Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[Chris Waddle]

Chris,

Ok - so just to confirm (ensuring I represent your standpoint correctly)

1) You do not wish to transmit information (know/unknown) (Hardware Insight)

2) You would like to disable IGA

3) You prefer disc authentication over DRM

It's a real shame you won't be buying a copy this year I had hoped there was something I could do to help you out, but unfortunately, even with IGA removed and Hardware Insight stopped - there's still the DRM guard module. Let's hope we can get a non-DRM version out quicker, in the hope that you will find it to your satisfaction.

Certainly some lessons to learn for FM10 - we will definitely be canvassing opinion from very early on. So please don't rule out FM forever.

As previously said, your replies have been much appreciated. Whilst you have alleviated any issues I may have with your data collection, ie I believe them to be fair, I cannot and will not buy a game with DRM.

Your 3 points are exactly as I see it.

If you get rid of DRM and Hardware Insight and make IGA optional I would be only too happy to go out and buy the game (assuming the patch fixes the known issues, but that's for another thread )

*edit* I would be happy with a hybrid activation system; as long as I have the option of making sure no software is installed.

[pele10]

As previously said, your replies have been much appreciated. Whilst you have alleviated any issues I may have with your data collection, ie I believe them to be fair, I cannot and will not buy a game with DRM.

Your 3 points are exactly as I see it.

If you get rid of DRM and Hardware Insight and make IGA optional I would be only to happy to go out and buy the game (assuming the patch fixes the known issues, but that's for another thread )

what he said

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Hi Michael,

Wow - that's a long post - ok let me try to answer for you:

Thanks for the quick answer (one reason I trust SI/Sega more than a certain other company is because they don't hide behind a wall of silence).

I take it the webservice will allow us to reclaim any activations that we have lost then?

The only other question I need answering is if we have Steam installed can we choose not to activate the boxed version via Steam? (Whilst I don't mind Steam, I prefer if possible not to have my games on Steam).

Also how come the decision was made to include the 5 install limit with the Steam version, is this just because the protection is built into the game files?

I think the main reason why there's been outcry on the forums is because the inital announcment was vague and left people thinking the worse - EA snuck the limited installs in their games in an underhand way (Well 2K Games started it with Bioshock - but EA have gone full stream ahead against many many complaints, and the popup demanding you buy a new copy was just beyond a joke), and other companies started to follow their lead, and then SI appeared to have followed as well, leaving most people to think the worst, especially when the annoucnment was nearly delivered in the same tone as EA's - shouting that we no longer need the disk in the drive, but whispering that we can only install the game a certain amount of times.

I think in light of how EA have acted recently, (which to be fair isn't your fault) the fm09 protection announcement may have gone better if you'd done a full annoucment at the time of Miles' general announcement, as from what you have said your system is the fairest system I've seen, and if you'd posted that infomation a few days ago many people would have been reassured. (Said with the benefit of hindsight )

I don't have a problem with DRM in general (I would like the game to be released without any kind of copy protection, though I understand your reasons for not wanting to do this - I do believe though that the vast majority of people would still buy the game, myself included) - what I don't like is when it interferes with other programs on my computer, annoys me or limits my abilty to play the game.

I feel for future releases it would be better to:

- Release full details of the copy protection in advance upfront - so people know what they are getting into.

- Disclose upfront what kind of infomation is transmitted and make it optional - I personally have no problem with the infomation you posted being gathered, as it will help improve the game, however some people may not want to give out the infomation, and a dialog box asking permission and stating what will be sent is polite and also reassuring, whilst a vague line in the EULA leaves people thinking the worst.

- See about the possiblty of still having the CD check for those people who don't want to activate and are happy with the CD (Though do it better than Company of Heroes who make you carry out a CD check after changing the graphics options).

- And always include the ability to de-activate/re-gain an install. So the paying customer with a valid key-code shouldn't ever lose the rights to play the game.

[Hamselv]

Hi - The problem with using SecuROM is that people also hate that product and it does install system drivers and blacklists legitimate applications.

I agree and I'm not a big fan of SecuROM either. I just find it interesting that a game like Fallout 3 has not received anywhere near the same amount of complaints as FM09, even though Fallout 3 uses SecuROM. Since Fallout 3 uses SecuROM to just perform a disc-check, it seems to me that what people really hate is the online-activation and limited installs that SecuROM and other DRM systems can be used for, rather than SecuROM itself. I'm not saying that SecuROM is the way to go, but at least to me it's interesting that lots of people prefer SecuROM and its "rootkit-like technology" instead of a less intrusive DRM system with online-activations and limited installs. Actually people didn't even start complaining about SecuROM before it started being used for online-activations.

I agree - a hybrid system is the way forward. Ok - perhaps I'm mis-reading your comments, but this definitely wasn't thought out in an afternoon - plenty of effort has gone into this decision.

