Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[Ready Freddie]

There is no way that anyone can argue that DRM reduces piracy. Spore is a fine example.

I was happy to have the disc in the drive, that's cool with me, it doesn't mean that you've installed a heap of your spyware and viruses on my PC (AFAIK), and I feel like I own the game, I'm not renting it. It also meant that you've stopped people sharing round a disc between a class of schoolmates and such, which seemed fair.

Then, SI looked at what EA did with Spore, and saw the reception it received, and the subsequent poor sales. They thought to themselves "This is what we want FM to become, a poor game compounded by invasive and illegal software installed on users machines without their permission." So, they implemented the exact same DRM as Spore.

I hope they get the same result, pity about '09 though, I was enjoying the demo, but I don't want viruses on my computer.

[Interloper]

As said in my earlier post: DRM does have an effect on piracy. You won't catch out the hard-core crackers, but you will put off a lot of 'casual downloaders' and 'home copiers' and 'lend it of a mate'.

Lend it to your friend yes and home copiers yes... But casual downloaders will still get a copy that doesnt even have the activation screen and no one are really doing their own home copies anymore as it's so much easier to download it.

It wont put off anyone from downloading, maybe delay the crackers a bit but not much, still wont be a problem for them, piracy wont die but legal customers will with this development.

[MSCCG]

The DRM isn't just about piracy. It's theft and lots of different stuff. Have a look at the kind of DRM FM is using this year.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Am worried about DMR, could be a nightmare but am hoping it wont be and am trying to keep the SI faith. A suggestion to SI:

When FM10 has been released (Xmas 09) re-release FM09 as a budget pack without DMR, maybe with the FM10 demo as an extra (maybe £5-£10 budget price) - Just a thought.

[Themistofelis]

On the "isps putting down piracy" thing Italy banned piratebay and all Italians now use open DNS or a sister Italian page for getting torrents.

I can crack game X cut it to rars and upload it to RS under the title "totally legal software" (rapidshare deletes all illegal software from it's servers...when they can find it) , then go and post the links to 30 of the closed forums i am participating , what my isp is going to do ?

DRM has a big effect in piracy , many gamers who were willing to buy games now are getting pirate copies of them.

[Henrik84]

Amen!!!!!!!!!

[GillsMan]

On the "isps putting down piracy" thing Italy banned piratebay and all Italians now use open DNS or a sister Italian page for getting torrents.

I can crack game X cut it to rars and upload it to RS under the title "totally legal software" (rapidshare deletes all illegal software from it's servers...when they can find it) , then go and post the links to 30 of the closed forums i am participating , what my isp is going to do ?

DRM has a big effect in piracy , many gamers who were willing to buy games now are getting pirate copies of them.

Well that sounds to me like the ISPs in Italy have cut down piracy. Will it ever be eradicated completely? I doubt it. But if we can reduce it, that's a good thing!

[KOP_007]

DRM opposition

Many organizations, prominent individuals, and computer scientists are opposed to DRM. Two notable DRM critics are John Walker, as expressed for instance, in his article The Digital Imprimatur: How big brother and big media can put the Internet genie back in the bottle[33], and Richard Stallman in his article The Right to Read[34] and in other public statements "DRM is an example of a malicious feature - a feature designed to hurt the user of the software, and therefore, it's something for which there can never be toleration".[35] Professor Ross Anderson of Cambridge University heads a British organization which opposes DRM and similar efforts in the UK and elsewhere. Cory Doctorow, a prominent writer and technology blogger, spoke on the Microsoft campus criticizing the technology, the morality, and the marketing of DRM.[36]

There have been numerous others who see DRM at a more fundamental level. TechMediums.com argues that DRM-free music allows for viral marketing, arguing that independent artists benefit from "free marketing" and can then focus on revenues from higher margin products like merchandise and concert ticket sales. This is similar to some of the ideas in Michael H. Goldhaber's presentation about "The Attention Economy and the Net" at a 1997 conference on the "Economics of Digital Information."[37] (sample quote from the "Advice for the Transition" section of that presentation:[37] "If you can't figure out how to afford it without charging, you may be doing something wrong.")

The Electronic Frontier Foundation and similar organizations such as FreeCulture.org also hold positions which are characterized as opposed to DRM.

