Replicating Ferguson 02/03

[goqs06]

Regarded as one of the best managers of all time, Sir Alex Ferguson managed Man Utd from 1986 to 2013.

Most thread try to replicate his sides from the 1999 and 2008 which were highly successful. However, I will try to replicate Man Utd 02/03 season which featured a 4-2-3-1 formation, putting stars like Scholes, Keane, and Giggs in the spotlight.

[herne79]

If you want to replicate SAF from all of those seasons, you'll be creating about a dozen different tactics.

You're best bet is to pick just one (or even just one match) and start there.

[goqs06]

1 hour ago, herne79 said:

If you want to replicate SAF from all of those seasons, you'll be creating about a dozen different tactics.

You're best bet is to pick just one (or even just one match) and start there.

I’d choose Man Utd season from 2002 to 2004 as many people won’t cover that.

Of all of Ferguson's United sides, this one has the misfortune to go down as one of the least successful, despite having an embarrassment of riches throughout the squad. That said, they did win a league title together and were unlucky to come up against some superb sides domestically (Arsenal) and in Europe (Real Madrid). Can one achieve success with them where Ferguson could not?

[summatsupeer]

Don't focus too much on mentality and shape at this point.  Focus more on the what each player does as this likely didn't dramatically change during the season, just minor tweaks or a different team strategy on a game by game basis.

I can't remember that much about this era, pre-ronaldo and post-beckham with SAF transitioning to a lone forward (Van Nistelroy) I think?  Try describing what each player (common starters) did, this should help you pick the roles + duties which can then be tweaked if needed.

[goqs06]

Formation

Like Ferguson, we’ll play with a 4-2-3-1 like how he did in the 02/03 season.

G (D): Barthez

FB (A): Neville, Gary (the Older)

CD (D): Ferdinand (then British record signing of £30m for a teen)

BPD (D): Blanc (ex PSG gaffer)

FB (S): Silvestre/Neville, Phil (the Younger)

RGA (S): Veron 

BBM (s)/BWM(s): Keane

W (A): Giggs (left side)

WM (S): Beckham (right side)

AM (S): Scholes

AF (A): van Nistelrooy (aka the Horse)

Counter, Flexible/Structured

Not really sure about the PI and TIs thou (help please!!!!)

Translating to FM18:

Obviously, the squad of 02/03 can’t be found in FM18. Thus I’ll use the Man Utd squad in this game to replicate as close as possible.

Hence,

G (D): De Gea

FB (A): Valencia/Young

CD (D): Jones/Bailly

BPD (D): Lindelof

FB (S): Darmian/Blind

RGA (S): Carrick 

BBM (s)/BWM(s): Pogba/Herrera

W (A): Martial

WM (S): Mhkitaryan

AM (S): Mata

AF (A): Lukaku/Ibra

[Sparky_07]

I want to have a deeper look into the 1999 team and try and replicate that into FM18. I feel the 442 is looking better this year.

[goqs06]

14 minutes ago, Sparky_07 said:

I want to have a deeper look into the 1999 team and try and replicate that into FM18. I feel the 442 is looking better this year.

@Sparky_07 here, this video should help out. Would argue that Keane was more of a BWM in the 1999 treble season thou

[TheJanitor]

I'm not strong on United tactics (obviously ) but it looks like you need a massive squad reshaping to fit their tactics from back then. Veron v. Carrick, Becks v. Mkhitaryan, Keane v. Pogba, RVN v. Lukaku - this guys don't quite match up in terms of what they brought into the side.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't try it. This side is sandwiched between argueably Man Utd two greatest teams ever and I'd like to see how you develope it, but it might take a while until you get all the pieces right and it may take sacrificing a few key players and finding creative solutions.

[goqs06]

1 minute ago, TheJanitor said:

I'm not strong on United tactics (obviously ) but it looks like you need a massive squad reshaping to fit their tactics from back then. Veron v. Carrick, Becks v. Mkhitaryan, Keane v. Pogba, RVN v. Lukaku - this guys don't quite match up in terms of what they brought into the side.

I'm not suggesting you shouldn't try it. This side is sandwiched between argueably Man Utd two greatest teams ever and I'd like to see how you develope it, but it might take a while until you get all the pieces right and it may take sacrificing a few key players and finding creative solutions.