I did put the afternoon comment in quotes, since naturally I know it wasn't done without any consideration. Still, all this debate and people like me not wanting to buy the game, seems to me as if perhaps it would have been a good idea to at least present the idea of putting DRM in FM before actually doing it, and then seeing how people reacted.

Well, 18 months was the outside window - hopefully it will come back closer to around 12 months.

That would be nice.

It's a shame to lose you as a customer initially. Thank you for participating in the debate, I'll ensure that your feedback is noted and we look to do something along these lines in the future. In the meantime if you use a good copy protection system - feel free to PM me and we'll investigate (that goes for everybody else too...)

Like you probably already know there's no perfect copy protection. Different people will be able to accept different restrictions, so I don't think you can find anything that will make everyone completely happy (except perhaps the hybrid approach). I do think it's worth noticing though that all the previous years there has been no where near the uproar that we're seeing at the moment, so disc-checks does seem to be accepted by the vast majority of users. Last year SI even used SecuROM, and like with Fallout 3, not many people had any problems accepting that.

Oh, and by the way. I think SI should have sent you to these forums a lot sooner, since you seem a bit more open minded about some of these things, and that might have kept some of the discussions here a bit more civilized.

[immateriaux]

From just a relatively quick read through this thread, I think I will be in the category of "not buying".

I don't like DRM, particularly when companies like Stardock work so effectively without it. Okay, there are times when it works fairly painlessly and I just get on and try to ignore it. But increasingly, especially since the release of Bioshock on PC, there has been a concerted effort to establish this new form of DRM that basically means that the PC that sits in the corner here, the one that I personally selected every cable, cable tie, hard disk, memory stick, cooler, fan etc etc and then assembled, and then partitioned and structured as I wanted, and then customised the OS to suit my needs and so on and so on, is no longer my PC. It belongs to 2K, Sega, EA and whatever else company decides to come stick their **** there and usually leave it there, no matter what I do with the purchased software itself.

Now I'm also reading here about getting adverts, having my hardware profiled to generously donate free market analysis (there was a time when I was rewarded for providing that type of info - I once won a game from EA having filled in such a survey). And when I go do a tidy and reinstall an OS, I have to remember to un-install all these new games or I may discover I've abruptly stopped owning them.

It's just too much and it's reaching the stage where I know I have to make a decision and refuse to indulge this erosion of my rights to own my PC. Bloody looking forward to the 3D engine too but no, I won't buy the game, not with this current set up.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

Unfair Contract Terms yes; Sale of Goods Act, no. Fwiw, I don't think any challenge would succeed. Having dealt with cases with people claiming under the Unfair Contract legislation (albeit from a non-legislative angle) I doubt anyone would have grounds upon which to mount a successful challenge (this is based on guess work though, so don't take this as definitive).

Sale of Goods Act would more possibly come into play if a shop refused to accept a return for rejection of EULA - which is quite possibly how this'll play out in the future the Shop v EULA, with the consumer, Trading Standards and OFT in the middle - once the technology catches up to the terms in the EULA we will be in for an interesting time. (Though from a consumer point of view, shops refusing returns maybe best in the long run as you'd expect/hope it to invalidate the EULA).

(Didn't PC World and one of the anti-virus companies have a spat a few years ago over the EULA, that resulted in EULAs on the boxes or clipboards?)

Though the thing that I expect would determine the fight in the future would be the result of the court case between the OFT and the Banks - if the Banks win that then the OFT is pretty much toothless, but if the OFT wins then it may have the stomach for more fights, but I think we have gone a little bit off-topic.

(It could all be solved by companies making fair, simple and plain EULAs)

[Dave.C43]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

What he said sums it up

[thesandman]

Copyright. To take it to the right level - if you're awarded (not given by contract design) the design for a television you can make that television. You can't sell the design on to someone else. The items you mentioned aren't covered by copyright, the designs for them, and computer games, are..

True. But you're talking about consumers. And as far as I'm aware, consumers are allowed to sell their televisions on second hand, regardless of the copyright behind the designs.

It's not like consumers are going to take FM09, change the game, and sell it on. That, I agree, would be illegal.

If you only buy the licence to the game, to play the game, but don't own it, try calling software companies (or music companies) and saying your disk is broken, send me another one free of charge so I can use my licence please.

Again, copyright. And it's that attitude that causes companies to introduce DRM and the like you gotta see it from both sides.

Books are copyrighted, and sold second hand. I'm sure that the second hand book trade hurts publishing houses, but they don't ban or outlaw people selling their books second hand, why should games developers?

Because it's computer software it's different? Rubbish, that's a terrible argument.

Because it's intellectual property? So are books.