The Foundation for a Free Information Infrastructure has criticized DRM's impact as a trade barrier from a free market perspective.

The final version of the GNU General Public License version 3, as released by the Free Software Foundation, prohibits using DRM to restrict free redistribution and modification of works covered by the license, and includes a clause stating that the license's provisions shall be interpreted as disfavoring use of DRM. Also, in May 2006, the FSF launched a "Defective by Design" campaign against DRM.

Creative Commons provides licensing options encouraging the expansion of and building upon creative work without the use of DRM.[38] In addition, the use of a Creative Commons-licensed work on a device which incorporates DRM is a breach of the Baseline Rights asserted by each license.[39]

Bill Gates spoke about DRM at CES in 2006. According to him, DRM is not where it should be, and causes problems for legitimate consumers while trying to distinguish between legitimate and illegitimate users.[40]

According to Steve Jobs, Apple opposes DRM music after a public letter calling its music labels to stop requiring DRM on its iTunes Store. To date, EMI has complied.[41] Apple considers DRM on video content as a separate issue.

Defective by Design member protesting DRM on May 25, 2007.

As already noted, many DRM opponents consider "digital rights management" to be a misnomer. They argue that DRM manages rights (or access) the same way prison manages freedom and often refer to it as "digital restrictions management". Alternatively, ZDNet Executive Editor David Berlind suggests the term "Content Restriction, Annulment and Protection" or "CRAP" for short.[42]

The Norwegian Consumer rights organization "Forbrukerrådet" complained to Apple Inc. in 2007 about the company's use of DRM in, and in conjunction with, its iPod and iTunes products. Apple was accused of restricting users' access to their music and videos in an unlawful way, and to use EULAs conflicting with Norwegian consumer legislation. The complaint was supported by consumers' ombudsmen in Sweden and Denmark, and is currently being reviewed in the EU.

The use of DRM may also be a barrier to future historians, since technologies designed to permit data to be read only on particular machines, or with particular keys, or for certain periods, may well make future data recovery impossible — see Digital Revolution. This argument connects the issue of DRM with that of asset management and archive technology.[citation needed]

DRM opponents argue that the presence of DRM violates existing private property rights and restricts a range of heretofore normal and legal user activities. A DRM component would control a device a user owns (such as a Digital audio player) by restricting how it may act with regards to certain content, overriding some of the user's wishes (for example, preventing the user from burning a copyrighted song to CD as part of a compilation or a review). An example of this effect may be seen in Microsoft's Windows Vista operating system in which content is disabled or degraded depending on the DRM scheme's evaluation of whether the hardware and its use are 'secure'. All forms of DRM depend on the DRM enabled device (e.g., computer, DVD player, TV) imposing restrictions that (at least by intent) cannot be disabled or modified by the user.[citation needed]

Tools like FairUse4WM have been created to strip Windows Media of DRM restrictions.[43]

[edit] "DRM-Free"

Due to the strong opposition that exists to DRM, many companies and artists have begun advertising their products as "DRM-Free".[44][45][46]

Most notably, Apple began selling "DRM-Free" music through their iTunes store in April of 2007[47]. It was later revealed that the DRM-Free iTunes files were still embedded with each user's account information, a form of copy protection generally not regarded as DRM.[48]

Good read for people who don't know what they're talking about. Many other sites out there to conduct further reading.

[CaptainPlanet]

The quality of the game without a patch is more likely to turn people away rather than a couple of seconds authentication.

[Muzchap]

Hi All,

Let me introduce myself - I'm the person resposnsible for implementing this DRM protection system on FM09.

Let me try to rationalise the decision for you:

1) We did not want restrictive DVD checks, this is problematic on most PC's and both SecuROM and SafeDISC install low level drivers, along with blacklisting which can cause system instability. Also with the rise of EE-PC's we did not want to restrict the game to be authenticated on DVD media.

2) We have listened to your requirements and have tried to make this protection as unobtrusive as possible - please let me dispel some of the myths already circulating:

• The game does install a certficate at point of activation
  
• You can choose to remove / not remove this certificate when uninstalling
  
• There is a hardware feature called 'Insight' turned on - this will collect basic info about your machine - Hardware only (clockspeed, gfx card, memory, hdd size) - this will assist in future developments of the game - BUT can be turned off if it proves unpopular.
  