LOL Rob Firmino in the Profile Pic

@TheJanitor, you’re right. Perhaps I’ll buy players to suit the roles required or turn to the youth teams. Maybe I won’t even use Man Utd and instead another team for this save.

[summatsupeer]

I think when your working on a new tactic and its a replication or based on RL and its not the current system your best picking another team who do fit the tactic for the most part.  Then you can see how it plays out with players suited to it and if you then want to convert man utd to it you can do it over a longer period, fergy style letting players go even if stars and getting the right players in (more often than not).

Was Vernon the deepest midfielder? Really surprised at that, fergy trying to do a Pirlo with veron?

From my bad memory I'd say the LB was more conservative, especially with Silvestre, a CB/LB.  Beckham wasn't a winger, he didnt dribble or stay wide, he was more a WM or WP, probably a WM-S with sit narrower, more risky passes, cross often and cross from deep.  The RB I'd say was a FB-A, I think he was more aggressive with his overlapping runs, but 2002 was probably later in his career so maybe what legs he had were going?

[goqs06]

34 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I think when your working on a new tactic and its a replication or based on RL and its not the current system your best picking another team who do fit the tactic for the most part.  Then you can see how it plays out with players suited to it and if you then want to convert man utd to it you can do it over a longer period, fergy style letting players go even if stars and getting the right players in (more often than not).

Was Vernon the deepest midfielder? Really surprised at that, fergy trying to do a Pirlo with veron?

From my bad memory I'd say the LB was more conservative, especially with Silvestre, a CB/LB.  Beckham wasn't a winger, he didnt dribble or stay wide, he was more a WM or WP, probably a WM-S with sit narrower, more risky passes, cross often and cross from deep.  The RB I'd say was a FB-A, I think he was more aggressive with his overlapping runs, but 2002 was probably later in his career so maybe what legs he had were going?

Thx for your feedback @summatsupeer. Btw, what would Veron’s role be? Was he more of a attacking mid or a central mid? 

[Mitja]

Most importantly and I think we'd all agree SAF played atractive attacking footy. that would be attacking mentality + shorter passing.  4-4-2 and it's variants, 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1.

Everyting alse would depend on many other things and opposition but I'd say he preffered to play with higher tempo (risky passes too). Naturally very high defensive line since he preffered fast defenders. Offside trap.                            

 

 

[jc577]

What do we think of this is a replication of the 07/08 United team? I'm thinking Control/Flexible or Structured but not sure on TI's for the moment 

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, Mitja said:

Most importantly and I think we'd all agree SAF played atractive attacking footy. that would be attacking mentality + shorter passing.  4-4-2 and it's variants, 4-4-2, 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1.

Everyting alse would depend on many other things and opposition but I'd say he preffered to play with higher tempo (risky passes too). Naturally very high defensive line since he preffered fast defenders. Offside trap.                            

 

 

You can have attractive footy without using attacking mentality.  You can have attacking footy without using attacking mentality.

I agree he liked a quicker tempo, either through Giggs driving forward with the ball or quick direct passing from Beckham/Scholes.

Don't agree with high line, early on with Bruce/Pallister it was quite deep with a solid 4-4 block.  Yes with Blanc, Johnsen, May, O'Shea, Brown and Ferdinand it wasn't so deep but i'd not call it a very high line.  Even with Vidic + Ferdinand they wouldn't try and hold a high line.  I'd say if anything Fergy prefered his teams to sit in a solid formation, not very deep but not high up to create space for his preferred fast attacks.

1 hour ago, jc577 said:

What do we think of this is a replication of the 07/08 United team? I'm thinking Control/Flexible or Structured but not sure on TI's for the moment 

I think it changed a lot up front from game to game, i'd say the back 4 + central midfielders were the same, i'd use DM's in FM.  Carrick was more a Anchor/DLP-D, I don't remember him ever being the one to go chasing the ball.  Scholes was the other center mid with more freedom in movement and more often was the one to play the risky passes, maybe a Regista?  Just did a quick google to find an analysis of a game and found this video which I agree with: 

In FM terms i'd say it was a 4222 DM or with one forward pulled back.

 

[jc577]

@summatsupeer yeah I agree carrick was probably an anchor man/DLP-D, although i’m not sure if i want two playmakers in CM. Regista/RPM both good shouts for Scholes, with more risky & more direct passes. The only issue I have with a 4222 DM is that Ronaldo was usually very high up the pitch, sometimes the furtherst forward. Maybe IF-S with get further forward enabled?