[Hamenaglar]

After hearing about DRM I've made a decision I wouldn't buy the game no matter what and I suspect that won't be changed. I haven't played fm 2008. fm 2009 demo hasn't blown me away so I can bear out one year or more. The reason I won't be buying the game isn't so much because of activations (although I'm not thrilled about it and suspect something could just go wrong). They more stand on the principle. I want piracy extuinguished as much as anybody. However it is my belief that develepors and publisher (or most of them at least) are tackling this issue from the wrong side.

[ross21soccer]

From just a relatively quick read through this thread, I think I will be in the category of "not buying".

I don't like DRM, particularly when companies like Stardock work so effectively without it. Okay, there are times when it works fairly painlessly and I just get on and try to ignore it. But increasingly, especially since the release of Bioshock on PC, there has been a concerted effort to establish this new form of DRM that basically means that the PC that sits in the corner here, the one that I personally selected every cable, cable tie, hard disk, memory stick, cooler, fan etc etc and then assembled, and then partitioned and structured as I wanted, and then customised the OS to suit my needs and so on and so on, is no longer my PC. It belongs to 2K, Sega, EA and whatever else company decides to come stick their **** there and usually leave it there, no matter what I do with the purchased software itself.

Now I'm also reading here about getting adverts, having my hardware profiled to generously donate free market analysis (there was a time when I was rewarded for providing that type of info - I once won a game from EA having filled in such a survey). And when I go do a tidy and reinstall an OS, I have to remember to un-install all these new games or I may discover I've abruptly stopped owning them.

It's just too much and it's reaching the stage where I know I have to make a decision and refuse to indulge this erosion of my rights to own my PC. Bloody looking forward to the 3D engine too but no, I won't buy the game, not with this current set up.

That almost sums up my thoughts. Fair enough this DRM may go on without any problems but if this DRM is ok then where do you draw the line. What DRM will FM 10/11 have? I also would have opted to allow my hardware specs to be collected if asked. But to presume its ok is not right. SI do a better job than most and am I right in thinking the protection/data collecting/adverts etc is SEGA's department?

If so SI need to step in NOW. Protect their game, protect their fanbase.

[LFCfan]

If you only buy the licence to the game, to play the game, but don't own it, try calling software companies (or music companies) and saying your disk is broken, send me another one free of charge so I can use my licence please.

They are entitled to charge a nominal fee for packaging and shipping.

[Ritari]

What Chris Waddle has said here about DRM and IGA (and disc checks) sums it up for me as well. I will never buy a product with DRM, be it game, music, movie, or whatever. The same applies to software with adware/spyware in them. If they're optional, i.e. you can choose pre-install not to install them, then they're OK.

I don't even have a software firewall in my "gaming PC", it's protected from outside attacks through a different method, so I could not block FM09 from "calling home". Am I supposed to install a firewall software just to prevent this game from making unwanted connections to the internet? (That is if I were to get the game, after all. Won't happen with DRM.) My laptop has a software firewall of course, since it's a portable machine and used also in insecure networks, but I wouldn't play the game on it anyway, as it's a work-only machine.

Also, in post #560 the SEGA rep (whose name I forgot and won't bother to look up now) said something to the effect that the DRM won't block any software. Then in the very next sentence he contradicts this by saying it actually does that by blocking debuggers. Could you please make up your mind (and stop lying)?

This is once again an example of company policy done with naivety and disregard of other similar policies' failures (EA, for instance). (Brings to mind the recent municipal elections in my home country, Finland, where three municipalities had e-voting as an option to try the whole system out. The IT company which had developed the system never tested it on laypersons, but used in-house testers only. They also found a problem in the testing, but since for that to occur, the person voting would have to be a) stupid, b) incompetent, and/or c) illiterate. So they went ahead with the system. Guess what happened? Yes, some of the voters turned out to be just that and 232 votes were lost without the voters knowing their votes had been lost through their own actions. Now there's talk of having to reorganize the elections in those three municipalities, as more votes were lost in all three than the lowest number of votes required for election in each municipality. Now who turned out to be stupid or incompetent? It was later revealed that the touch screen GUI didn't work as well as intended, and that was probably the biggest reason behind the lost votes instead of voters not understanding the system.)

Regarding EULA's. Different countries have different legislation. FM is a global product (or close to it) so discussing UK law is not that helpful for other countries. If the EULA has been written with UK legislation in mind only and is legitimate there (I don't know if this is the case), then I hope SEGA and SI realize that in other countries it will not be so. In Finland, any EULA that you can read only after purchase is moot, that means the whole thing is moot. Also any specific points in it are moot, if they do not follow Finnish legislation. You can put whatever you desire in an EULA, but it will be a waste of paper/time/etc. since the law here is clear that illegitimate points won't stand in court. That applies to any kind of contract between two or more parties, and an EULA is just that: a contract between the publisher and the customer.