• There is no 'profiling' or 'monitoring' of how you play the game? Where this came from is beyond me?
  
• You do not have to be connected to the Internet to play the game? You only need to activate once and then you can keep on playing
  
• If you deactivate / activate - you will never need to beg SI / SEGA for an activation key? Why get upset about a procedure you haven't even experienced?
  
• The game will be DRM free after around 18 months - this will ensure that you can always play the game, as we have listened to your concerns about servers being unavailable in the future.
  
• There is NO blocking of D-Tools or Alcohol or any other program! We just stop you running a debugger whilst the game is running.
  

If you have any specific concerns, not outlined above, please post below and I will do my best to answer.

I realise people become very agitated with DRM solutions - but we have worked hard to ensure you receive the best possible experience, whilst we ensure the integrity of the game and try to generate the revenue required to keep this excellent game moving forward with the investment and development it needs - which is directly driven by you guys purchasing the game.

I have played FM and it's previous naming convention for many years, I remember good ole' Freddy Rincorn and Peter Smith - As a fan, I am doing my best to get the balance 'just' right - maybe some will feel we haven't achieved it this time, but I think we're very close.

A note about the DEMO - could you post specific information on that please - the demo doesn't have the activation in it? So not sure what problems you are experiencing?

My final parting message is - Do you really think we go out of our way to make your lives difficult? We want this game to be as succesful and enjoyable as you do - please stop and consider this before you post.

Regards,

Murray

**DEMO UPDATE**

Can you please screenshot the files you have from the DEMO - we would like to identify these files, they should have been removed in the uninstall process. You can delete these manually, it will cause no harm.

**Activation Update**

If you want to uninstall / reinstall you can do to bring back your licence - if you lose the machine HDD failure / PSU drops off and fries system, we sympathise with you and have provided a 'manual' way to deactive through a webpage that will be linked to from the SI Site.

We really are only trying to inconvenience the 'crackers' not you - the legitimate playing public. My thoughts were - I didn't like being restricted to a disc, but I want flexibility - hence you being in charge of your 5 licence seats. This is our first 'tentative' step into DRM and we wil rely on your support and feedback whilst we fine-tune.

**StarDock**

The 'StarDock' promise - has actually been broken if you read some other threads. This is my personal opionion and in no way reflects the opinions of SEGA / SI Games.

**Debugging** / **Blacklisting**

We do not blacklist, but do prevent debuggers attaching to the FM09 process - this is intentional, however, it should not affect you using compilers, building and debugging your own applications.

**Blocking Port80**

Some people have expressed concern about the one-time harvesting of machine details and are blocking FM09 through Windows Firewall, this is a personal choice and you have every right to do so - we only use the hardware specs to improve the game, it allows us to purchase the same hardware as our userbase for QA/Compat testing on FM10 etc. By doing this, you are helping us better understand your needs, especially when considering the move to the 3D engine and further game enhancements.

[CaptainPlanet]

[*]There is a hardware feature called 'Insight' turned on - this will collect basic info about your machine - Hardware only (clockspeed, gfx card, memory, hdd size) - this will assist in future developments of the game

I predict outrage at this.

Doesn't bother me, but people are protective of their PCs and will feel violated by intrusive software taking details of PC specs without asking.

[Ranbir]

I won't be getting it. I'll wait until the game has a price drop. But by that time, 2010 will come around with its plethora of new and fixed features.

[Kriss]

I predict outrage at this.

Doesn't bother me, but people are protective of their PCs and will feel violated by intrusive software taking details of PC specs without asking.

Yeh, probably all those who have over a hundred tracking cookies on their PC unoticed already:)

If it only specs hardware there isn't an issue, people will have a case for asking proof of that I guess.

[Kriss]

The game will be DRM free after around 18 months - this will ensure that you can always play the game, as we have listened to your concerns about servers being unavailable in the future.

Missed that first read, that's good news at least.

[Muzchap]

Kriss - Yeah sorry - posted before I had finished typing, sat on a laptop and not used to the keyboard...

Happy to post up my hardware report - as an example?

