0-0 with 15 minutes to play and you are looking for the goal would you then up mentality or change some TIs like tempo?  It would seem obvious to go attacking mentality to go more attacking but as you've just highlighted your attack changes so much that it could actually become worse.

Why would you leave it until last 15 minutes and not look to change things earlier so you have longer to get the result?

Personally what I change depends on the actual context. I can be drawing 0-0 yet playing amazing and be unlucky. Or I could be playing 0-0 and playing rubbish. So depending on the scenario I would change how I’d approach it. I don’t have a set thing to go to for scenarios. I base everything on the actual play.

i might just change a player at times. Other times might be TI’s etc.

[irish kopite]

2 hours ago, Cleon said:

UPDATED POST 4

 

 

A real eye opener. Thank you. 👍

[Jessan]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

Why would you leave it until last 15 minutes and not look to change things earlier so you have longer to get the result?

Personally what I change depends on the actual context. I can be drawing 0-0 yet playing amazing and be unlucky. Or I could be playing 0-0 and playing rubbish. So depending on the scenario I would change how I’d approach it. I don’t have a set thing to go to for scenarios. I base everything on the actual play.

i might just change a player at times. Other times might be TI’s etc.

Yes, my bad, should have clarified more.  I meant in the situation where you have been the better team, the team is playing well but they just haven't taken their chances.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, Jessan said:

Yes, my bad, should have clarified more.  I meant in the situation where you have been the better team, the team is playing well but they just haven't taken their chances.

I’d stick with things. I’d likely only change something or consider it, if I was losing. I’ve done threads on this though too if you look through my topics. I think it’s entitled stick or twist. That will give you a better idea.

[Jessan]

55 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I’d stick with things. I’d likely only change something or consider it, if I was losing. I’ve done threads on this though too if you look through my topics. I think it’s entitled stick or twist. That will give you a better idea.

Thanks for the reply, found the thread in question, it was an interesting read especially down the comments since you made the point that many users seem to focus too much on the opposition.  Pretty sure I'm one of those, time to unlearn some bad habits and have the faith to just sit on my hands and let the game play out at times.

I'll link to the thread in question here.

[jimbowan]

Just restarted my season with Hertha Berlin after struggling with my 4-1-2-3 and found this thread. Really should have looked at your posts earlier Cleon as I generally steal an idea or 2 off you every couple of years

Going to try this formation with the same roles, we have lots of winger types at Hertha so should be ok there, just need to find myself a good Segundo on the transfer market.

As always thanks for sharing your wisdom you always help slow me down from the click click click style of game i always start out with and then your posts make me think, analyse and slow down - which generally leads to greater success.

[harryleechinyeow]

8 hours ago, Cleon said:

Why would you leave it until last 15 minutes and not look to change things earlier so you have longer to get the result?

Personally what I change depends on the actual context. I can be drawing 0-0 yet playing amazing and be unlucky. Or I could be playing 0-0 and playing rubbish. So depending on the scenario I would change how I’d approach it. I don’t have a set thing to go to for scenarios. I base everything on the actual play.

i might just change a player at times. Other times might be TI’s etc.

Fantastic stuff !!! I am using Control mentality and it really has very similar issues with your attacking mentality problems.

Believe it or not, like wat Jessan asked regarding you swicthing your right winger from Winger to IF, i actually did the exact same thing. I am interested to know if it's because with the WB(a) behind him, you feel u need someone to create space for the WB(a) to run into? That was my reason. Because they often times found themselves very close to each other.

[Cleon]

Ah ****, the IF on the right is actually still a winger and not an IF. That's me who got the labelling wrong on the screenshot.

[Solo171013]

33 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Ah ****, the IF on the right is actually still a winger and not an IF. That's me who got the labelling wrong on the screenshot.

Was just about to ask the reasoning behind the change. From the IF position i thought that looks like the winger.

Seeing the positioning and linking that together. God never would have done that back in the early days. Things you pick up eh

[Cleon]

8 minutes ago, Solo171013 said:

Was just about to ask the reasoning behind the change. From the IF position i thought that looks like the winger.

Seeing the positioning and linking that together. God never would have done that back in the early days. Things you pick up eh

At least you know you have an eye to notice the subtle differences, that's probably the hardest thing to teach/learn

[Solo171013]

You'll have us all painting fences and waxing cars soon @Cleon.