[KOP_007]

Good post, Ritari.

[KOP_007]

They are entitled to charge a nominal fee for packaging and shipping.

But that's not often the case is it? A lot of them charge a lot more.

[Dirky Diggler]

What Chris Waddle has said here about DRM and IGA (and disc checks) sums it up for me as well. I will never buy a product with DRM, be it game, music, movie, or whatever. The same applies to software with adware/spyware in them. If they're optional, i.e. you can choose pre-install not to install them, then they're OK.

I don't even have a software firewall in my "gaming PC", it's protected from outside attacks through a different method, so I could not block FM09 from "calling home". Am I supposed to install a firewall software just to prevent this game from making unwanted connections to the internet? (That is if I were to get the game, after all. Won't happen with DRM.) My laptop has a software firewall of course, since it's a portable machine and used also in insecure networks, but I wouldn't play the game on it anyway, as it's a work-only machine.

Also, in post #560 the SEGA rep (whose name I forgot and won't bother to look up now) said something to the effect that the DRM won't block any software. Then in the very next sentence he contradicts this by saying it actually does that by blocking debuggers. Could you please make up your mind (and stop lying)?

This is once again an example of company policy done with naivety and disregard of other similar policies' failures (EA, for instance). (Brings to mind the recent municipal elections in my home country, Finland, where three municipalities had e-voting as an option to try the whole system out. The IT company which had developed the system never tested it on laypersons, but used in-house testers only. They also found a problem in the testing, but since for that to occur, the person voting would have to be a) stupid, b) incompetent, and/or c) illiterate. So they went ahead with the system. Guess what happened? Yes, some of the voters turned out to be just that and 232 votes were lost without the voters knowing their votes had been lost through their own actions. Now there's talk of having to reorganize the elections in those three municipalities, as more votes were lost in all three than the lowest number of votes required for election in each municipality. Now who turned out to be stupid or incompetent? It was later revealed that the touch screen GUI didn't work as well as intended, and that was probably the biggest reason behind the lost votes instead of voters not understanding the system.)

Regarding EULA's. Different countries have different legislation. FM is a global product (or close to it) so discussing UK law is not that helpful for other countries. If the EULA has been written with UK legislation in mind only and is legitimate there (I don't know if this is the case), then I hope SEGA and SI realize that in other countries it will not be so. In Finland, any EULA that you can read only after purchase is moot, that means the whole thing is moot. Also any specific points in it are moot, if they do not follow Finnish legislation. You can put whatever you desire in an EULA, but it will be a waste of paper/time/etc. since the law here is clear that illegitimate points won't stand in court. That applies to any kind of contract between two or more parties, and an EULA is just that: a contract between the publisher and the customer.

It blocks debuggers that try and interfere with te FM process, not debuggers in general. If youdve have read further down the page he answered this by saying he ran a debugger whilst playing the game no problem. I think instead of calling it DRM they should have come up with a different name, because the words DRM just seem to bring out angry people. Even me when I first heard about it. Then when it was explained that the DRM was a one time only activation then no disc in drive, no limited installs etc I was fine with it. i dont see a problem with this DRM, the IGA on the other hand I do as I explained in a different post in a different thread.

[damienroden]

I'm sure a company wouldn't just send you a new disk, you would have to pay for the game again, surely.

[Ritari]

I'll add that I actually have an FM dedicated DVD-ROM drive in my "gaming PC". It is used to permanently house the game disc so that I don't have to pop it in every time I want to play the game. I've had this for years and years, and it's worked great and only cost like 30 €. I still have my other two optical drives that I can use for other purposes, so this solution hasn't hindered my other computing in any way. I took FM08 out of the drive some months ago, as I was more than a little disappointed with that game and haven't played it in five months, but that's besides the point. The drive was patiently waiting to have a new tenant in it in the form of the FM09 game disc. Now it will have to wait a bit longer, I guess.

[Ritari]

It blocks debuggers that try and interfere with te FM process, not debuggers in general. If youdve have read further down the page he answered this by saying he ran a debugger whilst playing the game no problem. I think instead of calling it DRM they should have come up with a different name, because the words DRM just seem to bring out angry people. Even me when I first heard about it. Then when it was explained that the DRM was a one time only activation then no disc in drive, no limited installs etc I was fine with it. i dont see a problem with this DRM, the IGA on the other hand I do as I explained in a different post in a different thread.

I know what he said later on. I've read the whole thread. But he did initially say just what I posted. The fact that he said something different later on just proves my point, i.e. not being honest at the onset, but having to start "apologizing" when pushed in a corner.

As far as I'm concerned, SI or SEGA has no right to block any software running be it a debugger debugging FM or not. It's none of their business what I do on my computer (especially since the whole EULA won't stand in court in my country, so any restrictions therein are moot by default).