The first thing support forums ask for is a DXDIAG which people post on a forum, this collects less information and is kept private

[Interloper]

Yeh, probably all those who have over a hundred tracking cookies on their PC unoticed already:)

No this is one of the main reason i also format i pc often which again leads me to the 5 limit installs. What should i do when i reached my 5 install limits ? I know for sure i installed fm08 more times ? I dont uninstall the game i format my harddrive. To be honest i'm not bothered with you looking at my specs i also said ok for valve to do with steam it just ****es me off with the 5 installs limit when i know i will install it more than 5 times and dont want to call some expensive support line in another country begging for more installs.

At last i will probably be forced to go download the damm game as a result of that.

The online activation is ok as long as it actually works (Not taking 2 hours to activate! or servers going down like it has been seen so many times before) but at the same time a bit bad that they arent turned on before release date, people always want the games as fast as possible and getting it one day early in the mail is great if you could only play it already... This just makes customers mad and if the illegal version is out already alot of people will download it instead.

But nice to see you guys are a bit open about it and dont have the 100% EA attitude about this but i hate this kind of protection by heart, all 3 times i had to activate my copy online i had problems with it (Spore, Half life 2 and bioshock).

[Kriss]

Kriss - Yeah sorry - posted before I had finished typing, sat on a laptop and not used to the keyboard...

Happy to post up my hardware report - as an example?

The first thing support forums ask for is a DXDIAG which people post on a forum, this collects less information and is kept private

That would be a nice idea.

Associated question, would people be able to run the diagnostic for themselves?

I can see how it would be very useful just on the evidence in these forums that many don't know much about their PC's or how to find it out.

I use Sysinfo myself.

[CaptainPlanet]

The first thing support forums ask for is a DXDIAG which people post on a forum, this collects less information and is kept private

Is this detailed in the games EULA?

If not, "ask" is the key word here.

You aren't asking, you're just taking, intentions may be honourable and the information minimal, but it's still taking and sending information.

If it's in the EULA and I sign up to send my details to you, then fine, if not I'm pretty sure it's a violation of something.

[GillsMan]

Hi All,

[*]The game will be DRM free after around 18 months - this will ensure that you can always play the game, as we have listened to your concerns about servers being unavailable in the future.

I think this should help resolve a lot of the concerns in this thread. I personally don't care if the game takes my hardware information, but I do know that many people vehemently oppose that. Quite why, I don't know, but that could prove to be the sticking point. Other than that, thanks for being open with us.

[mertle]

Hi All,

Let me introduce myself - I'm the person resposnsible for implementing this DRM protection system on FM09.

Let me try to rationalise the decision for you:

1) We did not want restrictive DVD checks, this is problematic on most PC's and both SecuROM and SafeDISC install low level drivers, along with blacklisting which can cause system instability. Also with the rise of EE-PC's we did not want to restrict the game to be authenticated on DVD media.

2) We have listened to your requirements and have tried to make this protection as unobtrusive as possible - please let me dispel some of the myths already circulating:

• The game does install a certficate at point of activation
  
• You can choose to remove / not remove this certificate when uninstalling
  
• There is a hardware feature called 'Insight' turned on - this will collect basic info about your machine - Hardware only (clockspeed, gfx card, memory, hdd size) - this will assist in future developments of the game - BUT can be turned off if it proves unpopular.
  
• There is no 'profiling' or 'monitoring' of how you play the game? Where this came from is beyond me?
  
• You do not have to be connected to the Internet to play the game? You only need to activate once and then you can keep on playing
  
• If you deactivate / activate - you will never need to beg SI / SEGA for an activation key? Why get upset about a procedure you haven't even experienced?
  
• The game will be DRM free after around 18 months - this will ensure that you can always play the game, as we have listened to your concerns about servers being unavailable in the future.
  
• There is NO blocking of D-Tools or Alcohol or any other program! We just stop you running a debugger whilst the game is running.
  

If you have any specific concerns, not outlined above, please post below and I will do my best to answer.

I realise people become very agitated with DRM solutions - but we have worked hard to ensure you receive the best possible experience, whilst we ensure the integrity of the game and try to generate the revenue required to keep this excellent game moving forward with the investment and development it needs - which is directly driven by you guys purchasing the game.

I have played FM and it's previous naming convention for many years, I remember good ole' Freddy Rincorn and Peter Smith - As a fan, I am doing my best to get the balance 'just' right - maybe some will feel we haven't achieved it this time, but I think we're very close.

