Will the DRM on FM 09 stop you from buying the game?

[eshaan]

Apparently spore is one of the most pirated games ever BECAUSE of DRM...if you believe what ll is being said on the amazon forums about EA, DRM and Spore

[Wakers]

Apparently spore is one of the most pirated games ever BECAUSE of DRM...if you believe what ll is being said on the amazon forums about EA, DRM and Spore

This is another point.

SI will be moaning about pirates again in the next few months. This time it's their own fault.

[TheOriginalJez]

Dude, learn the difference between Copy-protection and DRM PLEASE. I said this to you two days ago and you still havent.

Why is it "spore-like"? Because it gives us limited installs. End of Story.

It's just a greedy way of making more money at the customer's expense, and its not right. Just because your favourite game publisher does it doesn't make it any better than the system EA use.

The DRM was part of the Securom system... in the past Securom has just been copyprotection but newer versions of the system have gone a few steps further. (And I believe, I'm sure I'll be corrected if I'm wrong, was one of the main reasons SI went away from it this year)

Your license to play almost every game ends at one install. LEGALLY you are limited to one install. You have no right to more installs and in being granted them SI and any other games company are going above and beyond.

The legal proceedings against spore are down to the WAY it works not what it does.

[TheOriginalJez]

Sorry, double post.

[Wakers]

The DRM was part of the Securom system... in the past Securom has just been copyprotection but newer versions of the system have gone a few steps further.

SecureROM had nothing to do with EA's DRM service.

[digsy11]

This is another point.

SI will be moaning about pirates again in the next few months. This time it's their own fault.

I no absolutely nothing about computers, DRM or any other such things but I'd like to ask you a question (and to anyone else who cares to anwer),how many times do you install a new version of FM over the period of time that you play it?

[Wakers]

Your license to play almost every game ends at one install. LEGALLY you are limited to one install. You have no right to more installs and in being granted them SI and any other games company are going above and beyond.

Do you work for a studio or something? you make about as much sense as them.

You buy the game, at that point, short of selling it for your own profit, you can do whatever the hell you what you want.

Again, just because something is in an EULA does not make it right.

You sound like you don't want any rights? Quite frankly you're annoying me. You sound like you wouldn't mind if SI started telling us at what hours we're allowed to play the game and which teams we're allowed to manage.

[Wakers]

I no absolutely nothing about computers, DRM or any other such things but I'd like to ask you a question (and to anyone else who cares to anwer),how many times do you install a new version of FM over the period of time that you play it?

This is not the issue. The issue is that they're limiting the paying customer to make more money and driving them towards piracy.

I don't want to see FM09 become one of the most pirated games ever, like Spore was, like Red Alert 3 will be, but that's what's going to happen if they persist with this stupid idea.

[Miles Jacobson]

Apologies Miles but I'm sure you posted a blog or something somewhere where you decided against using SecureRom and instead decided to a different route - i.e. the DRM.

You should also be aware that most of us have read that sticky - it still doesn't make the use of DRM justified at all, especially not one that is "spore-like".

It was my decision to not use SecuRom, which is the system that was used last year, and the Spore system. Ours in not like the Spore system at all, as I have discussed in the sticky.

The new system is nothing to do with Securom or Safedisk, or any of the other systems we've used in the past. It's a new system, and one that I have no evidence to not support being used in our games, and no evidence that the system and customer support for it that will be provided for the system are going to be anything but better than we have been able to offer before for the legitimate customer.

I have done very lengthy searches for this info to see if the correct decision had been made and based on all the evidence presented to me, I support the decision that was made fully.

That's not to disregard the poll results, or those people who say that they have been put off buying the game. I am confident that we will win some of those back both before we release when I'm in a position to announce the "FM Club", which will hopefully be next week, and post release when people using the game can post their thoughts on the system that we are using, and the Steam system too.

[TheOriginalJez]

Do you work for a studio or something? you make about as much sense as them.

You buy the game, at that point, short of selling it for your own profit, you can do whatever the hell you what you want.

Again, just because something is in an EULA does not make it right.