Just out of curiosity. A lot of FM gamers like to use third party editors with their game. How is that possible now, since in the creation of those editors, the developers most probably have to debug the game? No more FMM, FMRTE, or Genie Scout for FM09?

[feedthegoat]

I'm with Chris Waddle on this, I've made my decision and I definitely won't be buying the game this year mainly down to the DRM, the information transmission and now something new that has come to light in game advertising.

It's a shame, as after playing the demo and really getting into it, I was considering getting it, but the IGA feature and the data collection are the final nails in the FM coffin for me. I've played every version of the game going back to 1992, this will be the first year that I won't have bought FM since then.

Can't help thinking that SI have sold out to the advertisers, Sega have a lot to answer for, and they will end up ruining a PC gaming institution.

[KOP_007]

Is this the way SI are heading?

http://www.videogaming247.com/2008/11/10/capps-we-really-need-to-make-strides-against-the-secondhand-market/

[daemonic]

I'm sure a company wouldn't just send you a new disk, you would have to pay for the game again, surely.

If you send them the broken/scratched/etc disc they'll send a replacement.

[Renegade7]

Well, for those who may know the cracked pirate versions had a BIG PROBLEM. The cracked file was fm.exe. Yes!The one that is getting updated everytime a new patch is on release!So when a patch was installed the fm.exe file was changed with the new one and the crack was gone! Meaning that if you replaced the cracked file again ,either you wouldn't be able to run the game due to a crash, or you would loose most of the upgrades the patch provided! So, given the fact that fm09 is SOOOO FULL OF BUGS, i think NO ONE would even thing about getting a pirate copy, considering that the new protection is much more complicated and you would propably won't be able to apply patches on a cracked version. Well mabye S.I. is putting bugs on purpose, (which is something i don't even wanna think about) so that you are forced to think twice before you obtain a pirate copy!But those who would buy the game anyway, have every right to get annoyed by DRMs and bugs and stuff like that!

[Adam.S]

Well mabye S.I. is putting bugs on purpose

Oh please.....

[ilbrant]

We really are only trying to inconvenience the 'crackers' not you - the legitimate playing public. My thoughts were - I didn't like being restricted to a disc, but I want flexibility - hence you being in charge of your 5 licence seats. This is our first 'tentative' step into DRM and we wil rely on your support and feedback whilst we fine-tune.

What about the second-hand market? With this DRM I can buy my boxed copy, install it and activate it. Then go to my nearest gaming shop and trade the game in. However, I'm still going to be able to play my new version of FM09.

Or is the intention to completely destroy the second hand market (including those who use last years version as the deposit on the new one)? Also, are the shops that take these games secondhand aware they me be being sold a dud?

If this has all been mentioned before, then I apologise for not reading the 800 odd posts. But if someone who has been following it can point me at a number where it's answered it would be much appreciated.

[Dirky Diggler]

Well, for those who may know the cracked pirate versions had a BIG PROBLEM. The cracked file was fm.exe. Yes!The one that is getting updated everytime a new patch is on release!So when a patch was installed the fm.exe file was changed with the new one and the crack was gone! Meaning that if you replaced the cracked file again ,either you wouldn't be able to run the game due to a crash, or you would loose most of the upgrades the patch provided! So, given the fact that fm09 is SOOOO FULL OF BUGS, i think NO ONE would even thing about getting a pirate copy, considering that the new protection is much more complicated and you would propably won't be able to apply patches on a cracked version. Well mabye S.I. is putting bugs on purpose, (which is something i don't even wanna think about) so that you are forced to think twice before you obtain a pirate copy!But those who would buy the game anyway, have every right to get annoyed by DRMs and bugs and stuff like that!

Once the copy protection is cracked, they will just use the same method to cracked the patch also. So its no inconvienience once they have managed to crack the original

What about the second-hand market? With this DRM I can buy my boxed copy, install it and activate it. Then go to my nearest gaming shop and trade the game in. However, I'm still going to be able to play my new version of FM09.

Or is the intention to completely destroy the second hand market (including those who use last years version as the deposit on the new one)? Also, are the shops that take these games secondhand aware they me be being sold a dud?

If this has all been mentioned before, then I apologise for not reading the 800 odd posts. But if someone who has been following it can point me at a number where it's answered it would be much appreciated.

This is a good point, Although what I think might happen is, you go install your game, authenticate it, take it and sell it on second hand, then the person who you sold it to would then have control over the licence, SO he could then de activate your copy online and leave you with a game you cant play. Im guessing shops may add it to a blacklist of games they wouldnt trade in, i think the second hand market in the UK is a grey area, Im not sure your allowed to sell on your licence to someone else, although I may be wrong. Well certainly the company may have a problem with it.