It's very noticeable how standard builds play and it's more about the team advancing together.

Attack can feel rushed. Even when chasing a game sometimes patience is the best option and maybe a player sub or a player swap can be better than attack as it loses sight of the play.

[jc577]

@Cleon Do you think I'm along the right lines with this tactic? Ideally I'd like to have a FB-a overlapping the winger on the right, but don't really have the personnel and my SV isn't great defensively, so need defensive cover for him. 

** the FB-a is a WB-s **

[Solo171013]

@Cleon. Did you add the GK to distribute short. One tweak on initial setup was to add him to roll the ball out.

Found the long balls were not working. Playing as Liverpool so not the best in the air anyway. Using the roll out option built from the back and using standard or even a defensive mentality pulled teams onto us. Then a couple of passes and could send Mane or Salah away with pace. 

Really works well for me.

[yonko]

4 hours ago, jc577 said:

@Cleon Do you think I'm along the right lines with this tactic? Ideally I'd like to have a FB-a overlapping the winger on the right, but don't really have the personnel and my SV isn't great defensively, so need defensive cover for him. 

** the FB-a is a WB-s **

Personally I would have the IW on Support with FB-A behind him with DM-D covering. While on the other side, I would have the Winger on Attack.

[jc577]

51 minutes ago, yonko said:

Personally I would have the IW on Support with FB-A behind him with DM-D covering. While on the other side, I would have the Winger on Attack.

I agree, but the personnel I have available make it difficult to do so. My left winger is the only player with pace in my side, so i thought it better to have him on an attack duty, whilst the opposite is  true of my left flank. Full-backs are another issue, I don’t have a RB with decent crossing but I do on the left; seems near impossible to properly balance the roles and duties.

[mkkadi]

@Cleon I have noticed that SV(a) takes long range shots because of the PI selected with this role. Do you think this issue as a problem or because of the roles that you given to squad SV does not shoot longer? 

[Cleon]

13 hours ago, Solo171013 said:

@Cleon. Did you add the GK to distribute short. One tweak on initial setup was to add him to roll the ball out.

Found the long balls were not working. Playing as Liverpool so not the best in the air anyway. Using the roll out option built from the back and using standard or even a defensive mentality pulled teams onto us. Then a couple of passes and could send Mane or Salah away with pace. 

Really works well for me.

No Not added it yet as I'm seeing a fair number of chances created from the keeper. Especially with the long ball to the IF behind the fullback. I still need to test it more though to see if it's worth it. I've not had time to play the game for about 5 days though it's been all writing about it...........

7 minutes ago, mkkadi said:

@Cleon I have noticed that SV(a) takes long range shots because of the PI selected with this role. Do you think this issue as a problem or because of the roles that you given to squad SV does not shoot longer? 

No it's not an issue because if you still create space and good chances, he will still pass.

[Solo171013]

I found leaving it default the keeper kept giving away possession and was more beneficial to roll it out and build.

As i said before due to players. I'm not strong in the air and don't think Mingolet is good enough to distribute for that style. Maybe when i upgrade him may change it

[yonko]

11 hours ago, jc577 said:

I agree, but the personnel I have available make it difficult to do so. My left winger is the only player with pace in my side, so i thought it better to have him on an attack duty, whilst the opposite is  true of my left flank. Full-backs are another issue, I don’t have a RB with decent crossing but I do on the left; seems near impossible to properly balance the roles and duties.

Your pacy left winger should still be able to use his pace on Support duty and your left back with decent crossing will be able to use it on Attack duty naturally overlapping the IW-S. What I suggested is balancing the roles and duties nicely. I'm just curious about your AMC being a AP-S coming deep and the SV pushing up if they get into each other spaces sometimes. Keep an eye on that and maybe try using AP-A instead.

[Solo171013]

4 hours ago, yonko said:

Your pacy left winger should still be able to use his pace on Support duty and your left back with decent crossing will be able to use it on Attack duty naturally overlapping the IW-S. What I suggested is balancing the roles and duties nicely. I'm just curious about your AMC being a AP-S coming deep and the SV pushing up if they get into each other spaces sometimes. Keep an eye on that and maybe try using AP-A instead.

I founf an APa and a F9 work well together. They play close but link well.

Have Coutinho and Firmino and it like a piece of Brazil on the Mersey lighting up.😀

[Siven]

How would you incorporate 2 Inside forwards into the formation?

