Having issues getting possession near the area

[nicobile]

Hi. Since forever, i like making my team control the ball as much as possible, and after guardiola, i fall in love with his Barcelona style. I normally gravitate to it on FM, this year not being the exception. As this year im probably going to wait till release day for my long career save game, i started with Barcelona, just to try things out. 

Dont mind the names, that game i was using some subs (Sergi Roberto, Alba, Rakitic and Messi are starting, and Iniesta plays in the other midfield role). The only player instructions im using is roam from position for the AMR and MCL and get further forward for the AML. About team instructions, im not 100% sure if i should also use Retain possession (im getting over 60% without that TI) and Look for underlap. Specially this last one, im not sure if im understanding it correctly, but it seems like something that Barca does a fair bit, or maybe i didnt understand that instruction, dunno.

My main concerns are that my team is conceding too many goals for my liking and offensively, that i dont get enough possession on the last 3rd of the pitch, also i dont like that my team shoots a lot from outside, even having better options. 

Defensibly, i know i could get the mentality of the DL a bit down, but aside from that im not really sure. On the other side of the pitch, im still on the fence about attacking or support for the AMR, i went for attacking as i wanted Messi to be offensive and not having anyone in that area with that mentality seemed wrong. 

Another thing that bothers me is that the players are all static, no one runs, no one gets close to players while attacking to help or give passing options.

Do you guys see any glaring mistakes or changes to make that would help me?

 

[JPChenet]

I have also found it near impossible so far to design a possession (plus 70%) tactic in comparison to previous versions. The ball retention seems particularly poor at the moment; something I am sure SI are working on.

[Cleon]

Well you mention possession in the final third of the pitch, but look at the distance between the MC's and the wide players and the striker. How do you expect to retain possession when all forward options are risky passes and limited? What I mean is, it'll be hard to retain possession in the final third when the front 3 roles don't allow for it as no-one is dropping off to be a passing outlet. This is an issue because there is no central player getting further forward either, your DLP won't be adventurous in his movement. The AP will move about more but is still a playmaker, so will likely look to hit the longer more direct balls at time looking for the IF on the opposite side and the striker.

[nicobile]

12 minutes ago, Cleon said:

Well you mention possession in the final third of the pitch, but look at the distance between the MC's and the wide players and the striker. How do you expect to retain possession when all forward options are risky passes and limited? What I mean is, it'll be hard to retain possession in the final third when the front 3 roles don't allow for it as no-one is dropping off to be a passing outlet. This is an issue because there is no central player getting further forward either, your DLP won't be adventurous in his movement. The AP will move about more but is still a playmaker, so will likely look to hit the longer more direct balls at time looking for the IF on the opposite side and the striker.

I been playing with dual inside forward for many FMs, even tho it sounded weird in my head, it always worked, at least for me. Its good to know that for whatever reason, this is not the case now and that i can actually change at least one. 

What options would you think would be better? I toyed with the idea of the AMR as an advance playmaker, but that would made 3 of my players playmakers, not sure if that would be smart, or even if it can have a negative effect (i never used 3 in any tactic i made). The more obvious choice its to make AML a winger, but normally i lose many attacks with them hitting too many crosses (more than 10, closer to 20).  Do you think almost all tactics need a winger? in that case should i still use get further forward with a support mentality?

Thanks for the answer!

[nicobile]

33 minutes ago, JPChenet said:

I have also found it near impossible so far to design a possession (plus 70%) tactic in comparison to previous versions. The ball retention seems particularly poor at the moment; something I am sure SI are working on.

Im sure its just us having a role or two messing up the shape. For example, as Cleon said, i notice that my 3 up top dont come to get the ball and we dont end up having any closeness in the final third. Im sure that changing at least one of them will make my team play more like i want and get better results

[Cleon]

6 minutes ago, nicobile said:

I been playing with dual inside forward for many FMs, even tho it sounded weird in my head, it always worked, at least for me. Its good to know that for whatever reason, this is not the case now and that i can actually change at least one. 

What options would you think would be better? I toyed with the idea of the AMR as an advance playmaker, but that would made 3 of my players playmakers, not sure if that would be smart, or even if it can have a negative effect (i never used 3 in any tactic i made). The more obvious choice its to make AML a winger, but normally i lose many attacks with them hitting too many crosses (more than 10, closer to 20).  Do you think almost all tactics need a winger? in that case should i still use get further forward with a support mentality?

Thanks for the answer!

