Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[outlander]

Muzchap

Will the collected "data" be sent to the developers of the DRM or to SEGA/SI directly?

And another thing. You don't really caompletely believe your costomers and introduced certain things(5 installs) which shouldn't affect honest users but will restrict those who are unfair. Fair play, it's understandable.

But why should costomers believe you that you will only collect "basic" hardware info and not info about all installed programs. Users have no means to restrict you(unplagging the cable is a joke) like you have. Especially if the DRM developer has any access to it.

The only way is not to buy the game and look from the side for a year or two.

And a bit offtopic, but is there any reason why the game is not available in Russia on Steam?

[treble_yell_:-)]

* There is a hardware feature called 'Insight' turned on - this will collect basic info about your machine - Hardware only (clockspeed, gfx card, memory, hdd size) - this will assist in future developments of the game - BUT can be turned off if it proves unpopular.

* There is no 'profiling' or 'monitoring' of how you play the game? Where this came from is beyond me?

coupled with the ingame advertising

"This technology will automatically deliver location-based advertising and log and transmit certain information about your interaction with the advertising. If you do not wish to receive contextual advertising messages, do not play this game while connected to the Internet."

So Drm with monitoring software, and ingame ads which i assume again use some sort of monitoring software to tailor the ads , are you guys planning to put this on the box ?

These are pretty big issues in the PC gaming world atm , seeing in the UK pretty much no retailer will allow a return of pc software dont you think its decent to put it on the box so people can make informed decisions ?

Oh and lol at the fallout from these statements already , its hard to tell if internet noise actually will = lost sales, but its becoming a pretty hot topic on s good few forums now its confirmed your using insight.

Edit, steam pretty much does the most comprehensive census of trends in gaming hardware, yet they do it via an optional survey, if you want my system specs then ask, ill happily send you a dxdiag, really no need to use this feature ingame.

[marcoavgousti]

2 things, thats not the point you shouldnt have to

other thing is, if you read up a page or two you would see you can get all your authentications back online anyway. so even if you dont uninstall the game 5 times you can still get them back so its not an issue

if u can get all u codes back then whats the problem, everyone happy then. and i know u shouldnt have to but ppl shouldnbt have to get knocked over by buses or get cancer but they do.

[Dirky Diggler]

if u can get all u codes back then whats the problem, everyone happy then. and i know u shouldnt have to but ppl shouldnbt have to get knocked over by buses or get cancer but they do.

I think now the issue is what exactly the DRM sends, obviously its been said already it takes nothing personal just computer specs. But I guesss only time will tell after authentication. my copy is being sent out today too

[TeeWee]

Muzchap, thanks for your very enlightening answers. I especially rejoice at the 18 month plan (give or take a few months I suppose) to release a no-DRM patch.

What I find worrying is the collection of information. I really, really, really dislike this and I really urge you to patch this out ASAP.

18 month plan swings me back to "buy", but collecting information throws me back to the other end of the scale completely.

[TeeWee]

By the way, does the collection of information on the PC occur every time, or just on activation?

[tony1]

Muzchap. There is no 'profiling' or 'monitoring' of how you play the game? Where this came from is beyond me?

It came from the makers of Insight.

Insight tells you exactly how and when your customers use each of the features in your product. No more guessing — know exactly which features to invest in and which features to market and build your customer base around.

[GillsMan]

It always amazes me when people say they don't read the EULA. Call me anal, but I always read the EULA - not necessarily every word, but certainly I review the relevant sections and skim the information therein. The collection of data is certainly nothing new - FIFA titles do it for example.

I had wondered how the practise of taking data with no opt out provision was legal in light of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, itself a derivative (or at least related to) of the Data Protection Act 1998. However, it appears that, as no identifiable information companies are free to do so, providing they inform you of course.

It's not ideal, and I'm normally very cautious about my data. But, given that no identifiable data is obtained, I'm struggling to come up with a negative to this. While I'm slightly uncomfortable about the whole practise there doesn't seem to be any actual detriment.