[summatsupeer]

29 minutes ago, jc577 said:

@summatsupeer yeah I agree carrick was probably an anchor man/DLP-D, although i’m not sure if i want two playmakers in CM. Regista/RPM both good shouts for Scholes, with more risky & more direct passes. The only issue I have with a 4222 DM is that Ronaldo was usually very high up the pitch, sometimes the furtherst forward. Maybe IF-S with get further forward enabled?

I don't think Scholes ever dribbled past anyone  so RPM doesn't fit.  I remember him making forward runs but at this stage of his career he might of transitioned to that "Quarterback" role, I can't remember exactly.  Maybe A-D (Carrick / Fletcher I think?) + DLP-S/REG?

I'm not sure if its that season but the front 4 were quite dynamic and would change in a game or from game to game.  I think they typically played like: Ronaldo LW/ST, Rooney LW/AM/ST, Tevez AM/RW, Park AM/RW.  One game Park would be AM man marking the opponents DLP, the next he's on the RW covering a rampaging WB.  One game Ronaldo would be up front as a F9 kind of player working channels and counter attacking with Tevez+Rooney getting up and down on the wings/middle to link up with him.  Could be a 4231 DM Wide or 4231 Deep with all AM strata pulled back or just the wings, I think it depended on the game, IF or IW.

[jc577]

53 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I don't think Scholes ever dribbled past anyone  so RPM doesn't fit.  I remember him making forward runs but at this stage of his career he might of transitioned to that "Quarterback" role, I can't remember exactly.  Maybe A-D (Carrick / Fletcher I think?) + DLP-S/REG?

I'm not sure if its that season but the front 4 were quite dynamic and would change in a game or from game to game.  I think they typically played like: Ronaldo LW/ST, Rooney LW/AM/ST, Tevez AM/RW, Park AM/RW.  One game Park would be AM man marking the opponents DLP, the next he's on the RW covering a rampaging WB.  One game Ronaldo would be up front as a F9 kind of player working channels and counter attacking with Tevez+Rooney getting up and down on the wings/middle to link up with him.  Could be a 4231 DM Wide or 4231 Deep with all AM strata pulled back or just the wings, I think it depended on the game, IF or IW.

Haha you’re spot on there about Scholes, dribbling and tackling weren’t really his strong suit  will probably go for a Anchor/Reg combo to begin with.

I think the most common set up was Ronaldo LW, and then Tevez and Rooney would swap positions frequently, but usually Rooney was a bit deeper and Tevez would drop off the front line. The RM varied game to game; if Giggs played then he usually helped Scholes with build up and and drifted centrally, so WM/S or even a WP-S. I’m not sure how much Nani played during that season, probably would have been a W-S/A if anything, maybe even an IW.

[howard moon]

Ronaldo played from the right more than the left in this season. Giggs or Nani on the left (Park missed much of this season injured). If an extra midfielder was playing, Rooney would go left, with Tevez or Ronaldo as lone-striker.

[jc577]

27 minutes ago, howard moon said:

Ronaldo played from the right more than the left in this season. Giggs or Nani on the left (Park missed much of this season injured). If an extra midfielder was playing, Rooney would go left, with Tevez or Ronaldo as lone-striker.

How would you set up in that case? Nani as in IW on the left, Ronaldo WM-A/IF-S or A on the right?

[howard moon]

16 minutes ago, jc577 said:

How would you set up in that case? Nani as in IW on the left, Ronaldo WM-A/IF-S or A on the right?

Ronaldo IF (a)

Giggs/Nani WM (s) - neither played as wingers, Nani would cut inside and Giggs would link up with the CMs but was definitely not a playmaker. 

I think though that the player roles and formation changed from game to game. E.g. Carrick & Scholes we’re very different to Hargreaves & Anderson, who played as a pair fairly often. So either change the roles by the player, or choose vanilla roles and let the player attributes/PPMs create the difference. 

Where I always struggle with this side is shape and mentality...

[goqs06]

5 hours ago, howard moon said:

Where I always struggle with this side is shape and mentality...

@howard moon IMO it would be Structured, Counter. Fergie only really gave lots of creativity to the front 3 of Tevez, Rooney and Ronaldo. (PI: Roam More, Dribble more, Move into Channels)

[Bitner]

5 hours ago, howard moon said:

Ronaldo IF (a)

Giggs/Nani WM (s) - neither played as wingers, Nani would cut inside and Giggs would link up with the CMs but was definitely not a playmaker. 

