Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[Necrodeemus]

Hi, glad to see this thread has some good 'sensible' debating going on. Some people refuse to still read posts though. Some people just don't want to read the answers. Oh well.

Firstly, Thank You Muzchap for answering alot of questions that have been answered. I got two points to make, I generally tend to waffle on a bit so I apologise for anyone unfortunate to read my whole post

Point One - The DRM dislikers.

Whilst I understand peoples perceived fears of being controlled, I find it quite ironic that around 96% of the users on this website (information gathered from looking on google right now) use a microsoft product which is currently installed on their chosen hardware. This product for the longest time has used some form of DRM, and has a restrictive licence of 1 install per machine. This product is the Operating System. This product requires online or telephone activation. This product also gathers computer hardware information. This product sometimes has more bugs than a crack whores matress in a brothel! And finally this product generally costs 4-8 times the amount of this game. So for people yelling that they wont buy a DRM product because of these restrictions need to consider what they already have on their machine.

Windows OS will not allow you to activate the product online if a major hardware has changed, you will need to call a Microsoft Customer Rep. I know this as I do it countless times a week in my job as a computer tech. Microsoft do this for a reason, they spent alot of money on their product, alot of money. Users pay for licenses, not the product. If Microsoft or any software company sold the product and not the licence of the product, what would stop anyone from 'purchasing' the software, rebranding it and selling it for a massive mark up? Nothing. This is why companies sell licenses and not products, this is why companies now include DRM.

Also that antivirus you have on your machine? The likelyhood is it contacts the software company at least 4 times a day, sending information back and forth. So we have two products installed on your machine before you have even considered buying the game. So please people, accept DRM, its the only way to protect our entertainment!

Unfortunately, whilst I am sure miles and co love their project and really like to make these games, the people who write out their cheques only care about one thing, as any business should do, money. If piracy is allowed to flourish companies do not make money. So they need to protect their software, thus they try different ways to do it. The only other way to make the margins they consider acceptable to continue designing this product would to hit to honest consumer, me and you, in the pocket. $ (pretend thats a pound sign, i recently emmigrated to canada) 30 is nothing in todays world. For the time you will spend on this game, you will get your monies worth I garuntee that! People want this product, I want this product, but if SI cannot stop piracy then I am going to have to pay a whole lot more in the future to make this product a viable project for SI! Consider that!

Point Two - The Piracy Issue.

And now smoothly I moved onto my second issue. We are all fans of this product, big big fans. There are very few products around the world that have such a loyal following with constant new games with data updates of this magnitude with many hundreds if not thousands of volunteers around the world putting effort into bringing us this data. We have all lived a fantasy because of it. I have won the champions league, yes I have!

Some of us, if not all of us are wary of DRM and its other names, I do not particularry like it and have seen many problems on many machines where problems occur because of it. ( I have seen alot of machines ). However, I truly understand why this has to be done. And as we go into the future, its unfortunately not going to get any better. However, we are a powerful voice, we are the many thousands who can slow the tide of change on this product we love. We can do our bit. Alot of us visit torrent sites, there is no use denying it. What we do on these sites set us apart though. I see someone posted a email link in this thread earlier regarding reporting piracy, I think it was piracy@sigames.com or something.

We should all as fans of this product we love, if we didnt love it, we wouldnt be posting here, we wouldnt allow our emotions spill out at every bug etc..

So I am going to post a few links which I am sure SI know about already, but if they don't I encourage them to read them, as well as the visitors to this site. If you see this product online, report it asap, we wont ever stop it happening, but sure as hell we can slow the tide, and possibly stop the DRM evolving more than it needs too.

How we can help stop this product being pirated. Email SI if you see any FM game being uploaded. Most sites have some rules.

[Links to torrent sites removed - albeit a bit late]

Like I said before if we stumble across stuff at download sites, SI can do something about it. Because of the DRM SI have put in place, the likelyhood is anything on these torrent sites will be removed because code will have to manipulated to circumnaviagate the DRM thus copyright and EULA infrigement.

So, lets do our bit..

Wow.. I sound so sensible

[treble_yell_:-)]

lol well done on posting links to torrent sites, im sure if we all email sega when copies appear on there.............nothing will happen

[Tigger_Happy]

so to ask this again since noone seems to answer it...

does this not lend itself to piracy? from my limited knowledge of this - anyone can buy the game and install it on 5 computers at any one time - now doesnt that mean you're going to get a lot of people going in with their mates a tenner each to buy the game and install it on each of their computers? or am i wrong on that?

[feedthegoat]

lol well done on posting links to torrent sites, im sure if we all email sega when copies appear on there.............nothing will happen

For everyone that is removed another two will be added.

All the developers are fighting a losing battle, and they know it. All they are doing by adding these pointless forms of 'piracy prevention' is hurting the honest, buying customers whereas the pirates are undoubtedly laughing their heads off and rubbing their hands with glee with yet another conquest won.