[JonPaulWild]

I made a thread on here a few weeks back about how the game would use ingame advertising. Many people argused that it would be realistic to have advertising in a game around the pitch. I agree that would make it realistic, but my main concern was how deep was the ingame advertising.

This news about it 'talking to servers' about what I do with advertising is not something I wish to share. If I bought Fm2009 I would not like the idea of advertising in the game, and now the news about it using my internet connection to download advertisement to give you profits is something I find wrong.

Now if I bought the game I wouldn't be able to play it whilst I have an internet window up, so do I now have to go into network connections and disable my LAN for me to stop SI/Sega stealing my bandwidth?

Ironic - Si and Sega preach about people stealing their product via torrents, but perfectly to use our capped bandwidth to download advertising to users and to profit of it.

The decision to have ingame advertising was it Sports Interactive decision or Sega?

[Kriss]

Muzchap. There is no 'profiling' or 'monitoring' of how you play the game? Where this came from is beyond me?

It came from the makers of Insight.

Insight tells you exactly how and when your customers use each of the features in your product. No more guessing — know exactly which features to invest in and which features to market and build your customer base around.

It may well be optional Si may only be using part of the whole package or a version less those features.

It would make sense to clarify that rather than have another round of accusation/counter accusation.

[Dirky Diggler]

It always amazes me when people say they don't read the EULA. Call me anal, but I always read the EULA - not necessarily every word, but certainly I review the relevant sections and skim the information therein. The collection of data is certainly nothing new - FIFA titles do it for example.

I had wondered how the practise of taking data with no opt out provision was legal in light of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, itself a derivative (or at least related to) of the Data Protection Act 1998. However, it appears that, as no identifiable information companies are free to do so, providing they inform you of course.

It's not ideal, and I'm normally very cautious about my data. But, given that no identifiable data is obtained, I'm struggling to come up with a negative to this. While I'm slightly uncomfortable about the whole practise there doesn't seem to be any actual detriment.

Umm, Ok, your anal. But seriously, I would say 20 - 30% of people would read the EULA others just click it off straight away (Im one of them) hence why the EULA wouldnt stand up in court

[Kriss]

By the way, does the collection of information on the PC occur every time, or just on activation?

He stipulated on authentication only earlier.

[mattbuck]

The more DRM is incorporated into games, the lower the sales of games will be. If this poll is an accurate representation of the buying public (which I doubt, but it could be), FM09 has just reduced its sales by 27%.

Indeed, this is worrying for SI and for the future of Fm.

Hindsight it a wonderful thing, and i wonder in a few months time if SI/Sega come to regret this decision to put DRM in one of the most popular PC games of all time. Its not unusual to see FM dominate the sales markets for a long long time.

However, if sales are lower, then SI/Sega will probably take note and review the decision to use DRM next year.

Whilst i will still buy the game, i hope sales are lower and DRM is reconsidered for next year.

[Dirky Diggler]

I made a thread on here a few weeks back about how the game would use ingame advertising. Many people argused that it would be realistic to have advertising in a game around the pitch. I agree that would make it realistic, but my main concern was how deep was the ingame advertising.

This news about it 'talking to servers' about what I do with advertising is not something I wish to share. If I bought Fm2009 I would not like the idea of advertising in the game, and now the news about it using my internet connection to download advertisement to give you profits is something I find wrong.

Now if I bought the game I wouldn't be able to play it whilst I have an internet window up, so do I now have to go into network connections and disable my LAN for me to stop SI/Sega stealing my bandwidth?

Ironic - Si and Sega preach about people stealing their product via torrents, but perfectly to use our capped bandwidth to download advertising to users and to profit of it.

The decision to have ingame advertising was it Sports Interactive decision or Sega?

I dont think its advertising they are beaming in, rather than how you play the game, how many people play it access things through match squads rather than off the pull down menus, do they right click on individuals or do the left click on players then choose options at bottom etc. ways that you play the game and things, so they know what is used frequently and what isnt wheere they need to invest and stuff.