A note about the DEMO - could you post specific information on that please - the demo doesn't have the activation in it? So not sure what problems you are experiencing?

My final parting message is - Do you really think we go out of our way to make your lives difficult? We want this game to be as succesful and enjoyable as you do - please stop and consider this before you post.

Regards,

Murray

good news over 18 months guess get it then but how will we know the copy we purchase from the shop is DRM free version.

On de-installing we got NO choice in the demo yet I still been left with certificates and a folder which has a TAG and details of hardware present.

Can I delete these from my machine without the need of specialist removal tools.

[cynet]

Steam I am very familiar with over the past two years through a game called Red orchistra and though the game is good the thing what stopped me many times playing it was steam and many times steams servers were going down it took ages to download updates and the game itself. But you do have a choice which is the retail or the download from steam I have bought the retail as I think steam sucks.

[philly_flyer10]

As said in my earlier post: DRM does have an effect on piracy. You won't catch out the hard-core crackers, but you will put off a lot of 'casual downloaders' and 'home copiers' and 'lend it of a mate'.

No it wont, the 5 activations makes it incredibly easy for the game to be shared, it encourages casual sharing as you dont even need to crack it now.

[feedthegoat]

I do think that SI should be a little concerned by the poll stats though, nearly 1,000 people have voted and a quarter of people who have voted won't be buying the game due to DRM, fair enough this is only a small percentage of people who know about these forums, but after the game is released and people deal with the DRM, how many may be put off from buying FM10?

I myself am still in two minds and really can't make up my mind, I've played the demo and absolutely adored it, but this whole DRM thing bothers me somewhat.

[MSCCG]

I do think that SI should be a little concerned by the poll stats though, nearly 1,000 people have voted and a quarter of people who have voted won't be buying the game due to DRM, fair enough this is only a small percentage of people who know about these forums, but after the game is released and people deal with the DRM, how many may be put off from buying FM10?

I myself am still in two minds and really can't make up my mind, I've played the demo and absolutely adored it, but this whole DRM thing bothers me somewhat.

Only the ones who haven't thought about it properly and read this:

http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1026

Yes, I am posting the same link in a couple of posts. But I think it's important that everybody reads this.

[Themistofelis]

http://www.securom.com/solution_ncd.asp

"Collect valuable customer data for 1 : 1 marketing activities "

[Muzchap]

Post 560 updated with my comments to reflect yours.

FeedtheGoat - we do take these polls extremely seriously - we are being as transparent with you as we can. I'm not sure what else we can do?

[Pele_10]

I have Bought every cm game and Fm game that has been released, im a massive fan. I have read through these posts with a keen interest, trying to keep an open mind. I have now reached my own opinion, I will Definatley not be buying FM09. To be honest i had never heard of DRM before, So i follwed every link posted and read up on it. It just seems to me that nearly everyone is against it. Im of the same opinion of a few of you, i buy a game, stick it in the CD drive and away i go. Yes going online to authenticate, or making a call to do the same thing, takes only a few moments. But why should i have to do that? i just want want to play the friggin game not have to fart about to get it on. FM08 will do me just fine.

[Vash420]

Miles states that the Mac version uses the usual copy protection, so I assume this means Mac users can play the game as soon as we have the disc?

[Äktsjon Männ]

• The game will be DRM free after around 18 months - this will ensure that you can always play the game, as we have listened to your concerns about servers being unavailable in the future.
  

if you lose the machine HDD failure / PSU drops off and fries system, we sympathise with you and have provided a 'manual' way to deactive through a webpage that will be linked to from the SI Site.

If these two points had been made public from the beginning there would have been much less controversy and less of these threads on here. This was the main worry for myself personally and I'm sure for many others as well, thank you for clearing it up.

[Kriss]

Muzchap added this to his earlier post, and nobody reads an old post twice:D

It resolves another of the much expressed issues.

"If you want to uninstall / reinstall you can do to bring back your licence - if you lose the machine HDD failure / PSU drops off and fries system, we sympathise with you and have provided a 'manual' way to deactive through a webpage that will be linked to from the SI Site.