Pirates 1 Sega 0

[Korben_Dallas]

Hi,

DRM is a way for a developer / distributor to have some peace of mind... because it's really just an illusion. It ONLY hurts the legitimate buyers . The pirates still get the usuall DVD + no-cd crack. It's pointless.

As much as I don't really like DRM this system for FM09 sounds reasonable, as long as it works properly.

If I start getting errors activating or uninstalling then it becomes a problem.

So basically when you install the game, you connect to FM servers, authenticate and then you don't have to worry about it anymore?

Will I need the DVD when I want to install a patch or something?

I usually play FM on two different places (weekdays vs weekend) and I'd like to know if I don't really have to carry the DVD around.

Thanks

[Hamenaglar]

Hi, glad to see this thread has some good 'sensible' debating going on. Some people refuse to still read posts though. Some people just don't want to read the answers. Oh well.

Firstly, Thank You Muzchap for answering alot of questions that have been answered. I got two points to make, I generally tend to waffle on a bit so I apologise for anyone unfortunate to read my whole post

...

Tackling a problem from completely wrong side. You are acting as the pirates are the enemy: "They must be stopped at playing the game, no matter the cost". Are you aware that some pirates like to try out games before buying them. If I weren't a pirate at one point, I'd never buy any original game. I'll never buy a game before trying it out. If I buy a game, I buy it to support developers because I want to encourage them to keep making these kind of games. How the issue of piracy should be tackled is to encourage people to play and pay for games, not force them. If you try to force somebody to do something, especially young people (who are rebellious by nature) you are achieving a counter-effect.

Pirated games are not lost sales, but potentially more sales.

Also despite leaking weeks early on internet , TES 4: Fallout had huge sales in first week.

[feedthegoat]

Just to make one more point (I've made a few I know).

If a person has bought all the series going back to FM05, they are more than likely going to buy this years version too aren't they?

All the people who have bought last years game will no doubt buy this years game, but I don't reckon the same can be said of the piraters for downloading the game illegally. Bear with me on this please.

Let's say someone downloaded a pirated version of last years game from a torrent site, and really, really liked it, so much so he may think 'Hey this game is actually worth buying'. It's no doubt the wrong way of looking at it, but surely SI's sales figures haven't declined that much that they are blaming piracy?

Examples have been made of games that have been released in recent months that have had absolutely no protection whatsoever and sold well, yet SI's games in recent years have had minimal protection and still sold very well.

So it begs the question, how well would Football Manager 2009 have sold if it didn't have any kind of protection on it whatsoever with a good retail price (£19.99), I'd guess it would have been an absolute smash hit, and probably top the PC charts for the next year, Sega would have sold literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of the game.

Still, we'll wait and see how things go with the current situation.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Also despite leaking weeks early on internet , TES 4: Fallout had huge sales in first week.

fallout is not a TES game

J, and probably top the PC charts for the next year, Sega would have sold literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of the game.

Still, we'll wait and see how things go with the current situation.

fm08 sold ~1 million, fm is one of the few remaining pc centric games that still pulls big numbers

[Hamenaglar]

fallout is not a TES game

From what I've seen and heard it's far more TES than Fallout (you are talking with a hardcore FO 1 & 2 fan).

Just to make one more point (I've made a few I know).

If a person has bought all the series going back to FM05, they are more than likely going to buy this years version too aren't they?

All the people who have bought last years game will no doubt buy this years game, but I don't reckon the same can be said of the piraters for downloading the game illegally. Bear with me on this please.

Let's say someone downloaded a pirated version of last years game from a torrent site, and really, really liked it, so much so he may think 'Hey this game is actually worth buying'. It's no doubt the wrong way of looking at it, but surely SI's sales figures haven't declined that much that they are blaming piracy?

Examples have been made of games that have been released in recent months that have had absolutely no protection whatsoever and sold well, yet SI's games in recent years have had minimal protection and still sold very well.

So it begs the question, how well would Football Manager 2009 have sold if it didn't have any kind of protection on it whatsoever with a good retail price (£19.99), I'd guess it would have been an absolute smash hit, and probably top the PC charts for the next year, Sega would have sold literally thousands if not hundreds of thousands of the game.

Still, we'll wait and see how things go with the current situation.

It is indeed my opinion that by lowering prices (or creating mechanisms that would allow players to buy game for lower price with certain condition) it could go a long way to boost the sales.

[Richardav]

What club is going to spend £300m? Man City? Not so sure

in the balance not transfer kitty

[Andy[ro]]

The problem is that FM09 will eventually be cracked, and the only people who will have problems playing FM will be those who buy the game and make some errors, losing their licenses. This DRM is just a big mistake.

[michaeltmurrayuk]

With FM09 having activation copy-protection rather than disk protection, does this mean in the UK at least that we have regained the legal right to make a backup copy of the disc? (Not that we really need to now that the game will sit safely on the bookshelf in its box after being installed).

[immateriaux]

Hi, glad to see this thread has some good 'sensible' debating going on. Some people refuse to still read posts though. Some people just don't want to read the answers. Oh well.