Thats what I hope anyway, If they were firing live ads into the game, I guarantee there would be uproar with the customers, unless of course they gave a massive discount or gave it away for free if they could throw advertisments at you

[JonPaulWild]

I hope the reviews online and in the magazines make it known to the user about the DRM and the use of ingame advertising in FM 2009.

I wonder why Miles didn't talk about this in the YouTube videos whilst promoting Fm2009. Talked about 3d engine, overhaul of transfer system but nothing about in game advertising, why not?

[Dirky Diggler]

Indeed, this is worrying for SI and for the future of Fm.

Hindsight it a wonderful thing, and i wonder in a few months time if SI/Sega come to regret this decision to put DRM in one of the most popular PC games of all time. Its not unusual to see FM dominate the sales markets for a long long time.

However, if sales are lower, then SI/Sega will probably take note and review the decision to use DRM next year.

Whilst i will still buy the game, i hope sales are lower and DRM is reconsidered for next year.

The poll is only a representation of the people on this forum, so it would be 27% of people on this forum. Which is a very small proportion of the total consumer base, so your probably looking at more of a 5-10% overall loss in sales due to DRM. But probably similar or higher increase if the DRM works and it isnt Cracked fully or cracked properly within the first month of its released. Bear in mind FIFA manager has still yet to be fully cracked and its been out a while now

[Muzchap]

All the previous years where FM used a disc-check, have you ever been this many threads from people complaining and refusing to buy the game? Maybe the people inside SI towers have a different definition of "restrictive" than many consumers.

Maybe you should have visited the boards for some of the other DRM restricted games as well. Then you would have seen that it's the restrictions rather than the choice of DRM that makes many people refuse to buy the game. Fallout 3 uses SecuROM to just perform the good old disc-check and no one seems to have any problems with that. Actually I've seen many people who refused to buy Far Cry 2 because of its restrictive DRM, choose to spend their money on Fallout 3 instead.

The "insight" program supplied for the DRM solution contains 3 insight features: License insight, Feature insight and Hardware insight.

You admit to using the hardware insight, since Miles claims to be able to see if more than one person uses the game, then I would guess that you are also using the license insight, so is it really that far fetched that you would also be using the feature insight?

The feature insight is described as this:

How is that not "monitoring", and shouldn't the user be able to turn off these insight features, rather than hoping that the software developer chooses to at some point?

Exactly what does "DRM free" mean? Does it mean unlimited activations, or does it mean that you install the game, apply the patch, and then every single trace of the DRM is completely removed from the system? If it's the second option, then maybe I will consider buying the game 18 months from now.

Well you can buy a Windows cd and install it on 1000 computers if you like, but like FM you won't be able to activate it on more than a few of those computers, so what's the point?

Thank you for your post - If I say we are ONLY using Hardware Insight - then that is ALL we are using? Where is the benefit in me lying?

If you took the time to understand how DRM works, you would quickly figure out how we can tell how many licences are being used. It has nothing to do with the 'Insight' product - which is completely separate from the DRM system.

The term DRM free - is exactly what it says on the 'tin' - DRM FREE (can I be any clearer?)

Well have fun playing Windows then

[Muzchap]

I personally can't stand DRM and refuse point blank to buy any game with it on.

I am forever re-building my pc and generally re-install windows every month or two.

Now whilst I apprecaite that an uninstall will give me a licence back, I know for a fact, that at some point, I will need to re-install windows and totally forget to uninstall FM09 first. My fault I know, but I legally own the game. I should be able to install and re-install this 100 times a day on my machine, should I choose to do so (without the need for internet or phone calls).

DRM has upset myself and many of my friends. Whilst I choose not to buy a copy of a game with DRM, I would never download a pirated version either. Yes, it may be 'cutting my nose off to spite my face' but I would rather go without a game than support DRM.

