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Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

mr.rooney

Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?  

1,279 members have voted

  1. 1. Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?


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fmsteve

fmsteve

Posted
Posted

wont stop me buying the game -having said that i would appreciate some enlightenment guys if thats possible? i only play fm on the pc - i neither own nor buy any other pc games, so what was the deal with spore et al. and its's DRM? just curious

as for what it seems to be in regards to fm09, i will still buy the game and no doubt have countless hours of enjoyment on it, but cannot help thinking that on 14th nov the servers will be a bit like those of mobile phone companies on christmas day (or at least were), where i (well my dad) would have to register my xmas presents well before the day because he couldnt get through on the 25th - just like phone calls on new years day at 00.01am - this scenario occuring with fm is my main concern

the last issue that no-one seems to have raised is that miles said that pre-ordered games that arrive early would not be able to be registered until the 14th - so everyone who hopes of receiving the game early will possibly be in for a shock. whilst i respect that fm's official release date is the 14th it seems crazy that i could have a game (that money has been taken off me for), sat on my desk that i cant play till the next day - surely early arrivals should be treated as late arrivals are - that they are the problem/fault of the posting company rather than mine (or SI for that matter) and fail to see why i and many others should be penalised (in the hypothetical situation of recieving the game early) for the faults of someone else - i cant see them offering some money back if the order arrives late - can you?

anyway (semi -) rant over. i dont know enough about the process of DRM to really pass judgement until i try it and as i said before, nothing will stop me buying fm09 - so will reserve judgement until then

as for those of you who are not going to buy the game because of DRM i am in full support of you - hats off for speaking your mind and voting with your wallets (so to speak), we are all major stakeholders in both SEGA and SI and if you want to try and change something this is the way to do it. power to the people and all that.

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damienroden

damienroden

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the thing about the drm that bugs me is that it will take about 2 weeks to crack the game and anyone who wants it illegally will have it. I know people on here have said things like there 15 times more pirates than legitimate owners - do we have any real statistics to show this?

two weeks to crack? spore was up for download 3 days before it official release.

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DivineOne

DivineOne

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The issue with Spore was that they only allowed 3 installs, which has now been upped to 5.

Spore's DRM is less strict than FM's to be honest, because it allows 5 installs on each machine.

It's the issue with restricting the people that pay for the game rather than the way its done.

They can't do anything about pirates so they'll get tougher with people who are honest. It doesn't make sense.

I don't think you read it well, spore only allows 5 installs on ANY machine. 5 installs and you can throw the game away.

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feedthegoat

feedthegoat

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Overall, I will buy but will wait a few weeks to see what you peeps think of the game and any issues with the DRM set-up.

My main reason apart from that fact that FM09 is the best footie management sim is that SI are and appear to be a really good bunch of guys. They have not yet let me down in over 10yrs of buying their games.

K..:)

This is exactly what I think I'm going to do, wait a few weeks, let the dust settle and gauge people's reaction to the authentication business and the general DRM business, and also possibly by then the first patch (whether it will be needed or not) may have arrived and so see how installing that affects the authentication, as this is (for whatever reason) my main concern, plus also by the time I do buy it, the game may well be a bit cheaper ;)

Don't get me wrong, I do see SI's reasoning for adding this protection, it's just that it's the innocent gameplayer who gets stung everytime and not the pirates.

In reply to Liniert:- I'm pretty sure that EA released a patch raising the installs to five. Whoopie Doo!

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mertle

mertle

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biggest ISSUE for me is STEEM. Sorry Si but I dont want it neither want to be forced to ring up to register.

Why oh why SI do I need a piece of rubbish on my comp to run the game to clarify I will have orig. As for phoning it will be joke. Surely just have an independent activation with SI or Sega without the need of getting involved with STEEM.

I only GOT 1 game on my PC and that is FM dont like anything on my machine I dont trust. I dont want to have STEEM to run it surely I should be able to run it by just inseting a disk and not even need the registration.