Point One - The DRM dislikers.

Whilst I understand peoples perceived fears of being controlled, I find it quite ironic that around 96% of the users on this website (information gathered from looking on google right now) use a microsoft product which is currently installed on their chosen hardware. This product for the longest time has used some form of DRM, and has a restrictive licence of 1 install per machine. This product is the Operating System. This product requires online or telephone activation. This product also gathers computer hardware information. This product sometimes has more bugs than a crack whores matress in a brothel! And finally this product generally costs 4-8 times the amount of this game. So for people yelling that they wont buy a DRM product because of these restrictions need to consider what they already have on their machine.

That's a really ludicrous analogy (as is your anti-virus one) but, nevertheless, the fact that Microsoft, or whoever, has done something that has gone wrong and caused plenty of grief in its time, is hardly a reason for smugly suggesting everyone else do something similar.

You could have provided a more pertinent comparison perhaps, how about top selling successful software that does not have to resort to infiltrating peoples' PCs, people who have bought the game, solely to try punish those who have not bought the game at all? Why not make that comparison instead?

[thesandman]

I haven't seen the EULA for this, but if you care to check the EULA's for most games with copy protection, or DRM similar to this, you'll find that the EULA makes it clear that the user is perfectly entitled to sell the disk on, second hand. This, however, is subject to an agreement that the user will remove all traces of the installation from their machine and will not continue to use the software after they have sold the disk on.

This is nothing new and has been around for ages. You are perfectly entitled to sell your stuff second hand, and nobody is trying to deny you that right.

Not what Miles says...

Our system does not limit the amount of times you can install the software though, as if you uninstall the game, you can install it as many times as you like.

The license that you have to agree to to install the game with as many of our releases that I can remember previously only allowed one install on one computer at any one time.

If anything, our new system improves on that. And with the same licensing agreement mentioned above, it already prohibits the user from renting or selling on the license that you have purchased to be able to play the game - so the second hand market was not a consideration at all for us, as no one should be selling any of our previous titles that had said license agreed to.

Personally, I think it's a bad decision to ignore, or restrict the second hand market. That's how I'm dipping my toes back in the water to see if I'll buy 09. I bought a second hand version - cheap - of 08. (I haven't bought a version since CM4 turned me away from any SI games).

If I like it, I'll buy 09. Lots of people do that - that option will now be removed.

But now a Sega rep is saying that second hand purchasers can wipe the existing licences - but Miles is saying it's not a consideration, so there's not even a uniform view between SI and Sega.

Personally, i think its ludicrous companies would try and do this for a product (software or not). Imagine if you had a licence to use your Dell computer. You couldn't sell it on after you'd had enough of it. You had to just chuck it out because it wasn't legal to sell it second hand.

[Necrodeemus]

That's a really ludicrous analogy (as is your anti-virus one) but, nevertheless, the fact that Microsoft, or whoever, has done something that has gone wrong and caused plenty of grief in its time, is hardly a reason for smugly suggesting everyone else do something similar.

You could have provided a more pertinent comparison perhaps, how about top selling successful software that does not have to resort to infiltrating peoples' PCs, people who have bought the game, solely to try punish those who have not bought the game at all? Why not make that comparison instead?

You contradict yourself in the way you speak, you start off implying my analogy is ludicrous, yet you say "infiltrate peoples pc". You make it like there is an agenda by SI or whoever has protection in there software. Like I stated before I am no particular fan of this, however I understand and appreciate why this is done.

My point here was that there is alot of people harping on about how there privacy is being invaded and how data is being sent to si and how many licenses you have on your pc. When the truth is there is software out there which is alot worse than this, which is already on a persons machine. Its just fear mongering on here when at the end of the day it wont affect anyone on here in anyway shape or form, and if for some strange reason you want to install it on all 35 machines in your office and every single HD crashes at the same time then SI have made provisions to deal with this.

At the end of the day, if you dont like it, dont buy it simple, but dont complain when a software company is just trying to protect its investment. You spend 10's+ millions of $$ and just put it on the market so it can be cracked to hell and see if your happy with that. Until I or anyone else on this forum can come up with a better solution that everyone likes and is secure, thats the way its going to be. I am sure SI would love to have a viable solution that makes everyone happy, so start making that software

[Muzchap]

Not what Miles says...

Personally, I think it's a bad decision to ignore, or restrict the second hand market. That's how I'm dipping my toes back in the water to see if I'll buy 09. I bought a second hand version - cheap - of 08. (I haven't bought a version since CM4 turned me away from any SI games).

If I like it, I'll buy 09. Lots of people do that - that option will now be removed.

But now a Sega rep is saying that second hand purchasers can wipe the existing licences - but Miles is saying it's not a consideration, so there's not even a uniform view between SI and Sega.

Personally, i think its ludicrous companies would try and do this for a product (software or not). Imagine if you had a licence to use your Dell computer. You couldn't sell it on after you'd had enough of it. You had to just chuck it out because it wasn't legal to sell it second hand.