They say that it's to prevent piracy. Take Spore for example. This has become the most downloaded pirated game ever. Why? Because of DRM. I do not condone it, but I know people who would have happily bought it without DRM, because of DRM, they downloaded it for free.

The more DRM is incorporated into games, the lower the sales of games will be. If this poll is an accurate representation of the buying public (which I doubt, but it could be), FM09 has just reduced its sales by 27%.

Chris Waddle - Please read POST 560 - you will not have an issue in that circumstance...

[Muzchap]

Muzchap

Will the collected "data" be sent to the developers of the DRM or to SEGA/SI directly?

And another thing. You don't really caompletely believe your costomers and introduced certain things(5 installs) which shouldn't affect honest users but will restrict those who are unfair. Fair play, it's understandable.

But why should costomers believe you that you will only collect "basic" hardware info and not info about all installed programs. Users have no means to restrict you(unplagging the cable is a joke) like you have. Especially if the DRM developer has any access to it.

The only way is not to buy the game and look from the side for a year or two.

And a bit offtopic, but is there any reason why the game is not available in Russia on Steam?

Hi Outlander - I posted on the previous page 'exactly' what we collect. There is no such thing as 5 installs? Please go back and re-read Post 560 for clarification. I'm not in the habit of lying? All information will go to SI Games.

I think there is a localised 'Russian' version being produced as we speak - so please hold tight. (Can Marketing confirm?)

Pocha.

[tony1]

Thank you for your post - If I say we are ONLY using Hardware Insight - then that is ALL we are using? Where is the benefit in me lying?

Fine now we know, noted and filed away :-)

Now about this advertising thats supposed to be targeted at us, is it true, and how does this work ?

[Pele_10]

I hope the reviews online and in the magazines make it known to the user about the DRM and the use of ingame advertising in FM 2009.

I wonder why Miles didn't talk about this in the YouTube videos whilst promoting Fm2009. Talked about 3d engine, overhaul of transfer system but nothing about in game advertising, why not?

Probably to keep it quietish, i mean i wonder how many Potential fm09 buyers, who don't use these forums, know that its going to come with DRM and what DRm actually means. Im still waiting for a reply to my quesion regarding the box cover and if it states on there that it will contain DRM.

[Dirky Diggler]

Probably to keep it quietish, i mean i wonder how many Potential fm09 buyers, who don't use these forums, know that its going to come with DRM, im still waiting for a reply to my quesion regarding the box cover and if it states on there that it will contain DRM.

It probably wont, and why should it? I havent seen any games that states that its protected by secuROM or safedisc, so why should this say it has DRM?

It probably should say somewhere on it that it needs to be activated online once bought though

[Muzchap]

Muzchap, thanks for your very enlightening answers. I especially rejoice at the 18 month plan (give or take a few months I suppose) to release a no-DRM patch.

What I find worrying is the collection of information. I really, really, really dislike this and I really urge you to patch this out ASAP.

18 month plan swings me back to "buy", but collecting information throws me back to the other end of the scale completely.

Hi TeeWee.

Thank you for taking the time to read. The information collected is collected 'one-time' only, I've posted an example of the report we obtain - it's in no way personally identifiable to you. We do not collect or process any other information than what I published earlier.

Could you please give me a reason why you wouldn't want your anonymous machine specs to be collated for the purposes of helping with the development of the game? We did mull this over and considered it to be a useful exercise - I think we 'can' turn it off before release - so please put your arguments against here and I will hold the required discussions.

I can't say fairer than that?

[Muzchap]

Muzchap. There is no 'profiling' or 'monitoring' of how you play the game? Where this came from is beyond me?

It came from the makers of Insight.

Insight tells you exactly how and when your customers use each of the features in your product. No more guessing — know exactly which features to invest in and which features to market and build your customer base around.

Hi Tony1.

Ahh - ok - but we are and will ONLY ever be using Hardware Insight - as I have stated on numerous occassions

[Pele_10]

I hope the reviews online and in the magazines make it known to the user about the DRM and the use of ingame advertising in FM 2009.