Registration should be only required if you want to play without disk it should not be blanket conforming for everybody.

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kiwityke

kiwityke

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It is hard to think of intellectual property as something real isn't it? I have trouble myself and I have a heavy bias for it (I insisted on buying the dvd version instead of getting the online version much less hassle), but then I think of things like service, it doesn't give you anything physical but you have to pay for it anyway...

I tried to get my copy from thehut, it's costing me around $70 this way (I'm 30% sure they have a postage payment kind of thing), assuming that it works. I went to EB and Gamesman every single weekend the month before FM08 came out and none of the employees even knew about the game, much less able to tell me when it was coming or even whether they will stock it. Needless to say they did not stock it at all, and since then I have given up buying FM in a store in NZ.

I asked a nice girl in the Riccarton Mall EB and she had even heard of the game!!! I nearly died of shock. But they are stocking it she just recommended pre-ordering as several big games were coming out on the same day. I just refuse to drive all the way to Richmond to do this.

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ElDani

ElDani

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Frankly, I have no issue with FM09's type of DRM copy protection. There are far worse alternatives out there that are not only more restrictive in it's use, but other copy protection methods are way more far reaching. I've read about the issue that DRM-critics in Spore forums had their game-licenses disabled and let us not even start with technical issues that can arise from copy protection (like drives not working correctly with the game or additional software running on system level).

It simply has to be said, that, as far as the copy protection feature of FM09 has been described so far, there are far worse alternatives out there. That of course is my opinion based on the assumption that FM09 will not require me to run any background software I have never agreed to or that it's being hidden behind the requirement to install the game with an Administrator account. That certainly is where the fun and acceptance ends for me.

The technical DRM issues aside, one question that has so far gone unanswered because Miles couldn't answer, is how DRM will affect those customers who live in countries where SEGA does not distribute the game in (Germany for example). An authentication via telephone is probably not possible for those people since the phone numbers are most likely some kind of premium rate numbers accessible only nationally. That leaves the Internet way ... and it wouldn't be the first time that some game (to be fair, I'm mostly thinking about online-only games I've encountered) would restrict it's use to nations where it is being sold. If someone from SEGA could confirm or deny that, I'd appreciate it a lot. Because buying a game I can't use (and cannot even legally sell) is a no-no for me.

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Äktsjon Männ

Äktsjon Männ

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Not true, its 5 installs on the same machine. If you get a new computer, it resets.

No it doesn't. Spore and any other EA's new title is 5 installs max. You can install it on one computer as many times as you want until you change anything on that machine. When you change the conf and reinstall it counts as a new one and takes one registration away from you. If you install it on another machine, it takes another slot away. If you reach 5 installs then you're done. Only way to get a new install is to call EA who are going to assume you are a filthy pirate and you'll have to prove them wrong. If they think you've not done enough you'll not get the extra install and you can just as well throw the game in the bin.

However bad this SI's new thing is, it's never as bad as EA's.

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andyinuk

andyinuk

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Could you quantify that a bit, as that seems to be the main argument for the system, and I just don't know how well it holds water:

- If there was no anti-piracy measure, maybe it's true and pirates would be rampant. But what about the system we've had for the past N years, with N being a large number, i.e. CD (or DVD) in the drive. Hardly anyone objected to that, and there certainly wasn't such an uproar on these forums about that method. So it probably didn't drive people away like this method does.

- The new system seems to allow for what you suggested much more than the old system. With no need for the DVD and 5 installs, it's much easier to lend the game to your mate than it was back when the CD was needed. (Of course you could somehow get around the copy protection and make a copy of the CD for your mate, but that at least would have taken some doing. Now it's much easier to "distribute to your mates".

-> Actually, if SI/SEGA can supervise where and when a given copy is played they might be able to put a stop to that sort of distribution. But that would require that FM09 sends information periodically to SI/SEGA, and with SI saying the new method respects ones privacy, that seems like a public relations disaster and would just strengthen the opposition to the DRM.