Hi the Sandman - the problem is - you're taking two different contextual conversations and merging them. Whilst there is 'no consideration' to the second hand market being specifically applied - from a technical standpoint (my area), there is no 'barrier' to purchasing a pre-owned game.

I hope that makes sense.

[Muzchap]

so to ask this again since noone seems to answer it...

does this not lend itself to piracy? from my limited knowledge of this - anyone can buy the game and install it on 5 computers at any one time - now doesnt that mean you're going to get a lot of people going in with their mates a tenner each to buy the game and install it on each of their computers? or am i wrong on that?

Hi Tigger_Happy - this is indeed a possibility, the rationale behind it was 'empowering' our users. With all copy protection systems, people feel they are treated like criminals - what we were trying to achieve was a balanced product, giving protection with a blend of freedom. It seems we have failed to achieve our aims with the majority of people lambasting our protection system, without really trying it

But spot on observations

[Legends Wear 7]

So i can't be bothered reading the whole thread

bt well done Si this is great news, me and 4 mates are going to split cost of game and just install one copy on our 5 machines.

so thats only 1/5 of the potential revenue from us, i wonder how many more will do this, you've just created yourself a blackhole on your balance sheet.

[DJ]

So i can't be bothered reading the whole thread

bt well done Si this is great news, me and 4 mates are going to split cost of game and just install one copy on our 5 machines.

so thats only 1/5 of the potential revenue from us, i wonder how many more will do this, you've just created yourself a blackhole on your balance sheet.

So you're advocating SI restricting the users to one installation per person?

[Muzchap]

So i can't be bothered reading the whole thread

bt well done Si this is great news, me and 4 mates are going to split cost of game and just install one copy on our 5 machines.

so thats only 1/5 of the potential revenue from us, i wonder how many more will do this, you've just created yourself a blackhole on your balance sheet.

Hi Legends Wear 7 - Indeed a scenario that was put to me when asked to reduce the number of seats to 2. I argued that most people would be responsible and wouldn't run the risk of handing out their keycode to other people, who could effectively stop them playing the game. That's a risk you'll have to take - like I say - you're in control of 'your' key...

However, this kind of attitude does reinforce the belief that it should be 1 seat only and 1 concurrent play...

[Hamenaglar]

So i can't be bothered reading the whole thread

bt well done Si this is great news, me and 4 mates are going to split cost of game and just install one copy on our 5 machines.

so thats only 1/5 of the potential revenue from us, i wonder how many more will do this, you've just created yourself a blackhole on your balance sheet.

Here's a question. If you want to save money why not just play a cracked version and not pay for it at all. Is it the idea to punish SI because of using DRM? Or are you just taking advantage of the system. If you are worried because you are anti-DRM, then you are really tackling the issue from the wrong side.

[nerog]

I would rather no DRM, the drm stuff annoys the heck out of me. I haven't bought a lot of games lately for the PC mostly because of it. It's of no use to be able to give it and play with 5 friends simultaneously if i have to deal with drm. I have yet to see any DRM actually prevent piracy yet companies are adamant about having such a bothersome piece of software attached to their product. I think DRM is more in place because companies are trying to slowly shift the business models from buying a license to renting it without users knowing.

I don't mind if it's 1 concurrent play as long as it's more than one seat. I own 4 computers and i'm the only user for them, and I also tend to buy a new computer every 2-3 years. when i buy a game i expect to be able to use it in all 4+ computers. I can't play the game on all 4+ comps by myself at once, or well i could but i would rather not as i don't like to do that so i don't mind if i can't play it on more than one computer at a time.

As to IGA if it really made a difference in the product i wouldn't having it but since it's not that way if there is no option to turn it off without having to unplug you bet i'm going to go look for a crack of some sort. With introduction of something like IGA i either expect the game to have double digits of new features than the previous version or for the game to be cheaper otherwise i want no part of it, this is specially true if it uses some of MY resources no matter how little it may be. I don't think companies would be singing 'bout IGA if they had to pay the small usage of bandwidth for all their users. Only place i really find acceptable use of IGA is in F2P games.

[Legends Wear 7]

Here's a question. If you want to save money why not just play a cracked version and not pay for it at all. Is it the idea to punish SI because of using DRM? Or are you just taking advantage of the system.

cos i'm not the sort of person that steals.

but i am the sort of person to save money where i can, and buying the game for £25 shared amongst 5 saves us all money

and at the same time makes a mockery of this stupid drm idea.

[Legends Wear 7]

I would rather no DRM, the drm stuff annoys the heck out of me. I haven't bought a lot of games lately for the PC mostly because of it. It's of no use to be able to give it and play with 5 friends simultaneously if i have to deal with drm. I have yet to see any DRM actually prevent piracy yet companies are adamant about having such a bothersome piece of software attached to their product. I think DRM is more in place because companies are trying to slowly shift the business models from buying a license to renting it without users knowing.