I wonder why Miles didn't talk about this in the YouTube videos whilst promoting Fm2009. Talked about 3d engine, overhaul of transfer system but nothing about in game advertising, why not?

It probably wont, and why should it? I havent seen any games that states that its protected by secuROM or safedisc, so why should this say it has DRM?

It probably should say somewhere on it that it needs to be activated online once bought though

Fair comment, but i wonder how many would buy the game if they knew that information (regardless what it is) would be taken without their consent.

[JonPaulWild]

The sending of machine specs etc should be optional. Let the user decide if he wants to contribute or not.

The same with advertising...Let the user decide!

[Pele_10]

True JPW, but i think what is being said here in other words, is you either like it or lump it!

[Dirky Diggler]

Fair comment, but i wonder how many would buy the game if they knew that information (regardless what it is) would be taken without their consent.

Muz just stated it could be turned off, however one question for him, could it not be made optional? via a tick box or something similar

[Muzchap]

It always amazes me when people say they don't read the EULA. Call me anal, but I always read the EULA - not necessarily every word, but certainly I review the relevant sections and skim the information therein. The collection of data is certainly nothing new - FIFA titles do it for example.

I had wondered how the practise of taking data with no opt out provision was legal in light of the Privacy and Electronic Communications (EC Directive) Regulations 2003, itself a derivative (or at least related to) of the Data Protection Act 1998. However, it appears that, as no identifiable information companies are free to do so, providing they inform you of course.

It's not ideal, and I'm normally very cautious about my data. But, given that no identifiable data is obtained, I'm struggling to come up with a negative to this. While I'm slightly uncomfortable about the whole practise there doesn't seem to be any actual detriment.

Hi Gillsman, thank you for your comments - with hindisght, we should have put some kind of 'opt-in' checkbox, it's no excuse, but we were really at the 'wire' with this one.

It might be that if enough of you prefer the featured removed, we remove it and then add a 'check-box' on a Patch (first one unlikely) to allow you to send the information.

As it's anonymous, we really didn't see this kind of response happening, but again hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[tony1]

Hi Tony1.

Ahh - ok - but we are and will ONLY ever be using Hardware Insight - as I have stated on numerous occassions

MMMM good, and the in game adverts, or is that another figment of someones over used imagination

[JonPaulWild]

True JPW, but i think what is being said here in other words, is you either like it or lump it!

Not that it makes much difference but this whole fiasco has resulted me in canceling my pre-order.

SI have really disapointed me - I thought they were different and almost 'indie' like compared to other developers / publishers, but they've sold out. Shame on you Sports Interactive and Sega. Both you brand names are now tarnished.

[Muzchap]

I made a thread on here a few weeks back about how the game would use ingame advertising. Many people argused that it would be realistic to have advertising in a game around the pitch. I agree that would make it realistic, but my main concern was how deep was the ingame advertising.

This news about it 'talking to servers' about what I do with advertising is not something I wish to share. If I bought Fm2009 I would not like the idea of advertising in the game, and now the news about it using my internet connection to download advertisement to give you profits is something I find wrong.

Now if I bought the game I wouldn't be able to play it whilst I have an internet window up, so do I now have to go into network connections and disable my LAN for me to stop SI/Sega stealing my bandwidth?

Ironic - Si and Sega preach about people stealing their product via torrents, but perfectly to use our capped bandwidth to download advertising to users and to profit of it.

The decision to have ingame advertising was it Sports Interactive decision or Sega?

Hi JonPaul,

As you can imagine - there are for's and against's for every decision - it's inconceivable that the game will cater for every single person, therefore we have to aim for the middle on a 'bell curve' approach.

If you really do resent IGA, then yes, please do disable LAN, or stop FM09 using Port80 - as has been suggested previously.

[tony1]

Hi JonPaul,

As you can imagine - there are for's and against's for every decision - it's inconceivable that the game will cater for every single person, therefore we have to aim for the middle on a 'bell curve' approach.