You sound like you don't want any rights? Quite frankly you're annoying me. You sound like you wouldn't mind if SI started telling us at what hours we're allowed to play the game and which teams we're allowed to manage.

Please read the Berne convention. I am in support of copyright law because the industry I am in (music) depends on it as much if not more than the games industry, and it's required for anyone to make a living out of it. If you didn't have copyright law you wouldn't have games like this you wouldn't have mass-marketed and large scale music or any other massive creative works.

SecureROM had nothing to do with EA's DRM service.

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/technology/2008/09/spore-securom-d.html

[Wakers]

Please read the Berne convention. I am in support of copyright law because the industry I am in (music) depends on it as much if not more than the games industry, and it's required for anyone to make a living out of it. If you didn't have copyright law you wouldn't have games like this you wouldn't have mass-marketed and large scale music or any other massive creative works.

I'm also in support of copyright law. I just abhor the ******** ways that companies go about trying to enforce it.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Please read the Berne convention. I am in support of copyright law because the industry I am in (music) depends on it as much if not more than the games industry, and it's required for anyone to make a living out of it. If you didn't have copyright law you wouldn't have games like this you wouldn't have mass-marketed and large scale music or any other massive creative works.

I've read that 4 times, i don't believe you honestly believe that.

[digsy11]

This is not the issue. The issue is that they're limiting the paying customer to make more money and driving them towards piracy.

I don't want to see FM09 become one of the most pirated games ever, like Spore was, like Red Alert 3 will be, but that's what's going to happen if they persist with this stupid idea.

In what way is that not the issue? again how many installs do you make of FM during the period that you play that version?

Surely if you install it once your point is moot,if you uninstall it you get that seat back.

[Wakers]

It was my decision to not use SecuRom, which is the system that was used last year, and the Spore system. Ours in not like the Spore system at all, as I have discussed in the sticky.

The new system is nothing to do with Securom or Safedisk, or any of the other systems we've used in the past. It's a new system, and one that I have no evidence to not support being used in our games, and no evidence that the system and customer support for it that will be provided for the system are going to be anything but better than we have been able to offer before for the legitimate customer.

I have done very lengthy searches for this info to see if the correct decision had been made and based on all the evidence presented to me, I support the decision that was made fully.

That's not to disregard the poll results, or those people who say that they have been put off buying the game. I am confident that we will win some of those back both before we release when I'm in a position to announce the "FM Club", which will hopefully be next week, and post release when people using the game can post their thoughts on the system that we are using, and the Steam system too.

Sorry Miles, but it IS similar to the spore system, simply because you're enforcing a limit on installs in the aim of stopping second-hand sales. On the surface, it is very similar to Spore.

Surely you were aware of the fuss that kicked up over DRM on Spore? You should then have realised that as soon as the acronym DRM appears anywhere near your product there is going to be a backlash of some form or another?

[treble_yell_:-)]

In what way is that not the issue? again how many installs do you make of FM during the period that you play that version?

Surely if you install it once your point is moot,if you uninstall it you get that seat back.

People are against any sort of drm or copy protection that treats LEGITIMATE PAYING CUSTOMERS as potential thieves, yet has no effect on piracy, its a pretty big issue in PC gaming at the moment, maybe you should read up on it.

[Miles Jacobson]

SecureROM had nothing to do with EA's DRM service.

The product name is SecuROM, not secureRom.

And the EA DRM service as used in Spore and Mass Effect uses SecuROM.

[Wakers]

In what way is that not the issue? again how many installs do you make of FM during the period that you play that version?

Surely if you install it once your point is moot,if you uninstall it you get that seat back.

Simply put.

People who "steal" this game won't be affected by this DRM.

People who pay for the game are.

That's the problem - you're driving people towards piracy.

[Wakers]

The product name is SecuROM, not secureRom.

And the EA DRM service as used in Spore and Mass Effect uses SecuROM.

Guess I was wrong there then, sorry.

[digsy11]

People are against any sort of drm or copy protection that treats LEGITIMATE PAYING CUSTOMERS as potential thieves, yet has no effect on piracy, its a pretty big issue in PC gaming at the moment, maybe you should read up on it.