We really are only trying to inconvenience the 'crackers' not you - the legitimate playing public. My thoughts were - I didn't like being restricted to a disc, but I want flexibility - hence you being in charge of your 5 licence seats. This is our first 'tentative' step into DRM and we wil rely on your support and feedback whilst we fine-tune."

[samdiatmh]

what happened to a good old product key?

never seen one on a FM case

seems to work fine for other people

and a DRM, what... music, pah

what's to stop this game appearing on Limewire/whatever in a week or so after being released

i'm recieving it in the post as an early christmas present

and authentication of 5 times

what happens when it goes wrong

install -lost data (incorrect deletion of a file) - 1

install - problem (doesn't process after 1 season) - 2

install - got bored of it (but rejuvenated after FM10 is announced) - 3

install - Problem occurs (no progression, restart) - 4

install - tampered with the DB too much - 5

oh look, i need to pay (AGAIN) for the same game

bloody pirates

[GillsMan]

I do think that SI should be a little concerned by the poll stats though, nearly 1,000 people have voted and a quarter of people who have voted won't be buying the game due to DRM, fair enough this is only a small percentage of people who know about these forums, but after the game is released and people deal with the DRM, how many may be put off from buying FM10?

I myself am still in two minds and really can't make up my mind, I've played the demo and absolutely adored it, but this whole DRM thing bothers me somewhat.

Hi. I live in Bas Vegas too. Horrible isn't it?

I have to say, I suspect many of the people who chose "no" to the poll were probably voicing their disaproval of the DRM, rather than actually stating that they will not buy the game because of it.

[Net Spend Tony]

I think SI are a bit like some of the people on here in that they dont want people playing the game early and some people here moaning about the DRM.

Who cares if the game has DRM as long as the game is stable and works and does it really matter if a few people have the game a few days early as long as they got it legally.

Some people have managed to get games early for years or dvd's and albums and what harm has it done? As I said I dont see what all the fuss is about when people get the game or about the DRM.

[Kriss]

what happened to a good old product key?

never seen one on a FM case

seems to work fine for other people

and a DRM, what... music, pah

what's to stop this game appearing on Limewire/whatever in a week or so after being released

i'm recieving it in the post as an early christmas present

and authentication of 5 times

what happens when it goes wrong

install -lost data (incorrect deletion of a file) - 1

Uninstall reinstall, no lost key

install - problem (doesn't process after 1 season) - 2

Uninstall reinstall, no lost key

install - got bored of it (but rejuvenated after FM10 is announced) - 3

Uninstall reinstall, no lost key

install - Problem occurs (no progression, restart) - 4

Uninstall reinstall, no lost key

install - tampered with the DB too much - 5

Uninstall reinstall, no lost key

oh look, i need to pay (AGAIN) for the same game

bloody pirates

At least dream up some valid scenarios:rolleyes:

[feedthegoat]

Hi. I live in Bas Vegas too. Horrible isn't it?

I have to say, I suspect many of the people who chose "no" to the poll were probably voicing their disaproval of the DRM, rather than actually stating that they will not buy the game because of it.

That's the reason why I voted no. Just think we have to make it clear to the developers that we don't approve of DRM. Whilst I do agree that SI have to protect their work, there's no escaping the fact that the game will be available to download illegally on day of release, that is more than likely to happen, I won't download it illegally that's for sure, but all it is doing is inconveniancing (sp?) the loyal customers that do shell out their money for it, I will still buy the game, but I do not agree with this form of DRM being added to this game.

As a rule I won't be buying the game on Friday anway, not that I don't want to, I'm skint. Literally . Damn you Christmas!

Oh, and Basildon isn't that bad, Southend's worse !

[chopper99]

The posts by Muzchap havepretty much aleviated the concerns I had about DRM. Well done to SI/Sega for listening to peoples concerns and making an effort to find a way round them.

And I totally agree with what Mike was saying just above me, I very much doubt that many of the people who claimed in the pole that this will stop them buying the game actually won't buy it. Otherwise there'd be little point the being on this forum.

[Muzchap]

**Copy Protection**

Whilst I realise in previous years the game was cracked ahead of release, we are trying our hardest to prevent this scenario this year.