Nothings changed, what works in FM17 still works now. The only time it wouldn't was if you didn't have full tactical familiarity yet. If you even look at your negatives it says you lose possession in the final third and I'd put money on it being that either your wideplayers are not providing proper support, the striker isn't involved in the build up phase as much as he should be or that your playmakers are not having the time to pass like how you want. You have to remember that possession on FM is measured in time on the ball and not by the amount of passes.

What happens with the dynamics of the front 3 if you used a DLF? Does this make them retain possession better? In theory it should.

Another thing I'd check is PPM's on the playmakers and see if they have any that would possibly take away from possession in the final third like through balls often etc.

[Cleon]

17 minutes ago, nicobile said:

Im sure its just us having a role or two messing up the shape. For example, as Cleon said, i notice that my 3 up top dont come to get the ball and we dont end up having any closeness in the final third. Im sure that changing at least one of them will make my team play more like i want and get better results

I actually don't think you are that far off. However aiming for 70% constant is considered a major extreme in FM terms and likely won't be sustainable over a larger period of time. 60-65% is though. 

[nicobile]

I actually Use something really close to this formation for FM17 and 16, but with one or two full backs, and with a different DM role, and i always dominated, even made the game super easy for me. Granted, a couple of games the team didnt get as much possession as i would want, and they always shot a lot from range. My main problem in every game since the change from sliders to roles, is the lone striker one. I really never know what to use and that frustrates me. I still havent try DLP this year, im going to now.

And yes, 3 of my 5 players that play on the playmakers role have killer balls often. Tho i dont find it an issue, as i dont want to play possession for the sake of it, what i notice and worries me is that there is no unity between midfield and offensive players, as you already guessed. Im changing AML to winger support, and striker to DLP Attack. Do you think that for Messi in particular, i should use him as a playmaker too to get him more touches?

Again, thanks!

 

[Cleon]

1 minute ago, nicobile said:

I actually Use something really close to this formation for FM17 and 16, but with one or two full backs, and with a different DM role, and i always dominated, even made the game super easy for me. Granted, a couple of games the team didnt get as much possession as i would want, and they always shot a lot from range. My main problem in every game since the change from sliders to roles, is the lone striker one. I really never know what to use and that frustrates me. I still havent try DLP this year, im going to now.

And yes, 3 of my 5 players that play on the playmakers role have killer balls often. Tho i dont find it an issue, as i dont want to play possession for the sake of it, what i notice and worries me is that there is no unity between midfield and offensive players, as you already guessed. Im changing AML to winger support, and striker to DLP Attack. Do you think that for Messi in particular, i should use him as a playmaker too to get him more touches?

Again, thanks!

 

Don't change anything apart from the striker to a DLF support for now. I say support because you use two IF's so it makes more sense to use a striker who will drop deep and be a link player to play the IF's  in on goal.It should also make him the focal point in the final third and allow him to recycle possession.

[nicobile]

Just now, Cleon said:

I actually don't think you are that far off. However aiming for 70% constant is considered a major extreme in FM terms and likely won't be sustainable over a larger period of time. 60-65% is though. 

Yeah, i dont aim for 70%, i would be happy with a 60% high percentage through ball attack team that generate space with passes. In my experience, only way to get over 70% is other team underperforming and playing contain with long balls

[nicobile]

1 minute ago, Cleon said:

Don't change anything apart from the striker to a DLF support for now. I say support because you use two IF's so it makes more sense to use a striker who will drop deep and be a link player to play the IF's  in on goal.It should also make him the focal point in the final third and allow him to recycle possession.

The only problem i had with support in DLF is he has more risky passes too, but yeah, maybe thats a good thing for the IFs if i maintain both AM as IFs

[summatsupeer]

10 minutes ago, nicobile said:

The only problem i had with support in DLF is he has more risky passes too, but yeah, maybe thats a good thing for the IFs if i maintain both AM as IFs

CF-S also has Risky Passes so he was already attempting them, but was also told to take on opponents by dribbling and moving around more from his position.  Hence why Cleon said he should be more of a focal point and recycle possession more due to being more conservative whilst still looking to play others through as he did before.

Also remember in FM possession is time based whilst in RL it is pass based so hard to get the same numbers in FM as RL.

[nicobile]

Just now, summatsupeer said:

CF-S also has Risky Passes so he was already attempting them, but was also told to take on opponents by dribbling and moving around more from his position.  Hence why Cleon said he should be more of a focal point and recycle possession more due to being more conservative whilst still looking to play others through as he did before.