I don't mind if it's 1 concurrent play as long as it's more than one seat. I own 4 computers and i'm the only user for them, and I also tend to buy a new computer every 2-3 years. when i buy a game i expect to be able to use it in all 4+ computers. I can't play the game on all 4+ comps by myself at once, or well i could but i would rather not as i don't like to do that so i don't mind if i can't play it on more than one computer at a time.

As to IGA if it really made a difference in the product i wouldn't having it but since it's not that way if there is no option to turn it off without having to unplug you bet i'm going to go look for a crack of some sort. With introduction of something like IGA i either expect the game to have double digits of new features than the previous version or for the game to be cheaper otherwise i want no part of it, this is specially true if it uses some of MY resources no matter how little it may be. I don't think companies would be singing 'bout IGA if they had to pay the small usage of bandwidth for all their users. Only place i really find acceptable use of IGA is in F2P games.

Tbh IGA does not bother me, i'll simply instruct my firewall to deny fm access to the net.

[Hamenaglar]

I would rather no DRM, the drm stuff annoys the heck out of me. I haven't bought a lot of games lately for the PC mostly because of it. It's of no use to be able to give it and play with 5 friends simultaneously if i have to deal with drm. I have yet to see any DRM actually prevent piracy yet companies are adamant about having such a bothersome piece of software attached to their product. I think DRM is more in place because companies are trying to slowly shift the business models from buying a license to renting it without users knowing.

I don't mind if it's 1 concurrent play as long as it's more than one seat. I own 4 computers and i'm the only user for them, and I also tend to buy a new computer every 2-3 years. when i buy a game i expect to be able to use it in all 4+ computers. I can't play the game on all 4+ comps by myself at once, or well i could but i would rather not as i don't like to do that so i don't mind if i can't play it on more than one computer at a time.

As to IGA if it really made a difference in the product i wouldn't having it but since it's not that way if there is no option to turn it off without having to unplug you bet i'm going to go look for a crack of some sort. With introduction of something like IGA i either expect the game to have double digits of new features than the previous version or for the game to be cheaper otherwise i want no part of it, this is specially true if it uses some of MY resources no matter how little it may be. I don't think companies would be singing 'bout IGA if they had to pay the small usage of bandwidth for all their users. Only place i really find acceptable use of IGA is in F2P games.

I agree on the issue of IGA. I'd probably go and buy a game that would lower significantly the price because it has IGA. I can't afford to buy many games and would welcome IGA as a means for the game to be more accesible to me. However because IGA isn't going to influence the price of game, I'm against it.

[TeeWee]

so to ask this again since noone seems to answer it...

does this not lend itself to piracy? from my limited knowledge of this - anyone can buy the game and install it on 5 computers at any one time - now doesnt that mean you're going to get a lot of people going in with their mates a tenner each to buy the game and install it on each of their computers? or am i wrong on that?

Yes and no. From a technical point of view, this is very much possible. From a piracy point of view though, I doubt that this type of piracy is the type of piracy that will hurt SI that much. Rather, the mass downloading (why split the cost if you can get it for free) is what hurts. And unfortunately, DRM does nothing against this.

[Hamenaglar]

cos i'm not the sort of person that steals.

but i am the sort of person to save money where i can, and buying the game for £25 shared amongst 5 saves us all money

and at the same time makes a mockery of this stupid drm idea.

It's still "stealing" and guess what. Next time you won't be able to install game on more than one computer. Even if you want to do that, why come here and brag about it. Don't you think it's better to keep it for yourself.

[Legends Wear 7]

It's still "stealing" and guess what. Next time you won't be able to install game on more than one computer.

er how is it stealing, i am buying a license for 5 installs.

its upto me how i choose to use them

and if it were one install only then i would not buy the game anyhow.

[Hamenaglar]

Yes and no. From a technical point of view, this is very much possible. From a piracy point of view though, I doubt that this type of piracy is the type of piracy that will hurt SI that much. Rather, the mass downloading (why split the cost if you can get it for free) is what hurts. And unfortunately, DRM does nothing against this.

Why do people have that common misconception that piracy hurts sales?

[Hamenaglar]

er how is it stealing, i am buying a license for 5 installs.

its upto me how i choose to use them

and if it were one install only then i would not buy the game anyhow.

yes, but it's still for personal use. Basically you alone should be playing it. Also if you are splitting the cost, which one of you is actually buying the license?

[Legends Wear 7]

yes, but it's still for personal use. Basically you alone should be playing it. Also if you are splitting the cost, which one of you is actually buying the license?

purchase price of the 5 licenses £25, i pay £25

from that point on its my choice how i manage those licenses, the sega guy has said as much himself.

[JumbledSausage]

er how is it stealing, i am buying a license for 5 installs.

its upto me how i choose to use them

and if it were one install only then i would not buy the game anyhow.

No. You are buying a licence for 5 installs for use on your machines, not your machine and four of your friends.