- And as a final point, games like Sins of a Solar Empire seem to do well, even with policies that could be misused by evil pirates; apparently the number of good, law-abiding people is large enough to support a good game. :)

All fair points i think. The missus and I always buy one copy of FM each so that we don't have to trying to take the disc from each other's computer. With the new system there is always a temptation of just buying one copy of the game. What will stop us from doing so is probably due to the fact that we are both working in the game industry and feel quite strongly about software and licenses.

As for the first point, there were always a lot of people moan about having to leave the disc inside the machine. Not so much of an uproar but it was definitely constant ranting about it.

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Liniert

Liniert

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New problem - the game can only be authenticated from the 14th onwards. Server crash anyone?

this is what worrys me most. The servers for Football Manager live are hosted by SEGA, and the FML beta didnt exactly have the best record for server stability. so assuming sega are hosting the authentication servers aswell then i think the server crashing is a real possibility.

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Themistofelis

Themistofelis

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Posted
two weeks to crack? spore was up for download 3 days before it official release.

Sacred 2 was available cracked 2 weeks before it was released here...and pirates do not have to deal with pointless protections.

I think it is time to boycott all those who think that they can control our property , because after we buy the game it is our property. Dictatorship of gaming devs has to be stopped , don't buy games with silly protections for 1 year and things will be far better.

"I want to play the god damn game" is not a reason to let anyone pimping your PC .

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auto98uk

auto98uk

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I remember a lot of user buying DRM protected music from companies that have since decided to shut down their music shops. The result: All the music purchased can now no longer be played after a reinstall of windows, since the license servers are no longer there.

Which ironically has led to people searching for and downloading apps to strip the DRM off the music files - ie turned non-pirates into pirates, really was a genius scheme that, I bet a few of the people who had to get these apps are now confirmed pirates, BECAUSE of DRM

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auto98uk

auto98uk

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In an ideal world? You'd log in to segas website and run a small program that gives your PC's unique code, based on your hardware. If the PC matches up to one pre-confirmed official install locations, it'll let you either reauthorise without taking a credit (as it's a machine that's officially authorised without an uninstall) or download the game if you've lost or scratched the DVD. If it's not a pre authorised machine based on that hardware profile, it'll either allow you to authorise it or inform you that you've used your limit. In the "used your limit" case, I'd say maybe have a 6th "temporary authorisation" slot? It'll authorise the game for one week, once. To get this 1 week slow back, you have to contact SEGA, jump through any of their hoops and get one of your 5 slots emptied. They will then also reset your 1 week temp auth. Try to temp auth again before freeing this slot up, on the same machine or another, and it'll simply turn you down.

Since when do you purchase a game for a specific machine? It is not in the publishers legal power to tell you you must have it installed on a particular machine.

So you think that people who install the game lots should have to jump through lots of hoops? Hardly fair is it? I reformat every few weeks so are you saying this somehow means I should have to do more than any other person to get the game working?

And what happens to the people (there are always some) who can't play the game BECAUSE of the copy protection (eg securom)?

Finally, it should be pointed out that there is no known correlation between having DRM/copy protection and increased sales (indeed the opposite may even be true) - this is a fallacy that plagues the industry

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Wakers

Wakers

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No it doesn't. Spore and any other EA's new title is 5 installs max. You can install it on one computer as many times as you want until you change anything on that machine. When you change the conf and reinstall it counts as a new one and takes one registration away from you. If you install it on another machine, it takes another slot away. If you reach 5 installs then you're done. Only way to get a new install is to call EA who are going to assume you are a filthy pirate and you'll have to prove them wrong. If they think you've not done enough you'll not get the extra install and you can just as well throw the game in the bin.

However bad this SI's new thing is, it's never as bad as EA's.

This is simply not true, I emailed EA about this very issue when spore was released - its 5 installs on any machine. Ergo, you can install it on 3 seperate machines 5 times each.