The more we can do as an industry to prevent this, the better - but unfortunately, it's like the government and speed bumps outside schools - they only listen after fatalaties occur. We are trying to find a blend of protection / usability that works for everybody - so please do keep giving us feedback -although I would respectfully request you actually try it before dreaming up a million hypothetical situations We can all do that

I know it's easy to get frustrated, but please DO try the system before 'judging' it - we tried over 20 different protection systems and this was by far the easiest and least intrusive.

Please do keep the questions coming - my work load is manic, but I will read and reply to every post - this is how seriously we take your questions - every single player is important in FM09, so please never feel marginalised.

[Muzchap]

what happened to a good old product key?

never seen one on a FM case

seems to work fine for other people

and a DRM, what... music, pah

what's to stop this game appearing on Limewire/whatever in a week or so after being released

i'm recieving it in the post as an early christmas present

and authentication of 5 times

what happens when it goes wrong

install -lost data (incorrect deletion of a file) - 1

install - problem (doesn't process after 1 season) - 2

install - got bored of it (but rejuvenated after FM10 is announced) - 3

install - Problem occurs (no progression, restart) - 4

install - tampered with the DB too much - 5

oh look, i need to pay (AGAIN) for the same game

bloody pirates

Hi, there is a product key It's on the back of the manual.

I think you need to understand 'OUR' DRM system and not confuse it with the 'others'.

Your approach would judge all 'cars' as equal - this simply isn't the case.

We have chosen a refined and well measured DRM approach, with many, many hours spent ensuring the scenarios you list above do not happen.

If you uninstall the game, you can choose to get your deactivation back, PC dies - no problem - visit the URL provided and deactivate that way. Its your key and your responsibility to manage it - I mean - this is a 'management' game after all

Please do keep your concerns coming - all valid concerns that people could have...

[LFCfan]

Mertle's reaction seems like the typical kneejerk reaction that I've seen to a lot of companies that have instituted DRM.

If there are files and folders left after an uninstall, just manually delete them. If they don't delete even after a reboot, boot into safe mode and delete them. It's more likely that the files were locked as the operating system thinks they are still in use.

[mertle]

Post 560 updated with my comments to reflect yours.

FeedtheGoat - we do take these polls extremely seriously - we are being as transparent with you as we can. I'm not sure what else we can do?

thanks for the heads up but done a screen shot of what not been removed but due to sensitivity wont host it on pic site and want a means to send you it privately.

But if your saying DRM was not present on the DEMO then what was installed which did not erase itself. I did not use steam or torrent method I got it from the gameshadow methods strawberry if it helps.

[feedthegoat]

Quick question for Muzchap.

If I authenticate the game via the telephone, how does the game know how many times I've installed/uninstalled the game and how many 'seats' I have left? This is my major gripe as my gaming PC is not connected to the internet. Also if I forget how many 'seats' I have left is there anyway of finding out how many I've used/got left.

Hope this question is clear.

[Muzchap]

I have Bought every cm game and Fm game that has been released, im a massive fan. I have read through these posts with a keen interest, trying to keep an open mind. I have now reached my own opinion, I will Definatley not be buying FM09. To be honest i had never heard of DRM before, So i follwed every link posted and read up on it. It just seems to me that nearly everyone is against it. Im of the same opinion of a few of you, i buy a game, stick it in the CD drive and away i go. Yes going online to authenticate, or making a call to do the same thing, takes only a few moments. But why should i have to do that? i just want want to play the friggin game not have to fart about to get it on. FM08 will do me just fine.

Hi, sorry you feel this way. The process is very simple and this is a NEW DRM approach. Sometimes in life you have to make unpopular decisions and stand out from the crowd, we have done this, but at every stage we have put you the consumer first - every scenario was how will this affect the consumer - you all know Miles , do you really think he would allow something that affected your gameplay experience?

Of course professionally I would urge you to reconsider, but personally, I would add - every story has two sides - it's often wise to get both before making a 'knee-jerk' reaction.

[GillsMan]

Please do keep your concerns coming - all valid concerns that people could have...

Can you please get your SI/Sega logo incorporated into your profile like the other official people have? Just makes it easier to distinguish your posts that way!

[Muzchap]

Quick question for Muzchap.

If I authenticate the game via the telephone, how does the game know how many times I've installed/uninstalled the game and how many 'seats' I have left? This is my major gripe as my gaming PC is not connected to the internet. Also if I forget how many 'seats' I have left is there anyway of finding out how many I've used/got left.