Can you please answer my question?

[treble_yell_:-)]

Can you please answer my question?

Your question is a moot point and has no bearing on the issue people have with DRM systems.

[digsy11]

Simply put.

People who "steal" this game won't be affected by this DRM.

People who pay for the game are.

That's the problem - you're driving people towards piracy.

Ok.In what way am I affected by it?

[TheOriginalJez]

I've read that 4 times, i don't believe you honestly believe that.

Pray tell, without it how would anyone make money out of creative works in a day and age where information is freely distributed over a network like the internet? When anyone has the right to use anyone elses work in any way they feel fit. Explain... please, I'm dying to hear it - it could rescue the major labels...

[digsy11]

Your question is a moot point and has no bearing on the issue people have with DRM systems.

So I buy the game.Install it once, maybe twice (including uninstall to format leaving me 5licences) what would be my problem?

[TheOriginalJez]

People are against any sort of drm or copy protection that treats LEGITIMATE PAYING CUSTOMERS as potential thieves, yet has no effect on piracy, its a pretty big issue in PC gaming at the moment, maybe you should read up on it.

Lets face it, legitimate paying customers are potential theives. Without at least one legitimate paying customer (or otherwise illegal leak) how would the pirates get their hands on a copy? And without it you'd have a lot more theives than before (my opinion, lets not get into that AGAIN)

[andysafc]

I bought FIFA Manager 09 a week ago and it arrived today which was the release day. I promptedly installed it but to my horror i couldn't play it. As with FM09 it has DRM and needs to be registered and then verified. Ok so i done that. But when entering the actication code it denied it! I entered it again, being careful not to make any errors. Denied again! Please phone tech support for assistance. Support number is Americian. Not a chance! It's on it's way back to Amazon for a refund.

FM09 is a different scenario as it offers a UK freephone number.

But you do feel cheated when you buy the game, install it but then can't play it until it becomes activated.

What is the world coming to?

They can stuff their DRM - i won't buy another product that requires it regardless of how good it is.

[eshaan]

Whatever happens i just hope DRM does NOT have the impact on FM as it has had on Spore. People are totally up in arms against EA over DRM. Wherever you go, whatever forum you read people are absolutely furious with DRM. Everyone feels they are being robbed(EA actually is commiting Daylight robbery). If controlling piracy is what SI wants, if you go by the results of Spore it is not going to work. Now if sometime in the future SI decide to pull the plug on the authentication servers then what happens to people who have paid for their game? It will be a worthless disc in your hand while the pirates will continue to play for as long as they wish. This system will only encourage people to shift to pirated copies as is the case with Spore. Visit this site : http://reclaimyourgame.com/. There have been lawsuits filed against EA.People HATE EA. Is this what SI wants? I prey im proven wrong but this has the potential to be the biggest mistake SI has ever made.

[Wakers]

Ok.In what way am I affected by it?

There are many ways you could be effected by it. DRM is never 100% accurate, it may not work for some people on release day.

You might legitimately install the game more than 5 times (although I guess you yourself won't) and then have to kindly ask SI if you can please play your game again.

People who have failing computers might not get chance to uninstall the game through no fault of their own and lose their installs that way.

Again, the issue here is that people who steal this game will not have to authenticate it. Which makes the whole thing pretty pointless.

[Miles Jacobson]

People are against any sort of drm or copy protection that treats LEGITIMATE PAYING CUSTOMERS as potential thieves, yet has no effect on piracy, its a pretty big issue in PC gaming at the moment, maybe you should read up on it.

I have done, at length.

My personal belief is that the system we are using treats legitimate paying customers much better than any of the systems that we have used in the past for copy protection.

As to whether it has an effect on piracy or not, neither you, nor I, can answer the question yet of whether or when Football Manager 2009 will be pirated compared to previous releases.

The people who know more about this side of things than me, and know more about the various systems our there, and the one that we are using this year, believe that it will have an effect. We can only really revisit that point when we know the answer to it with regards to this system, and this game.