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Peter Henchey

Peter Henchey

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Finally, it should be pointed out that there is no known correlation between having DRM/copy protection and increased sales (indeed the opposite may even be true) - this is a fallacy that plagues the industry

May be true? So there is no study that shows selling the game with no form of copy protection whatsoever would increase total sales?

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Hamselv

Hamselv

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Which ironically has led to people searching for and downloading apps to strip the DRM off the music files - ie turned non-pirates into pirates, really was a genius scheme that, I bet a few of the people who had to get these apps are now confirmed pirates, BECAUSE of DRM

The sad thing is that no one has learned from the music industry's failed attempt at DRM.

Luckily the music industry is again moving away from DRM, since they have finally managed to realize that with DRM everyone loses - It hurts sales for the record companies and the customers has to suffer from unfair restrictions on a product they have purchased.

What has always surprised me is that so many companies have to try out DRM and see it fail before they stop using it. To me it should be clear from the start.

With DRM you end up with a situation like this:

A person can either go out and pay money for a product and then have to deal with a lot of restrictions and inconveniences, or they can sit at home and get the same product for free without any restrictions and inconveniences - That's putting a lot of faith in peoples' honesty.

What the music industry is increasingly doing is to bundle their products with various extra content that people that choose to download the product most likely won't get.

Then you're back in a situation where the product you buy is better than the one people can download – and not worse as is the case with DRM. Lots of record companies still haven't realized this either but at least some are heading in the right direction.

To me it's just sad that a company like SI that I have always respected, and that has always seemed to care so much about their customers, is now heading down the same dark DRM road – even though it should be so clear that nothing good can come from it.

An interesting little snippet posted in OTF

Also actually surprised that the percentage voting "Yes" is currently at just over 20%, that's a fifth of people who voted (obviously!), I actually thought it would be a lot lower.

I'm not sure the numbers show a clear picture to be honest. It would be cool if it did because then SI wouldn't be able to ignore the problems with using DRM in future games. Some of the people that voted "yes" will probably end up buying the game anyway, and in general the people that are against DRM are most likely more dedicated to vote in order to express their hate towards DRM. Then on the other hand I can see that so far 6 people representing SI/Sega has voted "no" to try and make the numbers look less problematic - A bit sad in my opinion.

May be true? So there is no study that shows selling the game with no form of copy protection whatsoever would increase total sales?

Take a look at a game called Galactic Civilizations II. Not a hugely anticipated game, but the sales ended up being beyond all expectations because the developers announced that they would use no copy protection or DRM whatsoever. I'm sure there are other examples.

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Äktsjon Männ

Äktsjon Männ

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This is simply not true, I emailed EA about this very issue when spore was released - its 5 installs on any machine. Ergo, you can install it on 3 seperate machines 5 times each.

I don't know what they've told you, but I suggest you read some EA forums, such as this thread. A member of EA staff explains here how it's done (it's RA3, but the system is the same). It's 5 authorizations, each new config needs an authorization. 5 installs and you can throw it in the bin. Or call EA and convince them you're not a filthy thief, stealing food off their tables to paraphrase a well known person on here ;)

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ANDEHLSON

ANDEHLSON

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I couldnt care less about the DRM... there isnt anything about it that makes me not want to buy the game...

But i cant understand how it is gonna help against piracy .. What prevents 3-5 friends from buying the game together (i mean one game for each of them, which would cost what? 10-15 € for each of them?) and all of them using the same DVD since they only gotta use it once...Or what prevents someone from installing a game that belongs to a friend? Probably SI (well they should!!) already thought about that but I really cant see how they could stop people from doing it..

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ReallyMadrid

ReallyMadrid

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Posted

I actually had no idea there was DRM protection on it untill I read this thread. I don't know if it will stop me from buying the game alltogether, but I was going to buy it on release day (as the new features are definitely much more enticing than what was offered last year) and now will rather wait to see the reaction and decide afterwards.