I dont think there should be a problem if you dislike the game and have no intention of playing it again you should be able to go sell it (All 5 seats intact of course) IT also cant be illegal becaus emany many shops buy second hand games from you, where do SIgames stand on this issue?

[Muzchap]

What about the second-hand market? With this DRM I can buy my boxed copy, install it and activate it. Then go to my nearest gaming shop and trade the game in. However, I'm still going to be able to play my new version of FM09.

Or is the intention to completely destroy the second hand market (including those who use last years version as the deposit on the new one)? Also, are the shops that take these games secondhand aware they me be being sold a dud?

If this has all been mentioned before, then I apologise for not reading the 800 odd posts. But if someone who has been following it can point me at a number where it's answered it would be much appreciated.

Hi Ilbrant - Any person buying the game secondhand would need to go to the deactivation page and wipe all previous licences - this would stop you playing. The reatilers are aware of the copy protection system being used, we discuss this very early on with them.

Thank you for raising a valid point - I'll add to the sticky I am creating

[DJdeMarco]

Hi Chris,

No problem - thank you for a constructive reply - this is important feedback.

Ok, so DRM is not for you - do you prefer Disc Based Authentication systems?

We are making this DRM free in around 18 months (or sooner - no definites yet), would you be interested at that point? The DRM would be removed by applying a patch.

If you could answer these questions, that would be great feedback to take into my meetings.

Although I am not Chris, I will happily answer those questions from my perspective as I have a very similar view.

As a customer, I prefer no authentication at all but understand the necessity to protect your work. CD-check systems were the lesser of two evils for me.

I would not be interested in buying the game after 18 months once the DRM is removed as the data would be way out and therefore not give as good a game experience. If no DRM was present from release (or was removed within 3 months) I would purchase the game, otherwise I won't.

[Muzchap]

What about the second-hand market? With this DRM I can buy my boxed copy, install it and activate it. Then go to my nearest gaming shop and trade the game in. However, I'm still going to be able to play my new version of FM09.

Or is the intention to completely destroy the second hand market (including those who use last years version as the deposit on the new one)? Also, are the shops that take these games secondhand aware they me be being sold a dud?

If this has all been mentioned before, then I apologise for not reading the 800 odd posts. But if someone who has been following it can point me at a number where it's answered it would be much appreciated.

I know what he said later on. I've read the whole thread. But he did initially say just what I posted. The fact that he said something different later on just proves my point, i.e. not being honest at the onset, but having to start "apologizing" when pushed in a corner.

As far as I'm concerned, SI or SEGA has no right to block any software running be it a debugger debugging FM or not. It's none of their business what I do on my computer (especially since the whole EULA won't stand in court in my country, so any restrictions therein are moot by default).

Just out of curiosity. A lot of FM gamers like to use third party editors with their game. How is that possible now, since in the creation of those editors, the developers most probably have to debug the game? No more FMM, FMRTE, or Genie Scout for FM09?

Hi Ritari,

I see you feel very strongly about this - we have made the decision to block a debugger attaching to FM09, this was the case on an all previously protected FM titles - both SecuROM and SafeDISC employ far greater restrictions than we do.

Unfortunately, it seems you weren't aware of the covertness of SecurROM and SafeDISC and now feel aggreived.

We could not find one single argument (that held water) to backup allowing a debugger to attach to the FM09 process.

Also - I'm not apologising, or lying - I have not been backed into a corner? I said we don't block programs - which to the majority would be D-Tools / Alcohol etc.

Fair point on the community tools - I'll ask somebody to look into that today.

[McMaster#28]

I'm not sure if it matters, but Genie Scout has (if you look in the editors forum) already in development for 09, so I guess he got around the restrictions somehow

[Muzchap]

I'm not sure if it matters, but Genie Scout has (if you look in the editors forum) already in development for 09, so I guess he got around the restrictions somehow

Well they will be editing the 'game' data, which is different to debugging the 'exe'

However, the issue was raised - I've passed to the relevant people and it will be tested (hopefully by close of play today)

[Muzchap]

I'm not sure if it matters, but Genie Scout has (if you look in the editors forum) already in development for 09, so I guess he got around the restrictions somehow

Well they will be editing the 'game' data, which is different to debugging the 'exe'

However, the issue was raised - I've passed to the relevant people and it will be tested (hopefully by close of play today)

Ok - just spoke to the 'testers' - the only supported Game Editor is the one that ships with FM09. We do welcome third-party tools, but how these tools are created is something we do not know.

[Ritari]

Ok - just spoke to the 'testers' - the only supported Game Editor is the one that ships with FM09. We do welcome third-party tools, but how these tools are created is something we do not know.