[Wakers]

Lets face it, legitimate paying customers are potential theives. Without at least one legitimate paying customer (or otherwise illegal leak) how would the pirates get their hands on a copy? And without it you'd have a lot more theives than before (my opinion, lets not get into that AGAIN)

by that logic you'd send everyone to prison because they have potential to commit crime?

[Insert_Goal_Here]

So let me get this straight, if i buy the game, before i can play it i have to register it on the internet/ phone call whatever? what about people who don't have internet or a landline

[Wakers]

I have done, at length.

My personal belief is that the system we are using treats legitimate paying customers much better than any of the systems that we have used in the past for copy protection.

As to whether it has an effect on piracy or not, neither you, nor I, can answer the question yet of whether or when Football Manager 2009 will be pirated compared to previous releases.

The people who know more about this side of things than me, and know more about the various systems our there, and the one that we are using this year, believe that it will have an effect. We can only really revisit that point when we know the answer to it with regards to this system, and this game.

Miles, once the game has been cracked by one of the Scenes, what use is the DRM system against pirates?

The best way to actually combat pirates is to bloat the size of your game - most people in the UK have download limits. If your game is over 6gb people a) won't be bothered to let it download for days and b) won't want to use up a big chunk of their monthly cap.

[TheOriginalJez]

by that logic you'd send everyone to prison because they have potential to commit crime?

I didn't say that. Anyones also a potential saint. But you can't pick one person and say they're definately not gonna do it when you know nothing about them can you? It's a case of the few rotten apples who would ruining it for the many.

[digsy11]

There are many ways you could be effected by it. DRM is never 100% accurate, it may not work for some people on release day.

You might legitimately install the game more than 5 times (although I guess you yourself won't) and then have to kindly ask SI if you can please play your game again.

People who have failing computers might not get chance to uninstall the game through no fault of their own and lose their installs that way.

Again, the issue here is that people who steal this game will not have to authenticate it. Which makes the whole thing pretty pointless.

Obviously a lot of people have an issue with it.Me personally can't see a problem.If your pc fails 5times i would be worried about my computer not DRM.

[Wakers]

Obviously a lot of people have an issue with it.Me personally can't see a problem.If your pc fails 5times i would be worried about my computer not DRM.

You're just ignoring the big picture there.

This kinda stuff is 1984-esque.

[treble_yell_:-)]

Pray tell, without it how would anyone make money out of creative works in a day and age where information is freely distributed over a network like the internet? When anyone has the right to use anyone elses work in any way they feel fit. Explain... please, I'm dying to hear it - it could rescue the major labels...

Oh i dont know, maybe ask radiohead ?

If people think a product is worth paying for, then they will pay for it, there have been numerous examples over the last year, of bands releasing music for free etc in the hope it someone will hear their music and think wow these guys rock, im going to buy their album.

there recently was a survey by some small dev studios, they asked the pirates why do you pirate our games. Pirates responded, the devs took it on board and made changes to their working practices, offered more for the gamers money , better support, and dropped the price resulting in greater sales.

People will pay for something they perceive as being worth the outlay. I'd guess the types of people who download every new release off BT or are buying games down the market wouldn't pay for a game if they couldn't get it for free

I have done, at length.

My personal belief is that the system we are using treats legitimate paying customers much better than any of the systems that we have used in the past for copy protection.

As to whether it has an effect on piracy or not, neither you, nor I, can answer the question yet of whether or when Football Manager 2009 will be pirated compared to previous releases.

The people who know more about this side of things than me, and know more about the various systems our there, and the one that we are using this year, believe that it will have an effect. We can only really revisit that point when we know the answer to it with regards to this system, and this game.

I hope you're right, i personally think your one of the best pc centric dev houses left, and your from the UK so its great to see the company doing well, but lets be honest Miles, if the system limits piracy, it will be the first system in the history of PC gaming to do so.

[Wakers]

I didn't say that. Anyones also a potential saint. But you can't pick one person and say they're definately not gonna do it when you know nothing about them can you? It's a case of the few rotten apples who would ruining it for the many.

it made about as much sense as your car lock analogy did.