People can say it's a minor gripe, but I just don't like having software on my system that is not needed, especially if it's something that 'phones home'. If it only needs to verify it once, can I remove the DRM after that 1 time and keep on playing without the disc? From what I'm reading I'm assuming not. If not, why would I still need to have this software on my computer afterwards?

And, as already remarked, this doesn't 'hurt' the people who illegaly get the game, this 'hurts' the people who DO buy the game.

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Peter Henchey

Peter Henchey

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Take a look at a game called Galactic Civilizations II. Not a hugely anticipated game, but the sales ended up being beyond all expectations because the developers announced that they would use no copy protection or DRM whatsoever. I'm sure there are other examples.

But you could just as easily say that the game sold fantastically because it was a great game, not because of its lack of DRM.

And in order to access downloadable support (extra content, PATCHES), you did have to authenticate your game online through SSD. So wouldn't we be up in arms if SI chose to ape that system as well? Afterall, why should we have to "jump through hoops" for access to support that we as consumers have a right to. Don't we hear year after year how FM isn't playable until after several patches?

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Hamselv

Hamselv

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But you could just as easily say that the game sold fantastically because it was a great game, not because of its lack of DRM.

And in order to access downloadable support (extra content, PATCHES), you did have to authenticate your game online through SSD. So wouldn't we be up in arms if SI chose to ape that system as well? Afterall, why should we have to "jump through hoops" for access to support that we as consumers have a right to. Don't we hear year after year how FM isn't playable until after several patches?

Naturally no one can say what the sales numbers would have been if they had chosen to use copy protections, but at least it seems to indicate that it didn't hurt sales as many other game publishers would like us to believe. The fact that the sequel "Sins of a Solar Empire", to the best of my knowledge uses no copy protection either, seems to confirm the fact that copy protection and DRM isn't necessary. Personally I don't mind a simple copy protection though, as it's only the DRM systems that I really feel restricts my use of a game.

I do know that getting extra content and patches for Galactic Civilizations II and Sins of a Solar Empire requires you to register with you serial key first, but I don't really have a problem with that approach. When you buy the game there are no restrictions - You can install it as many times as you like and on as many computers as you like. Then if you want to use the support offered by the developers/publishers, you have to prove that you have actually bought the game. When it comes to patches though, I'm not completely sure registration is the right choice.

I agree that previous experience has shown that (with FM) having access to patches is not a luxury but a necessity.

Maybe SI should just go back to calling them "Enhancement Packs" rather than patches then :D

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Äktsjon Männ

Äktsjon Männ

Posted
Posted
But you could just as easily say that the game sold fantastically because it was a great game, not because of its lack of DRM.

And in order to access downloadable support (extra content, PATCHES), you did have to authenticate your game online through SSD. So wouldn't we be up in arms if SI chose to ape that system as well? Afterall, why should we have to "jump through hoops" for access to support that we as consumers have a right to. Don't we hear year after year how FM isn't playable until after several patches?

I don't think having to authenticate for patches would be as bad as this system. You have to be online to download a patch anyway and this system to my knowledge won't install anything on your computer to spy on your activities. If their system were to go tits up you'd only lose out on patches you haven't already acquired. The game would still work. The main worry for me with these limits is if I can still play the game in a number of years and/or when I actually manage to run out on licenses for some reason. Plus the third party applications interfering with whatever they don't like me doing on my computer.

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Alekos

Alekos

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Posted

Agree with authentication but totally disagree with the 5 licences..

In my opinion these kinds of strategies are always against the people that pay to buy the game original..

I will buy the game original as I do the last 12 years but I really don't like this kind of restriction...

I think SI shouldn't worry about piracy since they have LOTS of fans that buy all those years the game original..

From my point of view when you like a game you buy it..When you don't you just stay away..

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digsy11

digsy11

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Posted

I've never installed any FM more than twice on my PC.Granted everyone uses their PC differently but if the amount of people moaning about this fact install the game more than 5times...well I just find that strange.I really can't see why this would put off anyone buying, possibly , the greatest incarnation of the game.I would also hazzard a guess that 50% of the users saying they won't buy it are lying.