If you really do resent IGA, then yes, please do disable LAN, or stop FM09 using Port80 - as has been suggested previously.

How is is targeted to individual users, through the IP address

[Pele_10]

Id just like to say, Muz thanks for taking time to answer our questions, it is appreciated.

[GillsMan]

Umm, Ok, your anal. But seriously, I would say 20 - 30% of people would read the EULA others just click it off straight away (Im one of them) hence why the EULA wouldnt stand up in court

You're potentially correct about the EULA not standing up in court (according to some US posters, it doesn't stand up in some American states), but for the wrong reason. The fact that people don't choose to read the EULA (and you're right - the vast majority of people won't read it) doesn't negate the EULA - many people don't read terms and conditions or small print (madness!), but that doesn't negate them.

Some people have argued that EULA's are not binding because of the fact you can only read them after the purchase. I'm not sure how that would stand up if challenged in the UK, but I can see the merit in that argument.

[JonPaulWild]

Hi JonPaul,

As you can imagine - there are for's and against's for every decision - it's inconceivable that the game will cater for every single person, therefore we have to aim for the middle on a 'bell curve' approach.

If you really do resent IGA, then yes, please do disable LAN, or stop FM09 using Port80 - as has been suggested previously.

If I wanted to purchase that I shouldn't have to go to the trouble of that. One thing I like about FM in the past has been the ability to do work stuff / browse Internet with FM windowed - now if I want that I have to have you guys steal my bandwidth to serve adverts in which I have zero interest in.

You could of just had a check box in the preferences section. It really doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

[Dirky Diggler]

Hi JonPaul,

As you can imagine - there are for's and against's for every decision - it's inconceivable that the game will cater for every single person, therefore we have to aim for the middle on a 'bell curve' approach.

If you really do resent IGA, then yes, please do disable LAN, or stop FM09 using Port80 - as has been suggested previously.

How does the IGA work then ?

[Dirky Diggler]

Id just like to say, Muz thanks for taking time to answer our questions, it is appreciated.

I second that

[Muzchap]

I made a thread on here a few weeks back about how the game would use ingame advertising. Many people argused that it would be realistic to have advertising in a game around the pitch. I agree that would make it realistic, but my main concern was how deep was the ingame advertising.

This news about it 'talking to servers' about what I do with advertising is not something I wish to share. If I bought Fm2009 I would not like the idea of advertising in the game, and now the news about it using my internet connection to download advertisement to give you profits is something I find wrong.

Now if I bought the game I wouldn't be able to play it whilst I have an internet window up, so do I now have to go into network connections and disable my LAN for me to stop SI/Sega stealing my bandwidth?

Ironic - Si and Sega preach about people stealing their product via torrents, but perfectly to use our capped bandwidth to download advertising to users and to profit of it.

The decision to have ingame advertising was it Sports Interactive decision or Sega?

Muz just stated it could be turned off, however one question for him, could it not be made optional? via a tick box or something similar

If I wanted to purchase that I shouldn't have to go to the trouble of that. One thing I like about FM in the past has been the ability to do work stuff / browse Internet with FM windowed - now if I want that I have to have you guys steal my bandwidth to serve adverts in which I have zero interest in.

You could of just had a check box in the preferences section. It really doesn't take a genius to work that one out.

HI JonPaul.

Whilst I realise you are frustrated with IGA - can we please keep this topic to DRM.

IGA has zero bearing on IGA - the amount of bandwidth it steals is minimal and you're probably playing, or have played games with IGA in them without noticing - anyway, that's a separate thread

The idea of 'check-boxes' - yes - a great idea and one that will definitely be noted for future titles. We are trying to push the boundaries here - yes we will make unpopular decisions, but we will listen to your feedback and we will work hard to ensure things like this are 'optional' in the future.

We certainly didn't expect the amount of comments generated on this topic(s) - but that's a lesson for us to take away and get right for a patch or next years product.