Yeah, thats why i said that DLF has it too, as CF had that PI. I didnt find the striker having risky passes good just for one IF with a support winger, but with the two still as IF its a good idea that the DLF has two clear options cuting inside. 

[Rashidi]

I haven't read through any of the posts, with the beta testing, I am kinda skimming quickly and trying to help where I can...just looking at your roles and duties:
 

HB will push the 2 DCs wider. You have gone with the assumption that the 2 CDs will push to the flanks and cover for the WBs who push up. Its risky because you are playing on very fluid and pushed up. There are too many pockets to exploit, furthermore when you clear the ball, I have doubts about how the front 3 configuration will help you keep the ball. You need to check their player traits here to see how they work the ball against certain opposition. If you play agsint deep defenses that pack their middle with a DM and those 2 IFs are cutting inside...if they lose the ball, then your flanks are vulnerable. 

Your weakness is ball retention in the final third. First thing I would recommend you do is play it on Flex, even in FM17 this tactic would have vulnerabilities.

[JPChenet]

18 hours ago, Cleon said:

Don't change anything apart from the striker to a DLF support for now. I say support because you use two IF's so it makes more sense to use a striker who will drop deep and be a link player to play the IF's  in on goal.It should also make him the focal point in the final third and allow him to recycle possession.

In my tactic I've been averaging around 58-59% possession, but not quite high enough up the pitch though for my liking. I'm playing two up front and going to question the DLF Support role as on attack duty in my tactic they've dropped deeper and worked harder to gain the the ball and play as a central unit with the midfield - which seems backwards.  

 

[nicobile]

19 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I haven't read through any of the posts, with the beta testing, I am kinda skimming quickly and trying to help where I can...just looking at your roles and duties:
 

HB will push the 2 DCs wider. You have gone with the assumption that the 2 CDs will push to the flanks and cover for the WBs who push up. Its risky because you are playing on very fluid and pushed up. There are too many pockets to exploit, furthermore when you clear the ball, I have doubts about how the front 3 configuration will help you keep the ball. You need to check their player traits here to see how they work the ball against certain opposition. If you play agsint deep defenses that pack their middle with a DM and those 2 IFs are cutting inside...if they lose the ball, then your flanks are vulnerable. 

Your weakness is ball retention in the final third. First thing I would recommend you do is play it on Flex, even in FM17 this tactic would have vulnerabilities.

Thanks for your answer! Yes, that was the idea about the HB, tho yesterday while seeing many chances created against me with through balls in the middle, i started playing with a DM support. Just two games, but in those possession was still good (even higher than expected) and the amount of chances i let the opposition make was slightly in a worse position for them, so harder to score. 

About the top 3, while they are playing their socks off, (Messi more than 8.50 averange rating, him and Suarez more goals than games) i still find them isolated at times. Playing in flex, at least in my opinion, makes the team longer, thats why im using very flexible. Could you please elaborate a little why it would be better to play flex? i prefer understanding why im changing my tactic, to best understand how my team is playing and how im asking them to play.

Thanks! 

[nicobile]

21 hours ago, Cleon said:

Don't change anything apart from the striker to a DLF support for now. I say support because you use two IF's so it makes more sense to use a striker who will drop deep and be a link player to play the IF's  in on goal.It should also make him the focal point in the final third and allow him to recycle possession.

Hi Cleon, after a day of playing, im having really good results, but im still not super happy, actually im getting my most dreaded issue in FM since forever: Long shots.  Im getting at least half my shots as a long shot. My gripe with them is that they are coming from dumb positions; being hard marked, having 2 o 3 players near in a best position, too far from the goal. I do have the TI to work ball into the area (something i use in every tactic  since introduce because of my aversion for high % of shots being long). 

This is making my team, not only to lose possession earlier than expected, but even lose on good opportunities that could be created if instead of shooting the player passed. the most weird/annoying one is Iniesta, whos role has shoots less often and he has the PPM pass instead of score. Im guessing the ME is deciding that the players that are high up the pitch are too far, or even not desmarking/unchecking from the opponent enough. 

Do you find something about my roles that could help me with this?

thanks!

Edit: i did notice that the shoots from just outside the area are being counted as long shots, while that was not the case in FM17, at least not in the final version. Im not talking about those shots tho they are inflating my stat, i find them realistic and i even expect to get a couple of shots from that point.

Edit 2: The most amount of long shots are coming from the two IF, and then the AP. The rest more or less are in normal ranges