I think though that the player roles and formation changed from game to game. E.g. Carrick & Scholes we’re very different to Hargreaves & Anderson, who played as a pair fairly often. So either change the roles by the player, or choose vanilla roles and let the player attributes/PPMs create the difference. 

Where I always struggle with this side is shape and mentality...

What Fergie always did, imo, is setting individual roles to each player...

I do it to the maxium impact at FM, but i understand it's hard to do, even harder if you're trying to emulate him.

Cheers,
Bitner

[goqs06]

Okay guys, pls look at the title of the thread, "Replicating Ferguson 02/03". Its okay to talk about Fergie's teams from others seasons, but please don't go out of topic too much as we are focusing on the 02/03 season. Thanks!

[BoxToBox]

I'd try something like

AF(a)
AM(a)
W(a)---BBM---RPM(s)---WM(s)
FB(s)---CB(d)---BPD(d)---FB(a)
GK(d)

Lukaku
Mata
(Winger)---Herrera---Pogba---(WM)
Shaw---Bailly---Lindelof---Valencia
DeGea

Control/Structured.

The AM could be a Shadow Striker too, and the RM could be a Wide Playmaker, Beckham was an excellent passer and had great vision, too.

The problems come in that you really don't have the wide players to do the job, no real pacey left footed left winger, creative right winger with world class crossing, and even Valencia isn't a good enough crosser for the overlap. Also, that midfield role combo is just far too open to work in FM, but it's about as close as you can get to how they played

[howard moon]

28 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

I'd try something like

AF(a)
AM(a)
W(a)---BBM---RPM(s)---WM(s)
FB(s)---CB(d)---BPD(d)---FB(a)
GK(d)

Lukaku
Mata
(Winger)---Herrera---Pogba---(WM)
Shaw---Bailly---Lindelof---Valencia
DeGea

Control/Structured.

The AM could be a Shadow Striker too, and the RM could be a Wide Playmaker, Beckham was an excellent passer and had great vision, too.

The problems come in that you really don't have the wide players to do the job, no real pacey left footed left winger, creative right winger with world class crossing, and even Valencia isn't a good enough crosser for the overlap. Also, that midfield role combo is just far too open to work in FM, but it's about as close as you can get to how they played

Keane was not really a BBM by the time Veron arrived, more a CM(d).

[goqs06]

Could someone list down the team instructions and player instructions?

[herne79]

58 minutes ago, goqs06 said:

Okay guys, pls look at the title of the thread, "Replicating Ferguson 02/03". Its okay to talk about Fergie's teams from others seasons, but please don't go out of topic too much as we are focusing on the 02/03 season. Thanks!

Might be worth updating your OP to reflect this as new readers may just read that before they comment.

4 minutes ago, goqs06 said:

Could someone list down the team instructions and player instructions?

You've had lots of input already, how about you do some of the hard work too and give it a go yourself.  Let us know how it plays out and what issues (if any) you come up against .

[goqs06]

sry @herne79 I'm new. What's OP stand for?

Wait nvr mind you mean opening post?

[summatsupeer]

48 minutes ago, goqs06 said:

sry @herne79 I'm new. What's OP stand for?

Wait nvr mind you mean opening post?

Yeah opening post.

59 minutes ago, howard moon said:

Keane was not really a BBM by the time Veron arrived, more a CM(d).

I don't think he was ever a BBM, yes he got up and down the field but didn't really roam.  If I had to define him by a standard role i'd say he was a DM-S.

[goqs06]

The System

Team Instructions:

GK: Tackle Harder, More Direct Passes, Distribute Quickly

DR: Tackle Harder, Cross From Byline

DCR: None

DCL: None

DL: Dribble More, Tackle Harder

DMCL: Shoot Less Often, Dribble Less, Tackle Harder, Get Further Forward

MCR: None

ML: None

MR: More Risky Passes, Cross More Often, Cross From Deep, Sit Narrower

AMC: Shoot More Often, Roam From Position, Moves Into Channels

STC: Shoot More Often

 

Results

 

Average Positions

With Ball

Without Ball

Overall

 

For all who are interested in this thread, namely: @BoxToBox @Bitner @herne79 @summatsupeer @Sparky_07 @TheJanitor @Mitja @jc577 @howard moon

[FrazT]

Closed by request of the OP