Personally, I don't care what you do, but if in future versions, SI and Sega decide to reduce it to one licence per pop, you (and others) coming on here and writing stuff like you did will have been part of their decision, and it will annoy me because I'll have to install on my desktop, and then uninstall and transfer to my laptop each time I'm away from home...which would be darn irritating.

[Hamenaglar]

purchase price of the 5 licenses £25, i pay £25

from that point on its my choice how i manage those licenses, the sega guy has said as much himself.

They said, they won't care, but from a legal standpoint I don't think that is correct (but I'd have to read EULA). However you said you will split costs of the game. I seriously doubt you are that altruistic to buy the game yourself and then give free installs to your friends. Also it's not 5 licenses you are purchasing, but 1. You have a right according to he license to install it on 5 pc's that you own (I think).

[Indi75]

cos i'm not the sort of person that steals.

but i am the sort of person to save money where i can, and buying the game for £25 shared amongst 5 saves us all money

and at the same time makes a mockery of this stupid drm idea.

It's still "stealing" and guess what. Next time you won't be able to install game on more than one computer. Even if you want to do that, why come here and brag about it. Don't you think it's better to keep it for yourself.

Yes Hamenaglar, but this idiot hasn't thought about that, he's too busy getting on the DRM bandwagon. As muzchap has said, the majority of people here seem to have something to say without trying it. Legends Wear 7 will not be so smug when one of hs boyfriends crashes a PC, or reinstalls an O/S without uninstalling FM first. What happens then? He's gonna want his money back.

What happens if someone loses the disc, noone can reinstall even if they uninstalled.

...and my personal favourite... the kind of people tight fisted enough to try and share a £30 game five ways are always going to have at least one amongst them who thinks he can get more out of the venture and tries to sell an install on.... oh dear.

Sharing it in an attempt to boycot DRM is utterly laughable, and in reality no different to stealing it via torrent anyway.

Securom and Safedisk are more intrusive this year than they've ever been, I'm glad to see the back of them.

[Wakers]

Hi Legends Wear 7 - Indeed a scenario that was put to me when asked to reduce the number of seats to 2. I argued that most people would be responsible and wouldn't run the risk of handing out their keycode to other people, who could effectively stop them playing the game. That's a risk you'll have to take - like I say - you're in control of 'your' key...

However, this kind of attitude does reinforce the belief that it should be 1 seat only and 1 concurrent play...

I find it incredibly disturbing that a SEGA employee even mentioned that.

The day that happens, you will have killed pc gaming, completely and made piracy the norm.

If you want to stop piracy, go after the pirates, not the customers.

[thesandman]

Hi the Sandman - the problem is - you're taking two different contextual conversations and merging them. Whilst there is 'no consideration' to the second hand market being specifically applied - from a technical standpoint (my area), there is no 'barrier' to purchasing a pre-owned game.

I hope that makes sense.

Perhaps I am a little bit.

But to have one representative of the game saying it's illegal to sell your copy, and one saying its technically possible is sending mixed messages at the very least, regardless of the different conversations that lead to the comments.

Simple fact is - I bought 08 (second hand) to see if I would get back into FM (or CM of old) since boycotting SI over my anger/frustration at CM4 and the way it was handled by SI when it became apparent the game was (shall we say) not the best game ever.

Now, I find that 09 is the first incarnation of a 3d view (bringing back horrible memories of CM4 again).

If i was to buy 09, I'd probably buy it second hand (and then start to buy new again if I liked it). Now, I'm hearing that SI pay that no consideration (altho you're saying it's technically possible) to the second hand market. In fact, in their licence agreement to sell the game second hand is illegal.

My question is this. If the 5 lives (if you like!!) have been used up, how can I 'wipe' the existing installs? And if its easy to do so, then surely the 5 limit is arbitrary anyway?

My concern from Miles answer is this. I buy the game second hand, and find that 5 licences have been used. I then try and get them removed. SI's response is the same as Miles. "That's not a legal use of the licence, you're on your own buddy. Contact the seller".

Say what you like, that's going to stop me buying the game new or second hand. And therefore (possibly? probably?) costing SI future sales.

I could get a pirated copy and do the same. But I won't, I hate that and I work in IT and my ethics won't allow it. I'd rather buy a second hand, legit copy as a 'trial', than use a pirate. I would just walk away from FM again if I had no option to try out an older version with a legit second hand copy.

[Guest rgd]

In the process of deciding whether or not to buy 09 i find myself waffling over the drm issue and have a few questions which will likely determine this that I haven't seen answers for.

1) It has been stated that hardware insight is the only insight functionality being used. Does this mean that only the hardware APIs are installed or does the installation contain the license and feature functionality?

2) As far as I know, in their licensing agreements Uniloc reserves the right to update Insght as they see fit. Will this install provide them access to user installations to update their software?

3) Will blocking the fm.exe in a firewall prevent Uniloc from accessing my installation?

4) Uniloc's Terms of Service stipulate that their servers are used for activation/data collection. Is this the case with 09?