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MSCCG

MSCCG

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Posted

I have inside information from another forum that FIFA Manager 09 has been cracked and has been ready for release since a week ago, the official release date was today. EA have stricter DRM than SI, so this should say something.

*I meant that DRM as it is now does not work. developers should work harder to encrypt the game codes better rather than trying to stop the game from being installed or whatever, that is how it will go in the future.

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ashp

ashp

Posted
Posted

I was excited at being able to buy this via Steam, but not now I know it has additional layers of DRM. The fact I have logged into Steam should be enough 'authentication', and I shouldn't have a lifetime limit of 5. I don't trust the authentication servers to stay up forever, and I don't like limitations on future playthroughs, even if it's unlikely that I would want to.

In the end I'll probably still buy it, but I'm definitely unhappy about the trend towards silly things like installation limits; I reward the companies that treat me like a grownup, and buy games like Gal Civ II (and all the damn expansion packs), because it doesn't burden me with additional DRM over and above that of having to log into the download client.

Edit: I find the comments about lending the game to be stealing to be insane. If I lend you a book off my bookshelf, are you 'stealing' from the publisher? No, because while you have the book I do not. DVD based authentication at least leaves that in place, so that while your friend has the DVD you cannot play it.

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treble_yell_:-)

treble_yell_:-)

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What really will be amusing will be launch day, i can name 2-3 notable title from much larger publishers (Activision and EA) who have been crippled on a big launch day with the registration flood.

Ive seen it happen with MMO authentication servers aswell.

9am friday the 14th then again at around 5 GMT the servers are going to take a pounding, the forums will be full of lol.

Im 100% against DRM , it achieves nothing, FM09 will be available before the 14th 110% , so if 1 LEGITIMATE buyer has a problem activating his legally bought game, while pirates will be playing it days before........... then surely the DRM will have failed

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Wakers

Wakers

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again, the main problem with this is it just clamps down on the people that support you instead of the pirates, which is an utterly ******** way of going about things.

What exactly is wrong with people selling games second hand anyway? its been going on for years. Now all of a sudden, the gaming industry is up in arms over piracy (which is, in most cases, the industries fault for releasing so many games that simply don't work out of the box), so they decide they'll fix things by punishing those that buy their games while the pirates just sit there laughing at them.

It's ******** thinking, there is no other way to describe it.

Sins of the Solar Empire - no DRM, no copy protection, sold massively well despite, even better than they were expecting. Was it still pirated? Yes. But the majority of people that pirate these games are downloading stuff they wouldn't normally buy anyway.

I completely agree with treble. Only opening activation the day the game is out in stores is another arse-backwards way of thinking. Many people receive copies legitimately early (a day or two), while people on Steam can download it the day before. What does it matter that they activate it early? All you're doing by restricting it to the 14th is creating a huge bottleneck for yourself.

Sometimes I don't think there's a single man with any sense that works on computer games.

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TheOriginalJez

TheOriginalJez

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Car keys just mean you have to make the extra effort of locking and unlocking your car, and using it to turn on the car... if a thief wants to steal your car he ain't gonna worry about the lock. Do you want locks taken off cars too?

Car keys don't stop major theives or people who want to steal, they just help prevent more people doing it by making it harder to do - which does go a long way to theft prevention. just like DRM.

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Alekos

Alekos

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Posted
Car keys just mean you have to make the extra effort of locking and unlocking your car, and using it to turn on the car... if a thief wants to steal your car he ain't gonna worry about the lock. Do you want locks taken off cars too?

Car keys don't stop major theives or people who want to steal, they just help prevent more people doing it by making it harder to do - which does go a long way to theft prevention. just like DRM.

Yes but if you lock-unlock your car more than 5 times this doesn't mean you won't be able to use it anyomre or you'll need to call the industry that sold the car to you to help you use it again...

So your example is not valid in this situation..

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