[Dirky Diggler]

You're potentially correct about the EULA not standing up in court (according to some US posters, it doesn't stand up in some American states), but for the wrong reason. The fact that people don't choose to read the EULA (and you're right - the vast majority of people won't read it) doesn't negate the EULA - many people don't read terms and conditions or small print (madness!), but that doesn't negate them.

Some people have argued that EULA's are not binding because of the fact you can only read them after the purchase. I'm not sure how that would stand up if challenged in the UK, but I can see the merit in that argument.

Your right of course, this is how people get caught out, by items in the small print, its small print for a reason. Ive yet to read positive small print that is loaded in the customers favour. I mean even ISP ads have the smallest upto and a massive 8 meg lol

[kirillblade]

Good author wrote good book. I bought it in the store and enjoy reading. Later i gave the book to my friend which also like good reading. Now question - where is the criminal there??? And other question - why we have other rules with pc-games? Or developers have other law-rules with writers (painters, regies...)?

[GillsMan]

Hi Gillsman, thank you for your comments - with hindisght, we should have put some kind of 'opt-in' checkbox, it's no excuse, but we were really at the 'wire' with this one.

It might be that if enough of you prefer the featured removed, we remove it and then add a 'check-box' on a Patch (first one unlikely) to allow you to send the information.

As it's anonymous, we really didn't see this kind of response happening, but again hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Hi Muzchap - you're not legally obliged to include an opt-in checkbox. I had thought that you would be under the directive I referred to, but you're not - because the data is anonymised. And because the data is anonymous, I'm struggling to find a problem with it. The fact is, I can't really see how it affects me. Some will call me naiive, but I work, in part, with data protection rules and I know a bit about the legality surrounding the collection of data, but I really don't have a problem with the process.

If you do include a checkbox, then you guys should be hailed for going above and beyond the legislation. If you don't, you're simply complying with the legislation anyway.

[treble_yell_:-)]

I dont think its advertising they are beaming in, rather than how you play the game, how many people play it access things through match squads rather than off the pull down menus, do they right click on individuals or do the left click on players then choose options at bottom etc. ways that you play the game and things, so they know what is used frequently and what isnt wheere they need to invest and stuff.

Thats what I hope anyway, If they were firing live ads into the game, I guarantee there would be uproar with the customers, unless of course they gave a massive discount or gave it away for free if they could throw advertisments at you

The advertising was in reference to another line in the EULA , specifically this one.

This technology will automatically deliver location-based advertising and log and transmit certain information about your interaction with the advertising. If you do not wish to receive contextual advertising messages, do not play this game while connected to the Internet.

Which is in reference to the fact the advertising hoardings ingame are clickable and take you out of game and opens your browser

That coupled with the use of insight (hardware only or not ) is really disappointing, Valve manage to do a really comprehensive census of their users every 6 months or so simply by asking them to do it, Im pretty sure if Si sent us all a survey we would all take part.

On a separate note i wish devs/publishers would start making details like this available on the box, a EULA isn't binding in any EU country, so no one reads it, yet the fact pc retailers wont accept games back coupled with this being hidden in something you can only read after you purchase the game.........

Hi Muzchap - you're not legally obliged to include an opt-in checkbox. I had thought that you would be under the directive I referred to, but you're not - because the data is anonymised. And because the data is anonymous, I'm struggling to find a problem with it. The fact is, I can't really see how it affects me. Some will call me naiive, but I work, in part, with data protection rules and I know a bit about the legality surrounding the collection of data, but I really don't have a problem with the process.

If you do include a checkbox, then you guys should be hailed for going above and beyond the legislation. If you don't, you're simply complying with the legislation anyway.

I find it hard to believe you work in data security yet are happy with programmes you have no control over having access to information on your PC , and im pretty sure there is legislation in place that a company has to make it clear to the consumer what they are installing on their PC pre purchase

[GillsMan]

Your right of course, this is how people get caught out, by items in the small print, its small print for a reason. Ive yet to read positive small print that is loaded in the customers favour. I mean even ISP ads have the smallest upto and a massive 8 meg lol

I should point out that I work for the Advertising Standards Authority - and the bit you refer to is kind of our fault! Mind you, what used to happen was they just wrote "Get 8Mb broadband!" when only something like 5% achieved that actual speed! Terrible.