5) Are ALL Insight related files removed from my pc upon removal of the 09 demo/full game?

Re "5 seats = 5 users or 80% off" - notice the implementer of the insight system likes to use smiley faces in his responses to remarks like this, and this is exactly the type of thing license insight can monitor...and blacklist license keys for.

[HonkyDick]

If you want to stop piracy, go after the pirates, not the customers.

+1

The paying customer always suffers with this stuff.

Take the anti piracy stuff out and halve the price of the game and they'd sell twice as much. Anyone that pirates after that is either extremely poor or a "I've gotta copy this game just for the sake of it" type person that probably wouldn't have bought it anyway.

[tigerhgrrrrrr]

Im not defending knock off but this issue seems to have raised the following counter productive issues:

1/ People are being told they have "5 installs", that will feel like 5 opportunities to load wherever they like (as each install feels paid for in its own right and people get indignant about that) - despite the repeated warnings about "for own personal use" etc, so are more likely to share with friends and not feel like they are doing wrong

2/ I dont know anyone who has purchased knock off in preferance to the real thing, only where either they would never have bought the legal product at all due to price, or where the original product is unavailable.

3/ I suspect pirates of FM09 will now produce excellent looking counterfeits which will fool casual buyers, and by upping the price to a bit of a saving, rather than obvious cheapo pirate copy, will shift plenty of units which will be useless. After all you would only buy 1 copy of FM09 so the seller wont care whether it actually works or not - there are no repeat sales to consider.

[KOP_007]

No. You are buying a licence for 5 installs for use on your machines, not your machine and four of your friends.

Answer me this then....we have been told time and time again that we are more or less 'renting' FM now (even to the point that Miles has said you can't sell it second hand). We are purchasing a licence to play the game. We get 5 licences for personal use at a cost of around £25.

Legends Wear 7 goes into a shop with 5 of his mates, each with £5 in hand. How many licences each does that buy? Seems fair play to me.

[Themistofelis]

The thing with cm/fm franchise is that it comes a long way , it has a big loyal fanbase and most people go and buy it without really watching promo videos or reading pre-views / reviews ... it is a short of tradition buying the new football manager every year , now SI/SEGA comes and pee on fanbase's heads ... it is like having my gf accusing me of cheating her while i was playing pool , THAT annoying .

People who download games from torrents / RS / megaupload etc usually get +40 titles every year , they are not anyone's fan and they can never considered potential customers ( apart from those who first test and then buy ) , they never post in forums about copy protections because they don't have to deal with it .

3/ I suspect pirates of FM09 will now produce excellent looking counterfeits which will fool casual buyers, and by upping the price to a bit of a saving, rather than obvious cheapo pirate copy, will shift plenty of units which will be useless. After all you would only buy 1 copy of FM09 so the seller wont care whether it actually works or not - there are no repeat sales to consider.

Pirated copies are free and work perfect , also they get updated for every patch released .

*I really enjoyed the post with the trackers links , feel free to go in piratebay.org/legal and have fun yourself .

[TeeWee]

Why do people have that common misconception that piracy hurts sales?

I know, not every pirated copy means a lost sale and sometimes a pirated copy is used as an "evaluation" copy, or as an incentive not to buy exactly this game, but perhaps a sequel or a comparable game. But you can't deny that there are also pirated copies which do represent lost sales. Just as "hurts sales" is a broad and unquantified statement, the "helps sales" is just as unquantified and unsupported by real evidence (no, anecdotes are not evidence). Intuitively, I'd say the "hurts sales" is probably where the balance is, but how far it is into that end of the scale, well, no one knows.

And my point was actually not about whether or not this hurt the sales, but that the "license sharing" that Tigger_Happy was on about is probably (unsupported assumption on my part) insignificant compared to the amount of torrents etc.

[Muzchap]

purchase price of the 5 licenses £25, i pay £25

from that point on its my choice how i manage those licenses, the sega guy has said as much himself.

Hi Legends Wear 7 - I said you are 'free' to manage your licences - I never actually condoned your actions of you and 4 other mates purchasing the game - this is in contravention of the EULA.

However, nobody can force you to be responsible and do the decent thing - you guys asked for 'trust' and 'respect' - we're offering the olive branch (or trying to) - the results of this approach will be monitored and used to make future decisions.

Piracy does harm game sales - its the same as somebody walking into a warehouse and helping themselves to stock off the shelf. There is a tendancy for people reporting on piracy to over exaggerate and make ridiculous claims that piracy funds terrorism! That's never been my (personal) belief and I find stupid claims like this do more to damage our cause than to enhance it.

If you took 1 million pirated copies - working out the true number of people who would have purchased is the real trick - our estimations are between 1 in 4 and 1 in 7, depending on the popularity.

[data6930]

Hi Ilbrant - Any person buying the game secondhand would need to go to the deactivation page and wipe all previous licences - this would stop you playing. The reatilers are aware of the copy protection system being used, we discuss this very early on with them.