Hope this question is clear.

Hi.

Thanks for the question - if you activate by phone - would try online, it's a labourious process to say the least - then the IVR system speaks to the same server as the 'online' activation, so it knows how many seats you have activated.

Of course, you can find out how many seats you have left by contacting Customer Services. But I would recommend only doing this if you hit specific problems.

I hope that clears up any concerns you have - feel free to PM me if you need to speak about any other concerns in private - same to anybody else reading this thread.

I would definitely (from a personal perspective) recommend online authentication - it's less than 5 seconds. Telephone whilst effective is around 5-6 minutes and is tiresome and frustrating (personal opinion).

[Kriss]

Can you please get your SI/Sega logo incorporated into your profile like the other official people have? Just makes it easier to distinguish your posts that way!

Or a special one, a dead parrot maybe?

[Themistofelis]

After i buy a CD it is my CD and you have not a saying on what i am going to do with it , when developers want to have a saying on things you legally own punish them with your wallet .

Who the hell are you to tell me on how many computers i am going to install MY game? i own 35 , now what?

Who the hell are you to gather information about my rig ?

Who the hell are you to dictate me what programs my firewall allows to pass ?

Who the hell are you to post "we allow" crap ? do i need your permission to use my property?

It isn't the design it is the ethics behind it , you are not going to have any control over the products i own , if you think you can do whatever you want you are dead wrong and your sales will be hammered even if you bring the pope to post in the forums.

What's next , DRM beds when you can only get on with your wife?

I very much doubt that many of the people who claimed in the pole that this will stop them buying the game actually won't buy it.

Wishful thinking haha , wait for the stars to start shining over the Amazon .

[Pele_10]

Hi, sorry you feel this way. The process is very simple and this is a NEW DRM approach. Sometimes in life you have to make unpopular decisions and stand out from the crowd, we have done this, but at every stage we have put you the consumer first - every scenario was how will this affect the consumer - you all know Miles , do you really think he would allow something that affected your gameplay experience?

Of course professionally I would urge you to reconsider, but personally, I would add - every story has two sides - it's often wise to get both before making a 'knee-jerk' reaction.

To be fair, i don't think i have made a knee jerk reaction. I said i had a open mind, i read all the comments, good and bad, did some research and formed my own opinion from that. If i buy the game, its MY game to play on MY pc the way I want too, and if the only information that is being sent back is processing speeds ect, then all you's need to know is my PC is a brand spanker, top of the range. Us as comsumers should have a choice what information we share, not it being forced upon us.

[feedthegoat]

After i buy a CD it is my CD and you have not a saying on what i am going to do with it , when developers want to have a saying on things you legally own punish them with your wallet .

Who the hell are you to tell me on how many computers i am going to install MY game? i own 35 , now what?

Who the hell are you to gather information about my rig ?

Who the hell are you to dictate me what programs my firewall allows to pass ?

Who the hell are you to post "we allow" crap ? do i need your permission to use my property?

It isn't the design it is the ethics behind it , you are not going to have any control over the products i own , if you think you can do whatever you want you are dead wrong and your sales will be hammered even if you bring the pope to post in the forums.

What's next , DRM beds when you can only get on with your wife?

Ouch!

I would definitely (from a personal perspective) recommend online authentication - it's less than 5 seconds. Telephone whilst effective is around 5-6 minutes and is tiresome and frustrating (personal opinion).

Unfortunately that's not an option as the internet PC is at the other end of the house, still if it's a one time only activation I suppose I can bear the phone activation.

[tony1]

At least dream up some valid scenarios:rolleyes:

Kris, I had a problem with FM2008 and had to uninstall it completely from my system. Hit the uninstall button, restarted PC re installed, the problem was still there. I posted on here and was told to do a complete and utter uninstall, I had to go into the registry and manually delete H_KEY registry files. Now will this be the case with 2009 or will it be sufficient to just hit the uninstall button and not loose a licence. I know some people on here have difficulty installing updates and are not all knowing PC experts so how will it work.

[Kriss]

.

What's next , DRM beds when you can only get on with your wife?

Excellent idea:D as long as it doesn't send back performance stats:o