I play as Liverpool and have Mane and Salah as inside forwards as they seem to be the best role for them considering the PPMs (cuts inside etc).

 

I'm thinking have the striker on support, the AM as APs for more through balls. I would also think both the fullbacks need to offer width but also not be too attacking so WBs, then the SV to be support too so he can support both the IF and sometimes run into the box. But then i just feel with all the support roles behind the inside forwards, theres maybe not enough forward runs coming from deep?

[Solo171013]

2 minutes ago, Siven said:

How would you incorporate 2 Inside forwards into the formation?

I play as Liverpool and have Mane and Salah as inside forwards as they seem to be the best role for them considering the PPMs (cuts inside etc).

 

I'm thinking have the striker on support, the AM as APs for more through balls. I would also think both the fullbacks need to offer width but also not be too attacking so WBs, then the SV to be support too so he can support both the IF and sometimes run into the box. But then i just feel with all the support roles behind the inside forwards, theres maybe not enough forward runs coming from deep?

I play as Liverpool. Have kept the winger and IF. Have made 2 version. A mirror of each. So depending on who is playing the IF is either on right or left.

Other changes are:

GK set to roll out.

AM Is APa.

DLF Is F9.

Dropped the defensive line one notch.

Works very well and actually plays like we do in real life apart from defene is more solid.

[Solo171013]

Have found this tactic to be very solid at the back. Probably jinxed it now.

Think its because of a couple of reason.

The mentality which is meaning we aren't just launching balls forward and losing possession. We are build as a team. We do counte when the opportunity arises but not just looking to get ball forward at first opportunity. 

Linking to the above the team is a unit. We keep the shape and apart from when I see my DM and SV going a bit gung ho chasing ball and not winning it.(Think players rather than system) defend as a unit.

 

[Cleon]

11 minutes ago, Solo171013 said:

Have found this tactic to be very solid at the back. Probably jinxed it now.

Think its because of a couple of reason.

The mentality which is meaning we aren't just launching balls forward and losing possession. We are build as a team. We do counte when the opportunity arises but not just looking to get ball forward at first opportunity. 

Linking to the above the team is a unit. We keep the shape and apart from when I see my DM and SV going a bit gung ho chasing ball and not winning it.(Think players rather than system) defend as a unit.

 

That's the key to all tactics, how they function as a unit. It's very rare that a collection of individuals are successful and consistent. Th SV is the wildcard and the one who will be caught out of position if anyone is due to the risky nature of his playstyle.

[phnompenhandy]

1 hour ago, Solo171013 said:

Have found this tactic to be very solid at the back. Probably jinxed it now.

Think its because of a couple of reason.

The mentality which is meaning we aren't just launching balls forward and losing possession. We are build as a team. We do counte when the opportunity arises but not just looking to get ball forward at first opportunity. 

Linking to the above the team is a unit. We keep the shape and apart from when I see my DM and SV going a bit gung ho chasing ball and not winning it.(Think players rather than system) defend as a unit.

 

Very much so. MY team is lower league and extremely weak. What works for me is that this tactic packs the defence with bodies. I've tweaked Cleon's template to have fill backs (d) because as wingbacks I was getting done by the space behind; now inc keeper I have 6 defensive duties and 4 support (ML, CM, MR, DLF) - only the wildcard SV is attacking. It does keep things tight - we're not lacking in goals either, providing my nippy striker keeps fit to get on long balls over the top - without him no one has the pace to capitalise on counter-attacking breaks.

[pedromanuelpinto]

Hi there,

Always have problems with the 4-2-3-1, but I'm liking this new shape (with the 2 DMs).

Still don't know if I must have to put the wingers in the MR/L role or as AM, but we will see with more games.

Edited November 26, 2017 by pedromanuelpinto

[scwiffy]

On 11/24/2017 at 19:02, jc577 said:

@Cleon Do you think I'm along the right lines with this tactic? Ideally I'd like to have a FB-a overlapping the winger on the right, but don't really have the personnel and my SV isn't great defensively, so need defensive cover for him. 

** the FB-a is a WB-s **

This is pretty much how I hope to set-up my Brighton save when I get it going as its currently how they play. I've been trying to study Hughtons tactics for a while. But it's quite difficult to replicate on FM for many reasons (emphasis on stopping opposition first, the ying-yang of central midfields and 2 strikers).