Thank you for raising a valid point - I'll add to the sticky I am creating

It is a shame SI were n't more open with the FM community and fully outlined the protection system you were using, surely us as players of the game should have been the first to hear well in advance about the copy protection and the use of Steam etc, never mind telling the retailers well in advance, so people could have made their choice whether to buy the game or not without now wanting to cancel orders (especially through Steam) without having a load of grief.

I have already stated i'm not buying it and the poll on here must be a worry to SI when almost a third of potential customers have decided not to buy the game. You need to get back to grass routes and involve the community and keep them better informed about the whole process of releasing a game. I can't help feeling that SEGA are putting pressure on the SI team with issues like the protection to be used.

Since Sega's involvement I think standards have dropped in the quality of the games released FM 2007 was ok but FM 2008 was n't without some major problems and there does seem already a lot of people not impressed with the demo released and with the added issues with people not buying the game due to the introduction of DRM it seems FM 2008 is going to get off to a good start. Perhaps SI should have stayed independent?

[data6930]

Hi Ilbrant - Any person buying the game secondhand would need to go to the deactivation page and wipe all previous licences - this would stop you playing. The reatilers are aware of the copy protection system being used, we discuss this very early on with them.

Thank you for raising a valid point - I'll add to the sticky I am creating

Hi Legends Wear 7 - I said you are 'free' to manage your licences - I never actually condoned your actions of you and 4 other mates purchasing the game - this is in contravention of the EULA.

However, nobody can force you to be responsible and do the decent thing - you guys asked for 'trust' and 'respect' - we're offering the olive branch (or trying to) - the results of this approach will be monitored and used to make future decisions.

Piracy does harm game sales - its the same as somebody walking into a warehouse and helping themselves to stock off the shelf. There is a tendancy for people reporting on piracy to over exaggerate and make ridiculous claims that piracy funds terrorism! That's never been my (personal) belief and I find stupid claims like this do more to damage our cause than to enhance it.

If you took 1 million pirated copies - working out the true number of people who would have purchased is the real trick - our estimations are between 1 in 4 and 1 in 7, depending on the popularity.

d this additional post so sorry for another post but one point I will pick up on with this message is that you state "Piracy does harm game sales". That is absolutely right but because of the introduction of DRM and people in quite large numbers stating they are not buying the game, won't some of them go down the route of using a pirate copy, thus increasing the level of people using the pirated game. DRM could in fact cause a major drop in sales if those potential customers went down the route of using a pirate copy of the game!

A point worth considering don't you think?

[Hamenaglar]

Answer me this then....we have been told time and time again that we are more or less 'renting' FM now (even to the point that Miles has said you can't sell it second hand). We are purchasing a licence to play the game. We get 5 licences for personal use at a cost of around £25.

Legends Wear 7 goes into a shop with 5 of his mates, each with £5 in hand. How many licences each does that buy? Seems fair play to me.

You are not buying 5 licences, you are buying one, 1, uno, single licence. You just have a right to install the game up to five times, without unninstalling it.

[Selleckta]

I have already stated i'm not buying it and the poll on here must be a worry to SI when almost a third of potential customers have decided not to buy the game.

While I agree that it would be silly to completely ignore the results of the poll, it would also be rash to presume that the poll is an accurate reflection of people's true intentions, and also representive of FM's overall user-base. That information will only be apparant when sales figures come in.

[pelicanstuff]

d this additional post so sorry for another post but one point I will pick up on with this message is that you state "Piracy does harm game sales". That is absolutely right but because of the introduction of DRM and people in quite large numbers stating they are not buying the game, won't some of them go down the route of using a pirate copy, thus increasing the level of people using the pirated game. DRM could in fact cause a major drop in sales if those potential customers went down the route of using a pirate copy of the game!

A point worth considering don't you think?

There's people on certain other forums who say they've never bought it before, but if a pirated version isn't available before release they'll buy it cause they don't want to wait. Looks like the protection may actually be doing its job...

[data6930]

While I agree that it would be silly to completely ignore the results of the poll, it would also be rash to presume that the poll is an accurate reflection of people's true intentions, and also representive of FM's overall user-base. That information will only be apparant when sales figures come in.

Quite right it is only the view of people in this poll but nonetheless sales have been lost and again only when sales figures come in will they no the impact of introducing DRM.

[data6930]

While I agree that it would be silly to completely ignore the results of the poll, it would also be rash to presume that the poll is an accurate reflection of people's true intentions, and also representive of FM's overall user-base. That information will only be apparant when sales figures come in.

There's people on certain other forums who say they've never bought it before, but if a pirated version isn't available before release they'll buy it cause they don't want to wait. Looks like the protection may actually be doing its job...

Not with you on that one i'm afraid DRM will without doubt get people to turn to using a pirated version of the game thus meaning SI will miss out on sales. DRM has been quite a big issue on these forums some for it and a lot against it. Those against would probably buy the game if DRM was n't part of the protection would n't they?