This may be another shot in the leg by SI, or it may not. The enthusiastic FM community is a big reason behind the success of the franchise and limiting that will likely have a detrimental effect.

As I see it, there is a very real possibility that any real time editor like FMM or FMRTE would need to have access to fm.exe both in development as well as in the running of the editor by the end user. That means that the creation of one would require cracking the game exe and using one would also require cracking the game exe. So only users of pirated versions would be able to make them and/or use them. Any expert out there care to enlighten me if I'm correct in this assumption? (I am not a developer/coder myself, but do know something about such matters having taken a couple of courses on coding in my youth.)

Genie Scout or any other similar scout tools would still work as they do not have to access fm.exe.

[Muzchap]

This may be another shot in the leg by SI, or it may not. The enthusiastic FM community is a big reason behind the success of the franchise and limiting that will likely have a detrimental effect.

As I see it, there is a very real possibility that any real time editor like FMM or FMRTE would need to have access to fm.exe both in development as well as in the running of the editor by the end user. That means that the creation of one would require cracking the game exe and using one would also require cracking the game exe. So only users of pirated versions would be able to make them and/or use them. Any expert out there care to enlighten me if I'm correct in this assumption? (I am not a developer/coder myself, but do know something about such matters having taken a couple of courses on coding in my youth.)

Genie Scout or any other similar scout tools would still work as they do not have to access fm.exe.

Well, let's wait for the Third Party Tools developers to comment. Your speculation and over dramatized posting is doing nothing to help the situation.

[JumbledSausage]

I have never attempted to develop a third-party app for editing games in Football Manager, but I imagine that if you wanted to edit a game "in-progress", like FMM does (I believe), I would have thought it would require access to the executables process.

As this is prohibited in FM09, I would've thought that, rather than having "in game" editors, these editors would move to editing the savegame file instead, which would be, inconvenient, but not impossible. They could still coexist quite nicely with Genie Scout because, well, they have different functions.

(I think).

[Pablos]

So how does the activation via phone works ? Is this meant to be the solution for guys without inet connection or is it still required? In the first case, if you don't want any of your PC data to be sent, you'd just restrict the application to acces the internet and activate the game by phone. Is this possible ?

[DANNY1000000]

Personally I dont like all this nonsense but this is one of the only games I ever play, so I will defo be buying it.

[JumbledSausage]

So how does the activation via phone works ? Is this meant to be the solution for guys without inet connection or is it still required? In the first case, if you don't want any of your PC data to be sent, you'd just restrict the application to acces the internet and activate the game by phone. Is this possible ?

You only need to activate one way - either through Steam, Online or by telephone. I think that activating by telephone is the solution for people without the internet yes.

As for the last part of your question...I'm sure Muzchap will be able to answer.

[Ritari]

Well, let's wait for the Third Party Tools developers to comment. Your speculation and over dramatized posting is doing nothing to help the situation.

And you (referencing SEGA) withdrawing the information on the DRM used until the last minute is the cause for my "over dramatized posting". This could have been done so much better resulting in a lot less hassle and aggravation from the community.

[GillsMan]

True. But you're talking about consumers. And as far as I'm aware, consumers are allowed to sell their televisions on second hand, regardless of the copyright behind the designs.

It's not like consumers are going to take FM09, change the game, and sell it on. That, I agree, would be illegal.

If you only buy the licence to the game, to play the game, but don't own it, try calling software companies (or music companies) and saying your disk is broken, send me another one free of charge so I can use my licence please.

Books are copyrighted, and sold second hand. I'm sure that the second hand book trade hurts publishing houses, but they don't ban or outlaw people selling their books second hand, why should games developers?

Because it's computer software it's different? Rubbish, that's a terrible argument.

Because it's intellectual property? So are books.

I haven't seen the EULA for this, but if you care to check the EULA's for most games with copy protection, or DRM similar to this, you'll find that the EULA makes it clear that the user is perfectly entitled to sell the disk on, second hand. This, however, is subject to an agreement that the user will remove all traces of the installation from their machine and will not continue to use the software after they have sold the disk on.

This is nothing new and has been around for ages. You are perfectly entitled to sell your stuff second hand, and nobody is trying to deny you that right.

[DANNY1000000]

This may be another shot in the leg by SI, or it may not. The enthusiastic FM community is a big reason behind the success of the franchise and limiting that will likely have a detrimental effect.

As I see it, there is a very real possibility that any real time editor like FMM or FMRTE would need to have access to fm.exe both in development as well as in the running of the editor by the end user. That means that the creation of one would require cracking the game exe and using one would also require cracking the game exe. So only users of pirated versions would be able to make them and/or use them. Any expert out there care to enlighten me if I'm correct in this assumption? (I am not a developer/coder myself, but do know something about such matters having taken a couple of courses on coding in my youth.)