[Muzchap]

Id just like to say, Muz thanks for taking time to answer our questions, it is appreciated.

Pele + DirkDiggler - Absolutely no problem, as both a professional representative of SEGA / SI and a personal player of the game - Its a pleasure to help fill in the knowledge gaps (where they exist) and to respond to your concerns.

Your comments are great, I will be cherry picking them for the 'post mortem' - a review we have post launch.

I promise you I will put all of the points raised forward to the relevant people, we will sit down, discuss and then work out what can be achieved.

It might be that we turn of 'Hardware Insight' before release and in the future make it optional, just like IGA as per Jon Pauls suggestion.

These are the kind of feedback comments that we require - if we could move away from the semantics of the DRM issue -and start looking at how we could improve the experience for you - that would definitely help

Anybody joining at this point =- Post 560 contains quite a lot of info about the DRM.

[mattbuck]

I just have to say fair play initially to Muzchap and SI, its good to see that feedback given will be noted for next years version or maybe this version with a patch.

Its a shame though that the community were not consulted first on this important matter. The community will always accept security protection, but DRM was always going to throw up more problems.

[Dirky Diggler]

These are the kind of feedback comments that we require - if we could move away from the semantics of the DRM issue -and start looking at how we could improve the experience for you - that would definitely help

Umm you could give me a free copy of the game, pre authourised if you like

[treble_yell_:-)]

Pele + DirkDiggler - Absolutely no problem, as both a professional representative of SEGA / SI and a personal player of the game - Its a pleasure to help fill in the knowledge gaps (where they exist) and to respond to your concerns.

Your comments are great, I will be cherry picking them for the 'post mortem' - a review we have post launch.

I promise you I will put all of the points raised forward to the relevant people, we will sit down, discuss and then work out what can be achieved.

It might be that we turn of 'Hardware Insight' before release and in the future make it optional, just like IGA as per Jon Pauls suggestion.

These are the kind of feedback comments that we require - if we could move away from the semantics of the DRM issue -and start looking at how we could improve the experience for you - that would definitely help

Anybody joining at this point =- Post 560 contains quite a lot of info about the DRM.

Its good you guys are being transparent now, i think transparency is the main issue with a lot of people over DRM, if the insight features had been announces when the original copy protection thread was made there would have been less whining, if someone would come out and tell us what the IGA entails then we wouldn't have to draw concussions from 2 lines in the EULA.

Im not averse to DRM and copy protection, im not against people installing stuff on my pc , i do however want to know the who what and where before i make my purchase though.

[jags4ever]

Jeez some of the posts on this thread are the most ******** postings I have read in a long time - and I post on the Something Awful forums.

[JonPaulWild]

Pele + DirkDiggler - Absolutely no problem, as both a professional representative of SEGA / SI and a personal player of the game - Its a pleasure to help fill in the knowledge gaps (where they exist) and to respond to your concerns.

Your comments are great, I will be cherry picking them for the 'post mortem' - a review we have post launch.

I promise you I will put all of the points raised forward to the relevant people, we will sit down, discuss and then work out what can be achieved.

It might be that we turn of 'Hardware Insight' before release and in the future make it optional, just like IGA as per Jon Pauls suggestion.

These are the kind of feedback comments that we require - if we could move away from the semantics of the DRM issue -and start looking at how we could improve the experience for you - that would definitely help

Anybody joining at this point =- Post 560 contains quite a lot of info about the DRM.

Sorry, but it does not need someone with a University degree to realize there will be a huge user backlash against all the stuff that's been implemented. Things like this should of been discussed before hand.

Opt In/Opt Out is a system that really a chimp could of thought off and that would of killed off a lot of debate. I'm so angry with Sega and SI.