[eshaan]

Obviously a lot of people have an issue with it.Me personally can't see a problem.If your pc fails 5times i would be worried about my computer not DRM.

That is not the point! We are paying for this game so why should we be limited in anyway? No matter how crap your PC maybe that is not the talking point!

[Wakers]

Oh i dont know, maybe ask radiohead ?

If people think a product is worth paying for, then they will pay for it, there have been numerous examples over the last year, of bands releasing music for free etc in the hope it someone will hear their music and think wow these guys rock, im going to buy their album.

there recently was a survey by some small dev studios, they asked the pirates why do you pirate our games. Pirates responded, the devs took it on board and made changes to their working practices, offered more for the gamers money , better support, and dropped the price resulting in greater sales.

People will pay for something they perceive as being worth the outlay.

This is conveniently ignored by most of the gaming industry.

[TheOriginalJez]

Oh i dont know, maybe ask radiohead ?

If people think a product is worth paying for, then they will pay for it, there have been numerous examples over the last year, of bands releasing music for free etc in the hope it someone will hear their music and think wow these guys rock, im going to buy their album.

there recently was a survey by some small dev studios, they asked the pirates why do you pirate our games. Pirates responded, the devs took it on board and made changes to their working practices, offered more for the gamers money , better support, and dropped the price resulting in greater sales.

People will pay for something they perceive as being worth the outlay.

The radiohead model worked because they were already a massive act and they got 100% of the royalties made. VERY few working artists can say that. The usual model of record label still stands. And the fact remains that even with these few people supposedly making it with no outside help the vast majority of artists still require the backing of a record label in promotion and distribution to make a reasonable living from music.

[digsy11]

You're just ignoring the big picture there.

This kinda stuff is 1984-esque.

But you obviously know more about this than me so I'm intrigued to know what the ''big picture is''

Does it infect my system?

Does it spy on my activities?

From Miles' sticky thread I know once you unstall the game you also unstall all of DRM which, from what I can make out, is not the case with other games.

[Wakers]

The radiohead model worked because they were already a massive act and they got 100% of the royalties made. VERY few working artists can say that. The usual model of record label still stands. And the fact remains that even with these few people supposedly making it with no outside help the vast majority of artists still require the backing of a record label in promotion and distribution to make a reasonable living from music.

No, the Radiohead model worked because people liked the music. It's the same for Trent Reznor, the bottom line is - if you make good quality products, you will be rewarded for it because there are more people out there that pay for quality than steal it!

If you make crap that is restricted/buggy/flawed then it will be pirated more than it otherwise would be.

[TheOriginalJez]

That is not the point! We are paying for this game so why should we be limited in anyway? No matter how crap your PC maybe that is not the talking point!

Why should you? Who gave you this divine right to use someone elses work as you please without their say? until they **** on the berne convention you can like it or lump it - how the copyright holder wants the work used (so long as in legal ways) is how it has to be used by the person who buys the license, and people without a license have no right to use it at all.

[fromthemachine]

I'm also in support of copyright law. I just abhor the ******** ways that companies go about trying to enforce it.

+1

I don't think companies should be allowed to drift into law enforcement. There are entire branches of government to deal with that.

But to play devil's advocate...how is this any different than paying for television broadcasts? You certainly don't own the program you watch.

[digsy11]

That is not the point! We are paying for this game so why should we be limited in anyway? No matter how crap your PC maybe that is not the talking point!

Again I'll ask you the question..If you only install the game once you're not limited, so how many times do you install a version of FM?

[Wakers]

But you obviously know more about this than me so I'm intrigued to know what the ''big picture is''

Does it infect my system?

Does it spy on my activities?

From Miles' sticky thread I know once you unstall the game you also unstall all of DRM which, from what I can make out, is not the case with other games.

It restricts what you can do with something you've paid for while not making any attempt to restrict those that have stolen it. If you can't see what's wrong with that, then I can't help you.

[TheOriginalJez]

No, the Radiohead model worked because people liked the music. It's the same for Trent Reznor, the bottom line is - if you make good quality products, you will be rewarded for it because there are more people out there that pay for quality than steal it!