Genie Scout or any other similar scout tools would still work as they do not have to access fm.exe.

These editors are cheating tools anyway, so good ridence to them if they dont work.

[GillsMan]

And you (referencing SEGA) withdrawing the information on the DRM used until the last minute is the cause for my "over dramatized posting". This could have been done so much better resulting in a lot less hassle and aggravation from the community.

As has ALREADY been admitted and acknowledged by Sega. So your post still is not adding anything to be perfectly honest. They've accepted this is the case. But at least they are being honest and open now. Try getting this level of openness from other companies such as EA.

[Ritari]

I have never attempted to develop a third-party app for editing games in Football Manager, but I imagine that if you wanted to edit a game "in-progress", like FMM does (I believe), I would have thought it would require access to the executables process.

As this is prohibited in FM09, I would've thought that, rather than having "in game" editors, these editors would move to editing the savegame file instead, which would be, inconvenient, but not impossible. They could still coexist quite nicely with Genie Scout because, well, they have different functions.

(I think).

I think you're right. A savegame editor would probably work with the DRM intact. Those are just so inconvenient to use like you said.

[Ritari]

As has ALREADY been admitted and acknowledged by Sega. So your post still is not adding anything to be perfectly honest. They've accepted this is the case. But at least they are being honest and open now. Try getting this level of openness from other companies such as EA.

I know. He started it by posting something "irrelevant" so I responded likewise.

I will be happy and stop bitching about it when they remove the DRM and IGA.

I don't really care what EA does apart from observing their numerous mistakes, and this is not an EA community so I would expect better than from them (which is happening).

[GillsMan]

I know. He started it by posting something "irrelevant" so I responded likewise.

I will be happy and stop bitching about it when they remove the DRM and IGA.

I don't really care what EA does apart from observing their numerous mistakes, and this is not an EA community so I would expect better than from them (which is happening).

Yeah, but I only really mentioned the EA thing as a basis of comparison. I think you have to appreciate the fact that Sega have come on here, held their hands up and admitted they should have provided more information from the outset. As for removing DRM and IGA - that's your choice, but I've long been a supporter of IGA and have long argued that this is the way forward (and I'd be VERY surprised if we don't see more of it).

It's a bit of a change, so it's natural that people won't like it. As for the DRM, I'm not a fan, personally, but only because it doesn't really work in my opinion. But it doesn't inconvenience me personally, so I don't really have a problem with it. That said, you have your opinion and your opinion differs from mine, which is healthy.

[Ritari]

These editors are cheating tools anyway, so good ridence to them if they dont work.

That's besides the point. And there are several non-cheating reasons for using them. For instance, lets' say you have edited the db to your liking with the official editor and started a new game. Then some time later you stumble upon an error, which you, being a perfectionist, can't stand. So instead of having to start a new game after fixing the db, you use one of the third party editors to fix it and continue your game. This is something I do quite often. I don't change the players' attribute values unless I feel they are completely wrong, but there are numerous other bits that might need changing during a game. The db is, after all, huge, so getting all fixed before hand is impossible.

[Themistofelis]

Genie scout reads the save game so it will work

FMM is a memory trainer reading game executable .

[Richardav]

These editors are cheating tools anyway, so good ridence to them if they dont work.

they are good for when you give chelsea and now man city lots of money.i never be chelsea but it be nice to see chelsea with more money then the rest of the clubs and trying to beat other clubs to top players.thats how it is in real football.its ok using the editor that comes with the game(i use it alot)but if im right the most you can give a club is 300 million on that editor.

[Hamselv]

What about the second-hand market? With this DRM I can buy my boxed copy, install it and activate it. Then go to my nearest gaming shop and trade the game in. However, I'm still going to be able to play my new version of FM09.

Hi Ilbrant - Any person buying the game secondhand would need to go to the deactivation page and wipe all previous licences - this would stop you playing. The reatilers are aware of the copy protection system being used, we discuss this very early on with them.

How would the already activated game on the original buyer's computer find out that the second-hand buyer has deactivated the previous licenses?

Does the DRM "phone home" once in a while to check if its license has been canceled?

If not then I can't see how that's possible.

[DANNY1000000]

they are good for when you give chelsea and now man city lots of money.i never be chelsea but it be nice to see chelsea with more money then the rest of the clubs and trying to beat other clubs to top players.thats how it is in real football.its ok using the editor that comes with the game(i use it alot)but if im right the most you can give a club is 300 million on that editor.

What club is going to spend £300m? Man City? Not so sure

[Tigger_Happy]

so hang on does this not lend itself to piracy? from my limited knowledge of this - anyone can buy the game and install it on 5 computers at any one time - now doesnt that mean you're going to get a lot of people going in with their mates a tenner each to buy the game and install it on each of their computers? or am i wrong on that?