If you make crap that is restricted/buggy/flawed then it will be pirated more than it otherwise would be.

You can't sell what people don't know about. Most people need a LOT of expensive promotion to live from their music and for that they need financial backing, ie a record company. Trent Reznor and Radiohead have MASSIVE followings. They can afford for only 20% of their fanbase to pay if they get 100% of the royalties. Not many people can.

[Wakers]

Why should you? Who gave you this divine right to use someone elses work as you please without their say? until they **** on the berne convention you can like it or lump it - how the copyright holder wants the work used (so long as in legal ways) is how it has to be used by the person who buys the license, and people without a license have no right to use it at all.

What gives us the right to buy computer software and use it as such? Are you seriously asking that question?

[digsy11]

It restricts what you can do with something you've paid for while not making any attempt to restrict those that have stolen it. If you can't see what's wrong with that, then I can't help you.

lol Mate it wqon't restrict me anyway whatsoever.You can not say that to me as you have absolutely no idea how I use my game.

As i said I only install it twice at max.Having played FM from it's first incarnation I know this much,so, apart from restricting me (which it won't) maybe you can help me on the other negatives of this system.

[MaidenMadness]

I have done, at length.

My personal belief is that the system we are using treats legitimate paying customers much better than any of the systems that we have used in the past for copy protection.

As to whether it has an effect on piracy or not, neither you, nor I, can answer the question yet of whether or when Football Manager 2009 will be pirated compared to previous releases.

The people who know more about this side of things than me, and know more about the various systems our there, and the one that we are using this year, believe that it will have an effect. We can only really revisit that point when we know the answer to it with regards to this system, and this game.

if i may offer my two cents.

there's no such things as a perfect security. every game ever made was pirated regardless of how revolutionary and ground breaking the security was. i am 100% certain that fm09 will be pirated as well. people who usually pirate games will pirate it this year as well, and imo the only possible effect fm's new drm will have is that it will make some people who usually pay for games to pirate this one. you may go to great lengths explaining how your system treats users better, how its different than spore system and such but not a lot of people will actually bother reading that. there is a bigger percentage of people that have/will just hear the maximum 5 installs limit and they'll get ****ed off.

it is my belief that the strategy of drm in general is a complete failure and the fact that number of downloads pirated versions of movies, games and music get is rising as time goes on only confirms this. i mean as it was mentioned spore was the most pirated game in the history despite the strictest drm ever made. pushing the drm strategy anymore makes no sense to me. i know that companies invest a lot of money in creating of the games and as such want to make sure they get their investment back, in which piracy is more hurting than it is helping (yes piracy does help to an extent. cause its free more people will try it out and perhaps some of them will turn into real fans of the series and will start paying for their copies sometime in the future), but facts show that drm is cleary shooting yourself in the foot and that different approach is needed.

dunno if you have been following this, but there was this guy recently some indie game maker who tried a different approach and tried talking to people who pirate his games to see the reasons why they do it and to see if he can do anything to fix the problems reported by pirates. much to his surprise he found out that only a minority said they pirate games for the money factor and he was surprised with the results.

how its working out i dunno and his way may not be a perfect solution but it does serve as a possible different strategy to the one which so far has been hugely unsuccessful.

[Wakers]

You can't sell what people don't know about. Most people need a LOT of expensive promotion to live from their music and for that they need financial backing, ie a record company. Trent Reznor and Radiohead have MASSIVE followings. They can afford for only 20% of their fanbase to pay if they get 100% of the royalties. Not many people can.

and now you're just being downright silly. Why did these people gain support in the first place? Because they're good at what they do.

Why have gaming profits gone down recently, particularly in the PC market?

Look at the games around at the moment - Nearly all are a sequel or copy of some other idea.

Most games that are hyped up last about 10 hours and then you don't play them again.

Far too many games are released in an unplayable state.

Metallica just released an album (September) that is screwed up with regards to the audio quality, yet it still went platinum in three weeks - because the music is good. If you make good stuff people will buy it! You have to get over this way of thinking that every illegal download is a lost sale.